Conversions & Hybrids - why wont my truck start?

i have a turbo 5.3 s10 and i tried starting it last week. it turned over fast but just wouldnt start. so i went into hp tuners and deleted vats and took a few emissions off and changed the displacement size to a 5.3 instead of 4.8 and adjusted the fuel pressure down to 50 (was at 90) and tried starting it again today. battery was fully charged and we tried jumping it also but now its turning over super slow and is much worse than it was last week. check out the vid
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l74/NJ54880/th_2012-05-07_16-38-20_399.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l74/NJ54880/?action=view&current=2012-05-07_16-38-20_399.mp4)

next time i try im gonnna hook my laptop up to it and see what hp tuners tells me. this same thing happened to my friends regal except it was a regal with a 307. with a fresh battery it would turn over fast but just not start, then we come back a few days later and it turns over slow as fuck just like this.

All that video shows is a dead battery or a burned out starter.

Do you have spark, injector pulse, RPM signal, etc?

Battery shows 12 volts and the starter is new and I hope its not burnt out. I tried to check spark but it wasnt turning over for shit so i'm not sure if the plug would even have sparked. Tach is moving. I'm not sure about injector pulse yet though. I just don't know why its turning over so damn slow. It sounded like it wanted to when I first tried today but it just won't turn over quick enough

12 volts even? 12.6 is a full charge. 12 flat is around 60%

I torched my first starter by not giving it a good enough ground. It turned over slow enough that I burned it out by trying to force it.

Does it turn over freely by hand? I don't know what you've done to the engine, but a mechanical problem can cause a slow crank. Check for locked up accessory pulleys too.

Have someone crank the engine while you check battery voltage. It shouldn't drop below 9.6v. If that checks out, see what kind of voltage is available at the starter. If voltage at the starter is good, crank some more and check voltage drop across the battery cables and from the starter case to the ground terminal. If you have an inductive ammeter, check current draw by the starter.

Has it been running and this is this a new problem or is this a first start?

My two guesses, flooded at first, now dead starter.

First thing I'd do (if this is a first start situation) is charge your batter/get fresh battery and add a ground from your starter to your battery. Just better/more grounds.

Dammit I think I fried it. I don't have a ground running to it at all. I can make a wiring diagram for what I have tomorrow so you know what I have going on. Volts are at 14 when jumped and the battery is new so I know that's fine. And yes this is my first time starting it.

You don't need a direct ground from the starter, but it will be the best way to go if you have room. I ran a braided strap from the passenger head to my fender. My cranking speed went up quite a bit after that, but the damage was already done so I got another starter.

After the slow cranking, see how hot the starter is. They call them "cooked" for a reason. Mine left a nice burn on my hand after a few seconds of cranking. They start to smoke eventually.

Check out your starter before ordering another. The parts store listed two options for my 02 5.3, but I ended up with a boneyard unit due to cost. A reman was over 200 bucks from Advance.

[QUOTE=T76s10;16284624]fuel pressure down to 50 (was at 90)/QUOTE]

You should be setting pressure to 58 # at the regulator. Unless there is a reason for the low pressure ?

Pick up a Noid light to check to see if you injector are getting an signal and firing.

Good luck

BC

I recommend swapping a Duramax engine in there. I hear they are built to last.

I recommend swapping a Duramax engine in there. I hear they are built to last.

Built to last - DURALAST!

You don't need a direct ground from the starter, but it will be the best way to go if you have room.

Agreed. Basically it comes down to "Great grounding".

just seems like a battery with not enough amps to start the engine. just another car hooked up to and two sets of jumper cables just to rule out the battery and the cable you are using... then go from there.

Starters are grounded to the block.. I have never had an issue with mine, then again I ground all my blocks directly to the battery.

GROUNDS are the key. The grounds have to be able to handle the SAME loads as the pos cable.
Time for some review as to how the grounds are laid out. [Or not].
Then, volt drop testing is in order.
Keep mucking around w/ bad grounds, and you will smoke test whatever grounds are there..

