Generation IV External Engine - "UPDATE"!Well, well, WTF Happened Here!??

Went to start my car yesterday and heard this terrible noise with grinding. Took the starter out this morning to see what was going on. Visions of a broken flexplate or even broken block were keeping me awake all night! This is what i found....
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh218/formula502003/119_0001.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh218/formula502003/119_0002.jpg

I'm hoping it's not a start of problems to come. I'm wondering if my higher compression is doing this or just a casting issue in the case!?? :bang:

Hard to say. Have you tried to crank the motor by hand just to make sure it turns freely? I would also check the gear teeth on the flexplate as well.

What is your comp? I am running 12.1:1 comp and have never had this issue. I would look over your flexplate first. Def has a clean/fresh break in the starter housing.

Seen it many times... Typically bolts loosened up an it cracked it.

Seen it many times... Typically bolts loosened up an it cracked it.

That was going to be my guess, but I did not want to appear to be an a55 and ask whether or not the other starter bolt was still tight after it broke.

Yep....^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hard to say. Have you tried to crank the motor by hand just to make sure it turns freely? I would also check the gear teeth on the flexplate as well.

Flexplate still looks good. I heard the noise earlier yesterday for a split second before a start. I was thinking the same thing about the loose bolt/bolts so that was the first thing i checked. Tight as a fake titty! Then later in the day i went to start it and the same noise was real bad and the grinding sound. I hope if i just change the case snout i'll be ok!? :confused:

What is your comp? I am running 12.1:1 comp and have never had this issue. I would look over your flexplate first. Def has a clean/fresh break in the starter housing.

I'm sitting at about 13:8....

Count your blessings and be happy it broke on the starter and not the mount on the block. Lpl

Count your blessings and be happy it broke on the starter and not the mount on the block. Lpl

You got that right! I just want to make sure were not having this every other weekend:bomb:

Provided nothing else is wrong, you may want to get a truck starter. they use the same length bolts, not one short/one long. I bought a new bosch starter from Rock Auto not too long ago, and it came with another bolt.

Provided nothing else is wrong, you may want to get a truck starter. they use the same length bolts, not one short/one long. I bought a new bosch starter from Rock Auto not too long ago, and it came with another bolt.

I was thinking about this but not sure a truck one is any stronger?

I was thinking about this but not sure a truck one is any stronger?

It should be stronger because it won't have the thin ear where yours broke.

Thank God your block didn't break!

Yes, you're lucky you didn't break the block mount........I did. Luckily a welder was able to come over and fix it.

Do yourself a favor and get a truck starter with the two longer bolts.

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I found another F-Body case so i'm just going to replace the snout. I think i should be fine. Crossin' my fingers...

Welp, switched out the case and checked everything over. Started and restarted it a handfull of times and everything seems normal? Back in business!

truck starter FTW!!!!

You guessed it! Snapped f-body starter #2's case also!!?? F$#@%! I don't know if i should skip a truck starter all together and get an MSD billet one or what? 2 in a row without braking the block has me a little worried. The truck case will probably not give at all. I've checked everything and all looks aok...:confused:

You guessed it! Snapped f-body starter #2's case also!!?? F$#@%! I don't know if i should skip a truck starter all together and get an MSD billet one or what? 2 in a row without braking the block has me a little worried. The truck case will probably not give at all. I've checked everything and all looks aok...:confused:

Yea, that would worry me too. But if it started a bunch of times than there's nothing internally causing the rotating assembly to get stuck. Maybe just two unlucky cases cracking.

How is the MSD starter going to be any different though?

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I would verify every single tooth on the flywheel is in good shape, if that looks ok I would toss that particular starter in the recycle bin and get the truck starter with the 2 long bolts, my 2006 GTO LS2 starter also uses 2 long bolts.

I think GM knew there were issues with the 1 long and 1 short starter noses hence the reason they went with the 2 long bolt style starter noses. There are quite a few threads on here of where people break a chunk out of the block instead of the starter nose, I think it's mainly on the aluminum blocks though. I think you are playing with fire, the next time you may not be as lucky and will end up with a piece of the engine block in your hands instead of a piece of the starter nose.

