Street Racing & Kill Stories - 90 363 Fox vs 98 Z

Raced my buddies fox the other day. He has a 5 speed 90 GT with a stroked 363. My car is H/C/I M6 98 Z.

His builder said the car made 370 on a dyno jet off the spray. My car made 406 on a mustang dyno with the cutout closed and an ls1 intake. I have a new intake now but have not dynoed it since. I would guess we are around the same weight because he has subs and a cage while I have some weight reduction mods.

We made 3 runs and the mustang walked me all 3 runs. He had a good steady pull on me. Started at 40 and by the end of forth he had maybe a car and a half on me (127 mph). I started started closing the gap at the top of forth but we were already going fast so there was no point.


He says he didn't spray me until the last run but his pulls were all the same on me. I also saw him smile when he purged the motor (heard it) on the first run. He admits I have him motor only, but only admits to spraying the last race.

I have no idea on how big of a shot he is running.

Sounds like fun...buddy has his fox.with a 408 for sale right now.

Nice runs! Those 351-powered Fox's can be nasty.

OP he sprayed you all 3 runs no doubt about it. If all 3 runs looked exactly the same then he must've. I'm willing to bet that he had a 100 shot. Make him pull the bottle out and run them again to see where you both stand. Although you could sneak yourself a lil shot on there then lie to him and turn the tables.

I think its a 100 shot as well. He admits my car will beat him NA and he wont take out the bottle cause hes afraid of how bad it will be lol.

I wanna run with out the spray just to see the motor to motor. I still have the stock tb, MAF on my Pro Flo and my cut out was closed. I have around 30 rwhp hiding in this combo still. I would think with the 90mm upgrade and the cutout open (worth 16rwhp old set up) it would be a close race. It was a really good race Ill admit that. I wanna up grade the tb, tune with the cut out open and have another go at it before he pulls the bottle.

Oh he sprayed ya.....or he would've lost.

What is it with some of you guys racing when your shit is'nt right?

What is it with some of you guys racing when your shit is'nt right?

I have a manual cut out so I didn't feel like crawling under the car. I just got my intake finished up and didn't have the extra funds to get the 90mm set up right away.

Car is fully tuned, just not optimal mods yet.

I think its a 100 shot as well. He admits my car will beat him NA and he wont take out the bottle cause hes afraid of how bad it will be lol.

I wanna run with out the spray just to see the motor to motor. I still have the stock tb, MAF on my Pro Flo and my cut out was closed. I have around 30 rwhp hiding in this combo still. I would think with the 90mm upgrade and the cutout open (worth 16rwhp old set up) it would be a close race. It was a really good race Ill admit that. I wanna up grade the tb, tune with the cut out open and have another go at it before he pulls the bottle.

What heads/cam & compression on the motor?

What heads/cam & compression on the motor?

ported 5.3s 59 cc, stock GM MLS, TRex cam. Stock lower end with ARPs. 11.2 compression? Cant remember.

I have no idea whats done to his. Just know its a 363 with Trickflow intake and some brand of alum heads.

370rwhp out of a 363cid 5 speed? Thats sad.

Nice runs! Those 351-powered Fox's can be nasty.

It's not a 351, it's a 302.

If it was a 302 it would'nt have 370 rwhp.

370rwhp out of a 363cid 5 speed? Thats sad.

I dont know if it is an aftermarket block or not. Ive been reading up on 363s and they can be down right nasty.

I dont know the specs on the motor, wish I did

That mustang guy is at just over 1hp per cubic inch that's pretty sad for a stroked,heads,cam etc.

It's not a 351, it's a 302.

Hmm. I would imagine it's an aftermarket (maybe Dart???) block with a 4.125" bore and taller 8.2-8.7" deck height? Most likely running Wedge-style heads. Interesting, never ran into anyone with that combo.

ported 5.3s 59 cc, stock GM MLS, TRex cam. Stock lower end with ARPs. 11.2 compression? Cant remember.

Yeah, that combo should definitely make more power once everything is optimized. That cam is no joke. Seen M6 cars pull numbers close to that with just the cam + full bolt-ons (stock 241's).

Hmm. I would imagine it's an aftermarket (maybe Dart???) block with a 4.125" bore and taller 8.2-8.7" deck height? Most likely running Wedge-style heads. Interesting, never ran into anyone with that combo.

