View Full Version : Official 2013 GT500 662hp Ford Press Release


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jmurray87
04-26-2012, 05:44 PM
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/04/ford-most-powerful-v8-opt.jpg

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/26/2013-ford-shelby-gt500-certified-at-662-hp-and-630-pound-feet/

At 662 HP, 2013 Ford Shelby GT500 Certified As World's Most Powerful V8! Segment-Leading Fuel Efficiency

Good job Ford, Wonder how GM feels now about the GT500 seeing as before they were still saying the ZL1 was the better car.

Detoxx03
04-26-2012, 05:53 PM
Great to hear. Can't wait to run one.

mac62989
04-26-2012, 06:56 PM
Whats the price tag on these?

Detoxx03
04-26-2012, 07:04 PM
Oh and it's not the most powerful V8 in the world though.

TriShield
04-26-2012, 07:07 PM
Whats the price tag on these?

Starts at 54,200 + TTL + dealer rape.

ULTIMATEORANGESS
04-26-2012, 07:15 PM
i think ford officially put an exclamation point on this competition. for now at least.

MeentSS02
04-26-2012, 07:53 PM
Great to hear. Can't wait to run one.

Agreed...if anyone in Dayton gets one, I'm game.

ULTIMATEORANGESS
04-26-2012, 08:07 PM
honestly ive seen more at dealers than on the road. but if i come across one i want a piece too. :drive:

mac62989
04-26-2012, 08:13 PM
Starts at 54,200 + TTL + dealer rape.

Thats a lot of car for the money.. I think I like it more than the ZL1 :ban:

speedtigger
04-26-2012, 08:22 PM
Car and Driver article on the new GT500

http://blog.caranddriver.com/confirmed-2013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-rated-at-662-hp-631-lb-ft/

Robert@G-Force
04-26-2012, 10:02 PM
Oh and it's not the most powerful V8 in the world though.

It's not? What car has a higher horsepower production V8?

Z Fury
04-26-2012, 10:13 PM
What car has a higher horsepower production V8?

No one currently does. The LS9 could be, but it is detuned by GM (for traction issues, according to the magazines prior to the ZR1's release). Haters gonna hate.

This car is amazing for what it is. It can only push GM to greater things, so even if you're a Ford hater, this is good for your future GM productions.

chaman
04-26-2012, 10:18 PM
Exactly. Production wise at this time is the most powerful V8 in production. Sorry GM fans. Im sure GM will answer back.

Zlow28
04-26-2012, 10:21 PM
ford needs to let the competition breathe!

whytryz28
04-26-2012, 10:38 PM
How much more could you squeeze out of it though is the question.

Robert@G-Force
04-26-2012, 10:46 PM
How much more could you squeeze out of it though is the question.

I'm gonna say a 4.0L Whippple will squeeze a few more ponies out of it without too much trouble. lol

TransAmWS.6
04-26-2012, 11:14 PM
Starts at 54,200 + TTL + dealer rape.

I've actually read that a few guys have been able to order them at, or slightly under MSRP in certain areas. Either way you're getting a lot of car for the money, the ZL1 is in real trouble.

Detoxx03
04-26-2012, 11:58 PM
It's not? What car has a higher horsepower production V8?

Google it, a lot of shit might pop up like oh umm the Koenigsegg Agera.

Robert@G-Force
04-27-2012, 12:36 AM
Google it, a lot of shit might pop up like oh umm the Koenigsegg Agera.

Well that's not a mass produced V8 it's a niche car that they build a few a year. And besides the three cars a year they make what else is there? Shelby makes a 1100 HP version of the 2012 GT 500 but that doesn't count either, we are talking about mass produced V8's. BTW I did google it and all that popped up was the Shelby.

Latch
04-27-2012, 01:15 AM
This car will be crazy.

Redfire 03
04-27-2012, 01:19 AM
Might have to pick one of these up if I don't pull the trigger on a used ZR1.

Detoxx03
04-27-2012, 01:30 AM
It's a production car and shouldn't matter if it's mass produced or not because Ford's claim is its the most powerful v8 in the world not most powerful mass produced v8 in the world.

Anywho not I don't want to take away from ford stepping their game way up. I love the fact that it backs GM into a corner. That should only make things better for consumers.

LS1LT1
04-27-2012, 02:35 AM
Awesome power, :cool: major kudos to Ford on this one. :cheers:




Wonder how GM feels now about the GT500 seeing as before they were still saying the ZL1 was the better car.It might even still be the better car, it's just NOT the more powerful one LOL. :D ;)

Wnts2Go10O
04-27-2012, 03:15 AM
Well that's not a mass produced V8 it's a niche car that they build a few a year. And besides the three cars a year they make what else is there? Shelby makes a 1100 HP version of the 2012 GT 500 but that doesn't count either, we are talking about mass produced V8's. BTW I did google it and all that popped up was the Shelby.

koneigsegg is a car manufacturer, as in.. they build their own stuff... not build versions of cars. they even designed and build their own powerplants as well

limited production is still production... unless you would like to add more caveats to the "most powerful" title..:jest:

ie: most powerful engine in which 7000 or more a year have said engine

or maybe most powerful engine in a car below 60k

or even most powerful engine built by ken and bob (top gear reference)

oh.. btw.. a 660+hp car IS A NICHE MARKET CAR derp

DoggyB22
04-27-2012, 06:02 AM
But will it be able to grip? Either way looking forward to this Nurburgring lap & 1/4 mile

camaro98z28
04-27-2012, 09:39 AM
HP claims are one thing, performance numbers are another. All ford is doing is maxing out their engines. Anyone company can do it especially with FI.

-Ross-
04-27-2012, 11:03 AM
HP claims are one thing, performance numbers are another. All ford is doing is maxing out their engines. Anyone company can do it especially with FI.

662 hp is nowhere near max for that engine.

Some of the shit people say on here is just asinine.

Great job, Ford. Beautiful car, awesome creature comforts, amazing power.:judge:

Tainted
04-27-2012, 11:07 AM
+1 on being the most powerful V8 in the world is a crock of shit.

Iownboth
04-27-2012, 11:21 AM
My 2011 GT500 with an upgraded TVS blower, big elbow, Ford Racing CJ dual-65mm TB dyno'd at 660.2 rwhp... REAR WHEEL, through my 100% stock exhaust.

So yes, there's certainly plenty more power in the well for the bigger 5.8. But the room for improvement won't be nearly as dramatic as my 2011, because the 2013 already runs the TVS blower standard...

But as was stated, correct, it's far from "maxed out", and let the drag-strip wars begin!!

As a P.S., of course ANY car can be modified, so stock vs. stock is the only reasonable discussion. That said, I don't see the ZL1 being as easy and/or cheap to increase HP on via mods as the Shelby, and I base that on what the CTS-V guys do... There's some SICK Caddy's showing up at the track, but alot more $$$ to arrive at the same E.T.'s as the modded Shelbys that are going 10's on just a blower-swap and slicks.

I too an champing at the bit to finally get a full-on comparo of the two cars. Good lord I hope that people can take it objectively... On another forum I saw someone arguing "platform cost-effectiveness" as an excuse for the less-powerful ZL1.. C'mon, really? Whatever the guys who wear the expensive suits dictate, the cars have to speak for themselves, no damn excuses..

Detoxx03
04-27-2012, 11:28 AM
A couple guys local to me are getting them so I'll see what they perform like in person. I get tired of the bashing on each side. I'm happy for the ford guys, now hopefully GM responds with the new Corvette and/or updated Camaro.

Iownboth
04-27-2012, 11:30 AM
+1 on being the most powerful V8 in the world is a crock of shit.

They clearly state "production", i.e. new car with warranty and emmissions certified. That does not include top fuel dragsters or kit Cobras...

So if you're certain it's a crock of shit, please list the mills that beat it.. And let's say that "production" has to AT LEAST mean 200 or more cars built per-year... Otherwise, it's just a damn tuner shop...

95batmobile
04-27-2012, 11:35 AM
HP claims are one thing, performance numbers are another. All ford is doing is maxing out their engines. Anyone company can do it especially with FI.

im a gm guy all the way.. but your dumb

ford-killed-it :usa:

Tainted
04-27-2012, 11:52 AM
They clearly state "production", i.e. new car with warranty and emmissions certified. That does not include top fuel dragsters or kit Cobras...

So if you're certain it's a crock of shit, please list the mills that beat it.. And let's say that "production" has to AT LEAST mean 200 or more cars built per-year... Otherwise, it's just a damn tuner shop...

Koenigsegg CCX, CCXR, Agera

Ascari A10 comes DAMN close at 625hp with much less displacement, and built back in 2007

How bout the ariel atom with the new 650hp V8? It's only a few measly hp away as well

Need I continue more with the list?

chaman
04-27-2012, 11:59 AM
JKoenigsegg CCX, CCXR, Agera

Ascari A10 comes DAMN close at 625hp with much less displacement, and built back in 2007

How bout the ariel atom with the new 650hp V8? It's only a few measly hp away as well

Need I continue more with the list?


Close....which in you list is MORE powerful? Stop with the ricer math of displacement...just accept the FACT that Ford did it.

Tainted
04-27-2012, 12:06 PM
J


Close....which in you list is MORE powerful? Stop with the ricer math of displacement...just accept the FACT that Ford did it.

CCX 806HP, CCXR 806hp, Agera, 940HP, Agera R 1100hp


theres 3 with over 100hp more


I'm happy Ford did it, all im saying is there are V8's out theres that have more power in production form.


Oh, and how about the SSC Ultimate Aero? thats 1200hp

Detoxx03
04-27-2012, 12:17 PM
CCX 806HP, CCXR 806hp, Agera, 940HP, Agera R 1100hp


theres 3 with over 100hp more


I'm happy Ford did it, all im saying is there are V8's out theres that have more power in production form.


Oh, and how about the SSC Ultimate Aero? thats 1200hp

The new SSC Tuatara has 1300hp. Insane for a PRODUCTION car since someone wants to argue that. Doesn't matter how many are built per year cause production is production. Not me and Tainted's fault we've heard of these cars before lol.

LS1LT1
04-27-2012, 12:36 PM
I get tired of the bashing on each side. I'm happy for the ford guys, now hopefully GM responds with the new Corvette and/or updated Camaro.:werd: :nod:

chaman
04-27-2012, 12:56 PM
The new SSC Tuatara has 1300hp. Insane for a PRODUCTION car since someone wants to argue that. Doesn't matter how many are built per year cause production is production. Not me and Tainted's fault we've heard of these cars before lol.

Which must means you are better than the rest of the guys here.:zzz: Oh, and get off your high horse, Ive heard of that car but have never considered that a "production" vehicle.

If you must grab by the hairs the term production Ford must be doing something right. Comparing a super low numbers exotic to a basically mass produced car looks even better for Ford.

I always find it amusing how purists here get their panties in a bunch if other company, specially Ford, does something like this.

nanokpsi
04-27-2012, 02:32 PM
CCX 806HP, CCXR 806hp, Agera, 940HP, Agera R 1100hp


theres 3 with over 100hp more


I'm happy Ford did it, all im saying is there are V8's out theres that have more power in production form.


Oh, and how about the SSC Ultimate Aero? thats 1200hp

I don't think coach built cars count as "production cars" to Ford and other manufacturers. Pretty sure you can't really own a Koenigsegg in teh US anyways.

BTW, you forgot about the Saleen S7 TT, as the claim does not specify "still in production" nor "mass produced".

Detoxx03
04-27-2012, 02:34 PM
Which must means you are better than the rest of the guys here.:zzz: Oh, and get off your high horse, Ive heard of that car but have never considered that a "production" vehicle.

If you must grab by the hairs the term production Ford must be doing something right. Comparing a super low numbers exotic to a basically mass produced car looks even better for Ford.

I always find it amusing how purists here get their panties in a bunch if other company, specially Ford, does something like this.

See this is where interpretation comes into play. No one is on a high horse so not sure why you even say that considering I'm one of the most helpful members here and that's exactly what I'm trying to do. Production is production no matter how many are built a year. The cars mentioned aren't kit cars they are actual production cars.

I guess you also missed the numerous post where I gave ford their props and mentioned I'm happy for them. Don't twist my words to validate your response. Yes I love GM specifically the LS family of vehicles but I'm theist person to not recongize another company when they are doing great things.

Again I like the direction ford and the new family of mustangs are going in. In the end it's great for the consumer.