I would verify every single tooth on the flywheel is in good shape, if that looks ok I would toss that particular starter in the recycle bin and get the truck starter with the 2 long bolts, my 2006 GTO LS2 starter also uses 2 long bolts.

I think GM knew there were issues with the 1 long and 1 short starter noses hence the reason they went with the 2 long bolt style starter noses. There are quite a few threads on here of where people break a chunk out of the block instead of the starter nose, I think it's mainly on the aluminum blocks though. I think you are playing with fire, the next time you may not be as lucky and will end up with a piece of the engine block in your hands instead of a piece of the starter nose.
I don't think it's a GM issue with the long and short bolts. They have been making that style of starter for many, many years. I have used the long/short style on high compression engines many times without a problem. I think it's a case of two bad starters.

Well he says he's at 13.8 on compression that is up there, and as I said in my post above if everything looks fine on the flexplate, I would toss the starter in the recycle bin and try a whole different starter and if I am going to replace the starter, might as well replace it with the better 2 long bolts style.

If I read his posts correctly he only replaced the starter snout and continued to use the same starter body, maybe it's just me but I wouldn't trust anything on that particular starter anymore, 2 broken snouts? And no broken block yet? I just wouldn't take a chance like that using the same starter.

2 bullets dodged there. I think I would start from scratch on that one.

I am at a total loss for words right now. I put a new truck starter in after checking EVERY single tooth on the flexplate. I checked for loose bolts, watched flexplate runout, ect. ect. Went to fire the thing and heard the dreaded noise and went OH F%$#@! I figured for sure i had a broken block this time. I went under and checked the starter and all seemed super tight!?? Took out the starter and holy sheet, the snout broke clean off and fell inside the bellhousing. :confused::(:(

2 bullets dodged there. I think I would start from scratch on that one.

Bullet number 3! I think the next time it will be in the head:bigun2:

I am at a total loss for words right now. I put a new truck starter in after checking EVERY single tooth on the flexplate. I checked for loose bolts, watched flexplate runout, ect. ect. Went to fire the thing and heard the dreaded noise and went OH F%$#@! I figured for sure i had a broken block this time. I went under and checked the starter and all seemed super tight!?? Took out the starter and holy sheet, the snout broke clean off and fell inside the bellhousing. :confused::(:(

damn man that sucks....

damn man that sucks....

Your tellin' me.........

I am at a total loss for words right now. I put a new truck starter in after checking EVERY single tooth on the flexplate. I checked for loose bolts, watched flexplate runout, ect. ect. Went to fire the thing and heard the dreaded noise and went OH F%$#@! I figured for sure i had a broken block this time. I went under and checked the starter and all seemed super tight!?? Took out the starter and holy sheet, the snout broke clean off and fell inside the bellhousing. :confused::(:(

Clearly something else is causing the problem other than the starter itself. I would start with the flexplate and make sure it's torqued to spec. Almost sounds like it's warped (if that's possible) and jamming into the starter teeth. Remove the starter and crank the engine by hand and watch the flexplate to see if it rotates freely without binding.

Where is your ignition timing at? Too much timing will break a starter every time. Had a friend break 3 in a row, due to too much timing. He was at 15:1 compression and really pushing the timing to the edge. He backed the timing down a fudge, and he's been good to go for a couple years now.

Clearly something else is causing the problem other than the starter itself. I would start with the flexplate and make sure it's torqued to spec. Almost sounds like it's warped (if that's possible) and jamming into the starter teeth. Remove the starter and crank the engine by hand and watch the flexplate to see if it rotates freely without binding.

As i already stated above, i have checked and rechecked the flexplate and turned the engine over by hand numerous times and everything looks great. A little tough to turn because of the compression but....

Where is your ignition timing at? Too much timing will break a starter every time. Had a friend break 3 in a row, due to too much timing. He was at 15:1 compression and really pushing the timing to the edge. He backed the timing down a fudge, and he's been good to go for a couple years now.

