Drag Racing Tech - If turbos are more efficient and make more power than a sc'er.....then.....???

Why don't Top Fuel dragsters and Funny Cars use turbos instead of sc'ers......

Just curious..........

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Lol, Im surprised someone thats been here as long as you is even asking this, are you just trolling?

The NHRA has very specific rules for TF, and a 14-71 is all thats allowed. Gale Banks did a Turbo Top Fueler in the 80s, but experienced issues with the drivetrain; I think he was running a Lenco. Theres no reason to try a Nitro Turbo combo because it wouldnt be allowed. Dont be surprised when the ADRL P/X guys start trying out nitro in a turbo car because theres more and more guys in Pro Xtreme that running turbos. Theres guys that currently do or have used turbos in the past on Top Fuel hydros. People used to think that mech injection wouldnt work with turbos, but Frankie Taylor has proven that wrong this year, as he is running a turbo with mech injection. The blowers that Top Fuel uses "only" flow around 3500-3800cfm or so IIRC. That can easily be accomplished with some big twin turbos nowadays. Without the nitro, I imagine a top fueler would make around 2500 to 3000hp, theres plenty of turbo cars that have surpassed that by quite a bit. Contrary to popular belief, nitro actually burns fairly cool. The problem is there is 8000hp of nitro/air coming out of the exhaust, which would require a big hotside. It is not impossible though, and if someone could tune it right a turbo T/F would make alot more power than the current ones, no doubt. Its just that not very many people have tried and theres no real reason to. If they made it legal though, I dont doubt that it could definitely work.

And yes, turbos do make more power when similarly sized on similar boost. Its basic science, superchargers are driven off the crank and sap away a relatively large amount of power. Turbos are driven off the exhaust and dont have nearly the same amount of parasitic losses.

The NHRA just doesnt want to see advances and would rather stay with 50 year old technology. Ala making Pro Stock stay with carbs.

lol.....trolling.....no....

I just don't know anything really about the drag racing world......mainly because I'm not interested at all in 1/4 mile racing as I think its actually a bore. But I am about to start my GT55 408ci iron block build and I'm learning more and more about turbos and their capabilities.....goal is 1,200 RWHP through my 4L80E. We will easily do it.

So really then, to answer my question.....it boils down to NHRA rules, not capabilities of the turbos to make the same or more power......thats what I was wondering.

Seems like someone should start a new drag racing organization without that rule.....bye-bye NHRA........so the 1/4 mile drag world and the T/F guys can get out of the stone age and make some real sick machines.

Thanks.

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The fuel class's have been around for 50+ years now, and they have done pretty well with the blown & injected combinations.
There is not enough money in our world for anyone with a brain to even attempt a new class or series just for turbo's nitro combination.
Now I would love to see some rich guy do it, and I will be the 1st in line to get in!!
Hell, we can barely get enough cars for the class' we have, plus the payouts suck,
so I wouldn't expect anyone to do anything but try it for shit's & giggles, if at all??
Plus how many qualified guys are just walking around with 10 million in their pocket to even attempt a project like this??

It would be frigging awesome, that's for sure, but I'm way too old to ever hope to see it happen??

Now, if someone has a bunch of money to throw around, I have an injected alcohol ProCharger car sitting in my shop.
For the right guy, I would gladly offer it up for testing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now is the perfect time, I'm getting new pistons, so it's all set to get the proper compression needed!!
All we need is the qualified tuner and a big fat check to JBL and Son Dragracing!!

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Turbos on a TF car would confuse Paul Page even more!

It all boils down to politics of NHRA. But if anyone ever watches a TF car make a pass you would swear there is no way to go any faster than that. They are truely amazing.

It all boils down to politics of NHRA. But if anyone ever watches a TF car make a pass you would swear there is no way to go any faster than that. They are truely amazing.

They are amazing for sure but I just hate the oil downs! It never used to bother me all to much but the last couple of years at nationals here were starting to get to me as a spectator. Sorry for the little rant back on topic lol.

