View Full Version : Would like to setup my suspension for corner carving.


Unforgiven1
05-01-2012, 01:28 AM
To accomplish this goal of carving corners I know I'll need to change out sway bars as well as lower my center of gravity with some new springs and upgrade shocks/struts to help handle said lowering.

So far sway bars, springs, shocks/struts.

Do I need any further parts to help with this goal?

What steps/parts are taken/used to compensate for the different angles caused by the lowering?

99Bluz28
05-01-2012, 03:10 AM
Get an adjustable PHB to recenter the rear-end after lowering. Up front you'll need it re-aligned, and I'd have them dial-in about -.5* camber.

Cheezebandit
05-01-2012, 03:58 AM
To accomplish this goal of carving corners I know I'll need to change out sway bars as well as lower my center of gravity with some new springs and upgrade shocks/struts to help handle said lowering.

So far sway bars, springs, shocks/struts.

Do I need any further parts to help with this goal?

What steps/parts are taken/used to compensate for the different angles caused by the lowering?

with the swaybars shocks and springs .. make sure to get something matched.. something that will work well together.

that stuff is just a start.. you'll need some better rear suspension pieces to go along with it ,, Lower control arms and a panhard bar at the very least.

it really just depends on how much you want to spend.

UMI Sales
05-01-2012, 06:50 AM
I would start with UMI SFC's, an adjustable PHB and UMI 35/22 sways. Then top it off with the Strano/Koni combo. Then carve away.

BMR Tech2
05-01-2012, 09:26 AM
To accomplish this goal of carving corners I know I'll need to change out sway bars as well as lower my center of gravity with some new springs and upgrade shocks/struts to help handle said lowering.

So far sway bars, springs, shocks/struts.

Do I need any further parts to help with this goal?

What steps/parts are taken/used to compensate for the different angles caused by the lowering?

Hello there. I think you're looking at the right path to increase your car's handling. There are other parts to improve your car's handling out there, but shocks/springs and sway bars are a proven vehicle transformation. Koni is currently running a killer 20% off sale on their shocks, and we are packaging those with our springs at an additional $249.95 discount...I can create a custom package with sway bars and an adjustable panhard bar and save you some money there too. These parts will deliver the handling you're looking for with extremely high-quality parts and not break the bank.

HPP026
http://www.bmrsuspension.com/siteart/products/HPP026_small.jpg (http://www.bmrsuspension.com/index.cfm?page=products&vehicleid=6&maincatid=57&catid=157&productid=825)

Let me know if you have any questions!
- Kevin

Unforgiven1
05-01-2012, 11:13 AM
OK. PHB and re-alignment. LCAs were also mentioned. SFCs as well, however I've already got some BMR boxed weld-ins of that variety.

From what I've read and from looking my general understanding is that the PHB keeps the rear end centered under the body of the car via connections to the body and rear end. So an adjustable one would be desired to help you get it true center? Where as a non adjustable would get you close but maybe not spot on? Are they all adjustable? Seems weird that someone would buy one that wasn't.

LCAs appear to me to keep the left or right side of the axle from stepping out of line too much in respect to the other...as in the right side wheel position should stay the same as the left side in regards to foward and back. Correct? Why is an aftermarket piece desirable? Less flex/deflection? With a lowered vehicle is it necessary to also get the relocation brackets to get the geometry set right?

I haven't found a particular post that covers the actual basic functions of the parts so I'm just kind of needing to know. Most of the threads that I've read just suggest swapping to an aftermarket piece but not really telling what the purpose of the replacement of the pieces are. I like to know specific reasons rather than vague "it'll make it handle better". Thanks for your input in advance.

Cheezebandit
05-01-2012, 11:53 AM
OK. PHB and re-alignment. LCAs were also mentioned. SFCs as well, however I've already got some BMR boxed weld-ins of that variety.

From what I've read and from looking my general understanding is that the PHB keeps the rear end centered under the body of the car via connections to the body and rear end. So an adjustable one would be desired to help you get it true center? Where as a non adjustable would get you close but maybe not spot on? Are they all adjustable? Seems weird that someone would buy one that wasn't.

LCAs appear to me to keep the left or right side of the axle from stepping out of line too much in respect to the other...as in the right side wheel position should stay the same as the left side in regards to foward and back. Correct? Why is an aftermarket piece desirable? Less flex/deflection? With a lowered vehicle is it necessary to also get the relocation brackets to get the geometry set right?