Iownboth
04-27-2012, 02:48 PM
I'd get into it, but chaman is doing a fine job on his own...

LOL... "production cars"... put any of those hand-built boutique car mills through GM, Chrysler or Ford durability tests and protocols and watch them all seize...

whytryz28
04-27-2012, 02:58 PM
662 hp is nowhere near max for that engine.

Some of the shit people say on here is just asinine.

Great job, Ford. Beautiful car, awesome creature comforts, amazing power.:judge:

On pump gas its close with that roots on top.

Sax1031
04-27-2012, 02:58 PM
CCX 806HP, CCXR 806hp, Agera, 940HP, Agera R 1100hp




The funny thing is.

All those are powered by Ford inspired engines.


I do however get the point that other cars have made more hp though.

Sax1031
04-27-2012, 02:59 PM
On pump gas its close with that roots on top.

not by a long shot

Z Fury
04-27-2012, 03:07 PM
Looks like cooling this monster off is an issue, and Ford had to address it.

you may notice the GT500 has NO GRILL.

Cooling this beast was a challenge and the final production car has no grill.
There are even pressure activated trap doors on the fan shroud to increase cooling when needed!

the depth of testing and engineering of unique solutions for the challenges presented by this level of power is simply very impressive.......

It will be interesting to see how this thing holds up on a hot day at the track.

Some other fun facts after a discussion with SVT:

here are a few more facts about the 2013 GT500.......

the front facia was deforming into a smily face at high speeds, so it had to be reinforced......

the tires were breaking their bead and spinning right off the wheels in WOT.....so a new better gripping bead had to be designed...........

the valve stems were collapsing at high speed, so they were replaced with brass........

and it accelerates as fast as a Ford GT to 150 mph........

LINK (http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php/topic/74540-2013-gt500-reveal-and-qa-with-jamal-hameedi-jim-owens/)

Detoxx03
04-27-2012, 03:10 PM
That's always an issue with those positive displacement blowers. That's the one thing that turns me off about the ZR1.

Wnts2Go10O
04-27-2012, 03:31 PM
I don't think coach built cars count as "production cars" to Ford and other manufacturers. Pretty sure you can't really own a Koenigsegg in teh US anyways.

BTW, you forgot about the Saleen S7 TT, as the claim does not specify "still in production" nor "mass produced".

no one said "mass produced" they said "production"

Saleen used ford engines (i think), the ssc uses an LSx motor (as does the venom), Koneigsegg used a ford motor for its first car but then went to an in house design based on the ford engine.

production car also does not necessarily mean "available in the US" either.. otherwise everything from the lumina SS to the hilux wouldnt be considered production vehicles according to you.:jest: (yay American ignorance)

i suppose you dont consider the Veyron to be the fastest PRODUCTION car in the world either, do you? theres got to be what.. a 100 or so built a year?

hey guys, maybe be consistent on your definition of production car

Iownboth
04-27-2012, 03:55 PM
My grandfather used to have a saying..., "you're just trying to pick the fly shit out of the pepper..."

It applies here... Go out, and find a websters definition of "production", throw a circle of barricades around the def./use that best supports your argument, and then parlay all your technicalities into some far-fetched defense of a who-cares notion that may possibly stroke your brand-fanboy feelings the right direction.

I mean, are you Johnny Cochran or are you a car guy?

camaro98z28
04-27-2012, 04:34 PM
You drive an LT1 so who's DUMB? Read the first part of my quote before you chime in.im a gm guy all the way.. but your dumb

ford-killed-it :usa:

Iownboth
04-27-2012, 04:41 PM
How do you run 14.1 @ 106.02 and 2.4 60-foot times? Do they spray your local track with WD-40 instead of trackbite?

BTW, back in the day I ran 13.39 @ 107.1 in my then-bone-stock 1,700-mile LT1 6-speed Corvette. I liked my LT1, and apparantly it ran stronger than your modded LS.

(I also have a 2006 GTO 6-speed BTW, ported TB & intake with tune.. SUPER great car..) :)

camaro98z28
04-27-2012, 04:49 PM
That was my HHR SS with just Tune thanks. So a Tune only HHR SS would most likely have pulled you easily from a roll. Matter of fact, I know this. Thanks and Try againHow do you run 14.1 @ 106.02 and 2.4 60-foot times? Do they spray your local track with WD-40 instead of trackbite?

BTW, back in the day I ran 13.39 @ 107.1 in my then-bone-stock 1,700-mile LT1 6-speed Corvette. I liked my LT1, and apparantly it ran stronger than your modded LS.

(I also have a 2006 GTO 6-speed BTW, ported TB & intake with tune.. SUPER great car..) :)

Iownboth
04-27-2012, 05:06 PM
I was just curious, nothing serious, sheesh...

And FWIW, the Corvette didn't stay stock, and your HHR would not have wanted any of it...

Johnnystock
04-27-2012, 05:14 PM
WOW!! I'm a GM fan, but sorry to say, this car will kick ass of EVERYTHING!! I was thinking a bit about getting a ZL1, but now I will not get one for sure!! I could not stand getting destroyed from a GT500 after paying almost the same price!

I cant wait to hear more about this car :hail::hail:

My 2011 GT500 with an upgraded TVS blower, big elbow, Ford Racing CJ dual-65mm TB dyno'd at 660.2 rwhp... REAR WHEEL, through my 100% stock exhaust.

So yes, there's certainly plenty more power in the well for the bigger 5.8. But the room for improvement won't be nearly as dramatic as my 2011, because the 2013 already runs the TVS blower standard...

As a P.S., of course ANY car can be modified, so stock vs. stock is the only reasonable discussion. That said, I don't see the ZL1 being as easy and/or cheap to increase HP on via mods as the Shelby, and I base that on what the CTS-V guys do... There's some SICK Caddy's showing up at the track, but alot more $$$ to arrive at the same E.T.'s as the modded Shelbys that are going 10's on just a blower-swap and slicks.

So I guess you run 10s easily, maybe 9s, according to your logic?

Your argument of one car beeing cheaper to mod vs another is 1st, false and 2nd useless. I dont see any blower swap beeing cheap, GM or Ford. Plus this thread is about the new stock GT500, so comparing the stock ZL1 would be better suited.

LSA engines have lots of go fast parts to chose from and LS engines are easier to mod internally than Ford V8.

I'm tired of this argument that modding is cheap; MODS ARE NOT CHEAP, ESPECIALLY AT THIS POWER LEVEL. This is even true for low end cars like LS3/LS1/5.0l. Unless youre driving a Honda and planning to do CAI/window tint/cherry bomb..

nmass399
04-27-2012, 05:16 PM
The 2.3 tvs won't support a ton of power but it will support alot for a stock equiped blower. I think it max's out at around 800hp may be lower or higher not 100% sure.

Iownboth
04-27-2012, 05:22 PM
So I guess you run 10s easily, maybe 9s, according to your logic?

Your argument of one car beeing cheaper to mod vs another is 1st, false and 2nd useless. I dont see any blower swap beeing cheap, GM or Ford. Plus this thread is about the new stock GT500, so comparing the stock ZL1 would be better suited.

LSA engines have lots of go fast parts to chose from and LS engines are easier to mod internally than Ford V8.

I'm tired of this argument that modding is cheap; MODS ARE NOT CHEAP, ESPECIALLY AT THIS POWER LEVEL. This is even true for low end cars like LS3/LS1/5.0l. Unless youre driving a Honda and planning to do CAI/window tint/cherry bomb..

First, I wasn't trying to brag, just providing some real-world context. And by blower standards, the TVS is cheap ($3400) and installs in an hour.

Secondly, I TOTALLY AGREE that stock vs. stock is the only valid debate ongoing. But for those who are looking to "catch up" to the GT500's power/weight ratio, you're doing so without forged internals, and that's where the money comes in, or the brick wall.

And some mods ARE cheap, and maybe they'll be for the Chev too... My first mod to my car was a simple pulley and dyno-tune, which Dynojetted me from 490rwhp to 549rwhp. Right there, my car was making more power than the new ZL1 for a lousy $600 buck investment.

But you can mod ANYTHING, so don't mistake my discussion points as me rambling-off into mod-land... But I DO think that "potential" is something to consider when you're buying a hot-rod, don't you?

Johnnystock
04-27-2012, 05:35 PM
First, I wasn't trying to brag, just providing some real-world context. And by blower standards, the TVS is cheap ($3400) and installs in an hour.

Secondly, I TOTALLY AGREE that stock vs. stock is the only valid debate ongoing. But for those who are looking to "catch up" to the GT500's power/weight ratio, you're doing so without forged internals, and that's where the money comes in, or the brick wall.

And some mods ARE cheap, and maybe they'll be for the Chev too... My first mod to my car was a simple pulley and dyno-tune, which Dynojetted me from 490rwhp to 549rwhp. Right there, my car was making more power than the new ZL1 for a lousy $600 buck investment.

But you can mod ANYTHING, so don't mistake my discussion points as me rambling-off into mod-land... But I DO think that "potential" is something to consider when you're buying a hot-rod, don't you?

CAI and tune are cheap for LSA and you can see as much as 54rwhp. Talk about cheap modding!! http://www.neweraperformanceparts.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=59 or this with pully for bragging http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGQbC6do4FI
Both engines react very well to mods. The only advantage over the Caddy is the weight IMO.

Iownboth
04-27-2012, 05:56 PM
And the internals... As I said, you can only go so far without pulling out the big checkbook. I'd love it though if I could talk my wife into a CTS-V wagon...

mac62989
04-27-2012, 07:36 PM
This thread just derailed a bit..

It'llrun
04-28-2012, 12:21 AM
Amongst all this back and forth bickering, have you boys noticed the CURVE on this engine? HOLY HOT WHEELS, BATMAN! This thing sees 350 tq just over idle and MAINTAINS 90% of available power from like 2,000rpm till LIMITER! This GT500 is officially "built for the insane" and I think it's a good idea to pray that not TOO many owners kill themselves or others while trying to handle this beast on the roads of America(and anywhere else).

To those few people who know precisely NOTHING about Ford OHC V8 engines, 662hp isn't remotely close to the limit for this design. A "lowly" 4.6L survived around 2,300hp. I'm betting 662 isn't too difficult to handle for a 5.8L with far better breathing characteristics.

It's a MONSTER! Congratulations Ford! 662hp and 5mpg better than the ZL1... Amazing!

LS1LT1
04-28-2012, 01:21 AM
and it accelerates as fast as a Ford GT to 150 mph........:eek2:

I can't wait to see some tests of this new beast soon...more importantly I can't wait to see it in privates hands (or Evan Smith's hands) come this fall/early winter. :cool:

01ssreda4
04-28-2012, 01:29 AM
I don't really like Ford stuff, never have actually......however, this car looks good, seems to be priced right, and sounds like a blast to drive. I don't understand why props wouldn't be given. Even I can say Ford was the only one of the big 3 to not make their pony car a big fat pig. Seems like Ford is on a roll here.

firebird99
04-28-2012, 06:27 AM
Face it guys the top dog mustang will always be better then the top dog camaro because of the vette nothing we can do about it sadly. Now the downside to the new motor combo is the pulley on the the new gt500 is so small they said we will probably have to run a bigger crank pulley instead which doesn't give much room to grow (stock blower) wise which sucks because it's not going to offer as much of a gain like the older years did but I guess that doesn't matter if you plan on buying a bigger blower. It's all good thought the f-body had a good run from 1993 until the new 5.0 came so let ford have there turn:-)

camaro98z28
04-28-2012, 08:29 AM
The problem with chevy is the Gov Bailout and failure to adapt and listening to it's consumers. Ford allowed an external developer to help design their cars which are typically aftermarket. Ford didn't take a bail out either.

Good on Ford for not needing it.

Face it guys the top dog mustang will always be better then the top dog camaro because of the vette nothing we can do about it sadly. Now the downside to the new motor combo is the pulley on the the new gt500 is so small they said we will probably have to run a bigger crank pulley instead which doesn't give much room to grow (stock blower) wise which sucks because it's not going to offer as much of a gain like the older years did but I guess that doesn't matter if you plan on buying a bigger blower. It's all good thought the f-body had a good run from 1993 until the new 5.0 came so let ford have there turn:-)

It'llrun
04-28-2012, 10:09 AM
Face it guys the top dog mustang will always be better then the top dog camaro because of the vette nothing we can do about it sadly. Now the downside to the new motor combo is the pulley on the the new gt500 is so small they said we will probably have to run a bigger crank pulley instead which doesn't give much room to grow (stock blower) wise which sucks because it's not going to offer as much of a gain like the older years did but I guess that doesn't matter if you plan on buying a bigger blower. It's all good thought the f-body had a good run from 1993 until the new 5.0 came so let ford have there turn:-)Seems the F-body's good run ended when the F-body ended. Wrapping around what you said here, the current top dog Mustang is much like it was in 2003/4 and then of course, no Camaro till 2009 and we got a 1 year reminiscence(excluding the top dog, which still crushed it) before the 5L came back.