Me and a few knowledgable people have been discussing timing and other things. Nothing has changed in the tune at all. I know the fuel might not be quite right because i mixed quite a few different fuels for it sitting over the winter. We thought maybe for some reason the motor might be kicking back like a diesel before igniting, then when that happens and the starter drive is engaged it has to take out the weakest point!?? I sure would like to know though because i think i will hold off on number 4...... :mad:

Could the flexplate possibly be cracked at the crank mounting bolts?

Could the flexplate possibly be cracked at the crank mounting bolts?

Maybe, but when i turn it over by the flexplate it seems very solid. It's a TCI SFI by the way....

Subscribed for the Mystery. best of luck!

Maybe, but when i turn it over by the flexplate it seems very solid. It's a TCI SFI by the way....There is something strange going on with this motor. I would say to try an aftermarket starter but it's breaking stock starters that quick somethings definatly wrong. If an aftermarket starter didn't break, the block might give it up.

Take the trans out and check the runout on the flexplate. Also check the flexplate for any damage. If the flexplate checks out then I would get a billet starter.

If you broke that truck starter with the two longer bolts, something inside is hanging the rotating assembly up.

Maybe take out all 8 spark plugs and see if it turns over easily. Just to see if when the starter hits the flywheel its not causing the binding. If it binds with no compression on it, its the flywheel.

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I would take the trans out and take a look at that flywheel. I know its a pain, but its better than the block being broke off. Also, that SFI shit doesn't carry much weight to it. I had a Hayes SFI flexplate shipped to me and put it on the car and it vibrated violently. I took it off the car and it was warped. I went and got another one and the same damn thing. I ended up putting the stocker back on and havent had any trouble since.

I really don't think it's the flexplate guys but i don't know whats left. I think that was a great idea about pulling all the plugs though and trying it. I will probably try that first....

While the plugs are out, disconnect the fuel and try cranking it over while you are at it.

But, like I said... be SURE it won't spray fuel out in the process, first. Ask how I know... try a fire at Record Inspection at the Salt Flats one time.

As reiterated here, something is definitely wrong and it makes no sense to continue until you find it. Trust me, it's better to tear down an otherwise intact engine now than assume/hope... and replace it later, and maybe not too much later.

All the best and looking forward to reading what you find..

So far i have just walked away from this thing for awhile. I feel like i had my 3 strikes already and i am not willing to try that next one just yet :bomb:

It,s hydro locking. The cyl. is filling up with water after its been sitting for awhile. The cyl. is then cleaning out after you get it started.

It,s hydro locking. The cyl. is filling up with water after its been sitting for awhile. The cyl. is then cleaning out after you get it started.

You know i was totally thinking that at first but after checking coolant level and what my oil looks like i really don't think this is the case. Worth checking into deeper though!?? Anythings possible at this point:confused:

That's a good possibility, should be easy to check, install a known good starter and remove all of the spark plugs and disable the ignition and fuel supply and crank it and see if a cylinder is spitting out fuel or water? I would probably still verify all of the flex plate bolts and mounting surface is in good shape with no cracks around the flex plate.

A leaking fuel injector can cause the same thing.
OR
Is the car stored in a garage? I have seen rain water leaking in down past the intake too, causing hydrolock.

I'm going to pull the plugs today and see what's going on. First i will pressurize the coolant system to see if anythings amiss...

Buy yourself a borescope. They are worth their weight in gold. Still sounds like an ignition timing thing to me...usually a hydrolocked engine will go ahead and start as it pitches a rod. Does this engine even try to fire, or does the starter break before it gets to that point?

After reading through this whole thread I thought to myself water has to be getting into a cylinder somehow. Condensation, rain (if stored outside) or cooling. My buddy's vette broke the block where the starter is connected due to water getting into the intake and filling a cylinder.

Sounds like you need to perform a battery of tests. Cooling system is a good start. Sounds like a nightmare. Good luck.

Buy yourself a borescope. They are worth their weight in gold. Still sounds like an ignition timing thing to me...usually a hydrolocked engine will go ahead and start as it pitches a rod. Does this engine even try to fire, or does the starter break before it gets to that point?
Car has actually started about 5 or 6 times in a row and ran fine on the first 2 starters. Then on the third one it instantly took off the cone as i tried to start it.