I haven't found a particular post that covers the actual basic functions of the parts so I'm just kind of needing to know. Most of the threads that I've read just suggest swapping to an aftermarket piece but not really telling what the purpose of the replacement of the pieces are. I like to know specific reasons rather than vague "it'll make it handle better". Thanks for your input in advance.

always good to see people doing their homework ,,

the other thing you can do .. that doesn't cost as much is taking weight out ,,

2QuikTA
05-01-2012, 12:01 PM
If you have the money, skip the PHB and get a watts link

Unforgiven1
05-01-2012, 04:22 PM
always good to see people doing their homework ,,

the other thing you can do .. that doesn't cost as much is taking weight out ,,

Have taken out the useless rear seats. And I kind of effed the pooch on that cause I have an all power car. I'm gonna go ahead and keep my creature comforts I payed for. It's not gonna be an all out effort just something fun to take to a scca meet once a month. But if I do get serious I'll look for a 1LE or something and strip it down further.


If you have the money, skip the PHB and get a watts link

Have to research that one.

JD_AMG
05-01-2012, 05:01 PM
with the swaybars shocks and springs .. make sure to get something matched.. something that will work well together.

that stuff is just a start.. you'll need some better rear suspension pieces to go along with it ,, Lower control arms and a panhard bar at the very least.

it really just depends on how much you want to spend.
For handling the big three with these cars are shocks, springs and swaybars (and tires of course), everything else will make much much less of a difference.
He certainly doesn't need LCA's, the difference they make in handling is negotiable.

OK. PHB and re-alignment. LCAs were also mentioned. SFCs as well, however I've already got some BMR boxed weld-ins of that variety.
As I said above, you certainly don't need LCA's, they will stiffen up the rear end some but its far from necessary.

From what I've read and from looking my general understanding is that the PHB keeps the rear end centered under the body of the car via connections to the body and rear end. So an adjustable one would be desired to help you get it true center? Where as a non adjustable would get you close but maybe not spot on? Are they all adjustable? Seems weird that someone would buy one that wasn't.

Heres a simple GIF of a panhard bar working.
http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/Tobphotobucket/t_animated_p1.gif
Stock is a fixed length, the rear suspension moves in an arc, when it comes up it also moves toward the passenger side of the car, and when moving down it pushes to the drivers side. So when you lower the car the axle will be pushed toward the drivers side, an adjustable PHB is used to bring it back to center (by making the PHB shorter).
This is why a watts link is popular, it keeps the rear centered and has no lateral movement like the PHB setup does:
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_animated_w.gif


LCAs appear to me to keep the left or right side of the axle from stepping out of line too much in respect to the other...as in the right side wheel position should stay the same as the left side in regards to foward and back. Correct?

yes, that is basically their job, and keeping the axle from moving forward/backwards.

Why is an aftermarket piece desirable? Less flex/deflection? With a lowered vehicle is it necessary to also get the relocation brackets to get the geometry set right?

There is less flex (mostly in the bushings used). They make adjustable for fitting larger wheels and/or tires that may need to be pushed back a little for clearance.
They are not needed, and neither are relocation brackets as they are more for drag racers. You will be changing your roll center with them and may cause oversteer.
While we are on the topic of handling Ill add stay away from poly bushings in control arms, as they bind and will cause unstable/unpredictable handling.

Unforgiven1
05-01-2012, 07:53 PM
For handling the big three with these cars are shocks, springs and swaybars (and tires of course), everything else will make much much less of a difference.
He certainly doesn't need LCA's, the difference they make in handling is negotiable.


As I said above, you certainly don't need LCA's, they will stiffen up the rear end some but its far from necessary.

Heres a simple GIF of a panhard bar working.
http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/Tobphotobucket/t_animated_p1.gif
Stock is a fixed length, the rear suspension moves in an arc, when it comes up it also moves toward the passenger side of the car, and when moving down it pushes to the drivers side. So when you lower the car the axle will be pushed toward the drivers side, an adjustable PHB is used to bring it back to center (by making the PHB shorter).
This is why a watts link is popular, it keeps the rear centered and has no lateral movement like the PHB setup does:
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_animated_w.gif


yes, that is basically their job, and keeping the axle from moving forward/backwards.