Without question, the 1998-2002 V8 F-body was the pinnacle of overall F-body performance.

Ford allowed an external developer to help design their cars which are typically aftermarket.It didn't hurt Ford either, to have hired a German guy who really helped ramp up performance, but he recently left... I think he went to BMW, perhaps to redevelop the M series.

TheHitman
04-28-2012, 10:23 AM
This is sounding like an outstanding car. Can't wait to see what it does!

Killjoy32
04-28-2012, 11:25 AM
Torque rating please... I dont consider that MS paint graph very accurate.

Sax1031
04-28-2012, 12:32 PM
Torque rating please... I dont consider that MS paint graph very accurate.

630 or 631 depending on which article you read.

NW-99SS
04-28-2012, 01:32 PM
Keep pushing the envelope Ford! I think the performance will speak for itself, although in showroom stock form w/o DRs, the numbers will be a far cry from it's true potential.

This is good news for all enthusiasts, just the fact that the ZR1 and a hand full of super-exotics are in this thread is testament to the work Ford is accomplishing. Here's hoping GM steps up to the plate with not only a Corvette that can put this monster to sleep, but a Camaro as well!

FYI, the ZR1 is most likely my next car - waiting to see what the C7 is like, and how it affects C6 pricing. Also may wait to hear whether or not there is a ZR1 C7....:cheers:

01ssreda4
04-28-2012, 11:41 PM
Good on Ford for not needing it.

Ford has borrowed money too :bang:

NemeSS
04-29-2012, 12:08 AM
i dont like any ford mod motor,derivative or evolution of that engine. or vehicle equipped with one. i will never own any mod motor vehicle ever.
but i have to say that ford has done a good job with this new car.

if anything it may drive the motivation to the gm engineers to counter with something new for the lsx world, it may bring something really cool from gm for the lsx folk. and if that new ford engine and car is good enuff to get gm back on the clock, thats good enuff for me:judge:

BrntWS6
04-29-2012, 09:37 AM
Ford has borrowed money too :bang:


Borrowed, not given.....Big difference.

2000SSNavyblue
04-29-2012, 12:31 PM
I luv what Ford has done with the GT500, I will have a 2010-2013 in my garage sometime down the road. Major power, rear seats, looks, hugh power and made in the US, I wish they would improve the quality of the interior materials and offer a power roof, other than that its awesome. I agree as above, there is a difference between borrowing and given, add the fact that GM is not stepping to the plate to pay taxpayers back any and all shortages the taxpayers are out is an outrage. Thats fine though, they have China to focus on.

1ltcap
04-29-2012, 01:22 PM
Oh and it's not the most powerful V8 in the world though.

what is?

chaman
04-29-2012, 01:30 PM
what is?

Was never answered. They tried to bring into the discussion niche cars, with production numbers of perhaps 7 to 10 per year....yes laughable.

It'llrun
04-29-2012, 04:11 PM
By "production" it seems clear, Ford is talking about homologated produced numbers, as directed by various racing organizations over the past 50 plus years.

Cars like the Koenigsegg don't make the grade, even if they borrow Fords engines for awhile... If the manufacturer can't even push 50 out the door in a year, this doesn't meet most standards and is typically considered a niche car whereas 2,000 easily would.

Who really cares though??? It's got MONSTROUS power and for the price, nothing touches it.

chaman
04-29-2012, 04:41 PM
Its not our fault we know what the definition of "production" means, huh?

Tainted
04-29-2012, 08:12 PM
Excuses excuses :eyes:

LS1LT1
04-30-2012, 12:13 AM
Who really cares though??? It's got MONSTROUS power and for the price, nothing touches it.:nod:

Reckless
04-30-2012, 09:11 AM
There is only good that comes out of this. As long as Ford and GM keep trying to "one-up" each other, we all benefit. Stop arguing about who makes what and the highest HP. I just wonder what the limits are of the block Ford uses? Can this type of engine make significantly more power like and LS engine?

1ltcap
04-30-2012, 09:51 AM
There is only good that comes out of this. As long as Ford and GM keep trying to "one-up" each other, we all benefit. Stop arguing about who makes what and the highest HP. I just wonder what the limits are of the block Ford uses? Can this type of engine make significantly more power like and LS engine?

yes it can and does.

Wnts2Go10O
04-30-2012, 01:43 PM
Its not our fault we know what the definition of "production" means, huh?

the Cobra is a niche car..

Koneiseggs v8's make and made more power

oh and if such low numbers makes it not a production car:jest: then how is the Veyron the fastest PRODUCTION car in the world?

seems like the industry itself thinks you are wrong.

1ltcap
04-30-2012, 01:59 PM
the Cobra is a niche car..

Koneiseggs v8's make and made more power

oh and if such low numbers makes it not a production car:jest: then how is the Veyron the fastest PRODUCTION car in the world?

seems like the industry itself thinks you are wrong.

THE cobra may be, but the shelby is not.

LS1LT1
04-30-2012, 02:35 PM
yes it can and does.True, we've seen what some of the iron block 2003/2004 Cobras and GT500 engines were capable of handling and of course the awesome Ford GT with it's aluminum block as well.
I'm just curious if these later (2011-2013) aluminum blocked Mustang GT500s have quite as high of a power limit as the previous iron block counterparts had.

imperial07
04-30-2012, 03:51 PM
True, we've seen what some of the iron block 2003/2004 Cobras and GT500 engines were capable of handling and of course the awesome Ford GT with it's aluminum block as well.
I'm just curious if these later (2011-2013) aluminum blocked Mustang GT500s have quite as high of a power limit as the previous iron block counterparts had.


according to one shop the block is good for 1500hp.

TRMach1
04-30-2012, 04:43 PM
the Cobra is a niche car..

Koneiseggs v8's make and made more power

oh and if such low numbers makes it not a production car:jest: then how is the Veyron the fastest PRODUCTION car in the world?

seems like the industry itself thinks you are wrong.
How exactly do you figure that a car that comes off the same Ford production line as every other Mustang, is a niche car? Those Koneiseggs can't even be registered in the U.S., while the Shelby can be sold and driven in just about any country in the world! Hell, my car puts out almost as much power as a new 2013 GT500, but the engine had to have a lot of work put into it over what the "production version" came from the factory with.

1ltcap
04-30-2012, 04:53 PM
according to one shop the block is good for 1500hp.

i hand't known a number on the new 5.8's, but i had seen plenty stating that the old 4.6's were good to around 700 on the stock blocks. i don't have any personal experience with that though.........

MI-Z/28
04-30-2012, 06:04 PM
I'm just curious if these later (2011-2013) aluminum blocked Mustang GT500s have quite as high of a power limit as the previous iron block counterparts had.

I wonder how many people need a block that can handle 1000-1500+ hp in a street car? Seems to be more of a bragging point than anything to me. Kind of like factory posted Nurburgring lap times. I'll take the lighter aluminum block any day in a street car. For those that want to build a crazy Texas Mile, drag car, etc. there is the aftermarket.

LS1LT1
05-01-2012, 04:25 AM
I wonder how many people need a block that can handle 1000-1500+ hp in a street car? Seems to be more of a bragging point than anything to me. Kind of like factory posted Nurburgring lap times. I'll take the lighter aluminum block any day in a street car. For those that want to build a crazy Texas Mile, drag car, etc. there is the aftermarket.I agree, I too would MUCH rather have the lighter aluminum block (be it a 4.6L, 5.4L or 5.8L), especially considering that it might even take almost as much boost as the older/heavier iron ones anyway. :nod:
I would think that the actual internals themselves probably mean much more than the block material anyway.

imperial07
05-01-2012, 07:15 AM
i hand't known a number on the new 5.8's, but i had seen plenty stating that the old 4.6's were good to around 700 on the stock blocks. i don't have any personal experience with that though.........


i'm sure they are guessing at that number for now until they can push the limits to see for sure. like it was stated before the internals are probably more important because you can always do things to help strengthen a block to help get it past it limits.

1ltcap
05-01-2012, 08:53 AM
i'm sure they are guessing at that number for now until they can push the limits to see for sure. like it was stated before the internals are probably more important because you can always do things to help strengthen a block to help get it past it limits.

the blocks on these things seem like they are pretty stout. i don't think they need to change much on them.

ohioborn80
05-01-2012, 03:45 PM
There is only good that comes out of this. As long as Ford and GM keep trying to "one-up" each other, we all benefit. Stop arguing about who makes what and the highest HP. I just wonder what the limits are of the block Ford uses? Can this type of engine make significantly more power like and LS engine?

Several guys in the 5.4 for the 11-12 GT500 have made over 1000whp on stocvk blocks. SO this one should be in line as well.

chaman
05-01-2012, 04:03 PM
the Cobra is a niche car..

Koneiseggs v8's make and made more power

oh and if such low numbers makes it not a production car:jest: then how is the Veyron the fastest PRODUCTION car in the world?

seems like the industry itself thinks you are wrong.

Good try but...forget it,who Im a kidding,:bs: it was a lame ridiculous try.

firebird99
05-01-2012, 08:14 PM
Borrowed, not given.....Big difference.

So then why does GM have to pay back thier loan if it was given to them? Wouldn't that fall under the same terms as ford? Plus if it wasn't for the government giving the big three money they already proved that ford would have filed bankruptcy within months so they just had better timing that's all.

Z Fury
05-01-2012, 08:36 PM
So then why does GM have to pay back thier loan if it was given to them? Wouldn't that fall under the same terms as ford? Plus if it wasn't for the government giving the big three money they already proved that ford would have filed bankruptcy within months so they just had better timing that's all.

GM received BILLIONS in taxpayer money, then filed bankruptcy. Then, after reforming as New GM, they got a loan which they repaid. That loan was a fraction of what they received and didn't pay a dime back.

Ford got a loan and paid it back. No free hand-outs with no repayment.

Big difference.

NW-99SS
05-02-2012, 12:41 AM
^^ Thanks guys, but the horse is dead and rotted. Let's keep this thread on topic.

DoggyB22
05-02-2012, 04:55 AM
Thought Id stir it up a little bit for some friendly conversation ;)

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=365724&stc=1&d=1335883165

1ltcap
05-02-2012, 08:51 AM
Several guys in the 5.4 for the 11-12 GT500 have made over 1000whp on stocvk blocks. SO this one should be in line as well.

if the 5.4 were capable of that, and we know the 5.8 block is improved over that, then i'd have to think that the thing could support some insane power levels.....

1ltcap
05-02-2012, 08:53 AM
So then why does GM have to pay back thier loan if it was given to them? Wouldn't that fall under the same terms as ford? Plus if it wasn't for the government giving the big three money they already proved that ford would have filed bankruptcy within months so they just had better timing that's all.

you mean the big 2.

Redfire 03
05-02-2012, 11:10 AM
I wonder how many people need a block that can handle 1000-1500+ hp in a street car? Seems to be more of a bragging point than anything to me. Kind of like factory posted Nurburgring lap times. I'll take the lighter aluminum block any day in a street car. For those that want to build a crazy Texas Mile, drag car, etc. there is the aftermarket.

You're got to be surprised at the number of '13+ GT500's producing north of 1000hp. Won't be hard at all with a KB or Whipplecharger.

Marc 85Z28
05-02-2012, 02:18 PM
if the 5.4 were capable of that, and we know the 5.8 block is improved over that, then i'd have to think that the thing could support some insane power levels.....

Didn't the additional 0.4L displacement come from increasing the bore only? I know they used a new cylinder liner technology to achieve this, but increasing the cylinder bore (while keeping the same bore spacing) is the LAST thing you want to do when it comes to block integrity.