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You must be young!!
In the last 10 years it has gotten 1000 times better.
Fines & penalties has really helped, plus the modern technology in diapers.
Hell in the old days every other damn pass was an explosion and giant fire!!

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Agreed. It has gotten A LOT better, which is a great thing. The Nitro cars are so fast now, NHRA is really there to keep things under control as much as possible. How much faster than 325 MPH do you need to go in 1,000 feet?

Speaking strictly as a spectator, the Nitro cars are a RUSH to watch in person!

How much faster than 325 MPH do you need to go in 1,000 feet? Beat me to it.

Beat me to it.

lol too fast is just fast enough :secret2:

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The fuel class's have been around for 50+ years now, and they have done pretty well with the blown & injected combinations.
There is not enough money in our world for anyone with a brain to even attempt a new class or series just for turbo's nitro combination.
Now I would love to see some rich guy do it, and I will be the 1st in line to get in!!
Hell, we can barely get enough cars for the class' we have, plus the payouts suck,
so I wouldn't expect anyone to do anything but try it for shit's & giggles, if at all??
Plus how many qualified guys are just walking around with 10 million in their pocket to even attempt a project like this??

It would be frigging awesome, that's for sure, but I'm way too old to ever hope to see it happen??

Now, if someone has a bunch of money to throw around, I have an injected alcohol ProCharger car sitting in my shop.
For the right guy, I would gladly offer it up for testing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now is the perfect time, I'm getting new pistons, so it's all set to get the proper compression needed!!
All we need is the qualified tuner and a big fat check to JBL and Son Dragracing!!

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Nailed it on the head.

Hell you have times that you can't even get a good LSx racing going due to tons of reasons.

Can one do it? I would think so, does someone want to blow money to find out. Not likely.

lets try to break the sound barrier in 1000 ft, shall we?

lets try to break the sound barrier in 1000 ft, shall we?

its not like a car hasnt gone 750+mph...:devil:

its not like a car hasnt gone 750+mph...:devil:

oh i know, i was actually being kinda serious...

Top fuel already makes more power than they can use. Making more power than what they have now is kind of pointless. I doubt there are any current turbo's that will hold up to the violent nature of nitro.

Exactly where does it say Turbos make more power in a top fuel engine? Try to imagine burning Nitro going into a turbo:)

Al 95 Z28

Exactly where does it say Turbos make more power in a top fuel engine? Try to imagine burning Nitro going into a turbo:)

Al 95 Z28

"Nitromethane has a laminar combustion velocity of approx. 0.5 m/s, somewhat higher than gasoline, thus making it suitable for high speed engines. It also has a somewhat higher flame temperature of about 2,400 °C (4,350 °F). The high heat of vaporization of 0.56 MJ/kg together with the high fuel flow provides significant cooling of the incoming charge (about twice that of methanol), resulting in reasonably low temperatures"

so not sure exactly what this means for a turbo application but i don't think it would be impossible. i mean pretty much everything on a top fuel motor has to be special made for that application anyways, so a turbo would be no exception. i think the biggest hurdle would be the extreme RPM and pressures associated with these motors.

great read as always. this question gets asked every once in a while and i always learn something new.

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Didn't think of the exhaust issue??
I wonder what would happen to a standard turbo with that much pressure, heat, going through??

Nitro engines are low RPM so I wonder if moving the turbos back would help them survive??
It's not like you would need them right on top of the engine to get the force needed to spin them??
They do need a lot of air, so the expert engineers would have to calculate that part.

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subscribed :drive: :corn:

With the issues of getting the cars stopped ( reason for 1000 feet vs 1320) I do t see the need, or desire of any of the teams to try to develop more power, as stated they already slip the clutch for 600 feet to get the car to hook up and go down the track

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Exactly, at this point as most of the experts agree, except the bosses at nhra,
they need to take away a big chunk of power.
They need to get back to 1320', and that means a combo that runs ~4.90's & 300-305.
That gives them several years to run before they need another "adjustment".
For whatever damn reason, nhra would rather they only race part way??
Then again, they are the genius' that decided to copy some stupid roundy round playoffs,
so the real season champion isn't always the actual season champion!!!