After reading through this whole thread I thought to myself water has to be getting into a cylinder somehow. Condensation, rain (if stored outside) or cooling. My buddy's vette broke the block where the starter is connected due to water getting into the intake and filling a cylinder.

Sounds like you need to perform a battery of tests. Cooling system is a good start. Sounds like a nightmare. Good luck.

All the plugs are pulled and fuel and spark have been disconnected. 4th starter was put in and the engine cranked over consistantly and for quite a while a handfull of times. All the plugs looked the same and no sign of coolant, or taste for that matter, on any of the plugs. All dry around each hole. I am totally scratching my head on this one. Starting to think something with timing or spark now too :confused:

Oh ya, i also put my pressure tester on the radiator at about 15 psi and it's held rock solid there for over an hour....

All the plugs are pulled and fuel and spark have been disconnected. 4th starter was put in and the engine cranked over consistantly and for quite a while a handfull of times. All the plugs looked the same and no sign of coolant, or taste for that matter, on any of the plugs. All dry around each hole. I am totally scratching my head on this one. Starting to think something with timing or spark now too :confused:

That sounds right if your not hydroing the cyl. Maybe misfiring a cyl. How about a bad exhaust valve spring, lifter , or rocker not letting the mixture exit.
You stated that it turns over easy by hand and with the plugs pulled. So no they should be ok.

When the car starts does it fire up instantly like a stock engine does? Mine still does. If so cam and crank sensor are ok. How about timing? Race cars retard the timing to start. Too much advance in your programing ?

I've had good luck with Powermaster starters. They have a nice billet mounting block , and are clockable etc.

Ok, just went in and checked my timing tables in my tune. Way down low at 400 RPMs the timing is still around 24 degrees. Maybe if i lower this area down to 4-8 degrees it will help me?

Ok, only thing found so far was a loose ground cable to chassis. Could this do it!!??? :judge:

Well all i did was tighten my ground to chassis nut and backed the timing off on startup and the thing works like a champ now. I probably started and restarted it 50 times not to mention let it idle up to temp and tried it again!? All i can figure is the loose ground and the battery being in the back, not to mention high compession was just compounding everything. I'm crossing my fingers i got it after starter number 4 :usa:

Well all i did was tighten my ground to chassis nut and backed the timing off on startup and the thing works like a champ now. I probably started and restarted it 50 times not to mention let it idle up to temp and tried it again!? All i can figure is the loose ground and the battery being in the back, not to mention high compession was just compounding everything. I'm crossing my fingers i got it after starter number 4 :usa:

Sounds like you fixed it.. Loose ground would interrupt the stater revolution and then cause it to try again momentarily and with that much compression something is gonna break.

Sounds like you fixed it.. Loose ground would interrupt the stater revolution and then cause it to try again momentarily and with that much compression something is gonna break.

Do we all really feel that the loose ground was causing the issue? I still am very skeptical....

Do we all really feel that the loose ground was causing the issue? I still am very skeptical....

I have had the loose ground be an issue with my 67. It would turn over then quit for a split second and engage again. Being low compression engine, it just shined up the flywheel teeth. I felt pretty stupid afterward's. I musta shimmed that starter a 100 times..

Looks like you got it. I also had a bad ground on my old LT1 396. That was only a 10.5 to 1 compression combo. It still caused some funky start issues. I could not imagine now with the 13.5 comp (similar combo to yours) and to much timing would do.... Aaaa kill starters maybe...:mad:

When you getting that to the track again?

Looks like you got it. I also had a bad ground on my old LT1 396. That was only a 10.5 to 1 compression combo. It still caused some funky start issues. I could not imagine now with the 13.5 comp (similar combo to yours) and to much timing would do.... Aaaa kill starters maybe...:mad:

When you getting that to the track again?

Soon, very soon! ;)

Guess what!? Yep, starter number 4 is toast! I have checked everything there is to check. Alot of guys are trying to tell me to run a billet starter but i know better, it will take out my block for sure then. I just walked away from it for awhile to calm down a little and maybe get some new ideas :confused:

Do we all really feel that the loose ground was causing the issue? I still am very skeptical....

