View Full Version : 427ci LS2 Sleeved, 4 barrel TB, port FI, NA, dry sump, engine build.


DaleTx
04-30-2012, 10:26 PM
I am in the process of building a new engine for my Camaro. I want to build an engine that will run on the street for cruising, hold up for 25 min runs on road courses (track day events), and take the abuse of occasional ¼ mile drag racing with my friends. In the past I have always run gen 1 small blocks, but this time I want to do an LS engine. This will be a fresh start and I want to explore the potential of the gen IV engines I’ve read so much about. My goal is to build an engine that runs strong off the bottom, builds power up to 7,000 RPM, puts out 650HP at the crank, runs on 92 octane pump gas, and takes some abuse!

Here is what I have so far:

LS2 sleeved block, 427 CID, 4.125” bore x 4.0” stroke
Manley forged crank and Manley H-beam rods
Weisco forged pistons, compression ratio ~11.5:1
LS7 CNC ported heads with titanium intake valves
T&D shaft rocker system
247/255 @ 0.050 Cam, 112 LSA
NRC dry sump oil system with 4 stage oil pump
Kooks 1-7/8” headers, 3” exhaust into 3” X-pipe reduced to 2-1/2” tail pipes
Katech Aluminum flywheel with modified ZR1 Corvette twin disc clutch (20% more clamp force)
Vaporworx fuel system with standalone digital controller, and GM CTS-V fuel pump (380lph capacity)
GM ECM and GM card style MAF sensor
Custom wiring harness
FAST 4150 throttle body
Custom built cold air intake

At this point I have gathered all of the parts listed above and the engine is in the final assembly stage. My goal is to have the engine tested and tuned on the engine dyno within the next two weeks, and then installed in my car by mid June. I plan to post updates, and pictures as I go along. Questions or comments on this build are always welcome. I have always picked up good information here, now I thought it would be a good time to share my project. This is the first forum I have posted on so bear with me.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/lstechb.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/lstechc.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/lstechd.jpg

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http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/lstechf.jpg

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http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/lstechh.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/lstechi.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1techj.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1teckl.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1techn.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1techl.jpg

flash911
05-01-2012, 06:53 PM
I did something very similar, and it should be a great engine! Your cam choice looks interesting. You went higher on the duration, lower on the lift than I did.

What year Camaro? How did you hear about Vaporworx? Do you know Carl? He's running One Lap as we speak...:)

Che70velle
05-01-2012, 08:01 PM
Nice job! What accessory drive brackets are those? Im looking for something like that. Simple and sweet. I've ran the KRC stuff previously, without any problems. I know Ken personally. Great guy.

DaleTx
05-01-2012, 11:25 PM
I did something very similar, and it should be a great engine! Your cam choice looks interesting. You went higher on the duration, lower on the lift than I did.

What year Camaro? How did you hear about Vaporworx? Do you know Carl? He's running One Lap as we speak...:)
Glad to hear you had good results with a similar setup! I found out about the Ricks tanks and the vaporworx setup when I went to the SEMA show a couple of years ago. I called Carl last year and he was great to work with. I ended up getting the CTS-V fuel pump with 380lph output. Carl recommended this pump when you get over 600HP. Nice setup. We will be testing the vaporworx digital controller and CTS-V fuel pump when we run the engine on the dyno.

The engine builder selected the cam for this build. Can't wait to see how it runs.

The engine will be going in my 1969 Camaro.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1techm.jpg

DaleTx
05-01-2012, 11:57 PM
Nice job! What accessory drive brackets are those? Im looking for something like that. Simple and sweet. I've ran the KRC stuff previously, without any problems. I know Ken personally. Great guy.
Scott, I'm glad to hear that you've had good results with the KRC power steering pumps. I have always had problems with my stock power steering pump boiling over when I do the track days events. I'm hoping this solves the problem.

The alternator bracket and power steering pump bracket were made by nutter racing engines. They manufacture lots of parts for LS engines. I purchased the accessory brackets and the dry sump 4 stage pump kit from them. Good stuff. email: ac@nutterracingengines.com

DaleTx
05-02-2012, 12:21 AM
I am hoping that with the right cam; tune, and air intake setup I can get good results with the single plane 4-barrel TB setup. I know I’m going to give up some mid-range power but should gain HP on the top end. I have some extra room under the hood so I thought I would explore the potential of this set up just to try something different.

I have built a couple of different cold air intakes to duct air into the 4-barrel throttle body for testing on the dyno. One setup is an extreme velocity pro series elbow into 4” O.D. tubing with a GM card style MAF sensor; then 5” O.D. tubing connected to a cone style air filter. The second setup is a complete custom air intake made with some purchased parts and some homemade parts; then 4” O.D. tubing with a GM card style MAF sensor; then 5” O.D. tubing connected to a cone style air filter. The second setup will have a lower profile than the first.

The goal is to achieve smooth air flow over the MAF sensor and smooth air flow into the 4-barrel TB. Also, I have the option to do a cowel induction air intake set-up with this engine but this would not allow use of the MAF sensor. This setup would require a speed density tune. I would rather see if we can make the MAF tune work. Lots of options, we’ll see.

If anyone has experience with this type of setup, or any comments or ideas about this build I’m open for discussion, thanks.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1techu.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1techq.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1techp.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1techr.jpg

S2VYSS
05-02-2012, 05:25 AM
Great build, cant wait to see the finished results

DaleTx
05-02-2012, 02:45 PM
Great build, cant wait to see the finished results
Thanks.... As soon as the wiring harness comes in the engine will be on the dyno, and I will post up the results.

I expect the harness to be in any day now....

DaleTx
05-02-2012, 03:19 PM
On this build I decided to go with a 4.125" bore x 4.0" stroke sleeved LS2 block. Below is a shot of the underside of the block with the sleeves installed, and a shot with the pistons installed.

The 4.125" bore allowed the use of the LS7 heads. Originally I was going to use hand ported L92 heads with stainless valves..... but ended up doing the LS7 heads (that snowball thing!). When I went to the LS7 head I opted for the titanium valves since this is what they were originally designed to run.

Also... we are running bee-hive springs. comments? good results, bad results?

I am really curious to find out how the LS7 cnc ported heads run. The engine builder did a similar engine (427ci LS3 hand ported heads with an LS intake and similar cam) and made 630HP, can't remember the torque number.



http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/050.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/IMG_1897.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/IMG_1899.jpg

-TheBandit-
05-02-2012, 03:25 PM
I can't tell what your last CAI picture is of, but it reminds me of an idea I'd really like to see; filterless 14" snorkel style air cleaner with the snorkel ingegrating a card MAF and connecting to a 4" duct out to a hidden cone filter under the fender. It would have a completely retro look to it while incorporating EFI. Internally I would use an elbow like your carb hat elbow so there isn't a tone of volume added inside the 14" diameter. May not really fit with your build, but I just like the idea.

Che70velle
05-02-2012, 03:33 PM
Thanks for the link. Email is sent.

flash911
05-02-2012, 04:58 PM
Glad to hear you had good results with a similar setup! I found out about the Ricks tanks and the vaporworx setup when I went to the SEMA show a couple of years ago. I called Carl last year and he was great to work with. I ended up getting the CTS-V fuel pump with 380lph output. Carl recommended this pump when you get over 600HP. Nice setup. We will be testing the vaporworx digital controller and CTS-V fuel pump when we run the engine on the dyno.

The engine builder selected the cam for this build. Can't wait to see how it runs.

The engine will be going in my 1969 Camaro.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1techm.jpg

Nice car! I went w the CTS-V set up and digital controller as well. Not cheap, but you will have no fuel starvation issues at all.

Here's my motor:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/1512451-new-ls7-build.html

And my 69:
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac52/flash911/Build%20Thread/2012-04-06_11-33-32_843.jpg

You should head over to Lateral-G.net and Pro-touring.com! You'll be right at home there :burn:

S10xGN
05-02-2012, 08:08 PM
Here's a graph of my "paper tiger" engine as I am planning it out. So far, it's a 4.07 x 4.10 L-92 motor with Patriot 2.08" valve cathedral port heads, a Victor, JR intake with 40# injectors and a 1200 CFM throttle body. Cam is a small off-the-shelf Comp solid roller with 235°/240° and 0.646"/0.641" on a 113°. Mine intentionally peaks at 6,000, so it would appear that there is more to be had in your combo, at least on paper...

DaleTx
05-03-2012, 12:23 AM
I can't tell what your last CAI picture is of, but it reminds me of an idea I'd really like to see; filterless 14" snorkel style air cleaner with the snorkel ingegrating a card MAF and connecting to a 4" duct out to a hidden cone filter under the fender. It would have a completely retro look to it while incorporating EFI. Internally I would use an elbow like your carb hat elbow so there isn't a tone of volume added inside the 14" diameter. May not really fit with your build, but I just like the idea.
Yes, we are on the same line of thinking....a filterless 14" snorkel style air cleaner with the snorkel integrating a card MAF and connecting to a 4" duct out to a hidden cone filter under the fender. However.... rather than put a hidden elbow inside the chamber I have built a part that fits inside the chamber and reduces the volume. The part has similar features to a velocity stack. see photos below.

I plan to test the extreme velocity pro series elbow and the air cleaner style set up when we test the engine on the dyno. I will plumb a vacuum gauge into the 4" O.D. tubing to compare the two set ups at various RPM's. I'm not sold on the elbow set up yet. Not sure how well a 90 degree elbow works on a NA set up (with no head of pressure like on a boost set up). I want to minimize restriction of air flow and turbulence as much as possible. Anyway it will be worth a try to see how each set up works with the MAF tune.

This picture should show the inside of the chamber better.


http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech102.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech103.jpg

DaleTx
05-03-2012, 12:53 AM
Nice car! I went w the CTS-V set up and digital controller as well. Not cheap, but you will have no fuel starvation issues at all.

Here's my motor:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/1512451-new-ls7-build.html

And my 69:
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac52/flash911/Build%20Thread/2012-04-06_11-33-32_843.jpg

You should head over to Lateral-G.net and Pro-touring.com! You'll be right at home there :burn:
Thanks.... You're car looks great! very nice. I'll keep an eye out for your thread to see how you come out on the LS7. Good luck with your build.

DaleTx
05-03-2012, 01:13 AM
Here's a graph of my "paper tiger" engine as I am planning it out. So far, it's a 4.07 x 4.10 L-92 motor with Patriot 2.08" valve cathedral port heads, a Victor, JR intake with 40# injectors and a 1200 CFM throttle body. Cam is a small off-the-shelf Comp solid roller with 235°/240° and 0.646"/0.641" on a 113°. Mine intentionally peaks at 6,000, so it would appear that there is more to be had in your combo, at least on paper...
Nice combination. Good luck with your build! Thanks for posting the graph for comparison. The single planes do make good power throughout the range when set up right.