1ltcap
05-02-2012, 04:26 PM
Didn't the additional 0.4L displacement come from increasing the bore only? I know they used a new cylinder liner technology to achieve this, but increasing the cylinder bore (while keeping the same bore spacing) is the LAST thing you want to do when it comes to block integrity.

they increased the bore, supposedly strengthened it, and lightened it with that spray technology. it apparently works.

firebird99
05-02-2012, 11:38 PM
^^^^ yeah they did alot to reach the new power levels and you would think adding a longer stroke to keep the walls as thick as possible would have been better but that may affect other things that could not have been fixed with a special coating. Guess only time will tell if ford hurt the long term durability or not hopefully not for the consumers sake,hell I'm still waiting to see how much abuse the cast bottom end of the zl1 can take:-/

LS1LT1
05-03-2012, 03:04 AM
but increasing the cylinder bore (while keeping the same bore spacing) is the LAST thing you want to do when it comes to block integrity.Especially with forced induction or nitrous applications, though it could even apply to NA engines.

Heater
05-03-2012, 03:33 AM
The stroke on the 5.4 is too long as it is, so stroking it was not the best option.

1ltcap
05-03-2012, 08:53 AM
^^^^ yeah they did alot to reach the new power levels and you would think adding a longer stroke to keep the walls as thick as possible would have been better but that may affect other things that could not have been fixed with a special coating. Guess only time will tell if ford hurt the long term durability or not hopefully not for the consumers sake,hell I'm still waiting to see how much abuse the cast bottom end of the zl1 can take:-/

the process that they used on this blocks cylinders, is the same process which is used in the nissan gtr engines. ford also holds the patent on this process i believe.

1QWIKZ
05-03-2012, 10:49 AM
the process that they used on this blocks cylinders, is the same process which is used in the nissan gtr engines. ford also holds the patent on this process i believe.you are correct, the GT-R uses Ford's proprietary method...and as you can see, the GT-Rs have been proving it works.

SSCamaro99_3
05-03-2012, 04:25 PM
PTWA was used on the 5.4 aluminum block as well.

Modular V8 bore spacing is 3.937 and the 5.8 has a 3.68 bore. Leaves 0.1285 wall thickness

LS9/LSA is a 4.4 bore spacing and 4.06 bore. Leaves 0.17 wall thickness.

The long bores needed to get any displacement was something that always bothered me about the Modular family. They went with all the fancy cams and valves and then packaged the whole thing with midget bore spacing so that it could fit in FWD applications. For a long time the Modular family and the LS series had very similar 6200ish fuel shutoffs in factory trim. What was the point of all the complexity and weight for a package that made less or similar power and wouldn't outrev a "dinosaur" pushrod aplication.

firebird99
05-03-2012, 08:37 PM
Well like I said i hope it works because even as a GM guy I would hate to see something like that be the week point if a nasty ride. Now as far as proving its worth on the gtr how thick are the walls of that motor compared to a gt500 motor plus does it leave any more for a rebuild lets say at 30 over and if the motor is rebuilt how strong will it be not having that coating? And for the comment about small bore spacing I would love to see a 400+ci gt500 motor it would be crazy.

1ltcap
05-03-2012, 09:37 PM
This 2013 Ford Shelby GT500 durability prototype, however, has a different future; it will be in the hands of a private collector. Ford is auctioning off the car to benefit the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation at Barrett-Jackson this Saturday at 8:30pm.

Originally built in 2007, this car was converted to 2013 specs (5.8-liter, 650-horsepower) and tested for 24-hours at Sebring.

1QWIKZ
05-03-2012, 11:42 PM
PTWA was used on the 5.4 aluminum block as well.

Modular V8 bore spacing is 3.937 and the 5.8 has a 3.68 bore. Leaves 0.1285 wall thickness

LS9/LSA is a 4.4 bore spacing and 4.06 bore. Leaves 0.17 wall thickness.

The long bores needed to get any displacement was something that always bothered me about the Modular family. They went with all the fancy cams and valves and then packaged the whole thing with midget bore spacing so that it could fit in FWD applications. For a long time the Modular family and the LS series had very similar 6200ish fuel shutoffs in factory trim. What was the point of all the complexity and weight for a package that made less or similar power and wouldn't outrev a "dinosaur" pushrod aplication.The coyote spins to 7000rpm, roadrunner has a 7500rpm limit, trinity has a 7000 rpm limit...looks like they out-rev the pushrods to me..

Marc 85Z28
05-04-2012, 09:57 AM
The coyote spins to 7000rpm, roadrunner has a 7500rpm limit, trinity has a 7000 rpm limit...looks like they out-rev the pushrods to me..

You didn't even read what you quoted!!!!

SSCamaro99_3
05-04-2012, 01:20 PM
The coyote spins to 7000rpm, roadrunner has a 7500rpm limit, trinity has a 7000 rpm limit...looks like they out-rev the pushrods to me..

If you re-read, I said for a long time and in factory trim. The three you mention came out in 2010 ish and later. So from 1990/91-2009 this was the case. If we want to cherry pick LS7 has a 7100 rpm limit.

1QWIKZ
05-04-2012, 04:08 PM
You didn't even read what you quoted!!!!
Lol..my bad.

1ltcap
05-04-2012, 04:33 PM
If you re-read, I said for a long time and in factory trim. The three you mention came out in 2010 ish and later. So from 1990/91-2009 this was the case. If we want to cherry pick LS7 has a 7100 rpm limit.

AND from about 79 till about 90-91, it was the other way 'round.

Marc 85Z28
05-04-2012, 08:46 PM
AND from about 79 till about 90-91, it was the other way 'round.

WHAT?! I'm pretty certain GMs pushrod engines compared just fine to the Ford pushrod engines during that period. But that's not what he was talking about... He was comparing pushrod tech to Ford's supposedly superior OHC tech. Try to keep up! :zzz:

BOBS99SS
05-04-2012, 09:18 PM
Gt500 is going to spank the zl1 all over the track, maybe gm will man up and do something with a turbo for the next round

LS1LT1
05-04-2012, 09:48 PM
AND from about 79 till about 90-91, it was the other way 'round.WHAT?! I'm pretty certain GMs pushrod engines compared just fine to the Ford pushrod engines during that period. But that's not what he was talking about... He was comparing pushrod tech to Ford's supposedly superior OHC tech. Try to keep up! :zzz:Well, the '82-'95 Mustang 5.0 HO motors were (relatively speaking) pretty high winding small blocks, but the GM L69 5.0L and even the TPI LB9 5.0L weren't too bad in that regard either.
If we're simply talking 'revability'/RPMs and not just total peak power outputs that is. :)

1ltcap
05-05-2012, 08:53 AM
WHAT?! I'm pretty certain GMs pushrod engines compared just fine to the Ford pushrod engines during that period. But that's not what he was talking about... He was comparing pushrod tech to Ford's supposedly superior OHC tech. Try to keep up! :zzz:

i know what he was talking about. i just like to remind you guys that there were camaros before the 4th gen....and they weren't that fast. but they were built in the good ole usa at least. :devil:

1ltcap
05-05-2012, 08:54 AM
Gt500 is going to spank the zl1 all over the track, maybe gm will man up and do something with a turbo for the next round

didn't they build a prototype twin turbo at one point? one that burnt to the ground or something like that?

NW-99SS
05-05-2012, 12:00 PM
i know what he was talking about. i just like to remind you guys that there were camaros before the 4th gen....and they weren't that fast. but they were built in the good ole usa at least. :devil:

There were just as many or more slower Mustangs before the fox bodies as well ;)

And a vehicle assembled in Canada (F-bodies from 82-02) by parts from all over the world is less than one assembled in the USA by the same variety of parts how?

1ltcap
05-05-2012, 12:25 PM
There were just as many or more slower Mustangs before the fox bodies as well ;)

And a vehicle assembled in Canada (F-bodies from 82-02) by parts from all over the world is less than one assembled in the USA by the same variety of parts how?

uumm...because it's not american at that point?

i actually thought the 80s camaros were built here. i thought it was the 4th gen that were the first built outside of the country.

and i know that there were slower ones before the fox bodies......as there were slower camaros too. even a point when there was no camaro, whilst the mustang sold like hotcakes. in fact, if i recall from reading, the initial release of the camaro was a flop, compared to the initial release of the mustang. :engarde:

ULTIMATEORANGESS
05-05-2012, 02:45 PM
first gens sold just fine. and combined with firebirds a couple yrs outsold mustangs.

1ltcap
05-05-2012, 03:56 PM
first gens sold just fine. and combined with firebirds a couple yrs outsold mustangs.

firebird was a completley different car back then. it still had real power. :devil:

ULTIMATEORANGESS
05-05-2012, 03:59 PM
firebird was a completley different car back then. it still had real power. :devil:

it mustve been great to have all those engine choices back then.


but first gen. camaros were bad ass too and still one of my favorite cars. i want a hugger orange SS with an LS motor someday.

Marc 85Z28
05-05-2012, 04:08 PM
And a vehicle assembled in Canada (F-bodies from 82-02) by parts from all over the world is less than one assembled in the USA by the same variety of parts how?

82-02 built in Canada? Funny, I must have the only one built in Ohio! :nono:

1ltcap
05-05-2012, 04:45 PM
it mustve been great to have all those engine choices back then.


but first gen. camaros were bad ass too and still one of my favorite cars. i want a hugger orange SS with an LS motor someday.

the original camaros are my 3rd favorite car. 1st is the charger. 2nd is the mustang, followed by the camaro. the original camaro is however my favorite chevy of the 60's, and in my humble opinion, the absolute best looking camaro ever built. a close second is the current camaro.

NW-99SS
05-05-2012, 05:05 PM
My history is off. There was a plant in St. Therese for quite some time, but only 4th gen f-bodies were assembled there.

Should do proper research before I open my mouth. Either way, the american built arguement is a fairly mute point, but to each their own. In most ways, Honda Civics, and Toyota Tundras are every bit as American as their competitors, and in some ways, even more.

Back on topic, I praised Ford for building this car, and so far, it's living up to its own hype - let's see what it can do in "stock" form, that means tires, tune, etc. The mags aren't going to be buying DRs for these things (except the more dedicated ones like Fast Fords). While I believe with aftermarket tires, it will be a monster, in stock form, the tire choice will hurt this car.

We all win with the big 3 pushing each other to make better products.

1ltcap
05-05-2012, 05:16 PM
My history is off. There was a plant in St. Therese for quite some time, but only 4th gen f-bodies were assembled there.

Should do proper research before I open my mouth. Either way, the american built arguement is a fairly mute point, but to each their own. In most ways, Honda Civics, and Toyota Tundras are every bit as American as their competitors, and in some ways, even more.

Back on topic, I praised Ford for building this car, and so far, it's living up to its own hype - let's see what it can do in "stock" form, that means tires, tune, etc. The mags aren't going to be buying DRs for these things (except the more dedicated ones like Fast Fords). While I believe with aftermarket tires, it will be a monster, in stock form, the tire choice will hurt this car.

We all win with the big 3 pushing each other to make better products.

i don't use the canadian built argument, except to get under chevy guys skin. :D

i'd have no problem owning a honda, or toyota. i know that most of those are built here now.

i'd like to see what it really does in bone stock trim......meaning no creative wording, like some people on here do..........

ULTIMATEORANGESS
05-05-2012, 06:12 PM
82-02 built in Canada? Funny, I must have the only one built in Ohio! :nono:

lol. my 3rd gen was built in van nuys. based on its build quality it was probably assembled by foreigners. :jest:

LS1LT1
05-05-2012, 07:48 PM
Funny, I must have the only one built in Ohio!my 3rd gen was built in van nuys.Mine ('87 IROC Z28 5.7L) was built in Ohio as well. :nod:

But yes, back on topic LOL. :D

NW-99SS
05-06-2012, 11:58 AM
i'd like to see what it really does in bone stock trim......meaning no creative wording, like some people on here do..........

I'm looking forward to seeing what it will do as well. I highly doubt it will disappoint. And I agree, the "stock" arguement is so overdone.

assasinator
05-07-2012, 08:36 AM
How much more could you squeeze out of it though is the question.

shelby sells it in 1000hp form. so id say 1000hp.

assasinator
05-07-2012, 08:39 AM
Koenigsegg CCX, CCXR, Agera

Ascari A10 comes DAMN close at 625hp with much less displacement, and built back in 2007

How bout the ariel atom with the new 650hp V8? It's only a few measly hp away as well

Need I continue more with the list?

yeah and those are all a standard architecture engine. they are regular production designs. none of them have GM on them. lots of other facts out there.


now with that said. id take an LSA over anything out there. period.

assasinator
05-07-2012, 08:42 AM
Thought Id stir it up a little bit for some friendly conversation ;)

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=365724&stc=1&d=1335883165

the camaro is a better stylistic design. its going to sell better till GM screws it up.

