Generation III External Engine - 1 7/8 LTs and FAST 102 on a H/C 346. Worth the $$ or overkill?




Schantin
04-17-2012, 02:48 PM
I'm looking at a couple upgrades to the car in a few weeks. It's currently on a boat from Germany back to the US.

So... here's what I have engine-wise:

Stock LS1 shortblock.
Va Speed ported 243 heads.
Comp Cams 228/232 .600/.601 cam on a 111LSA.
SpeedInc fuel rails feeding MotoTron 60s with an Aeromotive A1000 return and a Racetronix 255gph pump.'
Car is on a SD tune using HP Tuners (tuned myself).
Running NGK TR6 plugs. Car doesn't like the "stock" TR55's.

Car is a 2002, so it has the stock LS6 intake. I also have DynaTech SuperMaXX LTs with cats that are Jet-Hot coated.

So... would it be worth the $$ to upgrade to 1 7/8 headers (or possibly 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 stepped headers) and/or a FAST 102?

Would I risk totally killing low-end torque with such a setup?

$0.02 greatly appreciated. Thanks :)


needtransam
04-17-2012, 04:38 PM
I have a question what did you like better the sts kit or your current setup, in my personal opinion i would upgrade to a 90/92 fast since you have a cam/heads and more air helps, and with the rest of the money get a stronger rear or stronger transmission so you dont brake it

thunderstruck507
04-17-2012, 04:43 PM
I would get the Texas Speed 1 7/8" for the stainless and the extra HP.

The intake would depend if I found a good deal used or not.


Schantin
04-17-2012, 04:44 PM
I have a question what did you like better the sts kit or your current setup, in my personal opinion i would upgrade to a 90/92 fast since you have a cam/heads and more air helps, and with the rest of the money get a stronger rear or stronger transmission so you dont brake it

Thanks for the input. I like the NA setup more than the STS for daily driving.

I already have a Moser 9" with 4.11's, so not worried about the rear diff :)

batboy
04-17-2012, 04:44 PM
Changing headers is probably not worth it with your setup. Gains would be very marginal and mostly just at high rpm. A FAST might not be a bad idea if you are looking for another 20 hp. The LS1 seems to love the FAST 90/92, so maybe look for an used one. You'll also need a 90mm or 92mm TB. I love my Nick Williams TB.

needtransam
04-17-2012, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the input. I like the NA setup more than the STS for daily driving.

I already have a Moser 9" with 4.11's, so not worried about the rear diff :)



Oh I see because I was between a heads and cam or an sts kit? what do you recommend personal experience which one makes more power and is the NA really that better for DD? I though the boost gave you a little more power and gas mileage?

Schantin
04-18-2012, 12:10 PM
Oh I see because I was between a heads and cam or an sts kit? what do you recommend personal experience which one makes more power and is the NA really that better for DD? I though the boost gave you a little more power and gas mileage?

Well, it depends on how you you the car and your environment:

Here's My $0.02...both good and bad:

The Good:
1. The car was darn near unbeatable from a roll. Fron 2nd gear on up I could hit full boost by 2500RPMs. As an example, I destroyed a BMW M5 on the interstate in 2008. From 40-100mph, I pulled over 10 car lengths on him. He was pissed. :lol:
2. For a turbo setup, it's relatively cheap. that said, I had around $7500 in my total kit, counting FMIC and upgraded pumps.
3. The STS uses an open wastegate. Sounds like a jet when you punch it.
4. Was able to maintain my AC.
5. It's a turbo. It brings a certain "bling" factor.

The Bad:
1. From a dead stop it wasn't that stellar. I pull faster 1/4 mile times in my HC setup, despite running nearly 8mph slower. You have an auto, so a stall will reduce the difference. With a manual, the STS is a bit of a slug off the line.
2. The darn pipes scrape on even the smallest speedbumps. I would bang a pipe (and usually blow a T-bolt fitting) at least once a week.
3. The original STS oil return pump is crap at best. I had to upgrade to a Mocal pump to keep oil from seeping past the turbo rings and into the intake tract. When oil gets in, it coats the MAF and murders HP. It also takes a good couple hours to clean all the pipes when this happens. This was probably my biggest headache (coupled with the lack of ground clearance).

