LS1TECH Sponsor Feedback - Beware: Katech LS9R clutch failed 700 miles Katech wont stand behind their products

Beware:

On Feb 1st 2012 I ordered the LS9-R clutch kit from Katech KAT-A6184. With the remote bleeder and shipping I spent $1825.70. I had the clutch kit installed at the dealership who installed the katech flywheels, clutch and pressure plate, slave as well as a new gm clutch master cylinder. I did the usual stop and go 500 mile break in period no issues. Let me also state that this is a weekend vehicle so I only drive it on weekends weather providing. Well one Sunday mid April I was driving the car and noticed as I shifted into third gear there was a strange noise from the drivetrain area. I coasted to the side of the road to soon find out that the car would not come out of gear. The car would move forward fine but it was stuck in gear for some strange reason. I turned the car off but as I tried to start it again with the clutch pedal pressed in the car tried to jump forward and still would not come out of gear. I let the car sit a bit, checked the clutch fluid and still no luck so I had the car towed back to the dealership. The dealership began by checking a few things and replacing the clutch master again with no luck and then they tore the rear end and drivetrain all back out. The clutch disk on the pressure plate side had been ground down to the rivets and there was a large worn area on the pressure plate as well. The strange part is that the flywheel side had not worn at all like that and the flywheel still looked perfect. I contacted Jason at Katech that following week to discuss what had happened and informed him that the car had only 700 miles on it since the clutch was installed. He said he would have his “engineers” look into the pictures that I had taken and for me to send him the damaged parts back. After numerous emails and different “ideas” of what they thought might have happened, Jason refused to stand behind his product (which was obviously defective) and replace the parts. I have attached pictures and copies of our emailed conversations.

Me: Hi Jason,
I had called you the other day in regards to my LS9-R clutch kit that I purchased back around the first of February. I had the dealership install my clutch kit on Feb 10th and it has approximately 700 miles on it since the install. I also had the dealership install a new clutch master when we put this clutch kit in. As I was telling you the other day the clutch locked up and wouldn't disengage at all. I had the car towed back to the dealership. The dealership first replaced the clutch master cylinder to see if that was the issue but no luck. They then tore the whole thing back down. I had the technician take pictures of everything and I have attached them for you to see. The disc on the flywheel side looks perfect he said and the flywheel is still in excellent condition as well. I'm thinking I need to switch out the disk, pressure plate and slave. Please give me a call at your convenience so we can discuss swapping this out for another unit.
Thanks James

Jason’s first email response: Thanks for the pictures. I'm having one of our engineers review this. I'll get back to you.
Jason Harding
Director of Aftermarket Operations

Jason’s next email response: James,
It looks like the clutch was slipping for a long time, finally wore the material down on one disk and let go. You have a lot of clutch dust on the slave cylinder for only 700 miles and it looks wet. This could be caused by an oil leak at the rear main seal or a hydraulic leak. You will need to replace the clutch assembly and investigate an oil leak.

Best Regards,
Jason Harding
Director of Aftermarket Operations

My response: Jason there is no leak of any sort on any part of the clutch assembly. There is no rear main seal leak at either. There is clutch dust on the slave boot because the clutch disk was worn down to the rivets and that dust had to go somewhere. There was definitely some sort of defect in the pressure plate and disk and these parts need to be replaced.
James

Jason’s next email response: James,

I've been speaking to the engineers involved with the design of this clutch and I have some more information for you about the failure you experienced and a concrete explanation. The failure is from what the engineers call “cold burst over speed.” In other words, the drivetrain was over-revved when cold. The disks are good to over 10,000rpm when hot, but when cold that threshold is greatly reduced. If the car experiences a mechanical over-rev, clutch disk speed exceeds maximum with clutch pedal in. The input shaft is still traveling at high speed even though the engine is decoupled from the gearbox and an engine over-rev does not occur. I hope that sheds some more light on the failure.

Best Regards,
Jason Harding
Director of Aftermarket Operations

My response once again: Jason,
I have sent you the clutch kit back as requested so you should be receiving it within the next few days. As far as the "cold burst" goes that is impossible for that to have happened. I warm the car up properly each and every time I drive it which is only on weekends and our Texas weather has been 80 degrees + for the last few months. The clutch disk and pressure plate failed on the pressure plate side after 700 miles and as I stated earlier it was installed at the dealership by a certified 20+ year GM technician. I really wish you would stand behind your products and make this right.