I just put the fuel pressure at 50 for now because I heard you need atleast 34 to start it so I just got it in the general range so I can fine tune it later. where the starter mounts to the block is painted so i'm sure it's not grounded good. I dont have the block grounded to the frame though, is that ok? Or should I run a 0 gauge wire from the block to the frame? It used too turn over fast but now it's slow so I think I fried it. I'll go through the grounds again and make sure that's all good before I buy a new starter but i'm sure the starter it's already fucked. I'll make I wiring diagram for what I have for the starter tonight and take pictures so I can make sure I got this right

I will make sure to check the injectors for pulse after I get everything grounded. The battery is new and it was jumped and showed 14volts when starting.

You don't need a direct ground from the starter, but it will be the best way to go if you have room. I ran a braided strap from the passenger head to my fender. My cranking speed went up quite a bit after that, but the damage was already done so I got another starter.

After the slow cranking, see how hot the starter is. They call them "cooked" for a reason. Mine left a nice burn on my hand after a few seconds of cranking. They start to smoke eventually.

Check out your starter before ordering another. The parts store listed two options for my 02 5.3, but I ended up with a boneyard unit due to cost. A reman was over 200 bucks from Advance.

You might want to shop around a little bit more, I found this new starter cant vouch for the quality but it seems he has sold a lot of them and has good feedback on ebay for $70.50+12.00 shipping

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150748268316?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I would make sure the starter mounting spot is clean and bare metal, that may be your issue. I run the neg battery cable to the block, then a jumper to the frame, then another on the drivers side to the frame. The harness grounds are bolted to the block. All of the big ones on mine are 6ga or bigger.

Even if the area on the block is painted, you would get a grounding circuit from the Bolts that connect the Starter to the Block, but a clean surface will help.

Gen III/IV EFI systems require 58 PSI at the Injectors to function correctly. I recall a few thread where low fuel pressure was the cause of either not starting or hard starting. Try raising it to 58 PSI as specified by GM in there FSM.

I would recommend more grounds.

Battery (Neg) = to block, Frame and Body
Block = to Battery, frame (I use one on each side of the block to the frame) and Body (firewall)
PCM Harness = Three grounding wires to the back of the head

Most if not all electrical problem are bad ground related or start with a bad ground.

BC

Ok more grounds has too be the issue. I'll clean up the mounting surface for the starter and bump the fuel pressure up to 58. My ecm is grounded right to the frame, is that ok? And my battery negative it's right to the frame, do I need to run it to the block also? Our can I just ground the block directly to three frame? Also, my injectors are mounted to the firewall, is that another problem? From what I understood a ground is a ground and weather or not is was grounded to the firewall, frame, or battery - it was good. I'm thinking I need another good ground from the block to the frame because the block isn't grounded.

1 more question, my fuel pump is hooked up to a toggle switch that's only a allowed to turn on when my accessories have power so when I turn the key to start my truck my fuel pump turns off. Do I need to wire the switch directly to battery + so it's running while it's cranking over? I have tried starting it both ways but neither seemed to make a difference but i'm thinking it needs to be running whole cranked over to maintain pressure

There is usually two types of IGN Hots on the older GM Cars. Only One will stay hot while cracking and running.

The other will cut off as you go from Run To Start. That one may not be the one you want to use. This is can be verified as your radio and other accessories will cut out as you start the engine.

The other one that will stay hot in both Run and Start, usually will powers the Ign Coil. Trace it out in your harness or FSM diagram. Most liely should pick up power for your Manual Switch.

Question, why not just use the PCM to activate the pump ?

BC

Not sure that is your problem, But remember that the PCM, if used for activation of the Fuel Pump Relay will power it up for a second or two an then then cut out, if the PCM is sensing enough RPM, it will then re-activate the Replay for the pump.

on your ground, yes a ground is a ground, but the path that the circuit takes for a ground may cuase high resistance. If some piece of electrical has to get is ground from going through many high resistance wires and route.. your going to burn something up or it will not function correctly due to the High Resistance that the circuit takes.

Just add the ground as I noted, it is only a little be of extra work but will ensure you have good ground as needed. And make sure you add that ground from the battery to the Block, frame and body.

Remember that some things are mounted with rubber or poly (Body mounts, etc) and will not conduct well.

BC

The ground from battery should be bolted to block with a clean bare metal surface. You should have a ground strap from block to body, and one from block to frame. The ecm should be grounded to the block with your engine harness.