I am pretty sure you didn't have that warm fuzzy feeling that the problem was that easily solved by a loose ground or by your timing tables, because it had run fine for a long time prior to the starter issues.

I didn't have a warm fuzzy feeling that it was fixed, but sometimes it is the little overlooked items that can cause big problems.

I agree on not getting a billet starter till you get this figured out, I am completely stumped as well, possibly the main thrust bearing is out causing to much end play on the crank, in turn damaging the starter when it is
moving back and forth???

I am pretty sure you didn't have that warm fuzzy feeling that the problem was that easily solved by a loose ground or by your timing tables, because it had run fine for a long time prior to the starter issues.

I didn't have a warm fuzzy feeling that it was fixed, but sometimes it is the little overlooked items that can cause big problems.

I agree on not getting a billet starter till you get this figured out, I am completely stumped as well, possibly the main thrust bearing is out causing to much end play on the crank, in turn damaging the starter when it is
moving back and forth???

Hey, that's a new and interesting thought!? I'm leaning toward something timing related now. I have done leak downs of the engine and fuel injectors so thats out. The flex plate is mint as far as i can see and everything is TIGHT for sure. Like stated above, i also was leary of the ground cable doing this but was crossing my fingers but i knew deep down that.........not it

Once running the engine sounds excellent and oil pressure is at 65 psi hot. I started and resatarted this thing a good 30+ times for sure and then WHAMO!

Possibly something electrical, as you stated it runs fine and your oil pressure looks great, probably ruling out thrust bearing issues. Possibly something in the ignition system causing you to lose 12v hot when it is starting then re-energizing causing it to fire or back fire? Something like a old Chevy ignition where the ignition points also had the wire coming from the starter solenoid?
Heck I'm lost and hope you can get this figured out without losing all of your hair.

mine broke the starter two weeks ago ,I have Roughly 12.1:1compression so i took two degrees out of the cranking table from its stock numbers and put in a MSD pro billet starter, No problems as of yet! I hope your problems get figured out!Just sharing my experience.

mine broke the starter two weeks ago ,I have Roughly 12.1:1compression so i took two degrees out of the cranking table from its stock numbers and put in a MSD pro billet starter, No problems as of yet! I hope your problems get figured out!Just sharing my experience.

I've taken my crank timing all the way down to 4 degrees and it still broke. It seemed like it took longer to break but i'm still worried. Alot of guys already told me to throw a billet on and be done but there's no turning back if that thing doesn't give and it breaks the block. Can we say FUBAR! :bomb:

i can say it FUBAR!!!!! i have nowhere near enough knowledge about this, but im in to learn more. SUBSCRIBED!!!

This happened to me aloooooooooooooong time ago, like the summer of 07. I had a 01 z28 with a MS3 cam and heads. I dont know what comp. i was at. I blew 2 starters and I was scratching my head. It was really starting to piss me off. I would replace one, and it fired right up and drove it about a week fine. Then, all of a sudden it did it again. So I replaced the starter again. then one day after a hard rain, I went to start my car and heard a seriously loud boom. I checked under my car, and there was oil and metal all over the place! I threw a rod through the oil pan!!!! Come to find out when my friend took off my heads, I had a blown head gasket that was leaking alittle coolant into the cylinder, I hope this helps, BTW, i didnt smell or see any coolant before this happened, and my car never over heated. sorry for the long post.... i hope you find it.

This happened to me aloooooooooooooong time ago, like the summer of 07. I had a 01 z28 with a MS3 cam and heads. I dont know what comp. i was at. I blew 2 starters and I was scratching my head. It was really starting to piss me off. I would replace one, and it fired right up and drove it about a week fine. Then, all of a sudden it did it again. So I replaced the starter again. then one day after a hard rain, I went to start my car and heard a seriously loud boom. I checked under my car, and there was oil and metal all over the place! I threw a rod through the oil pan!!!! Come to find out when my friend took off my heads, I had a blown head gasket that was leaking alittle coolant into the cylinder, I hope this helps, BTW, i didnt smell or see any coolant before this happened, and my car never over heated. sorry for the long post.... i hope you find it.