It definately is an aftermarket blocked 8.2 (aka 302 based). 351 is 9.5"

363 IMO is a funny build that isn't for everyone. Sounds like guy would have been better off with a 408 or like.

It definately is an aftermarket blocked 8.2 (aka 302 based). 351 is 9.5"

363 IMO is a funny build that isn't for everyone. Sounds like guy would have been better off with a 408 or like.

Agreed. 408 would have made more sense IMO.

In fairness to him he bought the car how it sits. Car is loaded like a damn summit catalog. The 370 rwhp number could have been a lie to me from the builder. Ill find out more info tonight on it.

In fairness to him he bought the car how it sits. Car is loaded like a damn summit catalog. The 370 rwhp number could have been a lie to me from the builder. Ill find out more info tonight on it.

Just like 90% of the 5-Ohs on the street. Either way its nice to see healthy/clean one on the streets.

In fairness to him he bought the car how it sits. Car is loaded like a damn summit catalog. The 370 rwhp number could have been a lie to me from the builder. Ill find out more info tonight on it.

A n/a 363 should have RAN away from you. But most people don't want to spend the money they need to on the right parts. Thus me saying a 363 isn't for everyone. The 363 probably has your typical AFR 185s, TW 190s, or something like. In reality it needs some 225 high ports or my choice, some Victors. Ported Super Vic and a nice cam. Should put it over 500rwhp n/a with the RPMs it would want. Not making excuses and I'm like the others, I think he sprayed you in all the runs and acted like he didn't.

Plus IMO your car should make more than it does.

Tell your Mustang buddy he should have bought a bolt on Mach 1...

Tell your Mustang buddy he should have bought a bolt on Mach 1...

:rotflmao::rock:

It would take some huge sick nasty cam to get a 363 anywhere near 500rwhp. Not the shit most street cars are gonna like. Probably have to have enough compression to need race gas too.

But like I said before. When get rid of all the ford parts those cars tend to run better.

363 two streets over makes 428RWHP on motor with fuel injection on a Mustang dyno. Weird motor and yes its a Dart Block

It would take some huge sick nasty cam to get a 363 anywhere near 500rwhp. Not the shit most street cars are gonna like. Probably have to have enough compression to need race gas too.

But like I said before. When get rid of all the ford parts those cars tend to run better.


No the cam wouldn't be small but it would not require race gas.

Just found out its a boss block. Builder says it made 412/468 on a dyno jet NA. It has a 175 shot. AFRs worked over a lot. I'm sure it would make a lot more power if it had a real intake instead of a trickflow breadboxes style.

Just found out its a boss block. Builder says it made 412/468 on a dyno jet NA. It has a 175 shot. AFRs worked over a lot. I'm sure it would make a lot more power if it had a real intake instead of a trickflow breadboxes style.

A couple things.

It does not make 412/468 on a dyno jet. Numbers are way too off.
AFRs worked over a lot could mean anything.
That Trickflow breadbox intake made 456rwhp N/A on my 5.4L. That is a real intake. :cool:

I thought the numbers were off too. We both are going to the dyno in a month or so

It would take some huge sick nasty cam to get a 363 anywhere near 500rwhp. Not the shit most street cars are gonna like. Probably have to have enough compression to need race gas too.

But like I said before. When get rid of all the ford parts those cars tend to run better.

Right, or just swap a better engine in from the manufacturer, either way. :lol:

I could not imagine a new 2013 5.8L GT500 motor in a 90's LX coupe. :drool:

It's not a weird motor at all. Just using a Dart or Boss block with a 4.125 bore to unshroud the valves and a 3.4" (347) stroke crank. That is my new combo actually. If he put AFR 185's on it I would not be surprised at all. I see it all the time, lol. For some reason a lot of Ford guys don't use the larger runner heads to keep that extra 4ld ft at 3k. Then they wonder why they get pulled up top. I always tell them if I wanted to build a motor for low end torque I would build a diesel.

It would take some huge sick nasty cam to get a 363 anywhere near 500rwhp. Not the shit most street cars are gonna like. Probably have to have enough compression to need race gas too.