The fuel pump should be ran off a relay with the ecm triggering the relay for priming and crank & run modes, do not run it straight off the battery!:bomb:

Also check the temp sensor on drivers side head, make sure it is connected if the ecm does not see the correct engine temp, it will not start.

What year engine is this? What ecm are you running.

I can help you more, if I have more info.

Thanks

i am using a toggle switch for the fuel pump because a buddy of mine said at the track he goes to you need a switch to cut off fuel supply and thats the track ill be going to. i did the whole wiring from scratch and i tapped into the steering column and i only used a total of 4 wires. 2 for ignition and 2 for accessories. as long as the switch is hooked up to 12v all the time, as long as i flip it a few seconds before ignition, it should still start right? or will the ecm think that no fuel is going to the engine and not start? ill add in the ground that im missing from the engine to the frame and from the firewall to the engine. i will also relocate the injectors and ignition coils ground to the engine. i think that way everything will be grounded to chasis. my engine is a 2000 5.3 and the ecm is from a 1999 4.8.

the ECT sensor is indeed plugged in. heres a diagram of what i have in my truck. tell me if this looks right

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l74/NJ54880/diagram.png

my battery is in the bed of my truck and it doesnt make sense to run a wire from my battery negative to my frame and run another negative from my battery to my engine block so i will run the negative from my battery to my frame and from my frame to my engine block and from my engine block to the firewall.

my battery is in the bed of my truck and it doesnt make sense to run a wire from my battery negative to my frame and run another negative from my battery to my engine block so i will run the negative from my battery to my frame and from my frame to my engine block and from my engine block to the firewall.

Many have made this same Assumption and have found that they were wrong. Highly suggest you run a 0 or 1 grounding wire from the battery to up front and/or the block.

Also.. If you running your Switch/relay to a battery (even if it is IGN powered), you really leave a lot on the table for safety. Should you get in a accident and forget to turn the switch off or you are unable to turn the switch off for what ever reason, ... Kaboom !, rosted car and driver... You better hope that someone will be around to turn the power off via the rear master cut off switch.

Just my option... and 2 cents..

BC

Yeah off it werent in the rules to have a switch for the fuel pump I wouldn't have done yet But everyone else I race with has one cause of track regulations so whatever. I'll pick up some 0 gauge wire and run it too the block but I dont have any other choice but damn is expensive

once upon a time this mechanic (me) was putting a clutch in a geo metro and forgot to hook the batt to engine ground back up and attempted to crank the car... i got to spend the next 4 hours putting a clutch cable in the car after it caught fire and siezed up.

you NEED to have a ground directly from the batt to the engine even if the battery is located inside your right rear tire...

seriously.

dumb question, why dont you just use the ecm to control the fuel pump and run a couple wires into the cab with a toggle switch to break the control circuit for the fuel pump relay?

also i would recomend using the + side of the FP relay control circuit just incase the wire grounded at some point so your fuel pump doesnt decide to stay on till it blows up

the ECT sensor is indeed plugged in. heres a diagram of what i have in my truck. tell me if this looks right

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l74/NJ54880/diagram.png

my battery is in the bed of my truck and it doesnt make sense to run a wire from my battery negative to my frame and run another negative from my battery to my engine block so i will run the negative from my battery to my frame and from my frame to my engine block and from my engine block to the firewall.

In this diagram, the starter is not grounded, because the block is not grounded.

You have to ground the battery to the block! Period!, it is the main ground for the S10's electrical system.

The block is isolated from the frame & body with mounts and bushings,
so the starter will not get a good ground with the battery ground bolted to the frame.

The starter will not get the current it needs to crank over the motor and will burn up the starter!

That is why the factory bolts the ground to the block. Grounds are just as important as the power wire, and are overlooked a lot.

If you need a switch for the fuel pump, just wire the ecm's fuel pump trigger to a switch then to relay, that way you can still kill the fuel pump any time you want, but the ecm still has control of the fuel pump.

Thanks

In this diagram, the starter is not grounded, because the block is not grounded.

You have to ground the battery to the block! Period!, it is the main ground for the S10's electrical system.

The block is isolated from the frame & body with mounts and bushings,
so the starter will not get a good ground with the battery ground bolted to the frame.

The starter will not get the current it needs to crank over the motor and will burn up the starter!