Thanks,
James

Jason’s final email response: We do stand behind our products, but our warranty does not cover over-revs. It could be a hot over-rev if the disks went over 10,000rpm. I had the GM engineers who designed your clutch analyze it. They knew exactly what the cause of failure was.

Jason Harding
Director of Aftermarket Operations

CLIFFS: KATECH LS9-R CLUTCH KIT LOCKED UP AFTER 700 MILES AND JASON AT KATECH WONT STAND BEHIND HIS PRODUCTS!

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h9/theblackwidow_2006/9.jpg
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http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h9/theblackwidow_2006/photo1.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h9/theblackwidow_2006/10.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h9/theblackwidow_2006/photo.jpg

Damn, that's a fucking bummer man!

hmm... someone else on the forum just had a problem w/ their Katech LS9R clutch, I'll let them chime in. But I know the clutch is coming out because it is not acting right.

This go up on Corvetteforum? That'll break alot of hearts over there.

They locked my thread and put it into the feedback section on cf.. i guess those of us whith disputes cant discuss them without the vendors pushing there weight around.. its ok im not done with them yet :judge:

James

That sucks man.

So does Corvette forum

I've had great experience withe my spec stage 2 clutch. I have over 400rwhp.

Good luck bro

BLACK WIDOW, how "beefed up" is your engine? Because if you over-revved that much as Jason explained, I think you would also have failed engine parts along with the clutch failure...? Hmmm...

Ok noone should chime in to compare there spec 2 to this clutch, wow man im real sorry to hear this, i can tell you right now i wont call them after reading there e mails, what a douch, i can see you spending close to 3 grand on a clutch and jump in first thing in the am and rev to 10 grand lol, most times there is always 2 sides, not this time its right there, at least the issue tsp had with there true duals they stood behind, but thay looks like a 700000 mile clutch not 700,

Good point, revin that high and no other damage, you would think reving that high there would be rods/springs etc, wish my car would spin to 10 grand

Wow man sorry to hear that you are having that happen. I have the same clutch in my car and hope that if something does go wrong Katech would stand behind their product.

They locked my thread and put it into the feedback section on cf.. i guess those of us whith disputes cant discuss them without the vendors pushing there weight around.. its ok im not done with them yet :judge:

James

LOL!!!! Not surprising. Just one of the downfalls of CF.

DAMN..................

i hope they work it out with you,good luck!

every manufacture have there defective parts... him not standing behind it and understanding it is sad. I feel for you man

Hmmmm...just bought one. Not installed yet. When did you buy it?

BLACK WIDOW, how "beefed up" is your engine? Because if you over-revved that much as Jason explained, I think you would also have failed engine parts along with the clutch failure...? Hmmm...

Just your average bolt on stock motor makes 570ish.. I spent the extra money on this Katech R clutch so that I could throw on a power adder down the road

James

Hmmmm...just bought one. Not installed yet. When did you buy it?

I purchased the clutch kit on Feb 1st and the clutch froze up on April 13th

James

Wow, this was high on my list for the next clutch replacement. Guess I will look elsewhere. I change the clutch on my back and it isn't something I would want to do after 700 miles.

Just your average bolt on stock motor makes 570ish.. I spent the extra money on this Katech R clutch so that I could throw on a power adder down the road

James

Ok, so with a bolt-on stock motor if you over revved your engine that bad to do that kind of damage to the clutch (cold or hot, doesn't matter), there's likely a 99% chance you'd have some sort of failed engine part(s).

The over revved scenario doesn't make a lot of sense if there's no other damaged parts due to it.

LOL!!!! Not surprising. Just one of the downfalls of CF.



I honestly couldnt agree more... It makes EVERY vendor on CF look great and im a vendor over there and i hate it.

I read the vendors response at CF. I have driven and abused clutch cars for many years and I have never heard of a clutch over rev problem as he describes it. I am sorry you spent so much and go so little out of it.