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The chase crap that nhra does, is the dumbest thing that they have EVER done

It makes it interesting to watch at the end. 1000' (sucks) with 10 decent cars (which is pushing it) and the season being over 4-5 races before the end would suck to watch.

The chase crap that nhra does, is the dumbest thing that they have EVER done

its dumber that they "temporarily" went to 1000' races. medllin and koletta didnt die because of lack of room.

It makes it interesting to watch at the end. 1000' (sucks) with 10 decent cars (which is pushing it) and the season being over 4-5 races before the end would suck to watch.


You're missing the point.
A real racecar driver understands what a SEASON champion means.
I don't give a damn what the points are when I watch.
I watch to see who wins the event.
Yes it's cool to see the fight for the points going down to the last round,
and when it happens awesome.
I also understand what it means to have something you earned taken from you because of a fluke of luck or timing!!!
Dragracing already has a playoffs system, it's called win the round or go home!!!
Individual sports do not need playoffs.
I care more about winning a round, then I do about points, both racing & watching!!

Does it suck to watch the 1st 3-5 events where the points change every round??
Where a guy can go from 12th to 1st in one event??

To each their own, but we are dragracers, and a real race is 1/4 mile,
especially the professionals in NHRA.

For the record, I just watched the complete ADRL event.
Now that sucked.
1st time I watched, and it was frigging boring as hell.
Yes it was better then nothing, but what about driving around someone at the big end.
What about the pedelfests??

I didn't like it!!

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You're missing the point.
A real racecar driver understands what a SEASON champion means.
I don't give a damn what the points are when I watch.
I watch to see who wins the event.
Yes it's cool to see the fight for the points going down to the last round,
and when it happens awesome.
I also understand what it means to have something you earned taken from you because of a fluke of luck or timing!!!
Dragracing already has a playoffs system, it's called win the round or go home!!!
Individual sports do not need playoffs.
I care more about winning a round, then I do about points, both racing & watching!!

Does it suck to watch the 1st 3-5 events where the points change every round??
Where a guy can go from 12th to 1st in one event??

To each their own, but we are dragracers, and a real race is 1/4 mile,
especially the professionals in NHRA.

For the record, I just watched the complete ADRL event.
Now that sucked.
1st time I watched, and it was frigging boring as hell.
Yes it was better then nothing, but what about driving around someone at the big end.
What about the pedelfests??

I didn't like it!!

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theres a reason why ADRL will never be as big as the NHRA or what the IHRA was before the recession. THEN they went and alienated one of THE best classes in drag racing.

Dont need turbos in t/f. Would love to see a engine larger than 500 CI. What if they build a montain motor of a top fuel engine? Also I didnt think I would like 1/8 mile ADRL but It was pretty awesome to me. To watch some 3.6x runs a 195+mph runs was cool as hell. I would rather go to ADRL then NHRA.

Dont need turbos in t/f. Would love to see a engine larger than 500 CI. What if they build a montain motor of a top fuel engine? Also I didnt think I would like 1/8 mile ADRL but It was pretty awesome to me. To watch some 3.6x runs a 195+mph runs was cool as hell. I would rather go to ADRL then NHRA.

IHRA has a class that has a lot of potential. would be great if it caught on. its called "Pro Fuel". basically... think top fuel without the blower and 100% nitromethane. its pretty cool and fun to watch :). oh, and they run the ENTIRE 1320

ZMG, id be willing to bet that a mountain motor prostock engine modified (but kept na) for nitro would be tits.

