Cadillac CTS-V - Headers & low end torque




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LAYGO
04-19-2012, 11:57 PM
I'm farthest from an expert on making power & whatnot, but I was talking to a guy that races regularly & has several world records. He advised me to NOT install headers because of all the low end torque loss (EDIT: for a daily driver).

I tend to believe him because just doing the xpipe/muffler delete, I can tell there's torque loss there.

My point?

Well, is there a configuration that keeps the low end torque? Heads/cam/intake eventually and headers now or just all at the same time? I got a lead on some headers, but I'm wondering if I do get them, how long do I sit on them & worry about it later or what?

I'm rambling. I'm tired. Just looking at options.


lilgcts-v
04-20-2012, 06:10 AM
you wanna go fast, you buy headers...

Greed4Speed
04-20-2012, 07:03 AM
Let me guess, he used the term "back pressure" too? If not, I'd be suprised.


RADEoN
04-20-2012, 07:55 AM
what does this guy own world records in? bullshit spewing?

The only thing I can figure would make sense out of what he's saying is, CTS-V dyno's like, 340/330 stock (not sure on that number), and you add headers, and get 356/338, there's 10 more hp than tq stock, but with headers, there's 18.

It doesn't make sense, but it makes more than what that guys saying. Who the fuck makes power with stock exhaust manifolds?

dudesweet
04-20-2012, 08:33 AM
Yeah, he might be knowledgable. But I'm gonna say that headers are going to be a plus for the V1...and most cars.

BudRacing
04-20-2012, 08:37 AM
You guys are only looking at the peak numbers. Torque off-idle and up to 2,5-3k is what this guy is referring to. Headers change the power curve and shift the power a little higher in the upper RPM's but sometimes a little lower in the lower RPM's. For normal driving, it may decrease the power in the light throttle positions, but when you get on it you'll feel the benefits of headers.

garrettg
04-20-2012, 08:39 AM
If its really a concern get the smaller sized headers 1 3/4 instead of the 1 7/8. There seems to be multiple offerings in each size both cheap and expensive. I went with the larger 1 7/8 set with cats as its a daily driver after reading as much as I could find on the topic for a ls2. I am pleased with the results on an other wise stock ls2 375/375.

Dmax/04V
04-20-2012, 08:41 AM
It all comes down to getting headers that are spec'd to your application, 2inch headers vs the standard 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 would mess with scavengin causing power loss on these cars.

adanieljohnson1
04-20-2012, 10:50 AM
Headers will help! What you lose down low will be made up on the higher rpms...

LAYGO
04-20-2012, 12:19 PM
Yea, but I get what he was saying is that the torque at normal driving speeds is where you feel it in the lower RPM. I'm 90% sure I'll never go to a drag strip, it's just not my thing. I like going fast, but making all the power at 5k doesn't make sense to me. I'm NEVER at 5k or I should say RARELY at 5k. It's a DD. I can feel the torque loss from just the xpipe/muffer delete. If adding headers is going to drop it more, then I'm not sure I'm interested. I'd like power all across the range, even if it means being just a lil less efficient at higher RPM.

LAYGO
04-20-2012, 12:20 PM
BTW, I'll research his records. I'll link you to a podcast he was on where he talks about it. I only know him by his online name atm.

LAYGO
04-20-2012, 12:29 PM
http://www.teamplayergaming.com/content/225-teamplayer-minicast.html

Minicast #2: Meet SuperCarl (http://www.teamplayergaming.com/podcasts/mp3s/Minicast/Minicast_2_Meet_Supercarl.mp3)

The interesting thing about SuperCarl is that he was in an accident & nearly lost his right hand/arm & talks about it in the podcast. It's mostly about gaming, but he does talk about drag racing. Everyone that knows him, knows he's legit. He personally told me about the records (of which I've forgotten) and he doesn't seem like a bullshitter. Just listen to him on the podcast.

slowlaneblues06
04-20-2012, 12:33 PM
Let me preface this with no I dont have dyno numbers..... yet

When increasing the flow of an exhaust system, the power range is effectively shifted, usually higher in the RPM range, Torque and HP. In my experience messing with any different vehicles, headers will provide more hp up top, regardless. Tq can suffer if the headers are too big and feed to an uinrestrictive cat back system ( x pipe, resonator delete, muffler delete, aftermarket mufflers etc.

That siad, with out a blower or pushing serious cubes, say 400+, the 1 3/4 would be a better selection for a balance of hp gains and minimizing tq loss. Even with a blower, tq should be higher, and hp might suffer just a bit, but without chasing 1/10th at a drag strip, it will give a better seat of the pants feel.

I for instance am running Kooks 1 3/4 headers, hi flo cats and stock resonator and mufflers. This setup will allow the flow up top to get HP, but also keeps some back pressure to keep the lower RPM range more responsive, albeit not as good as stock manifolds with an otherwise stock motor, and i mean stock, no head work, donkey dick thumper cam, blower, stock ls9, which is not stock for these cars, you get the point.

It does come down to personal preference when modifying cat back systems, I prefer not to since mine is a DD and i dont want it to be loud. Keep in mind that noisy cars attract attention, good and bad.

As far as your particular set up, unless you are really in love with the x pipe/muffler delete, consider re-installing atleast one. The factory resonator from my understanding has a internal x pipe. That with headers might put you closer to a sweet spot for what you want.

Your cam selection will have alot more to do with tq and hp range than the exhaust system, but they have to be matched for best results. Who ever helps you with cam selection should ask what exhaust you have or will have and use that to pick specs for your car.