We had a similar problem. The head had a small pinhole and would fill up the one cyl. On start up it would clear out. It finally hydro'ed and broke the blocks ear of.

We had a similar problem. The head had a small pinhole and would fill up the one cyl. On start up it would clear out. It finally hydro'ed and broke the blocks ear of.

Wouldn't i see any sign of coolant leak on my plugs? As in looking different then one or the other? How about coolant loss(none as of yet) Also when the plugs were out and the engine was cranked continuously with cardboard in front of each hole, nothing. Waited a couple days and repeated above, nothing. No fuel or coolant. Honestly, i've tried everything other then pulling the heads or flexplate. Does a flexplate just mysteriously bend for no reason when the build has at least 1,000 miles!? Just not seeing it but still open to ideas at this point......

My best guess would be either a sticky valve guide, leaky injector, or coolant leak into a cylinder. Have you checked to see if there is any excessive metal in your oil? Sounds pretty frustrating. I would stay away from a billet starter for now if it were my car. I dont believe that is the real problem. Good luck

My best guess would be either a sticky valve guide, leaky injector, or coolant leak into a cylinder. Have you checked to see if there is any excessive metal in your oil? Sounds pretty frustrating. I would stay away from a billet starter for now if it were my car. I dont believe that is the real problem. Good luck

Oil looks normal. Funny you should say that about a sticky guide. I've also thought about a valvetrain issue since i did replace springs not too long ago and when the engine was done a 1,000 miles or so ago, the heads were all redone with new guides...

I wish I had insight to offer, but I'm subscribed to learn.

Best of luck!

Ok, it must be electrical is all i can figure. I have random codes now popping up. Started seeing bank 1 o2 sensor failure which is brand new. Now i am seeing multiple miss fire codes and crankshaft position sensor A failure! Thing runs like a top so it just can't be anything with these codes!??

I wish I had insight to offer, but I'm subscribed to learn.

Best of luck!

This is where I'm at.

My first thought was compression...but with only 4* that can't be it. Are you getting "kick back?"

This is where I'm at.

My first thought was compression...but with only 4* that can't be it. Are you getting "kick back?"

Kick back is what i assume it was and now thinking electrical it might make sense if it's not getting the right current or voltage to the system??

Kick back is what i assume it was and now thinking electrical it might make sense if it's not getting the right current or voltage to the system??

Thats where I would look ...if your cranking it and have a instant voltage drop and then its back that will blow that starter right off the block ... I had issues with a small block chevy that broke the block and had to weld studs in to it and then cracked/broke the starter check the cables did you change the battery ....... I could see if you had some coolant loss or the timming was way up but you checked and rechecked all of that I'm thinking start with the basics and check the cables and battery and grounds .....just my 2 cents

if your engine "kicked back" against the starter, it could've done that. had a customer the other day in a buick with a bad ignition module....he kept cranking. the compression kicked back, and snapped the starter.

Thats where I would look ...if your cranking it and have a instant voltage drop and then its back that will blow that starter right off the block ... I had issues with a small block chevy that broke the block and had to weld studs in to it and then cracked/broke the starter check the cables did you change the battery ....... I could see if you had some coolant loss or the timming was way up but you checked and rechecked all of that I'm thinking start with the basics and check the cables and battery and grounds .....just my 2 cents

Yes, in fact i just put a different lightweight battery in it a little while ago.

Yes, in fact i just put a different lightweight battery in it a little while ago.

I bet you need more amps than that one has

I bet you need more amps than that one has

It says it has 960 CA so i'm not sure what's going on??

It says it has 960 CA so i'm not sure what's going on??

Sometimes things dont do what they say ..... if you crank it and have a bad end on a cable or ground it should get hot

It says it has 960 CA so i'm not sure what's going on??

if your battery's in the trunk, you'll lose quite a bit of amperage coming up front. also, if you're still using side terminal, disconnect the battery, and look inside of both cable ends. corrosion has a nasty habit of forming inside the insulation, and i've had many many cases when it would prevent a car from even accepting a boost.

if your battery's in the trunk, you'll lose quite a bit of amperage coming up front. also, if you're still using side terminal, disconnect the battery, and look inside of both cable ends. corrosion has a nasty habit of forming inside the insulation, and i've had many many cases when it would prevent a car from even accepting a boost.

