Cadillac CTS-V - Maggie Dyno Numbers

I had my car tuned and dynoed with the maggie, numbers where 441hp with 417 torque. I expected more. Mods are kooks with HF cats, 160 stat, 60lbs injectors, ls2. Just wondering what other people dynoed. Tuner said a meth kit with crank pulley will get me close to 500. Just wondering what you guys felt. thnks

I was at 452 and 429tq. This is with stock ex manifolds, magnaflow mufflers and a volant intake. This is with the stock Magnuson tune. Where are you located what was the outside air temp and conditions?

Also peak numbers don't tell the whole story. The real question is are you satisfied with how it drives now?

When you start getting into the 500hp range you start running out of gas.

The drive train loss in the V is very high also.

"Outside temp and conditions" does not play a factor as long as a correction factor is being used... thats the whole purpose of a correction factor with the dyno. To include humidity/temp/ambient air pressure. I always laugh at guys that say.. it was a HOT day in the dyno shop.. yet you look on the dyno run or sheet, and it has the temp (which is used to correct the hp and tq values).. means, if you are using SAE.. .standard automotive Engineering standard calculations are used.

what WILL affect hp/tq however, is altitude /elevation.
You will not make as much psi if your higher up, and since PD blowers are belt driven and not wastegate controlled like a turbo, you will lose psi and power with elevation change.

Heat soak is the other positive displacement devil...

Try dynoing a car in Denver. :jest:

When you start getting into the 500hp range you start running out of gas.

The drive train loss in the V is very high also.

My car through a few mods was .81 drivetrain loss. - ~19%.

Maggie at 9 psi LT's no cats manga flow 3" with a custom ground cam made 530/510

I'm at 475whp 472wtq with ~8.5 psi, IW overdrive lower, Kooks, Corsa, Volant

what pulley? how much boost?

04vguy what pulley did u change to reach 9psi? Im in eastern PA outside temp was mid 70's. The car feels great BUT im wondering if i could have went with a CAM and spent half the money with similar results. I guess I just am neversatisfied! sorry fellow member neversatified. lol

ive heard a guy dyno at 425 hp with just the maggie 6 lb and all else stock. this sounds about right...

he had an ls6 though so idk

Didn't see it yet. What dyno? 441 on a Mustang would be nice, on a dynojet kind of ok, on a hub dyno with the wrong correction factor who knows.

Numbers don't sound terrible for peak. Show us the graph. I'm guessing that 417 tq is down around 3k rpms. My 360 tq cam only is about 5k. No comparison at all.

(My wrx makes more tq than my V down low :(

My buddy all stock but maggie 05 ls6 made 425, but cats seem like they are taking a shit because he drove so long without a proper tune. Tuner said with headers and exhaust 460-475 should be around that range. Dyno jet dyno

04vguy what pulley did u change to reach 9psi? Im in eastern PA outside temp was mid 70's. The car feels great BUT im wondering if i could have went with a CAM and spent half the money with similar results. I guess I just am neversatisfied! sorry fellow member neversatified. lol

It was technical 8.8 psi and it was with a 2.6 pulley from pulley boys.

mp112, obx headers, muff delete, comp cam, and im at 490rwhp

Meth and pulley coming next to put me over the 500 mark then i'm done

I had my car tuned and dynoed with the maggie, numbers where 441hp with 417 torque. I expected more. Mods are kooks with HF cats, 160 stat, 60lbs injectors, ls2. Just wondering what other people dynoed. Tuner said a meth kit with crank pulley will get me close to 500. Just wondering what you guys felt. thnks

Those are corrected numbers? Seems a bit low but dynos do vary a lot. What boost nos were you seeing?

who wants to sell me a kit? I need BOOST now. Or I fear I might try and buy a rustang... GT500.

My buddy all stock but maggie 05 ls6 made 425, but cats seem like they are taking a shit because he drove so long without a proper tune. Tuner said with headers and exhaust 460-475 should be around that range. Dyno jet dyno

You are the one I was actually talking about cause I spoke to your friend and he told me he dynoed it earlier that day at 425 or so...

When you start getting into the 500hp range you start running out of gas.

The drive train loss in the V is very high also.

Thats really not true.

The average drive train loss on the v is between 17%-19%

The average drive train loss on the v is between 17%-19%

Very true.