That is why the factory bolts the ground to the block. Grounds are just as important as the power wire, and are overlooked a lot.

If you need a switch for the fuel pump, just wire the ecm's fuel pump trigger to a switch then to relay, that way you can still kill the fuel pump any time you want, but the ecm still has control of the fuel pump.

Thanks

a revised version of what i said...

a revised version of what i said...

Yep, I didn't see your post till after I posted mine.

i guess great minds think alike;)

Yep, I didn't see your post till after I posted mine.

i guess great minds think alike;)

lol yea but i caught a geo metro on fire!

lol yea but i caught a geo metro on fire!

You say that like it's a bad thing! LOL

Just kidding, Fire! when working on car's is never good!

Well some times we learn things the hard way! LOL

You say that like it's a bad thing! LOL

Just kidding, Fire! when working on car's is never good!

Well some times we learn things the hard way! LOL

yea, anytime you can stab a trans with one hand and start bolts with the other without breaking a sweat it deserves to burn.

Thanks for the input guys. Yeah in that drawing I meant it to have the block grounded. Only thing I was really confused about was why the block needed to be grounded to the negative on the battery and not to the frame when in the end the battery and the block are both mounted to the frame. But this it's the first time wiring EVERYTHING on a car other than doing stereo wiring and systems. So if out takes buying more wire then I'll do it. You guys know more than me for damn sure

Thanks for the input guys. Yeah in that drawing I meant it to have the block grounded. Only thing I was really confused about was why the block needed to be grounded to the negative on the battery and not to the frame when in the end the battery and the block are both mounted to the frame. But this it's the first time wiring EVERYTHING on a car other than doing stereo wiring and systems. So if out takes buying more wire then I'll do it. You guys know more than me for damn sure

it's good that you mentioned, stereo systems.

If you had a stereo system with amps, and did not ground the system good enough, what would happen?

When you turned up the system, the amps would heat up and go into protection.

Same thing is happening with your starter, by not having the block grounded good, the starter is not grounded good enough and getting hot causing slow engine cranking.

The starter takes a lot of current to crank over the engine, and it needs the best ground it can get.

The best ground is from the power source "The Battery".

So since the starter is grounded by the block, the block needs the best ground.

It is also just as important that the ground surface is clean bare metal.

Hope this helps you understand it better, Thanks

That makes sense now. No wonder why the starter is going so slow so it got cooked because my block isn't grounded. The only difference with wiring systems it's all the amps I have wired had a safety in them and wouldn't start unless it was grounded good enough. Wish I was smart enough to ground my block before I roasted my starter. Atleast now I know

Thanks for the input guys. Yeah in that drawing I meant it to have the block grounded. Only thing I was really confused about was why the block needed to be grounded to the negative on the battery and not to the frame when in the end the battery and the block are both mounted to the frame. But this it's the first time wiring EVERYTHING on a car other than doing stereo wiring and systems. So if out takes buying more wire then I'll do it. You guys know more than me for damn sure

The block is mounted with rubber motor mounts...zero transfer of ground.;)

I ground the Engine first no matter what..alot of essentials in that harness that need all the ground they can get.

i feel like a retard for not doing that in the first place. probably should have done more reasearch before i wired this bitch haha

That's fixed now and tried starting it again. getting spark but got no injector pulse. I think it's because my ecm is wired to an ignition switch turns off while cranking, could this be the problem?

ECM needs 12v Ign when key is on, should be no break in the power.

That's gotta be the problem then. I didn't even think about that when I wired it

Yes.. I would look to make sure that the 12v Ign wire that you are using stays hot on both the Run and Start Position. If not, check one of the other Pink wires at the fuse box or steering column.

BC

I know for sure it does shut off during cranking because when I wired my steering column I wired it to the switch that turns off during ignition. I didn't think about it at the time so that's probably the issue. I'm going to re wire it tonight and let you guys know what happens

I wire it from the Fuse Box.

I tried it and it still didn't work. I'm gonna hook HP tuners up to it and see of it gives me any trouble codes

Pin 19 needs 12v ign with key on, 20 & 57 are constant 12v.

I'll check that later. I'm almost 100% sure the pcm is wired right but I'll make sure

There are 3 things need for engine to start.