DaleTx
05-04-2012, 12:37 AM
The engine was installed and run on the dyno today... :burn::burn:

Results of day one tuning:
Peak Torque: 571 @ 5,400 RPM
Peak Hp: 670 @ 7,000 RPM

The horsepower curve was very smooth... we ran up to 7,300 RPM and the power was just starting to taper off. Torque was at 508 lb-ft at 3,500 rpm.

Very happy with the results so far. The engine was run with a speed density tune and pump gas (92 octane). We tested the CTS-V fuel pump and vaporworx digital controller at the same time. The pump maintained a solid 58 psi through out the run.

The CNC ported LS7 heads are very good. I will post up graphs and video over the next couple of days.

Cheers!


http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech108.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech109.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech105.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech104.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech106.jpg

dr ls7
05-04-2012, 04:36 AM
Curious as to how it would go with a set of 2 inch headers?

DaleTx
05-04-2012, 10:09 AM
The engine was installed and run on the dyno today... :burn::burn:

Results of day one tuning:
Peak Torque: 571 @ 5,400 RPM
Peak Hp: 670 @ 7,000 RPM

The horsepower curve was very smooth... we ran up to 7,300 RPM and the power was just starting to taper off. Torque was at 508 lb-ft at 3,500 rpm.

Very happy with the results so far. The engine was run with a speed density tune and pump gas (92 octane). We tested the CTS-V fuel pump and vaporworx digital controller at the same time. The pump maintained a solid 58 psi through out the run.

The CNC ported LS7 heads are very good. I will post up graphs and video over the next couple of days.

Cheers!


http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech108.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech109.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech105.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech104.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech106.jpg
The headers used for the dyno run are 1-3/4" stepped to 1-7/8". I will be running a set of 1-7/8" Kooks headers with LS7 flange in the car.

I will inquire to see if we can run the 1-7/8" Kooks while the engine is on the dyno. My headers may be to narrow to fit though.

Che70velle
05-04-2012, 10:26 AM
Congrats on those numbers! Wow! You will pick up a little with 1 7/8 headers. That thing wants to breathe. Nice job!

DaleTx
05-04-2012, 10:36 AM
Congrats on those numbers! Wow! You will pick up a little with 1 7/8 headers. That thing wants to breathe. Nice job!
Thanks.... can't wait to do some more runs this afternoon! :burn:

Che70velle
05-04-2012, 10:46 AM
Yeah, let us know how it goes!

DaleTx
05-05-2012, 04:39 PM
I spent part of the day Friday with Brian at Nutter Racing Engines to watch some dyno pulls on my new engine, and to help test the different cold air intake set ups I had built. I wanted to find out how the cold air intakes performed to help decide which set up to use in the car.

By the end of the day Brian had the tune dialed in! The baseline tune was done using a speed density tune with an open 4 barrel TB (no air intake or filter setup). The tune came out great and the engine ran strong!

Here's a recap on engine details:

427CI LS2, 4.125" bore x 4.000" stroke
GM LS7 single plane intake with port fuel injection setup (58# injectors)
Fast 4 barrel TB
GM LS7 heads,CNC ported,titanium intake valves,T&D 1.8 rockers
Custom CAM, 247/255 @ 0.050 112 lobe separation
Forged crank and forged pistons, ~11.5:1 compression
NRC 4 stage dry sump oil pump
GM CTS-V fuel pump (380lph) with Vaporworx digital control
fuel pressure 58psi
fuel for test, Chevron 92 octane pump gas

Here are the dyno results and a couple of graphs:

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynonumbers2a.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynograph2a.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynograph1a.jpg

I was very pleased with the results! this is exactly what I was looking for. The LS7 heads were impressive. They just flat performed from low rpm all the way up. We ran it up to 7,200 to 7,400 all day long with no hint of valve train instability.

Now on to the big suprise!

When we bolted up the 90 degree elbow on the throttle body and made a pull the peak Hp dropped by 70!!. The peak Hp was only 598.

Next we bolted on the homemade snorkel set up. Peak Hp was down by 35. The peak Hp was 635..... not as bad but still not good.

For the last test we put on a 14" round air filter with a 4" wide K&N element. The peak Hp was 660.... we only lost 10Hp, not bad. I'll give up 10 Hp but not 35 or 75!

At this point the elbow is going on the shelf. I learned that the elbows do not work well on a naturally aspirated set up. I knew going in that elbows are mostly used with boosted engines now I know why...they need a head of pressure to work properly (my educated guess).

Lastly.... the CTS-V fuel pump and Vaporworx controller worked flawless. The idea of this setup is that the voltage to the pump increases or decreases depending on the demand for fuel from the engine. When my engine was at idle the controller was putting out 7 volts to the pump. When the engine was wide open at 7,200 RPM the controller was putting out 10.9 volts. I know now that this set up easily supports 670 Hp.

The other advantage of this set up is there is no return line so the fuel is not constantly recirculating and heating up. Cooler fuel, more power... good in my book.

Here are some pictures of the cold air intakes and the fuel tank set up I was talking about.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/elbowsetup.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/snorklesetup.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/ls1tech108.jpg


On monday I'm going back for some more dyno runs and I will take a video to post up on youtube. I was amazed to hear this engine run.... it was so smooth and revved so effortless. I can't wait to get it in the car!

Cheers! :burn:

ringram
05-06-2012, 03:58 AM
Intake looks nice, Im wondering if you are compromising design a bit by retaining the maf. You should be able to fuel fine without it and perhaps even obtain better throttle response.

If the intake design would be similar either way then cool. SD does not restrict your intake design.

DaleTx
05-06-2012, 12:42 PM
Intake looks nice, Im wondering if you are compromising design a bit by retaining the maf. You should be able to fuel fine without it and perhaps even obtain better throttle response.

If the intake design would be similar either way then cool. SD does not restrict your intake design.
That's true, I was trying to design the cold air intake to accommodate the MAF sensor which is calibrated for a 4" (100mm) diameter tube, and I was trying to keep the volume in the chamber down. I didn't realize that a speed density tune could provide better throttle response. Thanks for that bit of information. All the the engines I have done in the past have been carburated.

For the next step I will design a new cold air intake that has more volume at the throttle body chamber, and less restriction where the tube connects to the chamber. I will design the intake to allow better airflow, and plan to test with a SD tune.

sixt9er
05-06-2012, 01:05 PM
What pistons (part number) are you using for your build? I, too am working on a project similar to yours, for my 1969 Camaro. My project includes a dry-sleeved, LS2 block, CNC-ported L92 heads, Pat G. Spec cam, looking to purchase a 4.0" stroke crank shaft. It will be a 427 CID engine, with a Edelbrock Victor Jr. 4 bbl intake, with a 4150 type throttle body on top.

machinistone
05-06-2012, 10:35 PM
What pistons (part number) are you using for your build? I, too am working on a project similar to yours, for my 1969 Camaro. My project includes a dry-sleeved, LS2 block, CNC-ported L92 heads, Pat G. Spec cam, looking to purchase a 4.0" stroke crank shaft. It will be a 427 CID engine, with a Edelbrock Victor Jr. 4 bbl intake, with a 4150 type throttle body on top.

Depends upon what you want your final compression to be, he used the K463X125 pistons which are a -2.8cc, I have a dry sleeved 427 going together that we're using either those or the K395X125 pistons on which are -8cc depending upon the final chamber cc and deck height as there's also a .005" diff. in compression height.

DaleTx
05-07-2012, 12:17 AM
What pistons (part number) are you using for your build? I, too am working on a project similar to yours, for my 1969 Camaro. My project includes a dry-sleeved, LS2 block, CNC-ported L92 heads, Pat G. Spec cam, looking to purchase a 4.0" stroke crank shaft. It will be a 427 CID engine, with a Edelbrock Victor Jr. 4 bbl intake, with a 4150 type throttle body on top.
We used Weisco forged pistons part number K463X125 as posted by machinistone. My engine is set up for ~11.5:1 compression ratio. The crankshaft is a Manley LS Pro Series light weight forged crank. The crank is set up for a 24 tooth reluctor. The connecting rods are Manley H-beam.

Good luck with your build.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/054.jpg

obZidian
05-07-2012, 12:36 AM
Not bad... 500rwhp++ is a good start. :)

Any pics of the engine in the car?

DaleTx
05-07-2012, 09:47 AM
Not bad... 500rwhp++ is a good start. :)

Any pics of the engine in the car?

The engine is still on the dyno today. I'm going to test one more cold air intake if time allows.

Pumba
05-07-2012, 03:19 PM
I spent part of the day Friday with Brian at Nutter Racing Engines to watch some dyno pulls on my new engine, and to help test the different cold air intake set ups I had built. I wanted to find out how the cold air intakes performed to help decide which set up to use in the car.

By the end of the day Brian had the tune dialed in! The baseline tune was done using a speed density tune with an open 4 barrel TB (no air intake or filter setup). The tune came out great and the engine ran strong!

Here's a recap on engine details:

427CI LS2, 4.125" bore x 4.000" stroke
GM LS7 single plane intake with port fuel injection setup (58# injectors)
Fast 4 barrel TB
GM LS7 heads,CNC ported,titanium intake valves,T&D 1.8 rockers
Custom CAM, 247/255 @ 0.050 112 lobe separation
Forged crank and forged pistons, ~11.5:1 compression
NRC 4 stage dry sump oil pump
GM CTS-V fuel pump (380lph) with Vaporworx digital control
fuel pressure 58psi
fuel for test, Chevron 92 octane pump gas

Here are the dyno results and a couple of graphs:

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynonumbers2a.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynograph2a.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynograph1a.jpg




Great Job with your build and the testing you did on the dyno! :usa: :cool:

One thing I would talk to your dyno operator about is the correction factors that he applied to your power run. SAE has not used a barometer of 29.92 inches of Mercury and 59 degrees F since 1989.

Today's SAE correction factors are 29.53 inches of Mercury at 77 degrees F.

DaleTx
05-08-2012, 02:33 AM
Great Job with your build and the testing you did on the dyno! :usa: :cool:

One thing I would talk to your dyno operator about is the correction factors that he applied to your power run. SAE has not used a barometer of 29.92 inches of Mercury and 59 degrees F since 1989.

Today's SAE correction factors are 29.53 inches of Mercury at 77 degrees F.




Thanks for the compliment.