What type of dyno? I heard Mustang dyno's are conservative with their numbers.

Yes it was a mustang dyno...that's crazy that a few people said the same things about the mustang dyno. I still think I'm going to do the 2.6 and re-tune soon. thanks everyone for your input.

that's crazy that a few people said the same things about the mustang dyno.

Not really... Mustang and a few other brands use a loaded (eddy current) to place a load (or brake). Where as SOME (all older ones) Dynojets are inertia type (fixed drum weight). Ive seen 8-10% harder to push an eddy current type vs Inertia.
Some new Dynojet models allow steady state (are similar loading to the mustang)

vmapper so in your opion which style of dyno would be more accuarate? I was tuned on a Mustang dyno.

vmapper so in your opion which style of dyno would be more accuarate? I was tuned on a Mustang dyno.

More accurate? - that is an illogical question. like trying answering why is the earth flat? or is this torque wrench more accurate than another.

they are both quite accurate and precise, they are a precision tool. Of course, some shops neglect the calibration and maintenance and some operators dont understand how they work... its what causes variances, not the dynos. (e.g. would be to use a correction factor on a turbo wastegate controlled engine - you see this lots and its 100% incorrect) The dyno use Formulated Correction from various instruments to gather air conditions. - again, I laugh at people saying ' it was a hot day' yea so? the SAE for example, being one of several correction factors, takes that into consideration and adjusts to the Standard Automotive Engineering standardized factor.(J1349).

You have set a base for your sweet maggie ride...
you can now see what mods in the future alter your curve characteristics or notice the tq / hp increase.

Dynos are not just for WOT runs either... they are very useful in steady state tuning (a very good, tuning method) to squeeze out every hp, optimize throttle response and mpg.

An eddy current dyno, places more of a 'real world' load on the drivetrain and engine. that would be the edge IMO... for tuning, eddy current all the way.

^^ Dynojet has an eddy now too so be careful lumping them in as apples/oranges. They dnojet eddy still reads about the same as the inertia one. I do most of my tuning on a dynojet with an eddy brake.

^^ Dynojet has an eddy now too so be careful lumping them in as apples/oranges. They dnojet eddy still reads about the same as the inertia one. I do most of my tuning on a dynojet with an eddy brake.

Dynojet 224xLC read lower than the inertia types. but still a bit more than a mustang dyno. Andy at A&A will tell you the same.
I use the loaded dynojet for my steady state tuning.

I bought a 224x with and eddy brake and just sharing my experience.

"Outside temp and conditions" does not play a factor as long as a correction factor is being used... thats the whole purpose of a correction factor with the dyno. To include humidity/temp/ambient air pressure. I always laugh at guys that say.. it was a HOT day in the dyno shop..

Well shit.
Learn something new every day.
That's disappointing.. lol

link to the 2.6 pulley?

link to the 2.6 pulley?

what hub style do you have?

TVS style:
http://www.smoothflowpulleys.com/TVS2300_4-Bolt_Front_Pulley.html

what hub style do you have?

TVS style:
http://www.smoothflowpulleys.com/TVS2300_4-Bolt_Front_Pulley.html

maggie 112

maggie 112

that doesn't help... that mp112 has 2 hub styles, one is a 4 bolt TVS style (newer design). the old design was a keyed single nut style.

that doesn't help... that mp112 has 2 hub styles, one is a 4 bolt TVS style (newer design). the old design was a keyed single nut style.

hmmm I will have to look. I bought it used

here is the other style hub:
http://www.pulleyboys.com/store/product.php?productid=52&cat=37&page=1

here is the other style hub:
http://www.pulleyboys.com/store/product.php?productid=52&cat=37&page=1

cool thank you. I will have to check when I get a chance.

Keep in mind the warm day dyno being completely dismissed by corrected dyno numbers is also a farce. Your vehicle is going to run cooler in motion than it will standing on the rollers. Maggie cars will also have lower IATs. Neither of these is factored in to the "corrected" number on the dyno. Only the humidity,density,temp of the ambient air and the measurable site variables are in the corrected number.

1% gains are seen for every 10 degree drop in IAT (general rule) at 500hp that's 5hp for every 10 degree IAT drop. That's a pretty significant difference and fast.