The other issue with the stupid chase crap, is that a real racer understands every event, every round win should hold equal value, resetting it for 1/2 the field at the end, and telling the guy in #11 that even if he wins everything he can't be champ is crap, all that's going to do is make the sponsors tell the teams if you aren't in the championship hunt once it's restarted, we cut your funding to minimum so you can just show up.... Bad for the sport all around. Really dumb thing to do.... I'd rather see the championship decided4 races early then have this crap they did be the case. 1320 needs to come back too, easy solution to that, is drop 50 cubic inch off the motor, limit them to 1 magneto, drop the blower size to a 1261, or limit the fuel pump size/ flow and pressure, any one of those would effectively slow them down

IHRA has a class that has a lot of potential. would be great if it caught on. its called "Pro Fuel". basically... think top fuel without the blower and 100% nitromethane. its pretty cool and fun to watch :). oh, and they run the ENTIRE 1320

Ever watch Top Alcohol? Injected N/A nitromethane vs Blown Alcohol in the same class.

Not everyone that watches drag racing are REAL drag racers. Ever think NHRA is trying to look for a bigger crowd? I agree 1320 needs to come back at any costs though.

Why do they need to bring back 1320 ft for Top Fuel? They are running them harder to 1000 ft than they used to, cause they used to blow up a lot in the last 300 ft. I saw a 325 MPH pass Sunday!

You cant tell the difference of 320 ft on TV, 8000 HP still looks (and sounds) like 8000 HP.

Al

You cant tell the difference of 320 ft on TV, 8000 HP still looks (and sounds) like 8000 HP.

Al

Anybody whos REALLY into drag racing will know.....which would be/should be everybody watching. :drive: :corn:

Theres no reason at all one couldnt make a turbo live heathily on a T/F engine. It would definitely be made of some exotic materials; inconel exhaust turbine, billet housings/compressor, etc. It may even take a much bigger hotside, or some creative thinking: monster wastegates constantly venting exhaust so there is just enough to spool, or hell just running 1 or 2 of the headers into the turbo per cylinder bank. IMO, they should really consider taking the "HR" out of NHRA because, atleast in their premiere class(top fuel), there is really not a whole lot of hot rodding going on. You are forced into running a BAE, KB Stg 16, AJ TFX, etc and you are forced into running a very specific blower, etc nearly everything is regulated to the nth degree. Hell, Id just like to see a T/F car from one of the top 5 teams with pretty much same everything except with a PSI C-rotor twin screw or a big Whipple and the appropriate fuel flow changes make a full 1/4 pass, that would be nasty.

NHRA T/F is getting like Nascar on a drag strip, it costs a shitload to run and every combination is very similar, all cookie cutter cars. If only there was room for some real innovation, maybe there would already be a combo that the "almost" average income guy could afford to run every now and then, something much more reliable, way stronger, and have the capability to make winning power.

Sadly, this falls on deaf ears:

http://www.dragracingonline.com/technical/vii_5-sainty-1.html

But what do I know, Im not a T/F driver or crew chief, and dont hold any power in NHRA.

I rest my case.

Anybody whos REALLY into drag raccing will know.....which would be/should be everybody watching. :drive: :corn:

Anyone who is really into drag racing would realize that hitting 325+ in only 1000 ft means the cars are making more HP than they used to when they ran the whole 1320 ft. They are able to get away with running them harder cause they only have to stay together for 3.8 seconds VS 4.5 seconds for the whole 1320.

It is a moot point anyway, they are not changing back.

Al

Anyone who is really into drag racing would realize that hitting 325+ in only 1000 ft means the cars are making more HP than they used to when they ran the whole 1320 ft. They are able to get away with running them harder cause they only have to stay together for 3.8 seconds VS 4.5 seconds for the whole 1320.

It is a moot point anyway, they are not changing back.

Al

Exactly.
Even on my junk, I was warned with blown alcohol, there is more damage done the last 300-400' of a 1/4 mile by a wide margin.
That's why I have 2 tune ups.
1750-1800 HP for 1/4 mile, and 2000+ HP for 1/8 mile.