I was happy with the results of the build when looking at the numbers and the graphs. The Hp curve was very linear and smooth from the bottom all the way up to the 7000+ RPM range. The torque curve looked good also... the torque held on a long time and was still over 500 lb-ft at 7000 RPM. The engine idle was set at 1050 RPM and sounded sweet! Bryan said this engine would idle below 1000 RPM with no problem. I am very happy with the engine builders cam choice :thumb:

Engine build specs:
427 CI LS2, 11.5:1 compression, CNC ported LS7 heads, LS7 single plane intake with port fuel injection, 4 barrel TB, cam 247 255 @ 0.050, 112LSA, 4 stage dry sump oil pump.

Final results (92 octane pump gas):
Peak Hp: 672 @ 6900 RPM
Peak Torque: 566 @ 5500 RPM

Avg HP: 610 (4800 to 7100 RPM)
Avg Torque: 540 (4800 to 7100 RPM)

I have an interesting engine comparison I will post up tomorrow. The same cam listed above in a 427 CI LS2 with hand ported LS3 heads, LS intake, and slightly higher compression (over 12:1). This engine was built before mine and went into a full time race car.....

:burn::burn::burn:

dr ls7
05-08-2012, 08:02 AM
Did you get to try 1 7/8in or 2 in headers

DaleTx
05-08-2012, 10:39 AM
Did you get to try 1 7/8in or 2 in headers

I have not been able to test the 1-7/8” headers yet. Yesterday we did more pulls with the 1-3/4” to 1-7/8” stepped headers. The next engine to go on the dyno is waiting for a wiring harness so I might have more time. If I have a chance to test the 1-7/8” headers I will. That would be a good test to see if there is a difference.

Right now I’m thinking about what setup to use for the cold air intake. The elbow is out…. my home made cold air intake worked pretty good but still restricted the airflow quite a bit. Any ideas for modifying the design of the cold air intake? Thoughts on MAF tune vs SD?

briannutter
05-08-2012, 10:26 PM
Stout numbers! that thing pulls long and wide. You're going to have to get used to shifting at 8000rpm!

AC Nutter is cool as hell. We've always joked about him being my long lost uncle. Then found out his son is named Brian. What are the odds of having two Brian Nutters doing LS development? :)

DaleTx
05-08-2012, 10:32 PM
Well I finally figured out how to post videos.

Engine dyno video.... open 4 barrel throttle body, 3500 to 7300 RPM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vfKPg3rElM

I am in the process of trying to modify the homemade cold air intake to get more airflow. I'm planning to give up on the MAF setup and use SD tune.

DaleTx
05-08-2012, 10:45 PM
Stout numbers! that thing pulls long and wide. You're going to have to get used to shifting at 8000rpm!

AC Nutter is cool as hell. We've always joked about him being my long lost uncle. Then found out his son is named Brian. What are the odds of having two Brian Nutters doing LS development? :)

Hey Brian Thanks....I remember meeting you a couple of years ago at SEMA. You had your corvette down there running in the optima challenge I think. We talked about some pistons.
Yeah AC is very cool... It has been a great experience working with him!

DaleTx
05-10-2012, 12:37 AM
When I first started my build I wasn't sure if I wanted to use an LS intake with mono blade throttle body, or go with a single plane w/4 barrel throttle body.

I ended up going with the single plane w/4 barrel throttle body to try something different, and I knew I could get the higher RPM and Hp I wanted.

For anybody trying to make the same decision here is a comparison between my engine with the single plane intake, and another engine with the LS intake. both engines are 427 CI (4.125" bore x 4.0" stroke) and we both used the same cam. The LS intake engine was built just before mine in the same shop. I asked for a printout of dyno numbers so I could compare the setups and learn something.

It's not complete apple to apple comparison... the bottom ends were similar but mine had CNC ported LS7 heads 11.5:1 compression and the other engine had hand ported L92 heads and slightly higher compression (over 12:1). Both engines used the same cam though: 247/255 @ 0.050 112 LSA.

Here is the results:

427 with LS intake (numbers and graph)
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynonumbers3a.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynograph3a.jpg



427 with single plane intake (numbers and graph)
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynonumbers2a.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/dynograph1a.jpg

Same cam, way different results. These engines would have completely different feel in the car. For me the higher RPM and Hp is a good fit for what I want to do with my car.... manual trans, 3:73 rear gears, 3400 lbs, driven on road courses (track day events).

Bryan0092
05-11-2012, 09:50 PM
Great write up Dale.

DaleTx
05-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Great write up Dale.

Thanks!


I plan on picking up the engine this week if all goes well. The engine testing and tuning is done. The only hold up is the engine builder is waiting for my custom wiring harness to come in. They want to test the harness before I pick up the engine. This weekend I started getting things ready for the install so I’ll be ready to go when the engines done. The engine is out of my car…I just need to get the wiring in order and start planning for the plumbing for the dry sump pump and tank.

Since I am increasing from 450Hp to 670Hp I had to make other changes to the car to make sure everything is sized to handle the extra power. For the clutch I decided to go with a Corvette ZR1 twin disc clutch and an aluminum flywheel. The aluminum flywheel offsets some of the extra weight of the ZR1 clutch. The clutch has been modified to increase grip 20 percent over stock. This clutch should be good for well over 800Hp. I have read good reviews on this set up…. we’ll see… I’ll put it to the test ;)

The twin disc clutches I’ve used in the past worked good on the street, but they didn’t hold up very well with any abuse. If the clutch got overheated even once, the floater discs warped. When the disc warped then the clutch would lose grip and not disengage properly. I’m tired of fighting the clutches so this time around I spent the extra money for the ZR1 clutch. The floater disc in the ZR1 clutch is 3 times thicker than my old clutch (old floater disc ~0.25” thick, ZR1 floater ~0.75” thick). I don’t think this one will warp. It’s hard to beat the OEM stuff.

Here's a few misc pictures of the car, the old clutch, the new clutch, and flywheel.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-12134357.jpg
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-12134500.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-13100336.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-12190217.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-12190449.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-12184314.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-12184242.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-13091702.jpg

aluminum flywheel
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-12184036.jpg

Looking forward to putting the car back together.... once I get the engine things should go pretty fast :cool:

Jimbo1367
05-13-2012, 02:30 PM
Sweet dude. You are gonna have one bad ass car!!!

DaleTx
05-13-2012, 10:53 PM
Sweet dude. You are gonna have one bad ass car!!!

Thanks... can't wait to see how the car feels wound up to 7K!! Need to get this thing done and find out...

S2VYSS
06-13-2012, 02:51 AM
Any updates?

blown4now
06-13-2012, 10:07 AM
He's probably out having too much fun to post up! I know I would be!

DaleTx
06-14-2012, 01:38 AM
Hey guys... yeah I wish I was out driving the car... unfortunately the engine is still in the shop waiting for my custom wiring harness. The harness was ordered 3 months ago and is now six weeks past due. The harness is supposed to be here this week so if all goes well I will pick the engine up this Saturday.

Since my last post I have been working on the dry sump tank and plumbing. I ordered a Stef's dry sump tank that will be mounted in the trunk area. The tank is 3 gallon with 16AN fittings for return and 16AN into 12AN for the pump. I put the tank in the right side of the trunk area for better weight distribution and to keep things clean under the hood.

Also, I am working on setting up the ZR1 twin disk clutch with mechanical linkage instead of hydraulic, custom electric fan mount for the radiator, and cold air intake (cowel induction set up). I decided to go with cowel induction setup and a speed density tune for maximum HP. The two maf set ups I made were too restrictive.

When I get the engine back I'll post up some pictures of the install, the dry sump system, and cowel induction setup.

:cheers:

Jimbo1367
06-16-2012, 12:42 PM
Hey guys... yeah I wish I was out driving the car... unfortunately the engine is still in the shop waiting for my custom wiring harness. The harness was ordered 3 months ago and is now six weeks past due. The harness is supposed to be here this week so if all goes well I will pick the engine up this Saturday.

:cheers:

Damn. Talk about being late. Glad I didn't use your harness guy. Anyone us 'tech'ers know?

DaleTx
12-05-2012, 01:32 AM
The rainy season is here now, so it’s a good time to follow up on this build thread. Since the last post in June I have finished installing the engine, trans, dry sump oil system, cooling, electronics, wiring, instrumentation and exhaust. I’ve had the car on the road since August and have several thousand miles of street driving, and some track time. During a track day in September I ended up seizing up 3rd gear on the main shaft of my Muncie transmission (the rear end locked up at about 80 mph).

It was a huge project to switch from the original carburated small block to the Gen IV LS engine. More than I imagined (time and money). The dry sump oil system added quite a bit of extra time to do all the plumbing. I’ll go through the process of installing the engine, computer, dry sump system…. and show pictures of how everything fit together.

I learned quite a bit about the dry sump system (tank installation, filters, and venting) for anyone interested in going to a dry sump.
In the end it has been totally worth it, I got what I was looking for. The new engine is amazing in comparison to the old small block. The engine starts easy, runs smooth, and the difference in power and acceleration is night and day difference :D


http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-26204131.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-30112323.jpg

Tight fit with trans
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-30113646.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-30195701.jpg

Grr
12-05-2012, 12:11 PM
If you have the room you would probably pick up 20hp adding a spacer to the throttle body

DaleTx
12-05-2012, 02:54 PM
Thanks, I'll give it a try.... I should be able to fit a one inch spacer.

DaleTx
12-05-2012, 04:06 PM
If you compare the new LS engine to my old 450HP carbureted small block. There is a difference of over 200 HP…. It is an absolute kick to drive now… whole different experience! There are no flat spots, no surging, no problems in hot weather. I should have done this conversion a long time ago. I will never go back to a carb set up.

The engine has smooth linear power from off idle to redline. The LS7 heads are great. They have a very unique sound when you get on it. I was worried about streetablity with the larger cam and single plane intake… no problem, very smooth and easy to drive.

I ended up going with a speed density tune.... no maf for now.

DaleTx
12-05-2012, 07:56 PM
Aluminum flywheel and clutch install.

I have not used an aluminum flywheel before... there are some extra steps you have to take when installing. Since aluminum expands at a greater rate than steel.... the bore is a little bit tighter than on a cast iron or steel flywheel (the aluminum flywheel will not fit on the crank when cold). The manufacturer (Katech) recommended to heat the flywheel prior to installing on the crank.

I heated the flywheel up to about 250 degrees in the oven and then I was able to slip it on the crank... this worked good.

(sorry for the large pictures in the previous post... I got lazy and didn't re-size.... this size is better!)
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-23192241.jpg


I purchased some ARP 12 point high strength bolts to attach the flywheel and they did not allow enough clearance for the clutch. I ended up having to buy the stock GM flywheel mounting bolts... they have a lower profile. The ARP bolts were just too close for comfort. The ARP bolts are shown in the picture.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-23194936-1.jpg


This time around I spent a bit of extra money and got a Corvette ZR1 twin disc clutch. On my previous build I used a Mcleod twin disc clutch. The Mcleod worked good for a while but as soon as it saw any abuse (slipping) and heated up, the floating disc tended to warp. When the floater disc warped then the clutch would slip under hard acceleration and also it became difficult to shift gears because the clutch would not disengage all the way. I went through three of these clutches in two years (had to be rebuilt... hassel).