There is less flex (mostly in the bushings used). They make adjustable for fitting larger wheels and/or tires that may need to be pushed back a little for clearance.
They are not needed, and neither are relocation brackets as they are more for drag racers. You will be changing your roll center with them and may cause oversteer.
While we are on the topic of handling Ill add stay away from poly bushings in control arms, as they bind and will cause unstable/unpredictable handling.

First off, thanks for the illustration. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I looked up the watts link and it seemed to make perfect sense. I'm kinda stumped as to why I don't remember seeing something about these. From a handling standpoint it seems as though they would make things a substantial amount better especially as you move over uneven terrain or bumps as compared to the traditional PHB. Now understanding the basic movements and concepts of how that moves allows me to realize that even with an adjustable PHB when the rear end is in upward or downward movement your rear will still offcenter whereas with the watts you'd constantly remain over center. Cost would be the only factor here for me. Do you have to have another mounting area welded to the underside of the body to make these work? Also, as I'm planning on Auto Xing anybody familiar if having one of these shoots me into some supercar class running with ferraris or something? That would be a tinge counterproductive.

I'll have to consider whether or not LCAs are something viable for what I'm wanting to do as I still would enjoy going to the strip just for fun every now and then. Probably my decision would be weighed based upon how much wheelhop I encountered after the lowering process. Even with a corner carver I'd like to get the thing out of the hole with minimal wheelhop...and I've seen that these cure a lot of that.

I'm seeing more and more to stay away from the poly bushings as they do cause binding in areas where you wouldn't normally want to see that. So...the other options are? Seems like most of the aftermarket are still catering to those who are still fans of the poly products. <<<EDIT>>> As I looked over this again it seems as though the poly bushing option is only bad in control arms? But are ok in other applications such as a PHB or swaybar links?

JD_AMG
05-01-2012, 08:48 PM
Do you have to have another mounting area welded to the underside of the body to make these work?

The watts link?
The Fays2 watts link I have is a bolt in kit, no welding. Got it from stranoparts, but heres a direct link to the site:
http://fays2.net/

Also, as I'm planning on Auto Xing anybody familiar if having one of these shoots me into some supercar class running with ferraris or something? That would be a tinge counterproductive.

Nope, legal for Fstock class as far as i know.
BUT running aftermarket LCA's or relocation brackets WILL bump you up a class. You can run solid rubber 1LE style bushings in the LCA's though.


I'm seeing more and more to stay away from the poly bushings as they do cause binding in areas where you wouldn't normally want to see that. So...the other options are? Seems like most of the aftermarket are still catering to those who are still fans of the poly products.

Poly is cheap, aftermarket companies can make easy profit from it.
The other option is rubber, rod end, or roto-joint (UMI has this).


<<<EDIT>>> As I looked over this again it seems as though the poly bushing option is only bad in control arms? But are ok in other applications such as a PHB or swaybar links?
PHB is arguable because of things like stiction, swaybar D bushings and endlinks are fine as they don't articulate and move around like control arms.

UMI Sales
05-02-2012, 08:16 AM
Nice job on the explanation guys.

a97transam
05-02-2012, 10:33 AM
PHB is arguable because of things like stiction, swaybar D bushings and endlinks are fine as they don't articulate and move around like control arms.

Whats your view on the LCA's with poly on the chassis end and roto-joint on the axle end? Does the roto-joint allow for sufficient articulation even with poly at the other end or is the bind of the poly still causing a problem?

Just curious....

maxgee
05-02-2012, 02:20 PM
If you have the money, skip the PHB and get a watts link

I love mine!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Watts_linkage.gif

SSCamaro99_3
05-02-2012, 02:40 PM
I was not a fan of poly bushings on my LCA's at all. Solid was good for me.

JD_AMG
05-02-2012, 04:46 PM
Whats your view on the LCA's with poly on the chassis end and roto-joint on the axle end? Does the roto-joint allow for sufficient articulation even with poly at the other end or is the bind of the poly still causing a problem?