LS1LT1
05-07-2012, 01:34 PM
Here is some spy video of the 2013 GT500 testing in the rain at the 'ring.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1075977_2013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-attacks-the-nrburgring-video?fbfanpage

Z Fury
05-07-2012, 03:39 PM
now with that said. id take an LSA over anything out there. period.

LS9...? The LSA is awesome, but to take it over the LS9 is like picking an LS2 over the LS3.

SSCamaro99_3
05-07-2012, 03:44 PM
didn't they build a prototype twin turbo at one point? one that burnt to the ground or something like that?

Initial ZR1 prototype was twin turbo. It burned down.

Let me clarify my Mod motor comment a little more.

When Ford elected to move to and OHC multi valve setup, they had an opportunity to hit a real homerun. In my opinion they made a few compromises that limited the potential of the engines. They have since mostly overcome them, but I think they could have done better initially. They package protected the engines for FWD applications. Therefore you had to have a narrow bore spacing to get the engine to fit between the shock towers. That is why the 5.4's are so undersquare. They were severely limited on the bore side. Think what the Mod motor "could" have been if it's architecture could have been a little different. Imagine a 4in bore, 8000rpm capable, 5.4-5.8 , factory produced engine. I am not saying they are bad. they just missed the boat on being otherworldly.

1ltcap
05-07-2012, 04:00 PM
Initial ZR1 prototype was twin turbo. It burned down.

Let me clarify my Mod motor comment a little more.

When Ford elected to move to and OHC multi valve setup, they had an opportunity to hit a real homerun. In my opinion they made a few compromises that limited the potential of the engines. They have since mostly overcome them, but I think they could have done better initially. They package protected the engines for FWD applications. Therefore you had to have a narrow bore spacing to get the engine to fit between the shock towers. That is why the 5.4's are so undersquare. They were severely limited on the bore side. Think what the Mod motor "could" have been if it's architecture could have been a little different. Imagine a 4in bore, 8000rpm capable, 5.4-5.8 , factory produced engine. I am not saying they are bad. they just missed the boat on being otherworldly.

yea.....i do agree that they seriously screwed the pooch, by not hitting that one out of the park.

CaseyEaterMach1
05-07-2012, 04:18 PM
Initial ZR1 prototype was twin turbo. It burned down.

Let me clarify my Mod motor comment a little more.

When Ford elected to move to and OHC multi valve setup, they had an opportunity to hit a real homerun. In my opinion they made a few compromises that limited the potential of the engines. They have since mostly overcome them, but I think they could have done better initially. They package protected the engines for FWD applications. Therefore you had to have a narrow bore spacing to get the engine to fit between the shock towers. That is why the 5.4's are so undersquare. They were severely limited on the bore side. Think what the Mod motor "could" have been if it's architecture could have been a little different. Imagine a 4in bore, 8000rpm capable, 5.4-5.8 , factory produced engine. I am not saying they are bad. they just missed the boat on being otherworldly.

On the subject of the small bore spacing I wonder how that engine will fare with such a large bore "for a mod motor" and all that power and heat.

Probably Fords biggest failure with the modular in my eyes was its low HP value right out of the gate. Had they 96 GT's had a 260-275hp 4.6 instead of 215 most people would have been pretty happy. Though I still ask the small bore questions myself, why not go with a 3.7 inch bore out of the gate how much could that have really added to the engine width. It would have done a world of wonders not so much because of the displacement gains but because the heads would all breath so much better with unshrouded valves.

Either way no matter what the mods became they would never be the super popular with the pure racing guys as changing mutiple cams will always be more of a pain in the ass than changing one.

DoggyB22
05-07-2012, 04:33 PM
Here is some spy video of the 2013 GT500 testing in the rain at the 'ring.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1075977_2013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-attacks-the-nrburgring-video?fbfanpage

In the rain to... About time Ford got smart & tested the Mustang at the ring!

LS1LT1
05-07-2012, 09:28 PM
Probably Fords biggest failure with the modular in my eyes was its low HP value right out of the gate. Had they 96 GT's had a 260-275hp 4.6 instead of 215 most people would have been pretty happy.Oh man, tell me about it. :nono: I had some high hopes in August/September 1995 when I placed the order for my brand new 1996 Mustang GT convertible (in the somewhat rare Tangerine Orange color), I was actually under the impression that this brand new OHC 4.6L was going to be a little more potent/outperform the outgoing 5.0L HO even if the '94/'95 5.0 was already a little choked down (lower profile/more restrictive intake manifold etc.) from the Fox body days. I was so wrong LOL. Fun car otherwise though. :)

Tee1up
05-08-2012, 11:31 PM
When will theses gt500 mustangs actually be available for purchase and drive off the lot in them. Or did I miss that part. I want one so how long do i have to wait?

1ltcap
05-08-2012, 11:35 PM
When will theses gt500 mustangs actually be available for purchase and drive off the lot in them. Or did I miss that part. I want one so how long do i have to wait?

if i'm not mistaken, you can order them now.

Adam1203
05-09-2012, 01:28 PM
I agree that ford is reaching or has maxed out their platform. But not from the stand point that more power cant be squeezed out of the car or engine. If you look at the market for a car like this the sweet spot seems to be in the low to mid 50k range. If you look at all the cars in this segment this is where they all seemed to priced at. To squeeze more power out of this set up will mean beefing up more components and adding better traction which all adds cost. The problem lies with the fact that while yes you can just add hp when you are a manufacture though you have to warranty the car and the cost of doing so cant over run the profit. So while a person on there own may be able to add 200 more hp doesn't mean that ford can. Though i think gm is in the same boat with the camaro. The higher the price the more limited the market.

To be honest while I think this is cool, but it is also depressing that 662 hp is so readily available for around 55k while my car will never probably be capable of that power. It kinda takes the fun out of it. Because now its not about skill but about how deep your wallet is. But i guess that is an age old argument.

SSCamaro99_3
05-09-2012, 02:03 PM
Because now its not about skill but about how deep your wallet is. But i guess that is an age old argument.

Its always been tha way, and the best almost always had healthy doses of both.

It'llrun
05-09-2012, 07:13 PM
Ford surpassed 4 million facebook fans... Heh... I had no idea they had a FB fan page! Their website still says available later... I think it says summer.

assasinator
05-10-2012, 08:17 AM
LS9...? The LSA is awesome, but to take it over the LS9 is like picking an LS2 over the LS3.

so a ls9 costs the same as a lsa? and it comes in a cadillac?


using your reason i need a gallardo engine.

Adam1203
05-10-2012, 08:57 AM
Its always been tha way, and the best almost always had healthy doses of both.

Yah I dont really disagree with you. It just seems crazy that people can go in and buy what I would presume is capable of high 11's with very very minimal work. It is also easily accessible at 55k for the average working man if really does want one. where i live c6 corvettes are a dime a dozen so I imagine these will. though i honestly dont see to many gt500s around here they seem to be pretty rare.

I am curious though how much hp and how fast a car will go that is priced this low or lower before big brother steps in and goes no that's not safe you cant do that.

LS1LT1
05-16-2012, 10:10 PM
Looks like it should work pretty well:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/ford-details-launch-control-for-2013-shelby-gt500/

justin455
05-16-2012, 10:25 PM
Looks like it should work pretty well:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/ford-details-launch-control-for-2013-shelby-gt500/

From the article...

"The system also will remember whether launch control was enabled or not when the car is cycled on and off."

Sounds like Ford is planning on voiding a lot of warranty work.

King23
05-16-2012, 10:40 PM
my money is still on the zr1 in a race power to weight still like the vet more and zl1 not my style very nice but not me ford may have got the power but whats the supension like to hold all that and things got to weigh as much a house lol

TheLS1Lover
05-16-2012, 10:50 PM
my money is still on the zr1 in a race power to weight still like the vet more and zl1 not my style very nice but not me ford may have got the power but whats the supension like to hold all that and things got to weigh as much a house lol

Pretty sure that the GT500 is aimed at the ZL1 market. The ZR1 is a whole other animal..

LS1LT1
05-17-2012, 03:13 AM
my money is still on the zr1 in a race power to weight still like the vet moreI agree. A bone stock C6 ZR1 has run a 10.6@132+mph in the 1/4 mile and 10.3s/10.2 with drag radials.
Over 200mph top speed as well though the 2013 GT500 might not be too far behind in that particular department. :burn:





Pretty sure that the GT500 is aimed at the ZL1 market. The ZR1 is a whole other animal..It is. :nod:

It'llrun
05-17-2012, 08:42 PM
From the article...

"The system also will remember whether launch control was enabled or not when the car is cycled on and off."

Sounds like Ford is planning on voiding a lot of warranty work.

If they set up the system, the law requires them to honor any and all written warranties... the ONLY way they can legally void a warranty is if they 1st prove that the customer caused the damage in some wilful and negligent manner. Doing that almost always involved after-market parts and even those don't always void a warranty. We've been over this at least a thousand times by now. Look into the Magnuson-Moss warranty-Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act of 1975. Nothing new about this...

my money is still on the zr1 in a race power to weight still like the vet more and zl1 not my style very nice but not me ford may have got the power but whats the supension like to hold all that and things got to weigh as much a house lol

There's little doubt, the Mustang will continue to weigh less than the ZL1. It's a total no-brainer that the ZR1 will beat the GT500. It weighs several hundred poinds(like 600) less.

1ltcap
05-18-2012, 12:12 AM
if only the gt500 weighed less.........

Sax1031
05-18-2012, 11:00 AM
Apparently some magazine editors have a 2013 GT500 at a track in Georgia testing it. First reported time was a 11.8 @ 121 mph, supposedly traps in the 121-125 mph range.

Here is a very crappy video, that doesn't even show much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hqyGoP2eYC0

Sax1031
05-18-2012, 12:22 PM
It was Evan Smith that is testing the car, along with some engineers.

From what is being said is most the 60fts have been in the 2.0 range. Evan ran a best of 11.81 @ 123mph. Density Altitude has been around 2000 for the day.

1ltcap
05-18-2012, 06:21 PM
now, imagine good air, and drag radials. i'd say down into the 11.5's pretty solidly. now, duplicate the modifications lingenfelter did to the zl1.....i'd say down into the 10.8 or so range.

LS1LT1
05-18-2012, 07:54 PM
now, imagine good air, and drag radials. i'd say down into the 11.5's pretty solidly. now, duplicate the modifications lingenfelter did to the zl1.....i'd say down into the 10.8 or so range.Quicker than that I'd bet. :nod:
Drag radials (or better yet, DOT legal slicks), good air, decent track prep and Evan Smith (or similar) driving might just put that (otherwise stock) car into the 10.9s.
Heavier mods should (obviously) bring that much much lower yet.

If a 550hp 2011 GT500 was able to pull off an 11.1@124+ on slicks ( though yes, it also had skinnies and great air) then the 2013 really have to exceed that by a notable amount as long as the clutch holds and that the new gearing didn't hurt it too much. :)

1ltcap
05-18-2012, 08:23 PM
Quicker than that I'd bet. :nod:
Drag radials (or better yet, DOT legal slicks), good air, decent track prep and Evan Smith (or similar) driving might just put that (otherwise stock) car into the 10.9s.
Heavier mods should (obviously) bring that much much lower yet.

If a 550hp 2011 GT500 was able to pull off an 11.1@124+ on slicks ( though yes, it also had skinnies and great air) then the 2013 really have to exceed that by a notable amount as long as the clutch holds and that the new gearing didn't hurt it too much. :)

i was being consertive, so the boys wouldn't start crying, then jumping down my throat calling me a nutswinger and all that......but you're probably closer to right than i am.

bit of a channel surf...but one of the threads in here, people were saying coyotes couldn't get into the single digits at full weight? how about heavier than normal at 3900#? :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yxekmav2eQ&feature=related

LS1LT1
05-18-2012, 08:47 PM
bit of a channel surf...but one of the threads in here, people were saying coyotes couldn't get into the single digits at full weight? how about heavier than normal at 3900#? :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yxekmav2eQ&feature=relatedTrue. But were those 'naysayers' talking about the 'Coyote' as in a naturally aspirated (because that is how it comes from the factory) Mustang GT?
Or were they actually including supercharged, forged bottom end type of set ups like that one?
Not that it should really matter as it's still impressive regardless.