Yep, battery is in the back. I think i have it licked. The battery that i was using just must not had enough uhmph. Like stated above, i believe then the starter would drop out while cranking and then kickback out, in turn breaking the starter cases. The only thing weird is that i am getting multiple missfire codes now. The only thing changed was the timing tables lowered in my tune for startup. Could this cause this issue??:confused:

Yep, battery is in the back. I think i have it licked. The battery that i was using just must not had enough uhmph. Like stated above, i believe then the starter would drop out while cranking and then kickback out, in turn breaking the starter cases. The only thing weird is that i am getting multiple missfire codes now. The only thing changed was the timing tables lowered in my tune for startup. Could this cause this issue??:confused:

Did you get the cables and battery fixed it mat have just been spiking system with low voltage and that may have caused the other issues .... I get it up and running and see what happens and go from there

Did you get the cables and battery fixed it mat have just been spiking system with low voltage and that may have caused the other issues .... I get it up and running and see what happens and go from there

Yes, everythings fixed and back to normal besides the timing change on startup. Still have the multiple missfire code showing up......

Yes, everythings fixed and back to normal besides the timing change on startup. Still have the multiple missfire code showing up......

Maybe put the timming back where it was on start up ?

Maybe put the timming back where it was on start up ?

Ya, not sure why this would effect anything but that is my next move. Put my tune back to where it was and see what happens...

Ok, it must be electrical is all i can figure. I have random codes now popping up. Started seeing bank 1 o2 sensor failure which is brand new. Now i am seeing multiple miss fire codes and crankshaft position sensor A failure! Thing runs like a top so it just can't be anything with these codes!??

I would start checking these codes, I would start with "crankshaft A failure" check wiring, check signals, etc,etc

Buy any chance are these powered or grounded at the same point?

I would start checking these codes, I would start with "crankshaft A failure" check wiring, check signals, etc,etc

Buy any chance are these powered or grounded at the same point?

Crankshaft signal code went away. Now i am only stuck with the multiple miss fire code. Thing runs fine and doesn't seem to be missing a beat so i'm not sure what's going on yet. The battery power is coming from the same source and the grounds are grounded to death. I have 4 grounds in various places including the block. All are connected in different spots on the car so i am 99% sure it's not the ground wire/wires.

Headers and considerable cam overlap????

Headers and considerable cam overlap????

Oh, for sure. Just that it wasn't an issue before this mess with the starter so i am pretty sure it's not that...

Oh, for sure. Just that it wasn't an issue before this mess with the starter so i am pretty sure it's not that...

If you were having elec power problems something may have fried. Injector drivers or coil packs . Just a thought.. Damn you are having some bad lluck.

If you were having elec power problems something may have fried. Injector drivers or coil packs . Just a thought.. Damn you are having some bad lluck.

^^^^ Thats what I was thinking but just did'nt want to say it ...... run it down the road and see how it is

I say put the tune back to stock and run it awhile, see if that stops the starter from breaking...

I am assuming since you said the flexplate only has 1000 miles on it you recently had the transmission pulled away from the motor. I have seen the wiring harness that runs across the back of the engine fall down and get pinched in between the motor and transmission causing all kinds of issues.

I am assuming since you said the flexplate only has 1000 miles on it you recently had the transmission pulled away from the motor. I have seen the wiring harness that runs across the back of the engine fall down and get pinched in between the motor and transmission causing all kinds of issues. Ditto

No, no pinched wires. Tune is back to where it was but still comes up with the P0300 missfire code. The thing is not missing a beat so i am temted just to take this code out in the tune. Starter seems to be working good again 'knock on wood' Only time will tell i guess

No, no pinched wires. Tune is back to where it was but still comes up with the P0300 missfire code. The thing is not missing a beat so i am temted just to take this code out in the tune. Starter seems to be working good again 'knock on wood' Only time will tell i guess

If the code is deleted and comes back (not good), check the freeze frame data which will show the exact conditions the code is tripped.