So far the ZR1 clutch is proving to be the best clutch I've ever had. The floater disc is about 3 times thicker than the Mcleod unit. This does make the clutch heavier..... that's why I went with the aluminum flywheel to offset the extra weight. This new setup works great. Absolutely no slippage and a great feel.... very smooth.... no chatter whatsoever.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-25191613.jpg


Bell housing installed with mechanical linkage.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-25193341.jpg


Muncie transmisssion with heavy duty Autogear Supercase. The Autogear case is sturdier than the original case and rated for higher horsepower. I ended up siezing up this trans the first time on the roadcouse with the new engine. Previously I have done dozens of events with the old smallblock. When you add horsepower you find the weak link.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-25193738.jpg


Thats all for now... next up will be the steam vent plumbing, radiator and fan set up. Hopefully this information is useful. I know I have picked up lots of info here on this site so now I am giving something back!

:drive:

DaleTx
12-06-2012, 01:19 AM
I did a lot of research on here and other sites regarding the steam vent plumbing. The steam vents are a nice feature on the LS block. On the gen 1 I used to take out the plugs on the front of the intake manifold when filling the block to let the air bleed out.

On the new engine the rear two vents are blocked off. On the front two vents I used 4 AN fittings (one 90 deg and one "T") then ran stainless braided hose over to the left fender.... through the core support and then over to the low pressure side of the radiator tank. I had an aluminum bung welded in two inches below the top of the tank for 1/8 pipe thread.... then I used a 4 AN fitting to complete the plumbing.

When I filled the engine with coolant you could hear the air come out of the tube as the block filled up. Once I topped off the fluid and put the cap on it was good to go. I never had to add any more fluid. The engine is angled back about 2.5 degrees (lower in the back) so I don't think it's a problem to plug the rear vents. Any air pockets should form at the front of the block.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-05212023.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-05212049.jpg


As a side note!!: Be sure to use the right size pressure rated hose for the pressure side of the power steering pump!! IT turns out that the stainless braided lines I used are rated for 1000 PSI, and the KRC power steering pump requires a 2,250 PSI rated hose (on the pressure side). When I had the car out on the road course last September the fluid was dripping out when I got back to the pits. The hose was barely hanging on. This was a big mistake on my part and I could have had a major fire if the hose had come off. The loose hose end was right next to the header. The new hose (black one) is rated at 2,500 PSI.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-05212223.jpg


The hose on the upper right is the steam vent line and goes to low pressure side of the radiator and the line on the left comes from the vent on the valley plate. A little over kill on the air vent tank and filter but I already had the tank and mounting bracket so I used it. This engine actually pulls a vacuum because of the dry sump pump.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-05212257.jpg


This is a shot of the bung I had welded into the low pressure side of the radiator tank.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-05212749.jpg

I am new to setting up the LS engines, so if anyone sees any errors in this set up please let me know. I am always open to learn something new. Feel free to add information or pictures about your steam vent plumbing in the thread or any other information.

SlowFRC
12-06-2012, 03:14 PM
Aluminum flywheel and clutch install.

I have not used an aluminum flywheel before... there are some extra steps you have to take when installing. Since aluminum expands at a greater rate than steel.... the bore is a little bit tighter than on a cast iron or steel flywheel (the aluminum flywheel will not fit on the crank when cold). The manufacturer (Katech) recommended to heat the flywheel prior to installing on the crank.

I heated the flywheel up to about 250 degrees in the oven and then I was able to slip it on the crank... this worked good.

(sorry for the large pictures in the previous post... I got lazy and didn't re-size.... this size is better!)
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-23192241.jpg




Lol, I like this idea. I take it you're single?

DaleTx
12-06-2012, 10:25 PM
Lol, I like this idea. I take it you're single?

I had to sneak that one in... she'll never know, Lol

DaleTx
12-07-2012, 12:38 AM
For this engine build I had the engine built from the ground up 100% complete from purchased parts. The engine builder started with a bare aluminum LS2 block and then did the machining and installed the sleeves. Then the rest of the engine was assembled including the dry sump pump system, electronic sensors, wiring harness and ECU.

I put together the fuel supply system; CTSV fuel pump and Vaporworx digital fuel pressure controller... then I built a test stand with a 12 volt power supply, voltmeter, and fuel pressure gauge. When the engine was ready to go on the engine dyno I brought in the fuel tank and pump set up.

The engine was then tested and tuned on the dyno exactly as it would be set up in the car. I was able to measure the fuel pressure and voltage to the pump from idle up to redline at 7,400 rpm. I tested the fuel system while Brian Nutter put the engine through testing and dialed in the tune.

This was a great way to go..... I wanted to make sure once the engine was installed there would be no issues. It's just too much work to find out there is a problem after the install. When I cranked the engine for the first time after the install it fired instantly... no issues.



Here is a shot of the engine and fuel system during testing on the engine dyno
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-01162529.jpg

Fuel tank plumbed to engine with volt meter, digital controller, and pressure gauge
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-01162447.jpg

When I have done engine projects in the past I have always assembled the engine in the garage... roughed in the tune in the driveway and on the street, and then done the final tuning on a chassis dyno. Doing everything up front on the engine dyno was a great way to go! Not only is the engine tuned properly... but the engine is also broken in and rings seated.


When I got the engine home I installed the ECU and fuel pump controller. I had labeled all the wires before we disconnected the engine from the dyno. This made it easy to make all the connections in the car. Here is a shot of the wiring harness installed inside right front fender and routed to firewall and behind the engine

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-07-22120606.jpg

Home made ECU and fuel pump controller mount
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-07-22112837.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-07-22123053.jpg

The next post on here will cover the installation of the 4 stage dry sump pump, oil pan plumbing, remote dry sump tank and plumbing, remote oil filter, and breather system.

Installing the dry sump system in the car was a lot of extra work. I wanted to make sure that the engine always has a good oil supply whether I'm driving on the street, or on the track. The dry sump system worked out great. I run 5-30 weight synthetic oil (3 gallons). The oil pressure runs just under 60 psi while driving and jut under 40 psi at idle.


4 stage NRC dry sump pump
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-08-04081006.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-26141637.jpg

DaleTx
12-07-2012, 01:03 AM
Lol, I like this idea. I take it you're single?

By the way...nice Viper... I like the stance.

SlowFRC
12-07-2012, 04:29 PM
By the way...nice Viper... I like the stance.

Thanks, it was about 3/4" lower when I got it but it was just too much of a pain to drive so I raised it a bit. Best combo of ground clearance and looks IMO right now.

Check my old threads, I've got one with a bunch of pics if you want to see more.

DaleTx
12-16-2012, 04:56 PM
Going to a dry sump oil system on this build added quite a bit of extra $, and extra work to install. If I planned to only drive the car on the street I would have opted for a wet sump system. Since I will be running my car on the street and road courses (track day events) I opted for the dry sump system. The dry sump set up should make the engine live longer.

The advantage of the dry sump set up is that when you get into high G cornering.… left or right hand turns.… the engine always gets a good oil supply. With a wet sump pump.... the oil pick-up can become exposed (no oil) for brief periods during hard cornering, depending where the oil pick-ups located. Providing a constant oil supply to the engine under all conditions was the main reason I went with the dry sump system.

The dry sump pump is mounted outside the engine and is driven by a cog belt off the front of the crankshaft. This required a special crankshaft with an extended nose. The dry sump pump I used is a 4 stage pump. One stage is for pumping oil into the engine, and the other 3 stage’s are for sucking the oil out of the engine and returning the oil to the oil supply tank.


This shows the extra length on the front of the crank for the cog belt drive.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-16122532-1_zpse1fafab8-1_zps770be5b5.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15135523-1_zpsb4563229.jpg


The line on the left is the pressure line that goes to a remote oil filter.
The line on the right is the main oil return line that goes to the oil tank in the trunk.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15133918-1_zps402ae137.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15142703-1_zps3645dbf3.jpg


The pressure line into filter is 12AN.
The pressure line from filter into engine is 10AN
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15134326-1_zps38fe039b.jpg


The oil goes into the port at the top of the block in the rear
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15134838-1_zps6d9f85dc.jpg


I plumbed in a pressure switch on the remote filter housing that will turn on a big red light inside the car if the oil pressure drops below 18 psi. If there is an oil leak or any other problem with oil pressure I will know right away. With this set up I don't have to monitor the oil pressure gauge while driving. I used the same size light as I used for the shift light.

DaleTx
12-16-2012, 06:46 PM
Another advantage of a dry sump pump system is that there is no oil sloshing around inside the oil pan. The dry sump pump creates a vacuum inside the crankcase and sucks the oil out that gathers at the bottom of the pan. My set up has two oil pick-ups on the left side of the pan, and one on the right side. Whether I’m in a hard left hand turn or hard right hand turn, the oil gets picked up and returned to the oil tank.

This set up also keeps oil from splashing up on the crank counterweights while cornering or braking. No windage tray or crank scraper is required. Keeping oil off the crank is also good for a little extra HP…. I'll take it :D

My engine builder (A.C. Nutter) provided a custom oil pan for my engine designed to fit my car. I took the measurements and they built the pan. They purchased a Canton fabricated aluminum oil pan, modified it, and then added the bungs for the oil pick-ups.



http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-26140650-1_zps56b9e251.jpg

Installed in car... Right side oil pick up.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-16124340-1_zps872ee89d.jpg

Left side oil pick ups
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-16124645-1_zps485385bc.jpg

The pan has a nice low profile and fits up above the sub-frame cross member and steering tie-rod.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15150323-1_zps43b8dd4d.jpg

adamantium
12-16-2012, 07:52 PM
Awesome build!

DaleTx
12-16-2012, 08:13 PM
Awesome build!

Thanks!

DaleTx
12-16-2012, 08:18 PM
Later this week I'll post the installation of the dry sump oil tank in the trunk of the car.... and all the plumbing. I went through several variations on venting the tank before I found out what worked the best.

Please chime in anytime on this thread... I am open for discussion, comments, different ideas, or what ever is related. Thanks.

I know when I first decided to put the oil tank in the trunk I could not find too many similar threads... most people were relocating the battery to the trunk and putting the dry sump tank in the engine compartment. Putting the tank in the trunk cleans up the engine compartment. So far the trunk set up has worked great.... the plumbing was a huge job though.


http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15132619-1-1_zps14570e95.jpg

DaleTx
12-22-2012, 12:51 AM
Next up... plumbing from the 4 stage oil pump to the oil supply tank.