I mean I could say that there is no way that a Miata could run 10s...but then someone could go and stuff an LSx (or even a Coyote 5.0) in there and suddenly I'm proven wrong of course.
People really need to clarify specifically what they mean/don't mean when they post stuff like that. :)

DoggyB22
05-18-2012, 08:59 PM
It was Evan Smith that is testing the car, along with some engineers.

From what is being said is most the 60fts have been in the 2.0 range. Evan ran a best of 11.81 @ 123mph. Density Altitude has been around 2000 for the day.

Not to bad... Better do some better times though if the ZL1 is doing 11.9s with less power & more weight.. ;)

Edit guess he just went 11.52@127?

DoggyB22
05-18-2012, 09:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqyGoP2eYC0&list=UUWlEFS16IXTKNLzvISL8wvQ&index=4&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU1ym8nUOUs&feature=BFa&list=UUWlEFS16IXTKNLzvISL8wvQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqAQnRauzWw&feature=BFa&list=UUWlEFS16IXTKNLzvISL8wvQ

1ltcap
05-18-2012, 09:32 PM
True. But were those 'naysayers' talking about the 'Coyote' as in a naturally aspirated (because that is how it comes from the factory) Mustang GT?
Or were they actually including supercharged, forged bottom end type of set ups like that one?
Not that it should really matter as it's still impressive regardless.

I mean I could say that there is no way that a Miata could run 10s...but then someone could go and stuff an LSx (or even a Coyote 5.0) in there and suddenly I'm proven wrong of course.
People really need to clarify specifically what they mean/don't mean when they post stuff like that. :)

ya know? they may have been talking naturally aspirated.........

i used to have a customer running 12.0's in a miata. biiiig intercooler stuffed behind the bumper.......

1ltcap
05-18-2012, 09:36 PM
dam....sounded like he launched off idle on that first video.........

TransAmWS.6
05-18-2012, 10:45 PM
Looks so good, sounds nice through the stock exhaust too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWGlIJJRBIg

chaman
05-18-2012, 10:48 PM
^^^Want...

LS1LT1
05-19-2012, 12:08 AM
Looks so good, sounds nice through the stock exhaust too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWGlIJJRBIg662hp/631tq, under $55k, I do like it. :cool:

DoggyB22
05-19-2012, 12:56 AM
I don't know I honestly don't see it in the high 10s stock with DR tires but guess were see!

Irunelevens
05-19-2012, 01:28 AM
I don't know I honestly don't see it in the high 10s stock with DR tires but guess were see!

:lol: I think you just want that to be the case. Do you think it will run 10s on slicks (bigs/littles)?

DoggyB22
05-19-2012, 02:06 AM
:lol: I think you just want that to be the case. Do you think it will run 10s on slicks (bigs/littles)?

With slicks & skinnies yea might crack into the high 10s... But running high 10s with DR when majority of ZR1 run that?

Fastest stock ZR1 with DR ran 10.260 @ 135mph & the fastest ZO6 with DR tires ran 10.74 129 mph? Guess time will tell right? Some of you guys didn't think the ZL1 would get into the 11's with stock tires & it did.....

Irunelevens
05-19-2012, 02:21 AM
Yep, they add a bunch of power, optimize the gearing, add launch control, and go .2s faster... :eyes: Come on man, be realistic. Why are you comparing it to the ZR1 and Z06 still, and who didn't think the ZL1 wouldn't run 11s?

baalic
05-19-2012, 02:40 AM
no one said "mass produced" they said "production"

Saleen used ford engines (i think), the ssc uses an LSx motor (as does the venom), Koneigsegg used a ford motor for its first car but then went to an in house design based on the ford engine.

production car also does not necessarily mean "available in the US" either.. otherwise everything from the lumina SS to the hilux wouldnt be considered production vehicles according to you.:jest: (yay American ignorance)

i suppose you dont consider the Veyron to be the fastest PRODUCTION car in the world either, do you? theres got to be what.. a 100 or so built a year?

hey guys, maybe be consistent on your definition of production car

Not sure if someone caught you yet but they Veyron is a W16 not a v8... Jusssayin

DoggyB22
05-19-2012, 02:56 AM
Yep, they add a bunch of power, optimize the gearing, add launch control, and go .2s faster... :eyes: Come on man, be realistic. Why are you comparing it to the ZR1 and Z06 still, and who didn't think the ZL1 wouldn't run 11s?

No one is comparing anything.... I'm saying I don't think it will get in their territory with DR. But like I said Ill believe it when I see it. Still disappointed about the shitty ass video quality of these mid 11 second passes of the GT500 FAIL! :(

1ltcap
05-19-2012, 08:44 AM
With slicks & skinnies yea might crack into the high 10s... But running high 10s with DR when majority of ZR1 run that?

Fastest stock ZR1 with DR ran 10.260 @ 135mph & the fastest ZO6 with DR tires ran 10.74 129 mph? Guess time will tell right? Some of you guys didn't think the ZL1 would get into the 11's with stock tires & it did.....

aaannnnddddd here comes the vette comparison, when the camaro gets its ass handed to it again. ;)

LS1LT1
05-19-2012, 12:39 PM
I don't know I honestly don't see it in the high 10s stock with DR tires but guess were see!With slicks & skinnies yea might crack into the high 10s... But running high 10s with DRIt might depend on the weather/location/track prep of course.
But the potential for high 10s out of a stock 2013 GT500 with just drag radials is definitely there.
With bias plies and skinnies it will be even more so.
By next March, I wouldn't be too shocked to hear about a bone stock one (other than slicks and skinnies) running a 10.7 at over 128+mph.
Even without the skinnies and it could still be a 10.8/10.9 at 127mph.
I'm referencing a car with some miles on it in great air/DA with a great driver of course.





& the fastest ZO6 with DR tires ran 10.74 129 mph?It was. Now it's a 10.71@130mph actually. :)

firebird99
05-19-2012, 06:10 PM
aaannnnddddd here comes the vette comparison, when the camaro gets its ass handed to it again. ;)
assnnnndddd let's not forget about all the ford guys that said it would be able to run with said vettes due to the power to weight ratio so it's not just the Chevy guys preaching that so have a seat and relax.

gocartone
05-19-2012, 06:11 PM
With slicks & skinnies yea might crack into the high 10s... But running high 10s with DR when majority of ZR1 run that?

Fastest stock ZR1 with DR ran 10.260 @ 135mph & the fastest ZO6 with DR tires ran 10.74 129 mph? Guess time will tell right? Some of you guys didn't think the ZL1 would get into the 11's with stock tires & it did.....

This new GT500 has a power to weight ratio right in between those two, so 10s on DRs shouldn't be a problem.

1ltcap
05-19-2012, 06:14 PM
assnnnndddd let's not forget about all the ford guys that said it would be able to run with said vettes due to the power to weight ratio so it's not just the Chevy guys preaching that so have a seat and relax.

i never said it was just the chevy guys. but when the camaro gets beat, someone ALWAYS pulls out the vette comparison. also, i am not one of those that compared the vette to the shelby........unless ford brings back the gt40, they'll not have anything to mash the vette with. :engarde:

DoggyB22
05-19-2012, 07:55 PM
aaannnnddddd here comes the vette comparison, when the camaro gets its ass handed to it again. ;)

Who's comparing the GT500 to a Vette? :confused: All I'm saying is I don't think it will get in that territory with just DR tires. Statement/opinion > comparison ;)



It might depend on the weather/location/track prep of course.
But the potential for high 10s out of a stock 2013 GT500 with just drag radials is definitely there.
With bias plies and skinnies it will be even more so.
By next March, I wouldn't be too shocked to hear about a bone stock one (other than slicks and skinnies) running a 10.7 at over 128+mph.
Even without the skinnies and it could still be a 10.8/10.9 at 127mph.
I'm referencing a car with some miles on it in great air/DA with a great driver of course.

It was. Now it's a 10.71@130mph actually. :)

Oh haha well then that time to... But I guess we will see. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. If I'm right then cool. Guess we will see within a couple weeks here? :burn:

Irunelevens
05-19-2012, 08:33 PM
Your ongoing pessimism surrounding everything having to do with this particular car is just very amusing to me :lol:

firebird99
05-20-2012, 02:16 AM
^^^ who?

DoggyB22
05-20-2012, 03:56 AM
Your ongoing pessimism surrounding everything having to do with this particular car is just very amusing to me :lol:

Probably referring to me with his smart ass remarks.... :thumb:

Irunelevens
05-20-2012, 05:38 AM
Was that not obvious enough? :confused:

1ltcap
05-20-2012, 11:19 AM
Your ongoing pessimism surrounding everything having to do with this particular car is just very amusing to me :lol:



see? their problem is that they're brainwashed into not thinking for themselves. they think that OHV is the only way to fly, that you NEED independent rear suspension to handle massive amounts of power, and to hold the road going around courses.

NW-99SS
05-20-2012, 12:42 PM
see? their problem is that they're brainwashed into not thinking for themselves. they think that OHV is the only way to fly, that you NEED independent rear suspension to handle massive amounts of power, and to hold the road going around courses.

Slow down mr 5.0 - all I can remember was the bashing Cobra guys gave to the LS crowd over their "ancient live axle" vs their impressive IRS. Now you want to turn the table completely around some 15 years later?

Anyone who believes OHV is the only way to go is fooling themselves. Although, prior to coyote, I wouldn't take any OHC Ford mod motor over any GM pushrod offering.

chaman
05-20-2012, 01:41 PM
Was that not obvious enough? :confused:

:jest:

1ltcap
05-20-2012, 06:54 PM
Slow down mr 5.0 - all I can remember was the bashing Cobra guys gave to the LS crowd over their "ancient live axle" vs their impressive IRS. Now you want to turn the table completely around some 15 years later?

Anyone who believes OHV is the only way to go is fooling themselves. Although, prior to coyote, I wouldn't take any OHC Ford mod motor over any GM pushrod offering.


i was being a bit of a wise ass...........and there are quite a few out there that do believe that.

beerwhiskeyjoe
05-20-2012, 08:01 PM
Camaro5 is good for something for once. Post #314, guaranteed multiple cargasms.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224806&page=13

1ltcap
05-20-2012, 08:52 PM
Camaro5 is good for something for once. Post #314, guaranteed multiple cargasms.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224806&page=13

mostly a bunch of cock gobblers over there.

firebird99
05-20-2012, 09:08 PM
Camaro5 is good for something for once. Post #314, guaranteed multiple cargasms.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224806&page=13

Troll........lol

LS1LT1
05-20-2012, 11:25 PM
But I guess we will see. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. If I'm right then cool. Guess we will see within a couple weeks here? :burn:Well it's getting real hot out now all over the country so we likely won't see the absolute best out of any cars (be they GT500s, ZL1s or otherwise) but by December the ETs will certainly drop from what we're seeing/hearing about right now.

DoggyB22
05-20-2012, 11:57 PM
Was that not obvious enough? :confused:

Cool story bro.... & why your a complete ass hole is beyond me? When all I'm doing is stating an opinion on a public car forum? :confused: Go enjoy that S200 dude :cool:

see? their problem is that they're brainwashed into not thinking for themselves. they think that OHV is the only way to fly, that you NEED independent rear suspension to handle massive amounts of power, and to hold the road going around courses.

Brainwashed? Umm ok. I've given the GT500 plenty of respect trust me. :eyes: Its an awesome car but it still needs to prove the hype that people are giving it.

Slow down mr 5.0 - all I can remember was the bashing Cobra guys gave to the LS crowd over their "ancient live axle" vs their impressive IRS. Now you want to turn the table completely around some 15 years later?

Anyone who believes OHV is the only way to go is fooling themselves. Although, prior to coyote, I wouldn't take any OHC Ford mod motor over any GM pushrod offering.

This.... :judge:

Well it's getting real hot out now all over the country so we likely won't see the absolute best out of any cars (be they GT500s, ZL1s or otherwise) but by December the ETs will certainly drop from what we're seeing/hearing about right now.