Now factor in the well known LS motor sweet spot of engine temp in the low 170/upper 160 range and you've got +/- 10-20 hp than what's being displayed on a hot versus cold day.

Keep in mind the warm day dyno being completely dismissed by corrected dyno numbers is also a farce. Your vehicle is going to run cooler in motion than it will standing on the rollers. Maggie cars will also have lower IATs. Neither of these is factored in to the "corrected" number on the dyno. Only the humidity,density,temp of the ambient air and the measurable site variables are in the corrected number.

1% gains are seen for every 10 degree drop in IAT (general rule) at 500hp that's 5hp for every 10 degree IAT drop. That's a pretty significant difference and fast.

Now factor in the well known LS motor sweet spot of engine temp in the low 170/upper 160 range and you've got +/- 10-20 hp than what's being displayed on a hot versus cold day.

Where did the high 160-low 170 engine temp number come from? I didn't realize this is well known. Could you comment more on this? seems odd GM would use a 195F tstat if GM knew the engine would run better at 160F-170F

I was told around 180 is a good temp for the LS, but yea GM designed it all around emissions especially without EGR temps need to be higher

Where did the high 160-low 170 engine temp number come from? I didn't realize this is well known. Could you comment more on this? seems odd GM would use a 195F tstat if GM knew the engine would run better at 160F-170F

Among other things, if you run that low a temp consistently, your engine oil won't get to a high enough temp to boil off condensed water so it can be removed by the PCV system. You'll have to change your oil more frequently.

Newer diesels like my Duramax like the 170 range, LS motors we run like the 180-190 range. Running in the 160 range I'm pretty sure will retard the timing if I remember my tables correctly. Operating temp has to be reached or the ECU will not play nice for starters.

Stock stat is 187*. Most discussions about coolant temps agree around 180-200 is good for performance and reliability, but additional power can be had below 180 due to less heat soak of incoming air but at a cost of additional wear. Also coolant above 180 usually means oil will get above 180 as well which most agree helps water evaporate from the crankcase. Timing is reduced around 212 for coolant according to ls2 stock tune.

Google "160 t stat LS1" and there's PLENTY to read - I live in Oklahoma and the car does not see rain,ice,snow etc. ever. The summer gets plenty warm and that's where the V sees most of it's driving. The IAT battle with the maggie is a mean mother; the 160 stat keeps it fluttering at the 175-178 mark pretty consistently which is the expected delivery of a 160 stat. In the spring and fall the temps get closer to 170 and the IAT's stay down at a friendlier 115-125 until you lay into it.

What I know of forced induction: basically a cardinal rule is the cooler you can get the motor running the better. You avoid retard due to knock and/or dreaded detonation. These can both rear their heads, but that's an advantage of tuning on cooling deprived rollers of a dyno. You're essentially punishing the motor as much as it would see on any heavy use.

Regarding the oil temp to evap issue: I still change my oil at 3k regardless and run synthetic. I also keep a steady supply of plugs on hand and change them at the beginning of every driving season. Extreme? Yeah probably a little... Here's my thought though...

The factory stat and tune are built for longevity; by longevity I mean the average consumer motorist who runs the oil change a bit too long and waits until something is wrong in order to maintenance it. All the manufacturers practice this... that's why you can squeeze 10-15 hp/tq and get a much better fuel curve from a custom tune. The stock tunes cover the mass production factor and take into account that every motor will be a certain percentage more or less capable than the next.

Lower temps - ambient, coolant, IATs... they all work better for me in this environment - that's going to vary from V to V. Do your research just like anything else you might consider doing and make sure you are doing it right the first time. Then cross reference it again just to be sure.

Case and point: I'm in the hunt for a TBSS AWD with a blown tranny right now. Why? Ask any TBSS owner what the weakest point of the drivetrain is... I want to swap in a 6 speed on day one and not have to worry about putting down sick amounts of hp/tq through a factory designed bandaid.

And dyno numbers - back on topic wholly - 498hp and some 47xish number I don't recall on the torque. (Thanks LS6.) The extra oomph came from the cam and the incredible tuning at SNL.

So my car is in the shop getting some things done to it nothing serious. It needs a good dyno tune which I have not been able to get to yet since the cam and maggie install last summer so It has a street tune. Well the shop that my car is at right now had a dyno day (Mustang dyno). They said toss yours on there and I said ok. 3 pulls and one said 412 and another said 392. ???