Just curious....
Honestly I couldn't tell you, that would be a question for someone like Sam Strano. But I can't think of a reason why you would want poly bushings in the first place.

a97transam
05-03-2012, 04:12 AM
OK, Thanks,

Perhaps Sam or UMI or BMR might answer that question.

lees02WS6
05-03-2012, 09:05 AM
The mustang 3 link rear with PHB is functionally similar to the torque arm with PHB setup on 3rd gen and 4th gen f-bodies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPBIVJYw3d4&feature=related

Illustration of watts link vs phb movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8cJCqWkfgk&feature=results_video&playnext=1list=PLDF743FE48A9E9321

This is the fays2 unit, unfortunately the lighting is poor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFi9Ck5anf0

Here's a watts link, not the Fays2 watts, mounted to a truck that has the bell crank on the diff case. The functioning is similar, though you'll get arguments to which is the better placement for the bell crank (on car frame vs on the axle).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPzDGXXbwKQ

BMR Tech2
05-03-2012, 09:08 AM
Running a poly bushing on the body side can help reduce NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness) that's inevitably generated while driving across various road surfaces. Putting a rod end on the rearend side allows full range of motion for the rearend without the potential of binding that may occur from the increased rigidity of a polyurethane bushing.

Factory parts use rubber bushings which are great at flexing and absorbing NVH, but in a performance setting, that same flexing contributes to wheelhop and reduced performance. It's next to impossible to match the NVH suppression of the factory arms while still addressing the shortcomings that make the factory arms a hindrance. We typically suggest the TCA004, our poly/rod-end control arms, to customers who are looking to get the most handling out of their car and do not mind a bit more interior noise. They're my favorite LCA that we build, but the market for them isn't nearly as close to those who are running poly/poly and are happy with those for street/strip driving and mild handling duties.

If you have any questions, let me know.
- Kevin

99Bluz28
05-03-2012, 12:39 PM
The Fays2 is a great piece, but if you run a 3.5" or larger over axle pipe and are lowered +1.2" or even with a 3" pipe if lowered more than +1.5" you will have clearance issues with the passenger side axle tube clamp That's why I went with a dumped exhaust setup yrs ago. As much as I hated to do it I went back to a PHB so I could run a quieter exhaust with having installed H/C/LT headers last year. Having a PHB doesn't mean your car won't handle great, you just won't be able to push your handling limits (under certain conditions) quite as far as with a properly set up watts link.
BTW the only poly bushing I'd recommend on the LCA's is the J&M poly-ball bushings; otherwise don't use them.

Here's also why I offset the rear-end a little to the driver side with a PHB.
Thanks for posting the JIF, JD-AMG.
It really simplifies the explanation of how the phb works!
http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/Tobphotobucket/t_animated_p1.gif

Sam Strano
05-03-2012, 02:20 PM
Whats your view on the LCA's with poly on the chassis end and roto-joint on the axle end? Does the roto-joint allow for sufficient articulation even with poly at the other end or is the bind of the poly still causing a problem?

Just curious....


Yes. The most free movement is of course with rod-ends or Roto-joints at both ends. But there is some wheel rate gain in the bushings. If you go to all rod-end/roto's you lose a touch or roll stiffness which you wish to gain back with bar or spring. This is where something like an adjustable rear bar is pretty cool.

Also, on the Watts link side of things. Remember that is also allows a lot of adjustment to the roll center height which changes the balance of the car quite a lot. If you can't get a car to settle down, you can drop it the RC. If it's tight you can raise it. Just like, but better than, those NASCAR boys raising and lowering the "track bar" (panhard bar) height.

SSCamaro99_3
05-03-2012, 02:51 PM
<-- Wants a Watts link bad, pocketbook says no, no ,no.....

Unforgiven1
05-04-2012, 07:27 PM
<-- Wants a Watts link bad, pocketbook says no, no ,no.....

I don't blame you. That's a lot of money for some steel tubing. But even in saying that I completely understand the benefit over a PHB but you always have to weight out cost to benefit and for me I don't think I could benefit enough to make up the near 500 extra dollars. Maybe if I was a big time competitor in Auto X or some other motorsport but I'm not so...

So anyway, Sway Bars------->Struts---->Springs----->Adjustable PHB in that order if buying seperately. I suppose the sway bars and struts would be a matter of opinion as to which to do first or does one benefit more so than the other?

So thats what I get from our chat. Beyond that someone needs to talk to me about bushing options. I know Polyurethane bushings can be bad due to binding and the like which makes a regular rubber a better option but even more so a roto which allows full articulation. What in the hell is a rod end for? Rod to me suggest no articulation at all however it appears that I'm wrong in that thought. These articulate...just not as much as a roto? So they would be an improvment over poly/rubber but not as good as a roto? Anyway. Talk to me about bushing options and where each one shines in what application. TIA.