Stories like this are the reasons I stayed away from the LS9 variety at katech. I heard nothing but bad stories about it so I went with a clutch from a vendor who drag races often, East Coast Supercharging. I love my Mantic twin disk

Potentially wrong flywheel?

Potentially wrong flywheel?

Katech designed that flywheel and I'm not really sure if other companies make an ls9 flywheel that will bolt up to the ls7. I'm still not sure at this point what actually happened but the dealer seems to think the disks came apart somehow but I'm not really sure.

I just hope no one else has to deal with issues like this in the future!


James

I could be wrong but they make different versions of the kit depending on the model of motor that is in the car. If you have a pressure plate for a ls7 and a flywheel for a ls1 (IE it was packaged wrong together) the spacing is different and I personally believe it would cause this exact problem. The disk didn't come apart, I've seen a ton of broken disks and honestly I think that disk looks really good for a clutch that was essentially slipping for 700 miles. In your pictures all of the buttons are "intact", no chunks missing from the friction material and no springs appear to be broken. I would look into install error (highly doubtful, but everyone will make a mistake in 20 years) or mispackaged parts which should also be evident during install imo.

What exactly is the clutch made up of?? OEM LS9 disc/pp with a 6 bolt FW?

I've never installed that clutch

How did the pp/bh versus slave/TT face measurement look?

The entire clutch measurement how to is on Tick's website; nothing new.....(not saying this is the root cause, just good to have all information)

The LS9x is an LS9 clutch with a different flywheel for non-ZR1 cars.
The LS9r is the same clutch but a stiffer pressure plate. It still has the OEM disks.

Yea, man stay on the campaign!!! Cause this crap is rediculous!!! You spend all that money to just have them say, its not our fault!!! OVERREV That's crap!!! I almost bought one, like I was ready to order until I read this crap!!!

I am very sorry to hear about your troubles. It makes you really appreciate the companies that give you the no BS warranties. Sure if it were covered in oil or there was damage to the other three faces of the two disks you could say it was not the fault of the clutch. But when one side is destroyed and the other is perfectly fine you HAVE to suck it up and replace the part. It's the right thing to do.

It looks like they are saying that when shifting from 4th to 2nd as an example that the clutch disks cannot handle the extra rotational speed while the syncros are matching the speed and the car is still moving. Did they give you a cold rpm limit? Is this not a safety hazard? Clutches exploding is kinda a big deal. Are SFI bell housings required just to run an LS9r clutch on the street?

And what is considered cold? 80* in texas is not exactly cool weather.

ill be honest, my first thought was, "ok, maybe the user installed the pp disc the wrong way?" and after seeing that it WAS installed propery, i couldnt think of another excuse. specially, as it was already pointed out, the flywheel side is perfectly fine. sorry to hear man, that really sucks.

Yea, man stay on the campaign!!! Cause this crap is rediculous!!! You spend all that money to just have them say, its not our fault!!! OVERREV That's crap!!! I almost bought one, like I was ready to order until I read this crap!!!

I'm not going down without a fight that's for sure!!!

I am very sorry to hear about your troubles. It makes you really appreciate the companies that give you the no BS warranties. Sure if it were covered in oil or there was damage to the other three faces of the two disks you could say it was not the fault of the clutch. But when one side is destroyed and the other is perfectly fine you HAVE to suck it up and replace the part. It's the right thing to do.

It looks like they are saying that when shifting from 4th to 2nd as an example that the clutch disks cannot handle the extra rotational speed while the syncros are matching the speed and the car is still moving. Did they give you a cold rpm limit? Is this not a safety hazard? Clutches exploding is kinda a big deal. Are SFI bell housings required just to run an LS9r clutch on the street?

And what is considered cold? 80* in texas is not exactly cool weather.

Sucks man I hope noone else has to deal with this especially from Katech!

ill be honest, my first thought was, "ok, maybe the user installed the pp disc the wrong way?" and after seeing that it WAS installed propery, i couldnt think of another excuse. specially, as it was already pointed out, the flywheel side is perfectly fine. sorry to hear man, that really sucks.

Yep that's the strange part is that it just damaged the pp side..

I just had LMR replace my monster stage II with an LS9X clutch in my C5Z06 this week. The monster clutch held fine, but the pedal was too stiff for my taste.