Remember, those are the best, smartest, riches guys around our sport.
They definitely have it figured out, that's why they need to be forced to slow down, so we get our 1/4 mile back!!!
Those things were always on a short fuse, now even more so!!
Plus now that diapers and blower bags etc are so strong, they can get after it
and we don't even realize they blew sometimes until you see the number were off??


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Exactly.
Even on my junk, I was warned with blown alcohol, there is more damage done the last 300-400' of a 1/4 mile by a wide margin.
That's why I have 2 tune ups.
1750-1800 HP for 1/4 mile, and 2000+ HP for 1/8 mile.

Remember, those are the best, smartest, riches guys around our sport.
They definitely have it figured out, that's why they need to be forced to slow down, so we get our 1/4 mile back!!!
Those things were always on a short fuse, now even more so!!
Plus now that diapers and blower bags etc are so strong, they can get after it
and we don't even realize they blew sometimes until you see the number were off??



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May I ask what your combo is? But yeah, I want to see the 1/4 come back, but as said theyre trapping pretty much just as high as they used to. Id really like to see rule changes put in place that would allow for engines like the one above designed specifically for Top Fuel that have the capability to make a full 1/4mi pass confidently each and every time without problems.

Does anyone have the incrementals of the 337mph record trap in the 1/4 that I think Schumacher or Kalitta ran? Compared to the highest recorded trap in 1000ft so far(Im guessing 325 as said)?

325 MPH is what I saw on one random pass from Sunday. I hardly ever watch it, so I cant imagine they have not gone faster than that. I would imagine it is 340+ easy.

I am sure in person you can tell the difference in 1/4 VS 1000 ft, but on TV it is 7/10 of a second difference. I cant tell!

Al

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It's been so long, I bet it would be real hard to find a results page for those old 1/4 mile pass'??
IIRC, they were 270-275ish mph at the 660', which is still frigging amazing
and more then any other car has even done in the 1/4 so far!! (they are getting close)


Mine is a 2 stage build.
The 1st combo is a 557", brodix heads, dart big M, single throttle body, 16 injectors, F3R, belt drive,
11-1, MSD 8 plus with Power Grid controller piggy backed.
This is what we are learning on and should be fairly low boost, low maintenance for some 1/4 mile racing.

The next stage will be a 540" with either a 14 1/2* Big Chief type head, or a solid casting blower head.
It depends on if we destroy the current water heads when the boost get's dialed up??
This is when we will think about going max boost and will probably have a big power 1/8 mile tune up.
I was thinking about going for a 4.19 1/8 mile combo??
For about a second and a half I was thinking about trying for a 3.99, but that little bit would be very expensive.
I think 4.20's will be very do able, even at my budget level??
I do have a decent car, it's older, but has been pretty damn fast on N2O, and handled 1950 HP fine.

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People don't understand what 1900 hp can do... it's a serious power level. With what you're putting together I wouldn't be surprised to see it end up in the 2400 hp range when it's all said and done. Any reason you are doing the belt drive and not a gear drive? Alot less issues with the gear drive from everyone I know that has gone to one from the traditional belt fwiw.

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I bought it like this, and he did not like gear drives for whatever reason??
Also his chassis builder prefers belt drive, so the 2 guys helping me prefer a belt,
so I went with belt not to rock the boat.
Which is great for me, more money for other stuff.
Plus they have never lost a belt in many many years, but they also have a different way they mount the blower.
They use a double mount, they mount it from the rear and from the front.

Remember I know nothing about ProChargers, and I'm getting 100 opinions on everything,
so at a certain point you make a decision and live with it.

I've also been told by a few guys I will have to try and not make 1750 HP.
Big F3R, 557" and alcohol is definitely going to be a handful??
So I have a feeling, I'm going to need a bigger pulley to slow it down while we learn!!
He ran it at 42 lbs, I definitely don't need or want that!!


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