Unforgiven1
05-04-2012, 07:43 PM
I always forget to ask something...

When purchasing these aftermarket suspension pieces there seems to be an option in regards to the material used for the piece itself. As in mild steel/Chromoly. I understand that there is a difference in rigidity as one metal would be more resistant to flex than the other...Is there such a thing as having one of these too rigid? Is there a point to where inflexibility becomes a detriment to performance driving?

lees02WS6
05-04-2012, 08:14 PM
I don't blame you. That's a lot of money for some steel tubing. But even in saying that I completely understand the benefit over a PHB but you always have to weight out cost to benefit and for me I don't think I could benefit enough to make up the near 500 extra dollars. Maybe if I was a big time competitor in Auto X or some other motorsport but I'm not so...

So anyway, Sway Bars------->Struts---->Springs----->Adjustable PHB in that order if buying seperately. I suppose the sway bars and struts would be a matter of opinion as to which to do first or does one benefit more so than the other?

So thats what I get from our chat. Beyond that someone needs to talk to me about bushing options. I know Polyurethane bushings can be bad due to binding and the like which makes a regular rubber a better option but even more so a roto which allows full articulation. What in the hell is a rod end for? Rod to me suggest no articulation at all however it appears that I'm wrong in that thought. These articulate...just not as much as a roto? So they would be an improvment over poly/rubber but not as good as a roto? Anyway. Talk to me about bushing options and where each one shines in what application. TIA.

Is this going to be a competition car or a street car? Rod ends make noise, when they're bad they make a ton of noise. I know. They clack and clunk, and transmit all manner of mechanical noises from bearings, tires, everything.

If it was legal in the class, and a pure competition car, I'd run them all day long. There is no doubt they allow full range of motion. Here's the thing, rod ends hate road grime. I had a set wear out in less than 500 miles, and let me tell you they make a hell of racket when they do go, on top of the noise they usual transmit and make.

You can buy rod ends boots, and the fays2's watts link come with seals to insulate the ends in the links, but i wouldn't run them on a street car. Stick with rubber, or if you just can't quell the itch use poly balls or roto-joints.

Unforgiven1
05-05-2012, 01:10 AM
It will be a dual purpose car for the most part. Currently I'm having to task it with DD and I'm going to start with auto X soon. I don't know for certain, but I'm figuring I'll need to do some of this to become competitive. It's dependent upon how well I take to auto x as to how far and how deep I go.

With that said and based upon your description rod ends are out for this guy. Because this car even when not DD will still get taken out for liesure. It won't ever see track only duty...at least not in the certain future. So for the same reasons I don't want a lumpy cam I don't want a clunky rod ended suspension part. So I guess it will be rubber or roto joint when the time comes.

#################################################

On a side note, currently I hear a creaking groaning noise most generally within the area just behind the driver seat. I've tightened the LCA connection to the body and that killed one noise over bumps...however the creaking/groaning still persists. I have also hose modded the rear end hoping the bumpstops were the culprit. Nope.

I've seen that swaybar endlinks often times begin to make noises also. Is this an issue with something being wore down or just in need of greasing?

I haven't located grease zerks...to be honest I haven't tried to find them that hard, but either way how do you grease the bushngs up if there are no zerks?

redlineracing
05-05-2012, 06:06 AM
I am basically in the same boat as you. I have grown up at the drag strip but have recently become extremely interested in autox/road racing. With that in mind, these are the parts I just ordered from Strano:

UMI dbl adj LCA's with roto joints
UMI weld on LCA relo brackets
Strano hollow sway bars
Koni 4/4 sport shocks
Strano springs
UMI 2 point tubular SFC's


From what information I have gained both by researching myself and talking to Strano, roto joints are a good middle of the road option. My car will be a daily driver as well, btw.

Next on my list will be a dbl. adj. panhard bar by UMI, as well as a UMI torque arm and relocation kit.

Again, I plan on doing some autox and road racing strictly for fun, but getting rid of wheel hop and gaining some traction both at the strip and on the street was a big priority of mine. I, however, wanted the car to handle as well as possible for a daily driver.

lees02WS6
05-05-2012, 08:14 AM
On a side note, currently I hear a creaking groaning noise most generally within the area just behind the driver seat. I've tightened the LCA connection to the body and that killed one noise over bumps...however the creaking/groaning still persists. I have also hose modded the rear end hoping the bumpstops were the culprit. Nope.