So far I love everything about the clutch. Hopefully I wont run into a similar issue with mine.

My RPS Twin Carbon Lite locked up within 300 miles. The installer was a 10 hour drive so I was not about to go back & they immediately blamed RPS. RPS helped with diagnosis over the phone & email with photo's. Then it was determined the clutch had to come out, when I removed it 4 of the six flywheel bolts had backed out into the disc.

I shipped the entire clutch back to RPS, they repaired the damaged disc, verified the L/W flywheel was good. When it was good to ship back, they REFUSED payment, shipped it prepaid to Canada, included a new installation kit which included ARP flywheel bolts, throw out bearing, alignment tool instructions etc.

This was clearly not a manufacturer problem & they helped out with no obligation.

I understand this is not relative to the problem, I just feel it is important recognize exceptional support.

Damn that sucks, a company that big should have no problem standing behind their products. If they blamed it on the over-rev (which obviously you didnt hit 10k RPMS) but even in a scenario where you did wouldn't the wear be on the flywheel side?

Stories like this are the reasons I stayed away from the LS9 variety at katech. I heard nothing but bad stories about it so I went with a clutch from a vendor who drag races automatics often, East Coast Supercharging. I love my Mantic twin disk

Fixed. :D

Thats some BS man... sorry to hear

I had an ACT twin in my H/C Z06 that lasted 2k miles and about 20 passes. It cut really good 60's for me but I hated the clutch. Then I called Fran and ordered an RPS twin lite and it was amazing to drive. I highly recommend the RPS.

Katech has yet to defend themselves on here?? Says something right there that they don't pay attention to the boards.

I have no dog in this fight but OP you're saying your tech believes the clutch material failed and came apart? You seem to believe that but does he have proof other than being a gm tech for 20 years and also being the one that installed it?
You have to understand that dealership techs have instructions for every normal job they do. Come in with something out of the ordinary and they may not be up to the task. Hell, go in an ask them to reflash your pcm or relink your bcm and watch how many of them have to gather around the computer to figure it out. My point is you can't have curious george installing parts like this, especially something that's not an off the shelf product and has been modified for the application.
While I don't necessarily agree with katechs explanation of over rev there doesn't seem to be a clearcut fault here.
FWIW my opinion is that the disc was dragging since day one which could be a design flaw but in most instances like this with premature clutch failure, something is missed or wrong during installation.

It really amazes me how everyone IMMEDIATELY claims product defect. Is it not possible for an installer to make a mistake, or miss a problem. An installer shouldn't just bolt stuff together they should also check their work and check the products for proper operation.
It's a shitty situation but if you're expecting them to send you brand new parts because you and your tech say it's defective then you're setting your sights too high.

Katech has yet to defend themselves on here?? Says something right there that they don't pay attention to the boards.
It doesn't say anything about them actually. They're a big company with better things to do than watch the boards for threads that are just going to lead to a pissing match with people who want to bash them but most likely have no knowledge of this product, let alone driving or installing one.

I have no dog in this fight but OP you're saying your tech believes the clutch material failed and came apart? You seem to believe that but does he have proof other than being a gm tech for 20 years and also being the one that installed it?
You have to understand that dealership techs have instructions for every normal job they do. Come in with something out of the ordinary and they may not be up to the task. Hell, go in an ask them to reflash your pcm or relink your bcm and watch how many of them have to gather around the computer to figure it out. My point is you can't have curious george installing parts like this, especially something that's not an off the shelf product and has been modified for the application.
While I don't necessarily agree with katechs explanation of over rev there doesn't seem to be a clearcut fault here.
FWIW my opinion is that the disc was dragging since day one which could be a design flaw but in most instances like this with premature clutch failure, something is missed or wrong during installation.

It really amazes me how everyone IMMEDIATELY claims product defect. Is it not possible for an installer to make a mistake, or miss a problem. An installer shouldn't just bolt stuff together they should also check their work and check the products for proper operation.
It's a shitty situation but if you're expecting them to send you brand new parts because you and your tech say it's defective then you're setting your sights too high.


It doesn't say anything about them actually. They're a big company with better things to do than watch the boards for threads that are just going to lead to a pissing match with people who want to bash them but most likely have no knowledge of this product, let alone driving or installing one.