I mean there's plenty of times during at night & I don't know about you but last summer in CA it didn't really get that hot. Pretty on & off with heat. I think in the Bay Area we only had like a few days where it was 100+ so I'm sure someone will be able to prove what the GT500 is capable of in a few weeks

Irunelevens
05-21-2012, 12:07 AM
S2000*. And that car was sold more than two years ago :lol:

DoggyB22
05-21-2012, 12:36 AM
S2000*. And that car was sold more than two years ago :lol:

Still owned it right? ANYWAY............ :gtfo: with you trying to act like a internet bad ass!

LS1LT1
05-21-2012, 12:56 AM
I mean there's plenty of times during at night & I don't know about you but last summer in CA it didn't really get that hot. Pretty on & off with heat. I think in the Bay Area we only had like a few days where it was 100+ so I'm sure someone will be able to prove what the GT500 is capable of in a few weeksTrue. And even from the 'warm weather' ETs/trap speeds we can still sort of extrapolate/decipher what it might run in good air as well so I am looking forward to reading about some 'sticky rear tire' passes soon. :drive:

Irunelevens
05-21-2012, 01:04 AM
Still owned it right? ANYWAY............ :gtfo: with you trying to act like a internet bad ass!

Yep, totally got me pegged. Let me go enjoy the car I don't have anymore... :lol:

DoggyB22
05-21-2012, 02:06 AM
S2000*. And that car was sold more than two years ago :lol:
Yep, totally got me pegged. Let me go enjoy the car I don't have anymore... :lol:




http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg

Yea you established that already buddy...? & YOU still sold your Mustang & bought a S2000 right? :cool:

True. And even from the 'warm weather' ETs/trap speeds we can still sort of extrapolate/decipher what it might run in good air as well so I am looking forward to reading about some 'sticky rear tire' passes soon. :drive:

Exactly :burn:

Irunelevens
05-21-2012, 02:13 AM
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg

Yea you established that already buddy...? & YOU still sold your Mustang & bought a S2000 right? :cool:



Exactly :burn:

Dude I've been over my past car situation so many times, I'm not gonna bother doing it again. You're trying too hard.

DoggyB22
05-21-2012, 03:08 AM
Dude I've been over my past car situation so many times, I'm not gonna bother doing it again. You're trying too hard.

And yet your STILL trying to provoke the situation............. Ummm sorry I don't read all the threads you make about your "car situation" on a forum full of people. Your the one making pointless post/call outs. :eyes:

Still owned it right? ANYWAY............ :gtfo: with you trying to act like a internet bad ass!

GotHemi?
05-21-2012, 03:22 AM
Dyno... 609rwhp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz9Uqg0xbm4

MT 11.6@125.7 0-60 3.5sec

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...00_first_test/

Latch
05-21-2012, 03:40 AM
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee40/SOTAR22/mother-of-god-super-troopers.jpg

DoggyB22
05-21-2012, 03:54 AM
Dyno... 609rwhp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz9Uqg0xbm4

MT 11.6@125.7 0-60 3.5sec

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...00_first_test/

Sounds about right! Assuming it was done on street tires?

GotHemi?
05-21-2012, 04:17 AM
Sounds about right! Assuming it was done on street tires?

Yup...Ford has gotten a 11.5@127 and 11.7@129 with cool down.

DoggyB22
05-21-2012, 04:23 AM
Yea..

Here's a better vid of one of its passes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C74QP8wY9BM

Irunelevens
05-21-2012, 10:10 AM
And yet your STILL trying to provoke the situation............. Ummm sorry I don't read all the threads you make about your "car situation" on a forum full of people. Your the one making pointless post/call outs. :eyes:

Call outs? Wtf are you talking about? On-topic, 11.6 from Motor Trend is mighty impressive. An 11.1-11.3 from an experienced owner in better conditions is sounding more and more plausible.

l 95 Trans Am l
05-21-2012, 10:29 AM
http://jalopnik.com/5911657/first-drive-2013-ford-shelby-gt500?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Jalopnik review...

I'm a GM guy and I like the ZL1, however, Ford deffinetly put a lead on this "muscle car competition" for awhile. Chevy's isn't going to bounce back as fast as Ford did (for those who don't know, Ford announced this car a day after Chevy announced the ZL1)

If I were to pick between the two, it'd deffinetly be the GT500, especially since the ZL1 costs almost the same amount of money

RedRocketZ28
05-21-2012, 10:32 AM
This is a bad ass car. The modern muscle car war is something I am happy to be a part of.

jmurray87
05-21-2012, 10:44 AM
InsideLine did a 12.2 in the GT500.

http://www.insideline.com/ford/shelby-gt500/2013/2013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-full-test.html

NW-99SS
05-21-2012, 02:34 PM
Subjectively, it's not a car I really want. Objectively, it's the pony to have if you want to go fast in a straight line. Handling, well ride and handling are again subjective, I would have to put seat time in to make this decision (as would everyone else I expect).

So it took two weeks to run 9s with a ZL1, who wants to take bets on how long till this beast gets there? (A week, just to put the war back in GM hands?) Have to commend Ford on a fantastic job for those who want Shelby Mustangs!

TriShield
05-21-2012, 02:37 PM
If I were to pick between the two, it'd deffinetly be the GT500, especially since the ZL1 costs almost the same amount of money

I just pasted Autoblog's first drive impression and the author noted the GT500 is about 10,000 more than the ZL1.

bah321
05-21-2012, 02:49 PM
Yup...Ford has gotten a 11.5@127 and 11.7@129 with cool down.

Gat damn...129 mph??

whytryz28
05-21-2012, 02:55 PM
Wow that thing is serious!

LS1LT1
05-21-2012, 02:59 PM
On-topic, 11.6 from Motor Trend is mighty impressive. An 11.1-11.3 from an experienced owner in better conditions is sounding more and more plausible.I'd have to agree.
And which is pretty much what I'd been predicting (I've been saying 11.2/11.3ish) all along, although I'd never expected to see it pull a 129mph :eek: trap speed on stock tires (if that's in fact true).
That car frightens me LOL.

And yes, it will go high 10s in decent air with just a rear tire swap.

1ltcap
05-21-2012, 03:10 PM
I just pasted Autoblog's first drive impression and the author noted the GT500 is about 10,000 more than the ZL1.

THEY tested it with everything on it? don't forget, ford options all the track stuff onto this.....which on one hand, i fully understand....on the other, i think it's kinda cheesy......

Irunelevens
05-21-2012, 03:43 PM
I'd have to agree.
And which is pretty much what I'd been predicting (I've been saying 11.2/11.3ish) all along, although I'd never expected to see it pull a 129mph :eek: trap speed on stock tires (if that's in fact true).
That car frightens me LOL.

And yes, it will go high 10s in decent air with just a rear tire swap.

Yezzir, most of us have been guessing low-mid 11s right off the showroom floor, 10s on a DR, and deeper in the 10s on bigs/littles. I bet with some light weight reduction and the right conditions, this thing could run in the 9s using the stock blower. Or get damn close. I'm talking best case scenario, of course.

LS1LT1
05-21-2012, 03:52 PM
I bet with some light weight reduction and the right conditions, this thing could run in the 9s using the stock blower. Or get damn close. I'm talking best case scenario, of course.Possibly, with the typical weight reduction tricks and full bolt ons/tuning, there is a chance of a 9.99.

Z Fury
05-21-2012, 04:40 PM
I just pasted Autoblog's first drive impression and the author noted the fully-optioned GT500 is about 10,000 more than the base ZL1.

Fixed. I just ran a ZL1 over $60K on the "Build Your Own" tab on Chevy.com. I agree that the GT500 should at least include the Track Pack to be comparable to the ZL1, so it does cost more in (what I consider) base form, but the price difference is worth it in my eyes.

gocartone
05-21-2012, 05:10 PM
InsideLine did a 12.2 in the GT500.

http://www.insideline.com/ford/shelby-gt500/2013/2013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-full-test.html

That's the same as what they did in the 750hp 3900lb SLP ZL1 Camaro.

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2011/2011-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-slp-full-test.html

129mph is moving! Just imagine what this thing will do in negative DA (DA for the test day was somewhere between 2000-2500, plus every magazine running back to back to back tests on them).

l 95 Trans Am l
05-21-2012, 08:47 PM
I just pasted Autoblog's first drive impression and the author noted the GT500 is about 10,000 more than the ZL1.

Really? Cause I thought the ZL1 was $54k

Z Fury
05-21-2012, 08:51 PM
Really? Cause I thought the ZL1 was $54k

Base ZL1 is $54K. A well optioned GT500 (as tested) is $63K.

For better comparison, go slap some options on the ZL1 and compare apples to apples. GT500 is pricier, but not by $10K.

TriShield
05-21-2012, 09:24 PM
Base ZL1 is $54K. A well optioned GT500 (as tested) is $63K.

For better comparison, go slap some options on the ZL1 and compare apples to apples. GT500 is pricier, but not by $10K.

The ZL1 doesn't have any big bang performance options like the GT500 does, other than $500 suede for the inside. All ZL1s come standard with the latest magentic track suspension, appropriate brakes, etc.

I just built a GT500 with the SVT Track Package and Recaro seats and it is 63,080. I left the nav, big woofer and other junk off of it.

It's still a premium over the ZL1, almost an entire Nissan Versa's worth of money over the ZL1.

gocartone
05-21-2012, 10:23 PM
It's still a premium over the ZL1, almost an entire Nissan Versa's worth of money over the ZL1.

Ummm...What kind of math are you using? $63k-56.5K(delivery+gas guzzler tax)=$6.5k...A Versa has a base price of $15k, so the price difference is less than half a Versa.

TransAmWS.6
05-21-2012, 10:32 PM
The ZL1 doesn't have any big bang performance options like the GT500 does, other than $500 suede for the inside. All ZL1s come standard with the latest magentic track suspension, appropriate brakes, etc.

I just built a GT500 with the SVT Track Package and Recaro seats and it is 63,080. I left the nav, big woofer and other junk off of it.

It's still a premium over the ZL1, almost an entire Nissan Versa's worth of money over the ZL1.

At this point, it seems like the GT500 is definitely much more car than the ZL1. I feel like the extra cost is well worth it. I can't even think of any single good reason as to why one would choose a ZL1 over the GT500, unless they just like the way the Camaro looks, wanted to save money, or they are just extremely biased to Chevrolet.

DoggyB22
05-21-2012, 10:42 PM
Mustang GT500
- Base is $54,200
- Shipping cost is $795 to the Bay Area, Ca

- $62,595 for a fully optioned GT500 without the "SVT Packages"
- $66,095 for a fully optioned GT500 with the "SVT Performance Package"
- $69,085 for a fully optioned GT500 with the "SVT Performance & Track Package"


Camaro ZL1
- Base is $54,096
- Shipping cost is $900 to the Bay Area, Ca

- $60,800 for a fully optioned auto ZL1.
- $58,315 for a fully optioned standard 6 speed ZL1
- Plus $470 if you want black/grey roof & rear deck lid stripe
- Plus $600 for the hood insert/exposed carbon fiber. Can't have both the stripe & exposed carbon fiber



At this point, it seems like the GT500 is definitely much more car than the ZL1. I feel like the extra cost is well worth it. I can't even think of any single good reason as to why one would choose a ZL1 over the GT500, unless they just like the way the Camaro looks, wanted to save money, or they are just extremely biased to Chevrolet.



IMO id buy the ZL1.... Is the fully optioned GT500 really worth $8-$10k more then the fully optioned ZL1?!?! When Livernois Motorsports did 9s with their level 3 package which cost $10k... Again this is JUST my opinion if I had the cash. Of course you can spend a lot less on a car & go faster then both these cars but I'm just saying. $8-10k more is a lot though for comparison

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/categories/GM%7B47%7DChevrolet/2012-Camaro-ZL1/2012-Camaro-ZL1-Performance-Packages/

MI-Z/28
05-21-2012, 10:50 PM
Both cars are extremely badass. If money was not an object I could flip a coin and be happy with a GT500 or ZL1. Neither would stay stock for long anyways.

So how long until Dodge offers a 1.9L or 2.3L TVS blower on the 392 Chally or Charger SRT8 models?

ramair 1
05-21-2012, 10:58 PM
Ford can make a mustang with 1000 hp and sell it for half what a comparable gm goes for and i aint switchn brands! I have owned both and ill allways be a gm man.

Irunelevens
05-21-2012, 11:08 PM
Ford can make a mustang with 1000 hp and sell it for half what a comparable gm goes for and i aint switchn brands! I have owned both and ill allways be a gm man.