For me, the HC setup (though about 50-less HP) is more reliable, much less maintenance-intensive, and thus more enjoyable for me. Oh, it's a lot cheaper too. My package from Va Speed ran me about $1600. I used the other $$ from selling my STS to buy the Moser 9" currently in the car.

flintwrench69
04-18-2012, 07:04 PM
Well, it depends on how you you the car and your environment:

Here's My $0.02...both good and bad:

The Good:
1. The car was darn near unbeatable from a roll. Fron 2nd gear on up I could hit full boost by 2500RPMs. As an example, I destroyed a BMW M5 on the interstate in 2008. From 40-100mph, I pulled over 10 car lengths on him. He was pissed. :lol:
2. For a turbo setup, it's relatively cheap. that said, I had around $7500 in my total kit, counting FMIC and upgraded pumps.
3. The STS uses an open wastegate. Sounds like a jet when you punch it.
4. Was able to maintain my AC.
5. It's a turbo. It brings a certain "bling" factor.

The Bad:
1. From a dead stop it wasn't that stellar. I pull faster 1/4 mile times in my HC setup, despite running nearly 8mph slower. You have an auto, so a stall will reduce the difference. With a manual, the STS is a bit of a slug off the line.
2. The darn pipes scrape on even the smallest speedbumps. I would bang a pipe (and usually blow a T-bolt fitting) at least once a week.
3. The original STS oil return pump is crap at best. I had to upgrade to a Mocal pump to keep oil from seeping past the turbo rings and into the intake tract. When oil gets in, it coats the MAF and murders HP. It also takes a good couple hours to clean all the pipes when this happens. This was probably my biggest headache (coupled with the lack of ground clearance).

For me, the HC setup (though about 50-less HP) is more reliable, much less maintenance-intensive, and thus more enjoyable for me. Oh, it's a lot cheaper too. My package from Va Speed ran me about $1600. I used the other $$ from selling my STS to buy the Moser 9" currently in the car.

Exactly what did you get for $1600? For that price I cant imagine much, considering a HC package. I got a good set of heads on my HC car but I got about 5k in just buying everything to install them & I did all the work. HP Tuners & a WB is included in that price & another $1400 in the cam install & tune a few years before.

01ssreda4
04-18-2012, 11:33 PM
TR55s aren't "stock plugs" by any means.

To answer your question, the headers and intake are your next bolt on NA upgrades. So because of that I'd say they are worth it.

bww3588
04-19-2012, 02:18 AM
For the intake, what did your data stream say about manifold pressure? If it is under vacuum anywhere, a fast intake will help quite a bit. It will also give you room to grow if you ever decide later on you want to go bigger cubes, larger cam...nitrous or whatever...you will already have the intake it needs.

The 90/92 is perfect for about 95 percent of cars. The 102 just replaced it because it will work great on any combo.

NVUSZ28
04-19-2012, 02:43 AM
Speed Inc, just put this out.

A lot of guys want to run a "street" cam with stock manifolds, thinking that there isn't much power left on the table because the cam is mild. This 5th Gen picked up 42RWHP with the addition of headers only...

http://www.speedinc.com/uploads/2010headeradd.jpg

bww3588
04-19-2012, 04:10 AM
He already has headers, just wondering if anything is to be gained with the larger ones.

Op, do a search for the larger and smaller comparison tests on headers, the 17/8 made more power even on stock vehicles. Not as much as on a heads/cam car, but They still made more power.

Schantin
04-19-2012, 12:06 PM
For the intake, what did your data stream say about manifold pressure? If it is under vacuum anywhere, a fast intake will help quite a bit. It will also give you room to grow if you ever decide later on you want to go bigger cubes, larger cam...nitrous or whatever...you will already have the intake it needs.

The 90/92 is perfect for about 95 percent of cars. The 102 just replaced it because it will work great on any combo.

Thanks. Appreciate the info. :)

He already has headers, just wondering if anything is to be gained with the larger ones.

Op, do a search for the larger and smaller comparison tests on headers, the 17/8 made more power even on stock vehicles. Not as much as on a heads/cam car, but They still made more power.