For someone with no dog in this fight you sure have a lot to say...

looks to me like perhaps the master cylinder wasn't adjusted properly for the new slave cylinder, or the slave was shimmed inproperly, not allowing the disk to fully disengage.

looks to me like perhaps the master cylinder wasn't adjusted properly for the new slave cylinder, or the slave was shimmed inproperly, not allowing the disk to fully disengage.

If this was the case, BOTH sides of the disc would have been the same.

It also would have had engagement issues, one way or the other. It would either slip or not disengage.

For one side of the disc to be destroyed and the other look normal is either a defect in material or a flywheel/pressure plate issue(whichever side is torn up).

EDIT

Did everything slide freely on the input shaft?

Ive heard nothing but bad about katech on here thats why id never give them a chance to screw me. Seems like about a year ago there was a thread about a guy contracting them to build a motor and when he took the engine apart lator there was lesser quality parts in it.

This thread made me spend my money at ecs. I hope they step up op!!

Ok, this needs to be moved to vendor feedback section, not this section.

Secondly I'm going to give my $.02 on this topic. Pretty much everything that has been posted about slaves, adjustment, wear, etc.. is all just plain wrong. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes with that. But it is what it is. People just grasp at straws and you get the sort of input you have in this thread.

Now, up to actual failure pic.

So, if you look at the failure what appears pretty obvious is the friction material came loose from the disc for some reason. Why that happend is is the key question. I believe those are OEM GM discs from the LS9. What I am suprised about is that they do not have a bonded steel backing attached to the friction material. Normally, an unbonded disc has a limit of about 6000 rpm, after that the organic disc comes apart. But if its a GM part, I am sure it tested to well in excess of the normal limits. So to be clear, that is not a knock against Katech, just a suprise on my part the GM engineered it that way.

Now, you can see that after the disc failed, the rivets were still there. You can see the heads facing one way, and the backs facing the other were ground off on the pressure plate fire ring and created the groove in the pressure plate.

So the real question is, why did the disc shed it lining? I can't say definitively, but I would look at two options. One is being rev'd past the mechanical limit of the disc, and the lining coming apart. But since it is an OEM part that can go to 7000 RPM for over 100K miles, my guess is GM has a considerable safety margin in the part and its probably safe to at least 8000-8500. Steel bonded discs are safe to about +11K normally. So, I'm guessing its probably not a design flaw.

The next item I would look at would be damage to the disc. If the disc was cracked or damaged during shipping or install a damaged area of the disc could become a stress point. Lets say someone dropped the disc on the ground during install and it hit on the side of the disc and cracked the friction material. The material then easily fails shortly thereafter. Again, its a rather soft organic disc. Another possibility I've seen on cluch installs is that weight is left hanging on the clutch while stabbing trannys and torque tubes into the car. This can lead to bent and broken discs, and other clutch damage.

The last item I can think of woud be if the pressure placed on the rivets themsleves was either too little, or too much. If they were under rivieted, the disc could become loose and tear out. If they were over riveted, the rivet could pull through the material. Again, in large OEM batches I would consider that rare.

My gut feel is that the disc was damaged in shipping or install. I also don't think it is soley a Katech issue, but I would leave it to Katech to decide how they wish to handle it as a cusotmer service issue. I don't see anything that owuld lead me to believe it is a Katech design issue.

Disclaimer: The opinion expressed above is strictly my own, and is not representative of any manufacturer, company, service provider, or that of LS1tech.

Im not a expert on anything related to this.
BUT the fact that OP says he couldnt shift outta gear and when pedal is depressed from a stop and he tried to start it the car moved forward, that tells me that some part of the clutch disengaging mechanism was failing. Whatever was failing clearly found a weak link in the material the clutch was made of on the one side.
So its tough to say if katech is responsible in my eyes. Would the disk have failed if the PP wasnt dragging it?
If the PP is made of a more abrasive material then the flywheel then it might have eaten through the disk faster since it was dragging. But it definitely was slipping ALOT to get to that point. And I dont see mention that the clutch wasnt holding the power. Just that all of a sudden it shit the bed.

I am in no way saying that the OP did anything wrong. But Its tough to say either side should eat the 1800$ clutch.
Good luck!