This picture shows the two oil lines... 16AN to 12AN pressure line.... and 16AN return line that run the length of the car. I ran the lines next to the frame rails and anchored the lines every couple of feet. The lines are flexible braided stainless.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-08-10154429-1_zps188a76ac.jpg



The lines go up through the floor of the trunk to the oil tank

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15145228.jpg



The line on the upper right is the oil return line (oil from engine). This line has a screen filter plumbed in that keeps any debris from getting into the tank. The pressure line is on the bottom right of the tank. This line feeds the dry sump pump. The line on the upper left is the tank vent. This line goes into a reservoir that has a drain petcock on the bottom.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15132619-1-1_zpsc1387b35.jpg


The vent reservoir has a line on the back that loops up and then goes to a bulkhead fitting on the trunk floor... to a breather.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-15132704-1-1_zps308d5db6.jpg


Here is a shot that shows the breather from underneath the car. This set up works great... no fumes in the car.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-18195344.jpg


I bought the dry sump tank from Stef's. They were easy to work with and built the tank to match my specs. The tank holds 14 quarts of oil when half full. The tank is engineered with special baffles to de-aerate the oil before it is pumped back into the engine. It's a good quality well designed tank.

Going to a dry sump oil system for this build was a lot of extra work! The benefit is that the engine will always have a good oil supply... even under hard cornering conditions on the track. I can drive the car hard on the track with no worries about oiling. I use 14 quarts of 5-30 wt synthetic oil in the tank. When the engine is up to temperature the oil pressure runs @ 60 psi while driving and 40 psi @ idle.



Question about the exhaust..... I went with 1-7/8" headers to a 3-1/2" collector... to 3" exhaust... to a 3" X-pipe... to 4" round Magnaflow mufflers to 2-1/2" tail pipes. The tailpipes are leftover from my last build. Would there be a benefit to switch to 3" tailpipes...or should I leave it alone?

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-08-10154508-1_zps54a957a5.jpg


Next up, I'll show some pictures of the instrument layout... some safety stuff (4 pt roll bar, 5 pt belts, seats). After that I will do a start up and idle video... and then a driving video :D

DaleTx
12-23-2012, 08:54 PM
For anyone following this build that is thinking about doing a dry sump oiling system for their engine and they have a newer car with a gen III or IV engine… I have a bit more information to add. For my gen I Camaro I had to mount the cogged pulley that runs the dry sump pump in front of the crank damper so the dry sump pump would clear the engine mounts on the frame.

If you have a newer car…. you have the option to mount the cogged pulley behind the crank damper since the engine mounts are further back. If this is the case then you may not need a crank with an extended nose (I'm not sure). I know you can buy kits to mount the cogged pulley on the back of the damper for newer Camaros, GTO's, and Corvettes. Also... if you don’t have a lot of room you could get a three stage pump (shorter than a 4 stage) and this would be easier to fit in the car and easier to do the plumbing.

A four stage pump has one pressure section and three scavenge, a three stage pump has one pressure section and two scavenge. If I had it to do over I may have used the three stage pump. The three stage pump is more compact and there would have been less plumbing. The three stage pump would have provided adequate oiling. The advantage of the 4 stage pump though…. is that it creates a higher vacuum level in the engine and gives you a little more power potential.



This is a mock up I did before installing the engine in my car to check the oil pump fit. This shows how much further forward the engines mounts are on a 69 Camaro. This is why I had to mount the cog drive for the pump on the outside of the damper.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-02-12181517-1_zpsb6e60908.jpg



Here is a shot showing the cog gear mounted on the back of the damper. This is a 427 LS engine ready to go into a race car. This guy used a 4 stage pump also. The cogged pulley is mounted behind the damper.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/059_zps224119dd-1_zpsc976ba23.jpg


Here is a shot of my engine showing the cog pulley mounted in front of the damper.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-21192800-1_zpsc1722edd-1_zps1b3983f0.jpg



One more thing on the plumbing... It was pretty overwhelming after I got the engine in the car to figure how to do all the plumbing. For this project I converted all the plumbing from rubber hose to braided stainless hose with AN fittings. All the hoses had to be made.

I broke the plumbing down in smaller chunks. Oil pump to engine; pump to oil tank; PS pump to steering box; radiator to engine; steam vents to radiator… then I finished plumbing each section before moving on to the next. This worked well and I was able to get the job done without making a lot of mistakes. There are so many different hose sizes and fitting types it would have been difficult to try to figure it all out up front.

I came up with a system… I determined each hose size required and hose end type… then worked with a local company to build the hose with a fitting on one end and some extra hose length. Then I would mount the hose in the car… route the hose… and then mark a cut line for the hose final length. Then I would bring the hose back to the vendor and have the second end put on the hose. I slowly worked through all of the plumbing sections and after about three weeks in my spare time I finished the plumbing.

I had a professional cut and assemble the hoses because I didn’t know how to do it myself. If I did this again I would probably make my own hoses now that I have a better understanding.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-08-01164643-1_zps89f9d5c3.jpg

DaleTx
12-24-2012, 02:53 PM
Previously in this thread I tested different cold air intake set ups while the engine was on the dyno to see how different designs affected performance. I wanted to test and tune the engine on the dyno exactly the same as it would be in the car. I didn’t want to go with the single plane intake and 4 barrel TB if I couldn’t get good airflow when the engine was in the car.

I put together three different cold air intakes for testing. Here is a recap of the results and then some pictures of the cold air intake set up I ended up using.


Set ups that were tested:
A. Extreme Velocity Pro Series 4150 elbow… into 4” O.D. tube x 15” long… result: 672HP dropped to 598HP

B. Home-made velocity stack on a drop base with Spectre shroud… into 4” O.D. tube x 15” long… result: 672HP dropped to 637HP

C. 4” tall x 14” diameter K&N air filter on a drop base… result: 672HP dropped to 662HP




I ended up using a 3" tall x 14" round K&N, with the open filter top. This setup works good. I built the shroud from thin mild steel..... this winter I will make a new one from aluminum.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-22122050-1_zps2b329edd.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-22122600-1_zpsc7aa1552.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-22164715-1_zps331a1884.jpg

Draws cold air in at the base of the front window
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-22124430-1_zpsf33d30b7-1_zpsf5eb11ac.jpg


Have a great Christmas :cheers:

Grr
12-24-2012, 03:26 PM
man that thing is a show car, very clean i like it

DaleTx
12-26-2012, 01:08 AM
man that thing is a show car, very clean i like it

Thanks for the compliment. I noticed in your sig that you are running an LS3 with super vic/4150… Got any pics or more info about that… sounds interesting.

Grr
12-26-2012, 08:08 AM
yes im running cathedral heads and a super victor on a LS3 block, nothing special just something to mess with

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc192/Grrh77/CAM00344.jpg

DaleTx
12-26-2012, 02:56 PM
yes im running cathedral heads and a super victor on a LS3 block, nothing special just something to mess with

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc192/Grrh77/CAM00344.jpg
Grr, Nice build... I'm thinking of doing a similar combo to yours for a Vega drag car I've been working on. Aluminum LS1... cathedral heads...single plane intake...very similar to your build. What brand of 4B TB is that?



My next project car (drag only car)... swap out the iron 355 carburated sb for aluminum LS1 port FI. This car has a full cage and spool axle, all it needs is more power.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/060_zps54f8e3b2.jpg

Grr
12-27-2012, 09:16 AM
Last year I had this head/cam setup and a LS1 intake on a stock bottom end, It was great I highly recommend it. Made around 440whp but the switch to the super victor never happened, which would have easily put it well over 500whp IMHO

The TB is a 1200cfm billet unit from Accel, was $325 shipped on sale

Look at race-mart.com for your next build, its by far the best pricing you will find. I think I have saved about $500 over what it would cost at summit on this build

BTW im assuming that vega will end up around 2800# with driver and LS1, with my motor from last year even with the LS1 intake it would probably run a 9.9x or 10.0x

adamantium
12-27-2012, 12:51 PM
^Race-mart, are they legit? Ive always wanted to buy from them cause everything is so cheap but i haven't found any reviews on them so ive been avoiding it.

Grr
12-27-2012, 01:03 PM
I have ordered a bunch of stuff and it all shows up just like its supposed to. No Blem's either. The Accel TB for instance showed up in the factory sealed Accel labeled box.
Just the hose and fittings to go from the stock feed line to edelbrock rails I ordered last week I saved $52 on vs summit. The black-friday to christmas coupon was 5% off your entire order so I spent over $500 this month

adamantium
12-27-2012, 01:20 PM
Damn thanks for the heads up, there about 4-5 hours from me so shipping should be pretty quick.

DaleTx
12-27-2012, 09:26 PM
Last year I had this head/cam setup and a LS1 intake on a stock bottom end, It was great I highly recommend it. Made around 440whp but the switch to the super victor never happened, which would have easily put it well over 500whp IMHO

The TB is a 1200cfm billet unit from Accel, was $325 shipped on sale

Look at race-mart.com for your next build, its by far the best pricing you will find. I think I have saved about $500 over what it would cost at summit on this build

BTW im assuming that vega will end up around 2800# with driver and LS1, with my motor from last year even with the LS1 intake it would probably run a 9.9x or 10.0x

Thanks for the info on the Accel TB... good price. The Fast TB I used on the Camaro cost about $550 and was rated at 1375 cfm.

A previous owner of the Vega ran in the 10's with a 350 CI small block with nitrous. Your right in there with your time estimates with the 440whp LS engine. The car is super light (says 2,189 LBS on the title). The Vega project will be on the back burner until next winter.

DaleTx
12-27-2012, 10:48 PM
Since I have increased the power level in the Camaro beyond what it was originally designed for, I modified the chassis, suspension, and brakes to handle the extra HP and improve the stability. The chassis has significant modifications to increase stiffness and improve handling. The brakes have been upgraded to larger diameter 4-wheel disc brakes. I went to larger diameter wheels with high performance tires. With the improvements… the car is stable under acceleration/braking and feels solid at all speeds. With a 4 speed (no overdrive) I have run the car well into the 130 MPH range on the road course with no issues and no fears...



I added a 4-point roll bar with a cross bar...5-point seat belts for driver and passenger, and performance seats with side support (seats make a big difference over stock).

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-22123401-1_zps39097073.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-22123328-1_zps32756df3.jpg


Nitto NT01 track tires (street legal, 100 tread wear)
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-12141043-1_zpsde7f6ff2.jpg


"Baer Track" brakes, 13" diameter x 1-1/8" wide, vented, four corners
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-12194853-1_zpsee11c160.jpg



For anyone thinking about getting their car out on a road course…. I highly recommend it. There is no better way to find out what your car will do in terms of acceleration, speed, and cornering… legally :D. I started doing the High Performance Driver Events (HPDE) at my local track about four years ago. This is a perfect outlet for anyone who wants to learn how to drive, and get their high performance street car out on the track.