This is one of those times when we really need this smilie...had to get it from another forum.

http://3.7mustang.com/vb/images/smilies/facepalmsmiley1ti3jz9.gif

chaman
05-21-2012, 11:10 PM
Good choice of smilie....:judge:

DoggyB22
05-21-2012, 11:18 PM
Now I don't know about 1000 hp/being half & all that mumbo jumbo... But I mean its his opinion on which car he likes. He obviously is a GM guy & would rather buy a GM car over a Ford. If Ford sold a 1000 hp Mustang out of the factory for less or the same price as a Camaro Id buy the Mustang lol... But that will/would never happen

Irunelevens
05-21-2012, 11:25 PM
He has the right to his opinion, and we all have the right to tell him how ridiculous it is :lol:

jmurray87
05-21-2012, 11:34 PM
Meh, hand me a C6Z06 over both of these cars. But if I had only 50-60k and wanted a brand new car It would be a toss up between these 2 cars both are fantastic even if the GT500 is quicker the ZL1 is a sexy beast as well. I am more curious to see how GM will respond with the C7Z06 since the new GT500 is basically close or in the range of a stock C6Z06 but granted one can argue that they are 2 different cars in 2 different classes.

Also, I wouldn't mind knowing if these GT500s being tested are base models or models with the SVT Performance & Track Upgrade packages? I see them listed as options these packages curious to know what additions and changes are a part of them.

Not like it matters I can't afford either or a Z06...:(

-Ross-
05-22-2012, 09:05 AM
I see them listed as options these packages curious to know what additions and changes are a part of them.

SVT Performance Package: $3,495
TORSEN® differential with 3.31 axle ratio; 19" x 9.5" front and 20" x 9.5" rear "Tarnish" painted aluminum forged wheels; Upgraded springs and stabilizer bars; Unique gear shift knob; SVT engineered Bilstein cockpit-selectable dampers; Rear spoiler with Gurney Flap

SVT Track Pack: $2,995
External engine oil cooler; Transmission cooler with pump; Differential cooler with pump

Electronics Package: $2,340
Voice activated navigation system with an in-dash screen and single DVD/CD/MP3 player with DVD audio and video capability, HD radio, an internal hard disk drive for map, and point of interest (POI) storage and 10 gigabyte Music Jukebox, dual zone automatic temperature control, integrated SIRIUS® Travel Link that provides such information as real-time traffic and current local gas prices. (6-month SIRIUS® Travel Link service included

1ltcap
05-22-2012, 09:36 AM
Mustang GT500
- Base is $54,200
- Shipping cost is $795 to the Bay Area, Ca

- $62,595 for a fully optioned GT500 without the "SVT Packages"
- $66,095 for a fully optioned GT500 with the "SVT Performance Package"
- $69,085 for a fully optioned GT500 with the "SVT Performance & Track Package"


Camaro ZL1
- Base is $54,096
- Shipping cost is $900 to the Bay Area, Ca

- $60,800 for a fully optioned auto ZL1.
- $58,315 for a fully optioned standard 6 speed ZL1
- Plus $470 if you want black/grey roof & rear deck lid stripe
- Plus $600 for the hood insert/exposed carbon fiber. Can't have both the stripe & exposed carbon fiber







IMO id buy the ZL1.... Is the fully optioned GT500 really worth $8-$10k more then the fully optioned ZL1?!?! When Livernois Motorsports did 9s with their level 3 package which cost $10k... Again this is JUST my opinion if I had the cash. Of course you can spend a lot less on a car & go faster then both these cars but I'm just saying. $8-10k more is a lot though for comparison

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/categories/GM%7B47%7DChevrolet/2012-Camaro-ZL1/2012-Camaro-ZL1-Performance-Packages/

i think you optioned the glass roof, and nav into the shelby. i just set one up how i'd order it, with the racing packages, and it's 62k.
that said, my gt was 38.9k on fords website as optioned, but cost me less than 34k to take delivery of it. i would imagine it's the same for the shelby, although i could be wrong.

and yes, the extra money would be well worth it, because although they're BOTH badass cars, i do feel that the shelby has accomplished much more than the camaro in this case. plus it's better looking.

i still don't like that ford's charging extra for the extra racing stuff, but in the long run, it's gonna be a smart move on their part.

TriShield
05-22-2012, 11:13 AM
Ummm...What kind of math are you using? $63k-56.5K(delivery+gas guzzler tax)=$6.5k...A Versa has a base price of $15k, so the price difference is less than half a Versa.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/automotive-news-media-press/1549054-autoblog-2013-ford-mustang-gt500.html

"The price is within spitting distance of a base Cadillac CTS-V Coupe and nearly a Nissan Versa more expensive than a base Chevrolet Camaro ZL1. The 2013 Ford Shelby GT500 starts at $54,200, though the SVT Performance Package with its specific spring rates, adjustable Bilstein dampers and Torsen limited slip rear will set you back another $3,495. Want the extra cooling capacity found in the Track Package? Get ready to pony up an extra $2,995. Likewise, our excellent Recaro buckets are a $1,595 option, which brings our grand total to $63,080, including a $795 destination fee. That's not even including fanciness like a Shaker Pro audio system or voice-activated navigation."

-Ross-
05-22-2012, 11:45 AM
ZL1 (52,729):

14city/19hwy
580hp/556lb-ft

Interior Sueded Microfiber Package - $464 (GT500 comes with this standard)
20" x 10.0" Front and 20" x 11.0" Rear Bright 5-spoke Forged Aluminum Wheels - $437 (wheels are part of the SVT Performance Package)
Destination Fee - $900
Gas Guzzler Tax - $1,300

Total - $57,192



GT500 (54,200):

15city/24hwy
662hp/631lb-ft

SVT Peformance Package - $3,495
SVT Track Pack - $2,995

Total - $63,833


Price difference:
$6,641

So for the $6,641, you get a warrantied fully forged engine producing 82 additional horsepower, 75 lb-ft more torque and 5 more mpg on the highway that will put a few cars on the ZL1 in the 1/4 mile and (I'm speculating here) probably stay right with it on a road course.

I think the extra money is worth it.

Sure, you can throw a few grand at a new ZL1 and make it as quick as the 13 GT500, but say bye to the warranty.

gocartone
05-22-2012, 01:18 PM
http://ls1tech.com/forums/automotive-news-media-press/1549054-autoblog-2013-ford-mustang-gt500.html


Maybe you should check numbers before quoting something someone else wrote; $6500 is not nearly $15k in anyone's book.

SSCamaro99_3
05-22-2012, 02:53 PM
20" x 10.0" Front and 20" x 11.0" Rear Bright 5-spoke Forged Aluminum Wheels - $437 (wheels are part of the SVT Performance Package)

Standard wheel are the same size an material, just black painted. The $437 is for the finish change.

)=$6.5k...

Should not a top of the line model come with all performance options standard, unlike the Z06?

88blackgt
05-22-2012, 02:57 PM
Standard wheel are the same size an material, just black painted. The $437 is for the finish change.



Should not a top of the line model come with all performance options standard, unlike the Z06?

No, no it shouldn't. I don't need a big speaker system, navigation, heated seats, back up camera, etc in my 662 hp car. I'd rather have the option to make it the way I want. You want it check the box.

I realize you said performance options but it still applies. A drag car isn't likely to need all the additional coolers or maybe I already plan on putting new suspension or wheels on? Why pay a ridiculous amount for what I don't want is my question to you. Options make everyone happy.

texas94z
05-22-2012, 03:20 PM
I just want to see the '13 GT500's 'Ring time.

-Ross-
05-22-2012, 03:38 PM
The GT500 costs more, because it's a better, more powerful vehicle. Sorry if this hurts some butts.

The ZL1 needs a few grand in mods and a voided warranty to keep up with this GT500. It's ok. It's not the end of the world.

It'llrun
05-22-2012, 03:48 PM
I just pasted Autoblog's first drive impression and the author noted the GT500 is about 10,000 more than the ZL1.The author also used the word "base" somewhere in there... Only for the ZL1. the base GT500 is very near the base ZL1. Perhaps if the author had said whatever with the open comment that the ZL1 has "standard" things which raise the price of the GT500, it would've been more appropriate.

Base vs Base, the GT500 is actually cheaper to purchase within the USA because, since it gets 5mpg more hwy miles, it doesn't get slammed with the gas guzzler tax, which is 1,300. Either may have a markup, but that's beside the point.

I'd have to agree.
And which is pretty much what I'd been predicting (I've been saying 11.2/11.3ish) all along, although I'd never expected to see it pull a 129mph :eek: trap speed on stock tires (if that's in fact true).
That car frightens me LOL.

And yes, it will go high 10s in decent air with just a rear tire swap.Me too, and I've been saying it won't surprise me a bit if it can runs 10's with just stickies. I can't see anything stopping it from those numbers. This car is JUST AS bad ass as we thought it would be. ;)

88blackgt
05-22-2012, 04:19 PM
I just want to see the '13 GT500's 'Ring time.

I can't wait, its such valuable info for everyone who takes their ZL1 or GT500 across the Atlantic and encounters an equally modified ZL1 or GT500 with a similarly skilled driver at the all important 'Ring

MI-Z/28
05-22-2012, 05:51 PM
No, no it shouldn't. I don't need a big speaker system, navigation, heated seats, back up camera, etc in my 662 hp car. I'd rather have the option to make it the way I want. You want it check the box.

I realize you said performance options but it still applies. A drag car isn't likely to need all the additional coolers or maybe I already plan on putting new suspension or wheels on? Why pay a ridiculous amount for what I don't want is my question to you. Options make everyone happy.

:hail:

Sax1031
05-22-2012, 06:02 PM
http://image.mustang50magazine.com/f/miscellaneous/2013-shelby-gt500-dyno-sheet-revealed/37480721/2013-shelby-gt500-dyno-sheet.jpg

SVTconfused
05-22-2012, 06:43 PM
I just want to see the '13 GT500's 'Ring time.

i wanna see a no shit time...


rumor rolling around on another forum i frequent is its cutting 7:30's

firebird99
05-22-2012, 07:06 PM
I can't wait, its such valuable info for everyone who takes their ZL1 or GT500 across the Atlantic and encounters an equally modified ZL1 or GT500 with a similarly skilled driver at the all important 'Ring

Even though most U.S. cars will never see the "ring" why do people like you think that its a bs way of testing cars? It's a complex track that has been a high water mark for years because no other track compares to it. Maybe if they tested it on a track state side that the cars would run on it would hold up better to people like yourself or do you feel like showing the cars ability on a road course is pointless all together? Just to clarify I'm not trying to start a bash fest just trying to better understand your views.

SVTconfused
05-22-2012, 07:09 PM
Even though most U.S. cars will never see the "ring" why do people like you think that its a bs way of testing cars? It's a complex track that has been a high water mark for years because no other track compares to it. Maybe if they tested it on a track state side that the cars would run on it would hold up better to people like yourself or do you feel like showing the cars ability on a road course is pointless all together? Just to clarify I'm not trying to start a bash fest just trying to better understand your views.

theres a reason why indy stopped racing there...


Its a very difficult track... and has killed allot of people... IMO its the benchmark of roadcourses...

It'llrun
05-22-2012, 07:40 PM
Can someone please re-size that RIDICULOUSLY OVERSIZED dyno graph??? The car is powerful and makes MAD torque to boot... We get it. We'd also get it in half that size... :takethat: :321: :P

Taking a car to the ring is fine, but for the millions of American automotive fans, it really doesn't amount to much. I'd prefer they take it to any number of tracks it may actually be raced on by the majority of buyers who race. Surely someone will give it some laps at VIR or Road Atlanta(which is also apparently quite dangerous) or Laguna Seca or Inde, or Sebring... Don't really care where, but in America, where the comparison may just play out between several cars we drive all at once in the same race.

1ltcap
05-22-2012, 07:55 PM
Even though most U.S. cars will never see the "ring" why do people like you think that its a bs way of testing cars? It's a complex track that has been a high water mark for years because no other track compares to it. Maybe if they tested it on a track state side that the cars would run on it would hold up better to people like yourself or do you feel like showing the cars ability on a road course is pointless all together? Just to clarify I'm not trying to start a bash fest just trying to better understand your views.



considering that most likely, both of these cars main market will be in the usa, i have to agree with him.
ford would be better spending their time running VIR, to match/beat the zl there. or laguna seca. or any other usa road course. those are tracks that the target market can/will understand, and respect.