Not really. Here's one that made 572hp on the engine dyno with a pretty mild .585-.565, 235-242 Hyd roller cam and 10.5 - 1 compression. All it takes is putting a decent set of heads on it. The ones used in this build were only 205 cc's.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1342435-363%94-dart-7000-rpm-screamer-%96thanks-ford-strokers.html

It's not a weird motor at all. Just using a Dart or Boss block with a 4.125 bore to unshroud the valves and a 3.4" (347) stroke crank. That is my new combo actually. If he put AFR 185's on it I would not be surprised at all. I see it all the time, lol. For some reason a lot of Ford guys don't use the larger runner heads to keep that extra 4ft lbs at 3k. Then they wonder why they get pulled up top.

No offense but on a 363 the larger heads will not "keep that extra 4ft lbs at 3k" over bigger heads. Quite the opposite infact. Same idea as a 70mm TB will make more rwtq at a lower RPM over a 90mm TB.

And the 363 is a weird motor as in with the 4.125 bore it will require a larger head to take advantage of the bigger bore. The larger head will require a larger intake to take advantage of it. The larger intake and heads on the big bore will require a larger runner longtube to take advantage of them. The larger intake, larger heads, big bore, and larger runner longtubes will require a larger RPM to take advantage of the short stroke. I could keep going...

So as I said, this motor isn't for everyone. I hope you know what you are doing.

No offense but on a 363 the larger heads will not "keep that extra 4ft lbs at 3k" over bigger heads. Quite the opposite infact. Same idea as a 70mm TB will make more rwtq at a lower RPM over a 90mm TB.

And the 363 is a weird motor as in with the 4.125 bore it will require a larger head to take advantage of the bigger bore. The larger head will require a larger intake to take advantage of it. The larger intake and heads on the big bore will require a larger runner longtube to take advantage of them. The larger intake, larger heads, big bore, and larger runner longtubes will require a larger RPM to take advantage of the short stroke. I could keep going...

So as I said, this motor isn't for everyone. I hope you know what you are doing.

You made my point. A lot of guys are afraid of losing low end torque and so they stick with small heads that run out of steam up top.
My combo is a 363ci, TFS 205 cnc's by Total Engine Airflow, custom cam, TFS Box R, and a 76mm turbo. The cam and heads are pretty mild compared to some other engines I have built in the past but this is a 90% street car. Maybe I can break 400rwhp.

You made my point. A lot of guys are afraid of losing low end torque and so they stick with small heads that run out of steam up top.
My combo is a 363ci, TFS 205 cnc's by Total Engine Airflow, custom cam, TFS Box R, and a 76mm turbo. The cam and heads are pretty mild compared to some other engines I have built in the past but this is a 90% street car. Maybe I can break 400rwhp.

Heads choice was wrong IMO but everything else seems ok plus the turbo will help with the heads being on the small side. Should be a fun build.

As you know the wedge heads have a shorter runner so that 205 cc runner size is equal to 220 cc's in a standard inline head. They won't hold me back I promise. The only thing that is limiting me right now is my fuel system.

As you know the wedge heads have a shorter runner so that 205 cc runner size is equal to 220 cc's in a standard inline head. They won't hold me back I promise. The only thing that is limiting me right now is my fuel system.

They flow slightly better than a 205 of a standard inline but they are no where close to a 220+cc head. (I run the same head as you have but with my own custom valvetrain over Mike's @ TEA) And it has been argued that even though they flow more the 205 TW will be slower than an equal 205 AFR headed car.

You would have been much better off with a 225cnc High Port. This part is just my opinion though.

AFR's 220's have a 2.100 intake valve, tested with a 4.125 bore, and flow 321/251 cfm. TFS 205's have a 2.02 intake valve, tested with a 4.030 bore, and flow 316/231. Test the 205's with a 4.125 bore and they would be right there. 225cnc high ports flow 320/245. I agree they are a great head and have more potential than the 205's but all it takes to make 700+rwhp is turning up the boost. If that's not enough for a street car to hold it's own around here then I give up, lol.

AFR's 220's have a 2.100 intake valve, tested with a 4.125 bore, and flow 321/251 cfm. TFS 205's have a 2.02 intake valve, tested with a 4.030 bore, and flow 316/231. Test the 205's with a 4.125 bore and they would be right there. 225cnc high ports flow 320/245. I agree they are a great head and have more potential than the 205's but all it takes to make 700+rwhp is turning up the boost. If that's not enough for a street car to hold it's own around here then I give up, lol.

That test isn't accurate at all and doesn't hold any value.