That's the info I was looking for. Appreciate it. :nod:

Exactly what did you get for $1600? For that price I cant imagine much, considering a HC package. I got a good set of heads on my HC car but I got about 5k in just buying everything to install them & I did all the work. HP Tuners & a WB is included in that price & another $1400 in the cam install & tune a few years before.

For $1600 I got a set of 243 heads with Patriot Dual springs ported by Shawn at Va Speed. I also got the failrly aggressive Comp Cam he recommended, as well as Comp hardened pushrods. The combo works great for a budget street/strip/autocross 346.

The $1600 did not include gaskets (Those ran another couple hundred), ARP head studs (already had those), HP Tuners (already had that), wideband (already had one), etc.

I tune and install my own stuff. Had bad experiences with places screwing up my car in the past (the now out of business TRT Turbo in particular) So... no labor charge.

The car puts down 400+ RWHP through a Moser 9" and runs mid-12's on street tires without power shifting, so I can't complain about the investment :)

needtransam
04-19-2012, 02:06 PM
Well, it depends on how you you the car and your environment:

Here's My $0.02...both good and bad:

The Good:
1. The car was darn near unbeatable from a roll. Fron 2nd gear on up I could hit full boost by 2500RPMs. As an example, I destroyed a BMW M5 on the interstate in 2008. From 40-100mph, I pulled over 10 car lengths on him. He was pissed. :lol:
2. For a turbo setup, it's relatively cheap. that said, I had around $7500 in my total kit, counting FMIC and upgraded pumps.
3. The STS uses an open wastegate. Sounds like a jet when you punch it.
4. Was able to maintain my AC.
5. It's a turbo. It brings a certain "bling" factor.

The Bad:
1. From a dead stop it wasn't that stellar. I pull faster 1/4 mile times in my HC setup, despite running nearly 8mph slower. You have an auto, so a stall will reduce the difference. With a manual, the STS is a bit of a slug off the line.
2. The darn pipes scrape on even the smallest speedbumps. I would bang a pipe (and usually blow a T-bolt fitting) at least once a week.
3. The original STS oil return pump is crap at best. I had to upgrade to a Mocal pump to keep oil from seeping past the turbo rings and into the intake tract. When oil gets in, it coats the MAF and murders HP. It also takes a good couple hours to clean all the pipes when this happens. This was probably my biggest headache (coupled with the lack of ground clearance).

For me, the HC setup (though about 50-less HP) is more reliable, much less maintenance-intensive, and thus more enjoyable for me. Oh, it's a lot cheaper too. My package from Va Speed ran me about $1600. I used the other $$ from selling my STS to buy the Moser 9" currently in the car.


Nice nice info exactly what I was looking for an answer I appreciate your input

Schantin
04-19-2012, 03:48 PM
Nice nice info exactly what I was looking for an answer I appreciate your input

No prob :)

flintwrench69
04-19-2012, 11:51 PM
Thanks. Appreciate the info. :)




That's the info I was looking for. Appreciate it. :nod:



For $1600 I got a set of 243 heads with Patriot Dual springs ported by Shawn at Va Speed. I also got the failrly aggressive Comp Cam he recommended, as well as Comp hardened pushrods. The combo works great for a budget street/strip/autocross 346.

The $1600 did not include gaskets (Those ran another couple hundred), ARP head studs (already had those), HP Tuners (already had that), wideband (already had one), etc.

I tune and install my own stuff. Had bad experiences with places screwing up my car in the past (the now out of business TRT Turbo in particular) So... no labor charge.

The car puts down 400+ RWHP through a Moser 9" and runs mid-12's on street tires without power shifting, so I can't complain about the investment :)

Not beatin on your setup, just pointing out that with all the necessities(lifters, pushrods, gaskets, timing chain, headbolts, gaskets, injectors, rockers, oil pump, tune & or tuning software) youre not gonna get it all done for that $1600. Much cheaper than going FI but still not cheap. About your original subject, I want a set of TSP 1 7/8 SS LTs after seeing pics of them. Damn nice looking header for the price.

got milk??
04-20-2012, 04:45 AM
You already have a stout setup so yes swapping out for a fast 90/92 or 102 and 1 7/8 will net you a nice increase. It will make the cam and ported 243s much happier!