Cam, LTs, Maggie, catback, CAI, Melled pump etc and it only did 392 - 412? Stock clutch with stock flywheel maybe part of the problem because something isnt right.

So my car is in the shop getting some things done to it nothing serious. It needs a good dyno tune which I have not been able to get to yet since the cam and maggie install last summer so It has a street tune. Well the shop that my car is at right now had a dyno day (Mustang dyno). They said toss yours on there and I said ok. 3 pulls and one said 412 and another said 392. ???

Cam, LTs, Maggie, catback, CAI, Melled pump etc and it only did 392 - 412? Stock clutch with stock flywheel maybe part of the problem because something isnt right.

you should easily be in the 450rwhp range. Do you have a dyno sheet?

Getting the shop to email me a copy. I'll post it when I get it.

Well here it is :thinker::soapbox:. This is my first time seeing it actually and it seems jumpy

Well here it is :thinker::soapbox:. This is my first time seeing it actually and it seems jumpy

Seems like its running rich. I would think they would target closer to a 12:1 AFR or 11.5:1 but I could be mistaken.

Yea target sounds about right... mine is 11.8

If you get it retuned, take the trip to Slowhawk in Bridgewater MA.

I was thinking of going to RPM in Delaware

take it somewhere else for a tune. its too rich and ill bet the timing tables are all off. the curve looks like its having a heartattack

I was told around 180 is a good temp for the LS, but yea GM designed it all around emissions especially without EGR temps need to be higher

The purpose of EGR is to reduce combustion temp's under cruise conditions by displacing available oxygen with exhaust. EGR is no longer required with the overlap in the OE cams and catalyst over temp protection. Operating temp does not really come into play here.

Newer diesels like my Duramax like the 170 range, LS motors we run like the 180-190 range. Running in the 160 range I'm pretty sure will retard the timing if I remember my tables correctly. Operating temp has to be reached or the ECU will not play nice for starters.

Lower operating temps make it possible to run additional ignition advance, that's why every car runs so much better when cold. The stock tune adds 2* of timing from 68*-113*, and 4*+ of timing between 68* and colder. There is also and additional 3*-12* of timing advance from 50*-122* ECT for Catalyst light off.

The stock tune starts pulling timing at 230*. Remember, this is just ECT, the computer also pulls timing for IAT's also if you are at 230* ECT.

I was thinking of going to RPM in Delaware

Excellent choice. Yeah, your tune is jacked up. I would go out on a limb and say it doesn't run smooth when cold, but starts to clear up at at 140* ECT. Your LT's are probably way out also since the MAF and VE tables are not correct. The power enrichment (PE) multipliers are based off the these tables and will be all over the place if they're not correct.

Bottom line, it looks like the guy tried to rape your tune and these are the typical results. Since you power is so low, max timing is probably really low, which is the only saving grace.

What do u mean LTs are way out?

What do u mean LTs are way out?

Long Term fuel trims...the amount of compensation (fuel) the computer is adding to achieve the target AFR based on O2 sensor feedback (O2 sensor feedback adjustments begin at 131* ECT). FYI - there is no feedback during PE mode, the AFR is whatever it ends up being (which is why it can be all over the place).

Edit: There are ST (short term) and LT (long term) adjustments. When the ST's drive high enough for long enough, they result in a LT adjustment that is further refined with ST's. LT values in excess of 5 or -5 indicate your tables are way off and require adjustment.

A tune that does not require feedback adjustments will always perform much better and feel much smoother with improved throttle response since the engine is getting the fueling it needs exactly when it needs it rather than adjustments made after the fact.

Hope this made sense.

Lower operating temps make it possible to run additional ignition advance, that's why every car runs so much better when cold. The stock tune adds 2* of timing from 68*-113*, and 4*+ of timing between 68* and colder. There is also and additional 3*-12* of timing advance from 50*-122* ECT for Catalyst light off.

So you believe trying to run an LS engine at 160-170 is beneficial beyond just slightly increased power? this doesn't negatively impact anything else?

Damn DDM do u tune? Lol

So you believe trying to run an LS engine at 160-170 is beneficial beyond just slightly increased power? this doesn't negatively impact anything else?