Start testing in this order

!) Fuel

"Pull spark plugs and check for raw fuel." (If you do move to step 2)

Spray some starting fluid into the throttle body and see if it fires ( if it does your getting spark but no fuel)

Check here next:

Do you have fuel to the rail?

Are your injectors pulsing?

2) Spark

"Pull plug & with wire still on crank the motor and check for spark" (If you do move to step 3)

Are you getting 12volts to the coils?

Are your plug wires good? "check resistance with ohm meter"

Are the plugs cracked or fouled?

3) Compression

"Do you have good compression on all cylinders?"

Do compression check on all cylinders

Do this and let me know what you find.

Thanks

Suck, squeeze, bang, blow.

Check everything to meet the above requirements.;)

It's getting spark but injectors aren't pulsing. I have 58psi fuel pressure. could a bad crank sensor bee the issue?

If it's getting spark, that shows the key wiring wasn't the issue....Inj fuses???

They aren't fused but I probed my noid light to the supply wire to injector and didn't get anything. I'm not sure what else could cause no injector pulse

They aren't fused but I probed my noid light to the supply wire to injector and didn't get anything. I'm not sure what else could cause no injector pulse

The injectors should have a fuse on them!

One fuse for left bank and one for right bank, I think it's 10-15 amps for each bank. " That's how the factory does it"

It should however still start if the injectors have power to them, with ignition in run & start mode.

I would start by check the injector's power wire "the white or pink wire's".

If they don't have power, thats your problem.

If they do have power, check your wires from the pcm to the injector's.

Check continuity from each injector plug's non-pink wire to the pcm harness.
Here is a wiring diagram to help with the injectors:
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j478/michaeldolphin/fig_8.gif

If all check good

Check for pulse signal from the pcm to injectors.

The pcm's injector pulse signal acts as a ground for the injector.

You should be able to test this with continuity to ground, Place one lead of the meter on the pcm ground and the other on a injector non-pink wire, and crank over the engine. If you get no continuity, the pcm is not sending a injector pulse.

If you do get continuity, You have a problem with the injectors.

"They might be stuck closed, Pull them out and remove the o-rings and soak them in Seafoam or some kind of injector cleaner like "Dosa Klean".

It is also a good idea to replace the o-rings, while you have them a-part.

Let me know what you find.

Thanks

looking at the diagram, im pretty sure my whole injector wiring is messed up. from my understanding, the ecm sent power to the injectors through the color coded wires and then all the pink wires are grounded. but looking at the diagram, power is sent through all the pink wires when accessories are on, and the ecm grounds them through the color coded wires, correct? im going to run outside and re wire it quick because thats probably why im not getting any volts at the injectors. duhhhhhhhhhhh. im making a dunce of myself

looking at the diagram, im pretty sure my whole injector wiring is messed up. from my understanding, the ecm sent power to the injectors through the color coded wires and then all the pink wires are grounded. but looking at the diagram, power is sent through all the pink wires when accessories are on, and the ecm grounds them through the color coded wires, correct? im going to run outside and re wire it quick because thats probably why im not getting any volts at the injectors. duhhhhhhhhhhh. im making a dunce of myself

Yes that would be correct!, and why your engine is not firing up!

Is it just me! or am ! starting to smell burning rubber! LOL :burn:

IT STARTS!!!! runs like hell because its not even tuned but hey atleast it runs now and its loud as hell coming right off the turbo. thank you very much for that diagram i cant believe i totally mis wired my injectors. and i can smell it too lol hopefully very soon i can be driving this thing.

IT STARTS!!!! runs like hell because its not even tuned but hey atleast it runs now and its loud as hell coming right off the turbo. thank you very much for that diagram i cant believe i totally mis wired my injectors. and i can smell it too lol hopefully very soon i can be driving this thing.

No Problem!, I am glad to here it fired up!!!:guns:

Now get it tuned up, and go lay some rubber!!:burn:

Congrats !!! You must really feel good now !

If this was the only issue.. Then your good and keep us posted on the progress of burned Rubber !

BC

Pink in the harness is usually 12v ign power..;)

Oh hell yeah I'll be Laying some rubber down in no time! I'm glad it started it is such a relief. It's not fun when $10,000 of hard work doesn't start lol.