Just my.02

Again, just my .02

LAYGO
04-20-2012, 12:34 PM
You guys are only looking at the peak numbers. Torque off-idle and up to 2,5-3k is what this guy is referring to. Headers change the power curve and shift the power a little higher in the upper RPM's but sometimes a little lower in the lower RPM's. For normal driving, it may decrease the power in the light throttle positions, but when you get on it you'll feel the benefits of headers.

This is what he was saying. Thanks for putting it in a way that makes my point better! :)

LAYGO
04-20-2012, 12:50 PM
Ok, this is from CTSV_510s car (with MP112). Is the fainter line the torque? That's seems pretty flat, but is that because of the Maggie? Someone have a sheet w/o a blower?
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn240/ctsv510/dynoCC4-20-12.jpg

garrettg
04-20-2012, 02:20 PM
07 ls2 mods are tune, 1 7/8 kooks headers and high flow cats.

LAYGO
04-20-2012, 02:28 PM
07 ls2 mods are tune, 1 7/8 kooks headers and high flow cats.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-cts-v/350382d1334949612-headers-low-end-torque-07-dyno.jpg


Thanks. What would be perfect NOW would be to see a dyno now of an LS2 w/1 " Kooks.

9t8z28
04-20-2012, 02:59 PM
Your not gonna loose ANY power at any RPM by installing LTH's. FACT.

07CTS-V
04-20-2012, 05:11 PM
With a tune you won't notice any torque loss down low. At worst you won't gain any but certainly not lose any. You most likely noticed a loss after the x-pipe and muffler delete because it's not tuned for the increased flow. I've tuned the same car before and after headers and the difference down low was amazing after the proper tune. I've seen this on several vehicles.

9t8z28
04-20-2012, 08:06 PM
With a tune you won't notice any torque loss down low. At worst you won't gain any but certainly not lose any. You most likely noticed a loss after the x-pipe and muffler delete because it's not tuned for the increased flow. I've tuned the same car before and after headers and the difference down low was amazing after the proper tune. I've seen this on several vehicles.

You wont notice a loss after an x-pipe and muffler delete without a tune. Exhaust is my profession.

54inches
04-20-2012, 10:10 PM
I am sure there are dyno sheets out there of before and after with runs from 1500-7kish that show the minimal gain, but no loss in the lower rpms.....


....and I am not sure why no one has mentioned it, but I call BS on anyone that is a gamer named SuperCarl that is preaching about drag racing over the internet.

When you said you "knew" him, I thought he was a friend that lived in your town. BTW, when you meet a "girl" online and she sends you some pics of her big ol titties, it's probably a guy.

Just saying.

odthetruth
04-20-2012, 10:27 PM
I am sure there are dyno sheets out there of before and after with runs from 1500-7kish that show the minimal gain, but no loss in the lower rpms.....


....and I am not sure why no one has mentioned it, but I call BS on anyone that is a gamer named SuperCarl that is preaching about drag racing over the internet.

When you said you "knew" him, I thought he was a friend that lived in your town. BTW, when you meet a "girl" online and she sends you some pics of her big ol titties, it's probably a guy.

Just saying.

1000% agreed. And girls online don't exist, so keep that in mind.

54inches
04-20-2012, 10:30 PM
And I should have prefaced what I said with this; Laygo this is not a personal attack by any means, just a word to the wise. Advice these days is mostly here-say.

07CTS-V
04-21-2012, 06:38 AM
You wont notice a loss after an x-pipe and muffler delete without a tune. Exhaust is my profession.

Sorry, tuning is only my side job. Lol

shadyLS6
04-21-2012, 07:39 AM
hahahaha great thread...

cat back and CAI are sound mods.. no real power till you get a good tune.

I love DD my V -header/w cats...

BIGGEST CON TO HEADERS!!
there is no such thing as low profile. no sneaking away from a chics house at 4am, no showing up late to work un noticed.. i live in an apt and my neighbor on the 1st floor says that my car is his alarm clock. my set up isnt even that loud, just deep. Other then that its tits n gravy..

54inches
04-21-2012, 08:33 AM
I like tits and gravy.

LAYGO
04-21-2012, 09:42 AM
....and I am not sure why no one has mentioned it, but I call BS on anyone that is a gamer named SuperCarl that is preaching about drag racing over the internet.

He told me everything face to face. He's an older gentleman (mid 50s & his right hand is all but 2 fingers & a big toe), plus, given his demeanor & all those that know him better than me that tooted his horn more than he did, I believe it.

I'm all for being cynical. I do it well, but there was NOTHING to make me think there was any deceit being presented.

Someone else posting about SuperCarl:
http://www.teamplayergaming.com/quakecon/96417-what-not-do-while-quake-con-3.html#post1506081

Me peeking over the shoulder of SuperCarl. (He's in the white shirt)
(http://www.teamplayergaming.com/attachments/quakecon/5463d1312764454-quake-con-2011-pics-2011-08-06-20.08.28.jpg.att)

54inches
04-21-2012, 10:33 PM
Well, he is wrong.

CTSVBiggie
04-22-2012, 12:16 AM
my car. With Intake/headers/Catback and then added my cam.
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/546448_3635731417627_1404455080_33565827_119899848 9_n.jpg

I think my torque curve is NICE in BOTH.

LAYGO
04-22-2012, 11:30 AM
my car. With Intake/headers/Catback and then added my cam.

I think my torque curve is NICE in BOTH.

Is the first run w/o the cam, 2nd one with? Or? This is before/after tune with CAI (diff from intake!), headers, & catback?

CTSVBiggie
04-22-2012, 06:43 PM
1st is CAI HEADERS Catback.

Second is the same + cam