But you are right, your car should fly with the boost! I would love to see the difference with the TFS R box vs a ported Super Vic with a nice transition 90 elbow on your car. I feel the box will obviously make more useable power down low but the Vic might make more power up top. Turbos are tricky like that.

I have a long runner R and the box upper also. I plan on keeping this one so I will probably try a super vic in the future. I will see how it goes. It is a full weight gt with a/c and power everything so there is a tradeoff for everything that you do or don't do. It ran 11.20's with AFR 165's, mild blower cam, Eddy Performer and an S trim. it has a built 4r70w with a small stall also. Don't rag me on those heads, they were on it when I bought it, lol.

I put on a regular R upper from my box upper and lost power EVERYWHERE. I since sold the regular R and went back to the box on top. But I'm selling the whole motor and car now so it doesn't matter.

It would take some huge sick nasty cam to get a 363 anywhere near 500rwhp. Not the shit most street cars are gonna like. Probably have to have enough compression to need race gas too.

But like I said before. When get rid of all the ford parts those cars tend to run better.

LoL, wrong subject matter for you. You might want to just leave this alone and let the guys that know what they are talking about discuss this :lurk:


The TFS bread box intake out flows the Victor EFI intake; been told by someone that has played with both on a bench, that if you could match the TFS lower to the Edelbrock upper you would have the best EFI intake.

I'm kind of wondering if the owner of the 363 is just playing with the OP acting like he has to spray to out run the OP when he doesn't. Makes me wonder if he is just saving the gas for when he really wants to hurt someone's feelings.

A 363 ain't no joke, what most don't realize is that the internal parts ofthe 363 are so much lighter due to the short stroke that they will turn up quicker that comparable taller deck engine....rate of acceleration.

Heater I think that depends on the cubic inches used and the cam.

I know years ago a ported Saleen/Holley worked best on a 302-331 but that was years ago...

Holley Systemax is still a great all around intake. I have one on the shelf that I need to sell. The Saleen used the truck lower and is outdated at best.

It would take a pretty big cam and good compression(probably near the limits of pump but using oe parts;)) for a ls to get 500rwhp n/a @ 363c/i. So it only makes sense it would take more of both for the ford. Not to mention that old pcm is'nt goin to control things as well. That link was a carb on a engine dyno w/o exhaust. It will loose some power in the car. It was using a ~240* cam which would be more than enough to make power brakes really hateful. It was a really good build but to the outer limits of what most will do.

I mentioned it was on an engine dyno, not in the car but the cam is smaller than an MS3 and how many of those are running around on the street?

The TFS bread box intake out flows the Victor EFI intake; been told by someone that has played with both on a bench, that if you could match the TFS lower to the Edelbrock upper you would have the best EFI intake.


I wasn't talking about the Victor EFI. I was talking about the Super Vic EFI lower with a nice elbow upper. The Victor EFI has a nice lower but the upper is bottle necked down to like 65mm right at the neck and this part of the intake really requires some porting to make the intake shine. And IMO even then you still have to deal with the 180* turn which I don't like. The TFS box is just a 90* turn straight down into the heads. It IS the ultimate SBF EFI intake in about 95% of situations.

I knew what you was referring to Kevin, I just didn't want to bring a carb type intake into the discussion because someone could discredit it for it's raciness (saying it's not a street style intake). The guy that did the flow test ported the Victor EFI upper and stated that it had such a poor casting that it needs to be cleaned up right out of the box.

You kill me on hating on not using O.E Ford parts Doug. I don't know if that's a true hang up for you or if you just like using it to try and win the discussion.
As far as a "big" cam making the power and killing the brakes, Jay Allen ground me a cam a few years ago for my 85 GT. The car was my daily driver with power everything (a/c included), and I told him it had to be streetable. The cam was 242 int. & 259 on the exh. and was VERY streetable including pulling 11in. of vacuum for my power brakes.

I knew what you was referring to Kevin, I just didn't want to bring a carb type intake into the discussion because someone could discredit it for it's raciness (saying it's not a street style intake). The guy that did the flow test ported the Victor EFI upper and stated that it had such a poor casting that it needs to be cleaned up right out of the box.

:rotflmao:

Stop the BS. You were talking Victor Jr not Super Vic. It's OK newbie. We can't know everything.

And both are carb-style intakes. :eyes:

I knew what you was referring to Kevin, I just didn't want to bring a carb type intake into the discussion because someone could discredit it for it's raciness (saying it's not a street style intake). The guy that did the flow test ported the Victor EFI upper and stated that it had such a poor casting that it needs to be cleaned up right out of the box.