There's nothing like getting strapped tight in the car, and going around the road course full on with big HP and great handling... it is intense! To me this is what it’s all about. Building the engine, modifying the car, and then going out on the track pushing everything to the limit…. That first time out on the track makes all the hard work worthwhile.

Tomorrow I'll do the engine start up & idle video... I also plan to do a video at the track this spring with the engine peaked out.

studderin
12-28-2012, 12:05 PM
Great build

I looked it over but you couldn't run the oil tank in the front? I'm sure you did the pros and cons on the rear mount. And what did you have to change in system for the pump, pumping the extra 16-20feet and back?

DaleTx
12-28-2012, 03:31 PM
Great build

I looked it over but you couldn't run the oil tank in the front? I'm sure you did the pros and cons on the rear mount. And what did you have to change in system for the pump, pumping the extra 16-20feet and back?

Thanks.

Yeah, I put the oil tank in the trunk because I wanted to keep things clean and simple under the hood… and I wanted to mount the ECM and the fuel pump Digital Controller up front behind the battery for easy access (hate working under the dash). Most of the time when guys put the oil tank up front the battery gets relocated to the trunk to make room. Having the battery in the stock location, and having easy access to the ECM & DC is nice. Also, the cool air coming in from the front of the car keeps the ECM & DC cool. Keeping the electronics cool is good.

The dry sump pump pressure section on my pump is designed for the same output whether the oil tank is under the hood, or in the trunk. The advantage of putting the tank in the trunk is that you are not limited on the size of the tank. De-aerating the oil in a dry sump system is important…. the larger the tank is the more time available to de-aerate the oil. The dry sump pump manufacturer (NRC) recommended a 3-4 gallon tank minimum for the trunk set up since I had the room.

The pump kit came with a schematic for the plumbing of the dry sump system. The schematic called for the “Scavenge out” line 12AN - 16AN (from pump to tank) and the “Pressure in” line 12AN minimum (from tank to pump). I went with 16AN on the "Scavenge out" to the oil tank, and 16AN from oil tank to the halfway point on car… then reduced to 12AN to the dry sump pump inlet at the engine.

I ran the car on the street or several thousand miles this summer and I ran one HPDE event on the track. No problems… the dry sump system maintained pressure and worked perfectly.


You can see here where the 16AN line from tank to pump is reduced to 12AN about half way down.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-12-18195655-1_zpsb82d7b33.jpg

DaleTx
12-29-2012, 01:04 AM
Here is a cold start up & engine idle video from today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtK18KQ4ZN4

DaleTx
12-29-2012, 11:25 PM
On this build I went with T&D shaft rockers (1.8 ratio). The rockers worked out great, nice stuff. The problem was trying to find valve covers that cleared the rocker arms. The stock LS valve covers would not clear.

I bought some 1/2" spacers thinking this would solve the problem. The engine builder tried to make the spacers fit... but there was so much interference we just decided to try something else.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-15163023_zps3a05b717-1_zps2bf32d41.jpg



Next I bought a set of the new Holley LS valve covers. These looked great and had some extra depth but there were baffles inside that interfered with the rocker arms.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-15163205_zpse17e0af5-1_zpsf4895ef0.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-05-15163217_zps554aa11e-1_zps92194215.jpg



Finally I found some cast aluminum valve covers on the Katech website that had extra depth. These proved to be a good design and cleared the rockers with no modifications.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-24164354-2_zps5c9942ec.jpg


The rockers arms were very close to the o-ring sealing surface on the high side of the head. The Katech valve covers were offset slightly to allow for clearance on the rockers while still sealing.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/2012-06-23150031-1_zps78865f08.jpg


I want to do an in car driving video. Does anyone have a recommendation for a camera that works good? My Cannon powershot does not pick up the engine sounds very well (not a very good mic). I saw one video that displayed g-forces on the screen while recording, not sure who makes that one.

DaleTx
12-30-2012, 05:07 PM
Here is a driving video from today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOecia2qX9g

DaleTx
01-03-2013, 09:15 PM
I did this custom engine build to try something different, and see what the engine builder could do with a set of Z06 LS7 heads and the GMPP LS7 single plane intake set up with port fuel injection on a LS 427” engine. Most guys on this site are running the LS or Fast intakes on the Gen IV heads with great results (big HP, strong mid-range, and very street friendly)… there are lots of good threads here testing different cam designs for this set up.

I wanted to achieve the same thing but was willing to give up a little mid-range to have a higher RPM potential, and higher peak HP with the single plane set up. I was not looking for the biggest number on the dyno though. For this build the goal was for good “average torque” and “average HP” over the entire RPM range. I wanted the power to roll on smooth from the bottom, and have a long wide power band. I didn’t want it to hit to hard all at once. No way did I want a cam that made a big HP number but was low on torque and didn’t make power until 4K.

This project took about 12 months to build the engine; dyno test and tune the engine; test cold air intakes; test the fuel system; and install the engine in the car. I had the engine built by a professional and I did the engine and dry sump install in the car.

Final Results:
Peak HP was 672 @ 6,900 RPM. Peak torque was 566 @ 5,500 RPM. From 3,600 RPM to 7,200 RPM the average power was 542 HP, and the average torque was 526 lb-ft. The torque was 500 lb-ft starting at 3,600 RPM and was still at 500 lb-ft at 7,000 RPM!! I was happy with the results for the single plane set up. There were no big spikes or dips in the dyno graph. The power & torque were very linear. I know A.C. was prepared to try different cam grinds on this build, but I was happy with the first one he came up with :thumb:

The one thing that doesn’t show on the dyno sheet is the performance from idle to 3,500 RPM. I was concerned about this and didn’t know how the engine would feel in the car. I can say now that it is strong and smooth from idle all the way up to the 7,400 RPM limiter, there are no flat spots. From 5k to 7k it is unreal power… accelerates very hard.

When I did an HPDE event last September on a two mile road course with a tight chicane, I was able to run the whole track using only 3rd and 4th gear (no over drive). The engine pulled 3rd gear from low RPM coming out of a very tight chicane with no problem (most cars shifted into 2nd on this corner). On the long straights it pulled smoothly up to 6-7K. The strong performance of the engine on the track was the true test to me.

In the end after all the testing with this combo on the dyno, we found out that the 90 degree elbow cold air intake set up killed power big time on my engine. I would say if you have a good method to get air into the intake with minimal restriction, then the single plane works great. I ended up using a cowl induction hood set up drawing the air straight into the TB. The single plane breathes really well this way and distributes incoming air very evenly to the cylinders through the 4 barrel TB. If you want the extra RPM and power on top then the single plane works well with the right combination of heads, cam, TB, and cold air intake. I run an SD tune on this set up.

Not sure what I would change if we could do more testing… maybe try a 110 LSA rather than a 112 LSA on the cam? I know there was a lot of thought put into this… the 112 LSA worked out great though. I’d be curious what the difference would be with ported L92 heads versus the ported LS7 heads?

Thanks to A.C. Nutter for designing and building this custom engine, and Bryan Nutter for the awesome tune, perfect :thumb:. Also… Thanks to A.C. & Bryan for testing the different air intakes and fuel system.


Engine dyno video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vfKPg3rElM

Under hood & idle video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtK18KQ4ZN4

Short driving video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOecia2qX9g


I'm done with my build & install now. Please add to this thread with info about your LS build with a single plane intake set up (cold air intake set up, TB used, intake used, heads & cam). I’d like to find out about other set ups and results good or bad. Also... please add any information on dry sump pump set ups and oil tanks/plumbing.

:cheers:

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/CSCC10x11-G3b_151wZF-6202-78874-1-004_zps720d3d58-1_zps0acb6f32-1_zps3a062fda.jpg

DaleTx
06-24-2013, 02:49 PM
I have not posted on here for a while since I finished the engine build thread. This past winter I replaced the old 4 speed Muncie with a new T56 Magnum transmission. Now I have the proper transmission to go with the new engine.

Last week I got the car out on the track with the new engine and trans set up. Here is a 9 minute long in car video I took out on the track with the new set up. The engine performed well and I'm happy with the results. The engine has a nice long wide powerband and pulls hard. I ran it up to about 6K on the front and back straights... about 125 mph. The peak power is at 6,900 rpm so I still had more in it... I just need to work my way up to get comfortable with the speed.

69 Camaro, testing the new LS engine and T56 Magnum trans, part 1 - YouTube

DaleTx
06-24-2013, 11:09 PM
Here is some pictures of the engine installed

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/june%202013/8f8f51ee-ae50-4dc0-8ad6-8ed88a33ae42_zpse6844c7d.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/june%202013/8f8f51ee-ae50-4dc0-8ad6-8ed88a33ae42_zpse6844c7d.jpg.html)

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/june%202013/june162013027700x525_zps313292c2.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/june%202013/june162013027700x525_zps313292c2.jpg.html)

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/june%202013/june162013026700x525_zps845fd826.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/june%202013/june162013026700x525_zps845fd826.jpg.html)

The single plane intake set up works good on the street and the track. If you have room for the single plane it is a good setup. With the single plane the mid range drops slightly, but the power on the top end is better.



One more video of the new engine on the track last Friday. I ran out of gas on the back straight on the last lap (5:18) and coasted all the way back to my parking spot in the pits!

69 Camaro, testing the new LS engine and T56 Magnum trans, part 2 - YouTube

CarlC
07-02-2013, 12:04 PM
You ran out of gas? Could you tell if any was left in the tank?

DaleTx
07-03-2013, 12:50 AM
You ran out of gas? Could you tell if any was left in the tank?

The fuel tank was completely empty. When I got back to the pits I added fuel and the car started right up. My fuel mileage with the new 427" engine was 3 mpg while out on the track. The fuel consumption was a bit of a surprise. I ran four 25 minute sessions on the track and used two full tanks of gas.

With my old engine (450 hp 350") I would use about 1-1/4 tank of gas to run four 25 minute sessions. Now I know I can't go out with anything less than 1/2 a tank of fuel. The fuel pump and controller worked fine.

LSX67RS/SS
07-10-2013, 08:42 AM
Dale, I read through your post once again for inspiration....again thanks for the great detail....although one question, are you using a hyd roller or a solid roller. and if you're using a solid roller are you adj lash frequently?

DaleTx
07-10-2013, 11:48 PM
Dale, I read through your post once again for inspiration....again thanks for the great detail....although one question, are you using a hyd roller or a solid roller. and if you're using a solid roller are you adj lash frequently?