It will not hurt anything. There is a possibility that lower operating temps could result in increased cylinder bore wear, but I don't believe it's enough to worry about. I had a 160* T stat but took it out b/c is was junk. If anyone knows of a decent one, let me know.

Aside from the cooling fan settings, the open loop multiplier tables (Open Loop F/A vs. Coolant Temps vs. MAP) have to be adjusted since the computer is commanding cold start fuel enrichment until 158*, which still falls in the range of the 160* T stat.

Edit: DTC P0128 (Coolant T-Stat) has to be set to "No Error Reported" also or that dreaded yellow light will be on.

Damn DDM do u tune? Lol

I only tune my own stuff...dabble really...and I still require help myself. RPM is an excellent choice and they will take care of you.

Taking it to RPM Wednesday @ 10:30 to have them take care of me. Is it true any pulley under 3.0 u will have to mill the snout?

Taking it to RPM Wednesday @ 10:30 to have them take care of me. Is it true any pulley under 3.0 u will have to mill the snout?

as far as pulleys go..u can go down to a 2.7 without touching a thing on the front pulley.. 2.6 will fit but i had to gring a little out of the inside of the pulley. plus it slipped bad.

for the rears..you can only get a 3.2 on the input shaft before u have to mill the cover. i just flipped mine around with the original input pulley on the jack shaft and a 3.2 on the input. then used a 3.0 on the front.

I'm trying to figure out which mp112 I have. The # on the side says CARB # D-488-6 and after researching it says 2004 ctsv only and I have a 2005. I'm puzzled!!

CARB EO for the 05 is D-488-8

http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-488-8.pdf

CARB EO for the 05 is D-488-8

http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-488-8.pdf

I saw that and mine says CARB D-488-6 not D-488-8. Is there really a difference? Everything fits no problems.

There is no difference unless you've got a smog station guy who's being a jerk.

Ahh ok

Went to RPM yesterday and had the V dyno tuned.
2005 Maggie Cadillac CTS-V - YouTube

Went to RPM yesterday and had the V dyno tuned.


numbers...?

numbers...?

457 / 438

457 / 438

What spec cam are you running? How much Boost?
I feel like the maggies dont make much power even with a few supporting mods.

What spec cam are you running? How much Boost?
I feel like the maggies dont make much power even with a few supporting mods.

224/238 .591/.613 113+4 & 6lbs of boost

spin that thing faster. numbers are low..but then again they r only numbers.

224/238 .591/.613 113+4 & 6lbs of boost

That cam looks like it maaaaybe got a little too much overlap for the blower. Did you talk to the RPM guys about that?

I mean, your car is still making a lot of power, but if you're looking to tweak it, you could maybe look at a blower cam. Like this one from Tick:

http://www.tickperformance.com/tick-performance-blower-stage-2-camshaft-for-ls1-ls6-engines/

That cam looks like it maaaaybe got a little too much overlap for the blower. Did you talk to the RPM guys about that?

I mean, your car is still making a lot of power, but if you're looking to tweak it, you could maybe look at a blower cam. Like this one from Tick:

http://www.tickperformance.com/tick-performance-blower-stage-2-camshaft-for-ls1-ls6-engines/

no I did not. I've wondered about the cam

no I did not. I've wondered about the cam

Good guy to ask, who give great advice, is Martin from Tick. He posts often on the Gen III internal engine subforum.

Good guy to ask, who give great advice, is Martin from Tick. He posts often on the Gen III internal engine subforum.

Ill check it out.


Where can I find IW overdrive pulley that will work with a 2.7 pulley?

I slept on it and now that I think about it, it still seems a little lower for the mods I have. I need an ls7 clutch kit

I slept on it and now that I think about it, it still seems a little lower for the mods I have. I need an ls7 clutch kit

You mean for a lighter flywheel? That won't change your dyno numbers. It will just make the car feel faster on the road.

You mean for a lighter flywheel? That won't change your dyno numbers. It will just make the car feel faster on the road.

o i know

o i know

haha, i just noticed your fleet under your sig. of course you do.

Ill check it out.


Where can I find IW overdrive pulley that will work with a 2.7 pulley?

IW sells both 6 and 8 rib setups.

I made 498hp and 505tq

I made 498hp and 505tq

mods?