If the code is deleted and comes back (not good), check the freeze frame data which will show the exact conditions the code is tripped.

I never did delete the P0300 code. I just assumed since i never had this code before Andy had just desensitized or dumbed it down and left it on. Isn't this what a good tunner usually does so you still could use it for a missfire? I haven't checked if it's off yet but i had some weird crap like this show up lately. The P0141 and P0161 code started popping on and the MIL status has been checked as off but wasn't done in a different spot in the tune. Looks like there are 2 different spots that need to be turned off, not??

Checked all freeze frame data. It's been tripping it at or around the 1200-1500 rpm range i guess. Once in open loop and once in closed loop status. In the engine and diagnostic under setting mil it states that the code is set to go 2 trips and emmisions related. Both areas this code is still checked in the tune. Thing that is weird is that it has never tripped this code before all these starter issues? Took it out and it is not missfiring a beat under throttle at anytime.

A buddy of mine had his block replaced years ago due to this very reason. His car is a 2000 and stock down to the paper filter. His starter ripped right off and took a piece of the block with it. The dealer swapped out the entire long block because of this. He's had his new long block for years now and no problems. Maybe it was a hand full of defective blocks. Maybe bubbles in the casting in that area

A buddy of mine had his block replaced years ago due to this very reason. His car is a 2000 and stock down to the paper filter. His starter ripped right off and took a piece of the block with it. The dealer swapped out the entire long block because of this. He's had his new long block for years now and no problems. Maybe it was a hand full of defective blocks. Maybe bubbles in the casting in that area

Hahahaha, thanks for the advice but this thing is so far from stock it's not even funny! :eek2:

Checked all freeze frame data. It's been tripping it at or around the 1200-1500 rpm range i guess. Once in open loop and once in closed loop status. In the engine and diagnostic under setting mil it states that the code is set to go 2 trips and emmisions related. Both areas this code is still checked in the tune. Thing that is weird is that it has never tripped this code before all these starter issues? Took it out and it is not missfiring a beat under throttle at anytime.

I agree. It's common to set this code with a big cam at idle, BUT if it was never set before and the tune is the same, there could be reason for concern. Check the crankshaft position sensor since it's located right next to the starter. The starter could have bumped it when it broke. I would also check the valve springs, pushrods, etc.

I agree. It's common to set this code with a big cam at idle, BUT if it was never set before and the tune is the same, there could be reason for concern. Check the crankshaft position sensor since it's located right next to the starter. The starter could have bumped it when it broke. I would also check the valve springs, pushrods, etc.

Never even thought of the crank sensor being damaged from the starters breaking! Hey good call man!! I did have a crank sensor A malfunction code a few times awhile back too but that went away. I bet money that's the solution. Damn i will be happy if it's just that:cheers:

Never even thought of the crank sensor being damaged from the starters breaking! Hey good call man!! I did have a crank sensor A malfunction code a few times awhile back too but that went away. I bet money that's the solution. Damn i will be happy if it's just that:cheers:

How did you make out is it all good now ???

How did you make out is it all good now ???

Will know tomorrow. Had a busy weekend. The airshow and Blue Angels were in town (my wife is a pilot) so we couldn't miss that of course!

The combination of compression and initial timing can be tough on starters.

If you have the ability to retard cranking timing, say all RPM more than 100 less than your normal idle RPM, that should reduce starter load and extend life.

My BBC, back in the day, had a ign kill switch I'd use till cranking speed was up, then armed the ign, never killed another starter.

New crank sensor and it still pops the code so i just went in and tuned it out. Not sure why i have the code showing up all of a sudden but the starter issue has been so far so good!?

Ok, so i finally think i have this issue figured out. I replaced the crank sensor without bothering to check the harness because of it being wrapped in electrical tape on top of the corrogated plastic it was running through. I pulled the tape off and the plastic was totally melted and my wires were melted ever so lightly together underneath. Hope this was it. I will replace 18 inches of it with a new plug and weather connectors and see how it goes!? Last ditch effort....