Thanks... I am using a hydraulic roller on this build and it has worked out great. Also, I am running light weight valve train including titanium intake valves. The engine was run up to 7,400 rpm on the engine dyno, and the valve train was stable with the hydraulic roller set up.

I have run solid rollers in the past but they do require quite a bit more maintenance. When I ran the solid roller I would check the lash about 2-3 times per season.

Jimbo1367
07-12-2013, 01:26 PM
Thanks... I am using a hydraulic roller on this build and it has worked out great. Also, I am running light weight valve train including titanium intake valves. The engine was run up to 7,400 rpm on the engine dyno, and the valve train was stable with the hydraulic roller set up.

I have run solid rollers in the past but they do require quite a bit more maintenance. When I ran the solid roller I would check the lash about 2-3 times per season.

So what rockers, lifters and cam lobes did you use?

thanks,
Jim

DaleTx
07-14-2013, 10:47 AM
So what rockers, lifters and cam lobes did you use?

thanks,
Jim

Hey Jim, The rockers are T&D shaft rockers 1.8 ratio. Ill try to find out more info about the cam and lifters that Nutter used. I've been running the engine hard for about a year now with no issues.

Jimbo1367
07-14-2013, 06:25 PM
DaleTx,
Thanks. Bad ass car.

redlineit
11-12-2013, 09:54 PM
DaleTx,
Thanks. Bad ass car.

X2. :thumb:

Mikelly
12-14-2013, 04:35 AM
Wanted to chime in and let you know that because of this thread, I actually bought a drysump pump and drive system from Nutter Racing. I was on the fence but AC worked with me on my questions and was a great guy to deal with. Mine is going on a 403 Stroker LS3 in a 1975 Datsun 280Z track car.

Mike

DaleTx
12-16-2013, 07:33 PM
Wanted to chime in and let you know that because of this thread, I actually bought a drysump pump and drive system from Nutter Racing. I was on the fence but AC worked with me on my questions and was a great guy to deal with. Mine is going on a 403 Stroker LS3 in a 1975 Datsun 280Z track car.

Mike

Hey Mike that's great... AC is a good guy, and has lot's of experience with the dry sump systems. Post up some pictures of your Datsun 280Z track car project here. I would like to see pictures of the car and the dry sump set up if you have them.

:thumb:



Update on my engine build:
Recently I had a failure of my timing chain tensioner (LS3 style). I caught the problem before having any catastrophic failure. I have since replaced the LS3 style "tensioner" with the LS2/LS7 style "dampener".


Here are some pictures of the failed part
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/sept222013003_zps0a2cbb88.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/sept222013003_zps0a2cbb88.jpg.html)

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/sept222013001_zpsfdf66874.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/sept222013001_zpsfdf66874.jpg.html)

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/sept222013002_zps03651cee.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/sept222013002_zps03651cee.jpg.html)


I'm not sure how long I ran my engine with the broken tensioner. This last summer I ran the car at several HPDE events. If you watch the youtube video I posted (testing the LS engine part 1) you can actually hear the sound of the broken tensioner parts sliding back and forth and clinking on the side of the oil pan when I go into the corners!

Since having the failure I have done some research and found out some other guys have had the same problem. Evidently the tensioners do not hold up very well on engine builds using larger lift cams. If you are running a larger lift cam with more aggressive lift, then I would recommend going with the LS2/LS7 style timing chain "dampener". From what I have read, that is the fix.

Here is a picture of the LS2/LS7 style "dampener"
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/399_zpsd4fd9f0a.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/399_zpsd4fd9f0a.jpg.html)

My engine builder replaced the "tensioner"with the "dampener" and also replaced the timing chain. The car is back together now and running good. I am lucky that I did not break a timing chain. Just an FYI for the guys on here.

:cheers:

67SS509
12-22-2013, 09:22 AM
Glad you shared this build. Great stuff! My LS7 is almost identical to yours right down to the intake and throttle body. Only difference is I have a 400hp direct port and compression is 12:1.

Couldn't find where you stated lift on your cam? Mine is 64X/65X with about the same duration as yours and 112LSA. My best RWHP NA thru a locked converter was 556. Have you ever had yours on a chassie dyno?

redefined
12-23-2013, 09:27 PM
Great motor build and awesome looking car. Sexy engine bay!

I'm still new to the V8 world so here is my question. Why stick to a Carb and not go fuel injection?

Exidous
12-24-2013, 01:43 PM
It is FI. It's a single plane intake and throttle body.

DaleTx
12-28-2013, 06:49 PM
Glad you shared this build. Great stuff! My LS7 is almost identical to yours right down to the intake and throttle body. Only difference is I have a 400hp direct port and compression is 12:1.

Couldn't find where you stated lift on your cam? Mine is 64X/65X with about the same duration as yours and 112LSA. My best RWHP NA thru a locked converter was 556. Have you ever had yours on a chassie dyno?

Talked to Nutter today and he said the valve lift is .667". What lift are you running? I have not run the car on a chassis dyno... just the engine dyno.

Great motor build and awesome looking car. Sexy engine bay!

I'm still new to the V8 world so here is my question. Why stick to a Carb and not go fuel injection?

Thanks... Like Exidous said... the engine is FI. I'm running a FAST 4 barrel TB, and single plane intake with port fuel injection.

So what rockers, lifters and cam lobes did you use?

thanks,
Jim

Hey Jim... I know this is an old question.... but I talked to Nutter today and he said the rockers are T&D 1.8 ratio... the lifters were LS7, and the valve lift was .667". However... the the lobe type, and duration was confidential. I know he put a lot of time in designing the cam so I respect that. He said the custom cam used in my 427 is available for sale through his shop.





I made a new air filter base to utilize the cowl induction hood... wanted to draw in cold air from outside the engine compartment.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/august42013025_zps8cb211fb.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/august42013025_zps8cb211fb.jpg.html)

IAT sensor in the rear
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/august42013030_zps0805dc75.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/august42013030_zps0805dc75.jpg.html)

Found a better sealing material recently
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/c838958a-d0f8-41dd-bb1e-85decd74c83a_zps299dea12.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/c838958a-d0f8-41dd-bb1e-85decd74c83a_zps299dea12.jpg.html)

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/august42013046_zps7cbbcfe3.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/august42013046_zps7cbbcfe3.jpg.html)

The engine ran fine when I pulled the hot air from under the hood... but runs a bit better drawing in outside air with the cowl induction set up.

LSX67RS/SS
12-29-2013, 09:01 AM
Dale, looks great but we're expecting nothing else from you at this point....what did you start with when building the base? I'm looking to do something very similar but was wondering what options are out there.

thanks again....

Jimbo1367
12-29-2013, 11:13 AM
Dale,
Tanks for the reply. I can respect the designer doesn't want to give his R&D away. Thanks for asking. Have you ever considered checking for the infamous LS7 bad valve guides ? You may not get this IF*** it's a byproduct to OEM rockers.


thanks
Jim

DaleTx
12-29-2013, 04:17 PM
Dale, looks great but we're expecting nothing else from you at this point....what did you start with when building the base? I'm looking to do something very similar but was wondering what options are out there.

thanks again....

No problem... I purchased a bare LS2 block that had been freshly sleeved and machined with a 4.125” bore (Nutter had a program going where he was selling sleeved LS blocks on ebay). Then, the engine was built from scratch at his shop. The LS7 heads were purchased from GM in the raw form, and then machined complete; valve guides, CNC porting, etc.

All the machine work and assembly was done under one roof. Through this build method I was able to choose all the parts based on my budget. I had several meetings with the engine builder to talk about parts... and make choices. I spent the extra $’s for forged internals, shaft rockers, and light weight valve train (titanium intake valves) and a dry sump oiling system since I planned to track the car a lot.

I used a LS1 ECM, LS1 sensors, and had a custom wiring harness made to fit my set up. This was the first engine I have had built from scratch… and it was a fun process and worked out well. The final tune was done on the engine dyno. I highly recommend doing the engine break-in and tune on an engine dyno if possible.

Good luck with your engine build...

Dale,
Tanks for the reply. I can respect the designer doesn't want to give his R&D away. Thanks for asking. Have you ever considered checking for the infamous LS7 bad valve guides ? You may not get this IF*** it's a byproduct to OEM rockers.


thanks
Jim

Thanks Jim. On the valve guide question…. my guides are good, and I’ve had no issues with excessive wear. I’ve got several thousand street miles, and six track days with no problem.

I have read that some guys are having problems with excessive wear on the valve guides. When I asked the engine builder, he said it just comes down to proper machining and set up on the heads.

LSX67RS/SS
12-30-2013, 11:06 AM
[QUOTE=DaleTx;17914689]No problem... I purchased a bare LS2 block that had been freshly sleeved and machined with a 4.125” bore (Nutter had a program going where he was selling sleeved LS blocks on ebay). Then, the engine was built from scratch at his shop. The LS7 heads were purchased from GM in the raw form, and then machined complete; valve guides, CNC porting, etc.

All the machine work and assembly was done under one roof. Through this build method I was able to choose all the parts based on my budget. I had several meetings with the engine builder to talk about parts... and make choices. I spent the extra $’s for forged internals, shaft rockers, and light weight valve train (titanium intake valves) and a dry sump oiling system since I planned to track the car a lot.

I used a LS1 ECM, LS1 sensors, and had a custom wiring harness made to fit my set up. This was the first engine I have had built from scratch… and it was a fun process and worked out well. The final tune was done on the engine dyno. I highly recommend doing the engine break-in and tune on an engine dyno if possible.

Good luck with your engine build...



Sorry, my mistake I wasn't clear in my question....I'm already down the road for engine build should have it in the test cell by March...I was specifically asking about the base of the air cleaner...I'm using the Mast single plane 4500 bore and hood clearance is an issue.

DaleTx
12-30-2013, 10:30 PM
Sorry, my mistake I wasn't clear in my question....I'm already down the road for engine build should have it in the test cell by March...I was specifically asking about the base of the air cleaner...I'm using the Mast single plane 4500 bore and hood clearance is an issue.