You kill me on hating on not using O.E Ford parts Doug. I don't know if that's a true hang up for you or if you just like using it to try and win the discussion.
As far as a "big" cam making the power and killing the brakes, Jay Allen ground me a cam a few years ago for my 85 GT. The car was my daily driver with power everything (a/c included), and I told him it had to be streetable. The cam was 242 int. & 259 on the exh. and was VERY streetable including pulling 11in. of vacuum for my power brakes.

I'm to cheap to buy all that aftermarket motor stuff.....lol so any build using that stuff is off the table to me. Besides if someone is gonna tell me how great the sbf, sbc, BBC or lsx is then use the oe parts for the main components. If they don't then it's a dart, afr, trick flow or whatever. Just the way I feel.

The LS engine comes with some real good internals from the factory to not be forged, hard to argue that.

LoL, doesn't hurt that they also have a factory 15° head that flows very well.

370rwhp out of a 363cid 5 speed? Thats sad.

Yep, I agree 100%

I dont know if it is an aftermarket block or not. Ive been reading up on 363s and they can be down right nasty.

I dont know the specs on the motor, wish I did

LOL, too bad the guys you raced isn't too nasty.

Just like 90% of the 5-Ohs on the street. Either way its nice to see healthy/clean one on the streets.

LOL. Most mustang guys around here have a setup out of a jegs catalog and they wonder why every one of thier motors makes 285 rwhp. Nobody understands the art of building a REAL engine anymore, and how to properly match parts. But then again, most 3rd gen owners are the same way lol. For the few of us that do know our shit, amen.

Amen to that! I told the builder I wanna run my buddy again once I get my 90 TB and with my cut out open. He says "why do you need the cut out open?" I told him with the ls1 intake my set up gained 16 rwhp/10 rwht. He said "holy shit, who tuned your car? That's a huge gain! You shouldn't gain that much. Cut outs are just to be loud and show off". I told him I wanted the car tuned again wth the cut out open(instead of through the catback) to maximize the power. He then told me you shouldn't tune or run WOT with cut outs open cause it will lean out the motor to much. You should to run two separate maps if your going run cut outs WOT. LOL


Cliff notes, I ran a 363 fox that walked me slowly and I can't get a straight answer what's done to it.

Shit...you guys got no idea what you are talking about. In the SBF world if you don't have an E303 cam, some GT40 heads, and Summit race thumper double pumper you ain't fast. :judge:

Amen to that! I told the builder I wanna run my buddy again once I get my 90 TB and with my cut out open. He says "why do you need the cut out open?" I told him with the ls1 intake my set up gained 16 rwhp/10 rwht. He said "holy shit, who tuned your car? That's a huge gain! You shouldn't gain that much. Cut outs are just to be loud and show off". I told him I wanted the car tuned again wth the cut out open(instead of through the catback) to maximize the power. He then told me you shouldn't tune or run WOT with cut outs open cause it will lean out the motor to much. You should to run two separate maps if your going run cut outs WOT. LOL


Shows you how shitty your exhaust setup is.

Your right, a cut out should gain nothing over a transverse muffler.

I remember why I love destroying LS anything with my fox...

Your right, a cut out should gain nothing over a transverse muffler.

What are you talking about?

I remember why I love destroying LS anything with my fox...

Yeah yeah we've heard this before. I'm sure there were plenty of LSx's that could show your Fox taillights.

What are you talking about?

That's what I.was thinking. :confused:

My muffler is the restriction on my exhaust system. I like the sound and tone of it as opposed to running something else that sounded like shit and was loud all the time for more power.

My muffler is the restriction on my exhaust system. I like the sound and tone of it as opposed to running something else that sounded like shit and was loud all the time for more power.

True dual exhaust is your friend.

Ya, but I don't like how they sit on 4th gens. My friend has true dual dumped with dynomax bullets. Sounds awesome but is to loud for a nice weather DD.

I remember why I love destroying LS anything with my fox...

One day I'll make you eat those words.....:P

Yeah yeah we've heard this before. I'm sure there were plenty of LSx's that could show your Fox taillights.

Yes they are:(





One day I'll make you eat those words.....:P

:(

Since you guys were talking about SBF intakes, here is a thread that might be relevant.




http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=481288