I've seen that swaybar endlinks often times begin to make noises also. Is this an issue with something being wore down or just in need of greasing?

I haven't located grease zerks...to be honest I haven't tried to find them that hard, but either way how do you grease the bushngs up if there are no zerks?


There are no grease zerks on the factory parts. Grease has a negative effect on rubber, and rubber bushings work by compressing and twisting, which means they need clamping force to grab the side of the metal mount they are in. You are on the right track that's either the lca bushings or the sway endlinks. Visually inspect them for distortion, cracks, rot, or fatigue. If all else fails, spray silicone lube on one bushing at a time, and drive around and see if that eliminates the groaning.

Unforgiven1
05-05-2012, 02:56 PM
I am basically in the same boat as you. I have grown up at the drag strip but have recently become extremely interested in autox/road racing. With that in mind, these are the parts I just ordered from Strano:

UMI dbl adj LCA's with roto joints
UMI weld on LCA relo brackets
Strano hollow sway bars
Koni 4/4 sport shocks
Strano springs
UMI 2 point tubular SFC's


From what information I have gained both by researching myself and talking to Strano, roto joints are a good middle of the road option. My car will be a daily driver as well, btw.

Next on my list will be a dbl. adj. panhard bar by UMI, as well as a UMI torque arm and relocation kit.

Again, I plan on doing some autox and road racing strictly for fun, but getting rid of wheel hop and gaining some traction both at the strip and on the street was a big priority of mine. I, however, wanted the car to handle as well as possible for a daily driver.

Yeah me too. For whatever reason, I never really thought about auto x-ing this thing. Seems like everybody has a 10 sec camaro or trans am but not everyone has one that can carve through the slaloms at 50 or 60 and that's cool to me. With that being said I still wanna see this car hit a low to mid 11.

There are no grease zerks on the factory parts. Grease has a negative effect on rubber, and rubber bushings work by compressing and twisting, which means they need clamping force to grab the side of the metal mount they are in. You are on the right track that's either the lca bushings or the sway endlinks. Visually inspect them for distortion, cracks, rot, or fatigue. If all else fails, spray silicone lube on one bushing at a time, and drive around and see if that eliminates the groaning.

Check and check. Will go buy some lube and get this figured out over this weekend.

LS1121
05-05-2012, 09:36 PM
Wow what a lot of info. So tell me, I have stock springs Monroe Shocks and Struts and a set of Dunlop tires and I can exit the highway on the clover leaf at no more that 50 MPH any faster and I lose the rear end. So if I spend all this money on those things how much faster can I go on the clover leaf? Does anyone know?

lees02WS6
05-05-2012, 09:43 PM
Wow what a lot of info. So tell me, I have stock springs Monroe Shocks and Struts and a set of Dunlop tires and I can exit the highway on the clover leaf at no more that 50 MPH any faster and I lose the rear end. So if I spend all this money on those things how much faster can I go on the clover leaf? Does anyone know?


The guy wants to autocross, while retaining daily livability, telling him to run parts that aren't geared towards that end would be bad advice, no?

JD_AMG
05-06-2012, 11:28 AM
Wow what a lot of info. So tell me, I have stock springs Monroe Shocks and Struts and a set of Dunlop tires and I can exit the highway on the clover leaf at no more that 50 MPH any faster and I lose the rear end. So if I spend all this money on those things how much faster can I go on the clover leaf? Does anyone know?
Cute.
But Ill tell you what buddy, Ill humor you.
Ditch the bind happy poly bushings for rubber, and swap out the joke shocks (we don't have struts, you know this) for Koni SA's and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you saw 70mph on that same ramp. But wait, thats not all, the car would also be ridiculously neutral, and not feel like its going to kill you at the limit (as your current shocks can't damp worth crap causing the car to feel loose and floaty, and the poly bushings bind up causing the wheel rate to spike and either put you into massive uncontrollable oversteer or understeer). Yeah, and thats just good shocks with the stock bushings...
Add the springs and swaybars and Id expect 80-90mph on the same ramp, again feeling remarkably neutral and balanced and easy to push at the limit. All this and its going to ride better than what you have now too...