I used a Moroso 1" drop base and then welded on a custom made shroud. The shroud was made from .030" thick sheet metal. I cut out a ring for the bottom part and then roll formed the metal around the outside. The hardest part was trying to make it fit under the hood and seal evenly.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/august42013004_zps8eff8007.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/august42013004_zps8eff8007.jpg.html)

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/august42013003_zps32d5233a.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/august42013003_zps32d5233a.jpg.html)


I mounted the IAT sensor in the back
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/august42013027_zps453643d3.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/august42013027_zps453643d3.jpg.html)


I used an "Allstar" Performance brand 2" tall aluminum spacer on top of the throttle body to get the clearance I needed for the throttle lever arm.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/5580ed72-a014-4774-98ed-1ff62871dfd8_zpsb98b6a61.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/5580ed72-a014-4774-98ed-1ff62871dfd8_zpsb98b6a61.jpg.html)

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/sept292013a002_zps39010aa1.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/sept292013a002_zps39010aa1.jpg.html)

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/sept292013a001_zpse41cdb55.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/sept292013a001_zpse41cdb55.jpg.html)

This shows the measurement from the valley cover to top of air filter. I went with the GM LS7 single plane because it was about 1/2" shorter than the Victor. Not sure what the height of the Mast is.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/sept292013a010_zpsad92af91.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/sept292013a010_zpsad92af91.jpg.html)


It was a tight squeeze... but I was able to run a 14" diameter x 3" tall air filter element. I went with the K&N filter top to get a bit more air flow since I couldn't fit a 4" tall element.

D9HP
12-31-2013, 03:50 PM
Do you believe you're realizing any performance gain by using that 2" spacer?

LSX67RS/SS
01-01-2014, 10:00 AM
It was a tight squeeze... but I was able to run a 14" diameter x 3" tall air filter element. I went with the K&N filter top to get a bit more air flow since I couldn't fit a 4" tall element.[/QUOTE]



Thanks a bunch Dale....I've created a bit more work for myself selecting the Mast intake...as you can see I'm at 8" before TB or any type of spacer..I've got my work cut out for me.....

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk174/e071307/IMG_0132_zps44a333cf.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/e071307/media/IMG_0132_zps44a333cf.jpg.html)

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk174/e071307/IMG_0131_zpsdac579e8.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/e071307/media/IMG_0131_zpsdac579e8.jpg.html)

DaleTx
01-01-2014, 10:53 PM
Do you believe you're realizing any performance gain by using that 2" spacer?

I doubt it would make a difference in performance with or without the 2" spacer. I had to put the spacer in to get clearance between the air filter base and throttle linkage. On the FAST TB the throttle lever sticks straight up.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/jan12014021_zps1f79067d.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/jan12014021_zps1f79067d.jpg.html)

Thanks a bunch Dale....I've created a bit more work for myself selecting the Mast intake...as you can see I'm at 8" before TB or any type of spacer..I've got my work cut out for me.....

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk174/e071307/IMG_0132_zps44a333cf.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/e071307/media/IMG_0132_zps44a333cf.jpg.html)

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk174/e071307/IMG_0131_zpsdac579e8.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/e071307/media/IMG_0131_zpsdac579e8.jpg.html)


The Mast intake looks great. Look forward to seeing the results on your build.

FYI... I measured my GM intake and it is 5-3/4" tall.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/jan12014020_zpsbb7c7889.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/jan12014020_zpsbb7c7889.jpg.html)

My6speedZ
01-02-2014, 12:53 AM
Adding a spacer will help distribute the air better to the corner runners and add plenum volume. I've never heard of someone adding a 2" spacer and it not help things. Perhaps this is because its before the throttle body?

Jimbo1367
01-03-2014, 09:17 AM
I'd be affriad to track a car that nice. $$$$$$$

DaleTx
01-03-2014, 10:12 PM
Adding a spacer will help distribute the air better to the corner runners and add plenum volume. I've never heard of someone adding a 2" spacer and it not help things. Perhaps this is because its before the throttle body?

I did a little research on your last point. Since the 2" long pipe is before the throttle body, and the air filter base has a radius, it is similar to a velocity stack. According to Wikepedia... "The benefit of a velocity stack is to allow smooth and even entry of air at high velocities into the intake tract with the flow stream adhering to the pipe walls known as laminar flow".

So maybe the 2"tube will help to straighten the air, and reduce turbulence before the air enters the throttle body?

I'd be affriad to track a car that nice. $$$$$$$

Thanks Jim! I've had the car a long time and it's great to use it rather than sitting in the garage collecting dust. It's only parts.

Jimbo1367
01-04-2014, 07:52 AM
I wasn't thinking of letting it collect dust, I'd drive the piss out of it. Just more afraid of hitting something at extreme speeds.

D9HP
01-04-2014, 06:40 PM
I doubt it would make a difference in performance with or without the 2" spacer. I had to put the spacer in to get clearance between the air filter base and throttle linkage. On the FAST TB the throttle lever sticks straight up.


Adding a spacer will help distribute the air better to the corner runners and add plenum volume. I've never heard of someone adding a 2" spacer and it not help things. Perhaps this is because its before the throttle body?

I had heard that a few places, which is why I asked.

Just wondered if he had any "butt dyno" results or anything from it.

Thanks!!

Oh - beautiful car. Sounds mean in those videos!

Bill71
02-17-2014, 11:06 PM
We used Weisco forged pistons part number K463X125 as posted by machinistone. My engine is set up for ~11.5:1 compression ratio. The crankshaft is a Manley pro series (19000) forged with an extended nose to allow mounting the cog belt drive for the dry sump pump. The crank is set up for a 24 tooth reluctor.The connecting rods are Manley H-beam.

Good luck with your build.



Dale, are you sure about the entended nose crank? I spoke with A.C. about getting one of his pump drives and he insists that I should use the short crank.

DaleTx
02-18-2014, 07:20 PM
Dale, are you sure about the entended nose crank? I spoke with A.C. about getting one of his pumpmdrives and he insists that I should use the short crank.

Bill... I called A.C. today to ask about the crank he used in my engine. The crankshaft is a Manley LS Pro-Series light weight forged crank "standard length". My crankshaft is not the "long snout version". A.C. used the standard length crank with an ATI-Super Damper, and some custom parts for mounting the cog pulley that drives the 4 stage dry sump oil pump.

He has a lot of different set-ups depending on the type of car, engine mount location, size of pump, etc. His set-up does not require the "long snout" crank. This was my mistake in the post. I will make a correction... sorry for the confusion. If you don't mind me asking... what's your project and what type of engine are you building?

Bill71
02-18-2014, 11:13 PM
It's a weekend fun car for the local NASA days here in Phoenix. I have a 1971 Camaro and am building a 427 similar to yours. I am hoping that Trick Flow will hurry up with their LS7 heads I read about last year. I've seen a lot of posts about oil control problems with these engines so I decided to go dry sump which led me to your build thread.

DaleTx
02-19-2014, 11:59 PM
It's a weekend fun car for the local NASA days here in Phoenix. I have a 1971 Camaro and am building a 427 similar to yours. I am hoping that Trick Flow will hurry up with their LS7 heads I read about last year. I've seen a lot of posts about oil control problems with these engines so I decided to go dry sump which led me to your build thread.

I read the same thing about oiling problems... and that's why I went with the dry sump set up. I have a lot of money in the engine and I want to make sure when I track the car... the engine will always have good oil pressure during hard cornering. I've tracked the car a bunch of times, and the dry sump set up works great.

Hopefully you'll post more info... I'd like to see some pics of your Camaro and more details on the 427.

DaleTx
02-20-2014, 01:31 AM
Here is a video of my last track day out at PIR back in August. Since doing this build thread I have upgraded to a T56 Magnum transmission. The T56 is a sweet tranny. This winter I am installing 6 piston front caliper brakes, a new Katech heavy duty slave cylinder kit (The GM slave failed), and a new timing chain and gear set up.

I'm having a lot of fun with the 427. The top speed in the video is 132 mph on the front straight before the chicane, and 126 mph on the back straight. Hit 7K a couple of times in the run. The engine is running real good with the single plane set up. Very smooth and linear power from low rpm to high rpm... no misses or surging.


69 Camaro, track day, Aug 9 2013, PIR - YouTube

Jimbo1367
02-23-2014, 05:54 PM
I'd be shitting myself getting THAT close to the wall.

DaleTx
02-24-2014, 10:47 PM
I'd be shitting myself getting THAT close to the wall.


Yeah... I just got the camera last summer and I was a little surprised the first time I saw the video. When I was driving it seemed liked I had plenty of room. The car feels really stable at speed and when braking so that helps. The only time I notice any problem is when I get up around 135 mph the front of the car starts to get a bit light from the air flow. The gen 1 Camaros do not have the best aerodynamics.

:cheers:

CarlC
03-03-2014, 06:13 PM
The only time I notice any problem is when I get up around 135 mph the front of the car starts to get a bit light from the air flow. The gen 1 Camaros do not have the best aerodynamics.

Yup. That's why Shipka and I did the aero gig on our cars for OLOA last year. Daytona and VIR are much faster than 135mph and neither of us was comfortable with all-stock aero.

You going to the USCA @ Portland in August?

DaleTx
03-05-2014, 10:56 PM
Yup. That's why Shipka and I did the aero gig on our cars for OLOA last year. Daytona and VIR are much faster than 135mph and neither of us was comfortable with all-stock aero.

You going to the USCA @ Portland in August?


I saw some pictures of your car with the larger front spoiler installed… looks good. Did you make any other changes to the car to improve aerodynamics? What kind of top speeds were you guys running at Daytona and VIR?

I’m going to make some changes to my front spoiler to improve the aero. I found a picture of a spoiler design that I like. It is a bit larger than a stock gen 1 spoiler and it has a flat lip around the bottom. I might try to make something similar to this one.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/_69CamaroBigRed_zps6068243b.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/_69CamaroBigRed_zps6068243b.jpg.html)

I am planning to run the USCA event @ Portland in August... are you going to run Portland, or any other USCA events?

CarlC
04-12-2014, 11:16 PM
I'm shooting for Fontana, but the drivetrain needs some work. After six years of serious abuse I really cannot complain, especially since the problem is a balky 1-2 shift, and the trans was used when it went in.

If I can make Portland it will be like a OLOA event. Drive all night, event that weekend, banzai home.

Note on Big Red's aero. The front grill is blocked off which does a good job keeping forced air out of the engine compartment. For short duty it's fine, but lots of testing should be done before trying it on a 20 minute road couse session.

The hood is vented as well. Between that and the front spoiler/splitter the car is quite stable at 155mph on Daytona, and that track is rough.

CarlC
05-11-2014, 11:15 PM
Dale, if you are ever looking to re-do the air cleaner an aluminum cake pan makes for a great housing to mount the base to. On the previous carb'ed 406 in the Camaro it worked quite well and was easy to work with. Riveting the base to the cake pan worked fine, just put the rivets in the recess of the air cleaner seal.

Mikelly
08-03-2014, 04:31 PM
I cant tell you how much I have used this project build thread to help me solve many of my own issues. So few aftermarket builds with dry sump systems have been documented, so I am limited in the help out there... Running the Nutter Racing Drysump on my Datsun Zcar LS403 build and trying to make it all work properly has been a challenge in the small S30 chassis. Getting there though!

Mike