SparkyJJO
05-06-2012, 05:19 PM
The Fays2 is a great piece, but if you run a 3.5" or larger over axle pipe and are lowered +1.2" or even with a 3" pipe if lowered more than +1.5" you will have clearance issues with the passenger side axle tube clamp.

Oh... so no way to run duals over the axle with it. Drat.

<ponders>

dugganzx3
05-06-2012, 05:52 PM
Sub frame connectors should help as well, but I believe they will bump you up a class for auto x.

dabest09
05-06-2012, 08:18 PM
Cute.
But Ill tell you what buddy, Ill humor you.
Ditch the bind happy poly bushings for rubber, and swap out the joke shocks (we don't have struts, you know this) for Koni SA's and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you saw 70mph on that same ramp. But wait, thats not all, the car would also be ridiculously neutral, and not feel like its going to kill you at the limit (as your current shocks can't damp worth crap causing the car to feel loose and floaty, and the poly bushings bind up causing the wheel rate to spike and either put you into massive uncontrollable oversteer or understeer). Yeah, and thats just good shocks with the stock bushings...
Add the springs and swaybars and Id expect 80-90mph on the same ramp, again feeling remarkably neutral and balanced and easy to push at the limit. All this and its going to ride better than what you have now too...

So which bushings for a daily driver? lol I've heard everyone suggest poly.

SparkyJJO
05-06-2012, 08:28 PM
Poly sucks because it only has 1 axis of rotation, that's the issue with it for a DD.

Rubber is the way to go for total comfort, OR you can go with rotojoints if you want similar performance to rod ends without the noise and other issues that come with them (though they are still harsher than rubber is). That's the way I plan to go in the long run.

Founders swivel joint looks like it could be another good option, perhaps, but they don't have those on both ends of their control arms as an option (yet?). I'll be keeping an eye on those and reviews on noise and long-term durability as their pricing is more appealing.

redlineracing
05-07-2012, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=Unforgiven1;16277457]Yeah me too. For whatever reason, I never really thought about auto x-ing this thing. Seems like everybody has a 10 sec camaro or trans am but not everyone has one that can carve through the slaloms at 50 or 60 and that's cool to me. With that being said I still wanna see this car hit a low to mid 11.



Exactlyyyyy. That as well as I'm getting sick of ricers saying "ok nows lets take it around some twisties" after I hand them their ass in a straight line.

99Bluz28
05-07-2012, 01:19 PM
Oh... so no way to run duals over the axle with it. Drat.

<ponders>

No, I didn't say that. You would need to check with a piece of 90* exhaust tubing in the diameter you would use along with the procedure I listed below.

If you really want to see how much clearance you have jack the car up (high enough to get a set of ramps under the tires) then remove the rear springs. Id then place some ramps under the rear tires and slowly lower the car down until the full weight of the car is on the bump stops. Now you can check to see how much clearance you really have between the exhaust and axle tube.

Unforgiven1
05-09-2012, 10:22 PM
There are no grease zerks on the factory parts. Grease has a negative effect on rubber, and rubber bushings work by compressing and twisting, which means they need clamping force to grab the side of the metal mount they are in. You are on the right track that's either the lca bushings or the sway endlinks. Visually inspect them for distortion, cracks, rot, or fatigue. If all else fails, spray silicone lube on one bushing at a time, and drive around and see if that eliminates the groaning.

I sprayed the piss out of every bushing and still making the noises. I guess I'll just deal until I get aftermarket pieces and if it's still making noises I guess I'll have to dig a little deeper. I'm imagining the noises are just coming from worn out/tired ol' stock bushings after 140K on the clock.

I am kind of curious however as to if moog sells a full bushing kit? I see that energy suspension and prothane offer full kits but didn't see a full kit for moog. Is moog the only one that are manufacturing aftermarket rubber bushings?

lees02WS6
05-10-2012, 07:36 AM
I sprayed the piss out of every bushing and still making the noises. I guess I'll just deal until I get aftermarket pieces and if it's still making noises I guess I'll have to dig a little deeper. I'm imagining the noises are just coming from worn out/tired ol' stock bushings after 140K on the clock.

I am kind of curious however as to if moog sells a full bushing kit? I see that energy suspension and prothane offer full kits but didn't see a full kit for moog. Is moog the only one that are manufacturing aftermarket rubber bushings?

You can get moog bundles from Sam Strano.