View Full Version : Help with Drag susp wheel hop.


03 BUSA
06-11-2012, 08:09 PM
Been awhile since posting on here. Been busy with my daughters racing program that I never get mine car out of the garage anymore. Had this past weekend free and decided to take it to the track and play around. I am looking for some direction on my setup. I will try to post as much info as possible and just looking for some opinions to help get rid of some nasty wheel hop.

27 * 10.5 full slicks set at 11 psi
leave off of 2 step at 6k
rear shocks set at 4ext and 6 comp
front shocks set at 2 ext and 9 comp
tq arm 2nd hole from bottom.
Stock rear springs
strange da shocks all the way around with 275 front springs

Car wants to wheel hop badly (yet 8 sec cars are getting traction)
Change shock settings to 1 ext in front and 2 ext and rear
Was better but still seems to be hitting the tires too hard. Was able to make a full pass this way but still not right.

I see alot of slower 6 sp cars pulling the tires yet I can't hook up unless I run alot of weight in fuel tank and shocks set to almost full soft on extension.
I am running a short tq arm and was wondering if going up a hole would help?

At the point of swapping in a th400 but would like to make my current setup work as I see alot of others have. Again I do not get to the track very often with this car so do not worry about giving up your secrets just looking for some advise. Thanks in advance.

JL ws-6
06-11-2012, 08:45 PM
Th400 will solve 99% of your issues... if you're even considering it I would do it and be done with it. Racing the car will be alot more fun.

98blueSScamaro
06-11-2012, 09:34 PM
Been awhile since posting on here. Been busy with my daughters racing program that I never get mine car out of the garage anymore. Had this past weekend free and decided to take it to the track and play around. I am looking for some direction on my setup. I will try to post as much info as possible and just looking for some opinions to help get rid of some nasty wheel hop.

27 * 10.5 full slicks set at 11 psi
leave off of 2 step at 6k
rear shocks set at 4ext and 6 comp
front shocks set at 2 ext and 9 comp
tq arm 2nd hole from bottom.
Stock rear springs
strange da shocks all the way around with 275 front springs

Car wants to wheel hop badly (yet 8 sec cars are getting traction)
Change shock settings to 1 ext in front and 2 ext and rear
Was better but still seems to be hitting the tires too hard. Was able to make a full pass this way but still not right.

I see alot of slower 6 sp cars pulling the tires yet I can't hook up unless I run alot of weight in fuel tank and shocks set to almost full soft on extension.
I am running a short tq arm and was wondering if going up a hole would help?

At the point of swapping in a th400 but would like to make my current setup work as I see alot of others have. Again I do not get to the track very often with this car so do not worry about giving up your secrets just looking for some advise. Thanks in advance.



Sounds like you need a little bit of wheel speed and a little more transfer. wish you had some vid of it

03 BUSA
06-11-2012, 09:37 PM
How would I go about accomplishing that? More air psi and tighter ext up front?

subhumanzz
06-12-2012, 03:33 AM
put more air in the tires.

JL ws-6
06-12-2012, 08:20 AM
You have the shocks too soft, which is allowing the rear and car up flop all over the place.. I would start by putting the rears at 7/7 and the fronts to 4/8 and air the tires to 13 and see what that gets you. But if you're a once a month, or less track guy and font drive the car a lot or at all just th400 the thing... Auto cars you can race and enjoy stick cars are something you constantly work on

03 BUSA
06-12-2012, 08:31 AM
I do not drive the car at all. Sits under a car cover for most of the time. Would liek to start taking it out more. Street driving right now in non-existent.

Longbob
06-12-2012, 09:31 AM
I don't understand these wheel speed comments. This isn't a tractor pull. You do not want drag slicks to spin.

I am not a clutch guy, but I would talk to the manufacturer of your clutch and see if there is some adjustment to it where you could soften it somewhat.

These are bias ply drag slicks, right? I would adjust the shocks as suggested above and put the tire pressure at 13 lbs to start.

03 BUSA
06-12-2012, 09:47 AM
I had the tires at 14 psi and the shocks set in the rear to 4 ext and 6 comp and that is when the wheel hopped the worst. Let psi down to 11 and loosened shocks to 2 ext and it was better for that pass??

Longbob
06-12-2012, 09:52 AM
Well, that answers that is the wrong direction. Try raising your torque arm one hole and it should push the instant center a bit more rearward and higher.

Jeremy@RPMTransmissions
06-12-2012, 10:35 AM
Do you have LCA relocation brackets? If so what hole are you running them in?

03 BUSA
06-12-2012, 10:52 AM
Yes, Midwest chassis 9 inch with 4 holes. running 2nd from bottom.

98blueSScamaro
06-12-2012, 11:01 AM
I don't understand these wheel speed comments. This isn't a tractor pull. You do not want drag slicks to spin.

I am not a clutch guy, but I would talk to the manufacturer of your clutch and see if there is some adjustment to it where you could soften it somewhat.

These are bias ply drag slicks, right? I would adjust the shocks as suggested above and put the tire pressure at 13 lbs to start.

Wheel speed has alot to do with cars that don't have slipper clutch's. It's not hard to dead hook a clutch car but yet the hard part is to hook it and keep it moving forward at a good speed with out lugging the motor down. That's where shock settings tire psi and wheel speed come into play. You want to tire to spin some and carry the car forward.

JL ws-6
06-12-2012, 11:05 AM
Stick car without a slipper clutch, can not dead hook... You need wheel speed or the motor will get lugged to damn near idle, totally put of the power band and now you have to let it pull from where it makes no power up into the power band. No wheel speed = you mine as well abort the run it's going to be garbage. Even an auto car can benefit from some wheel speed depending on the car, track conditions, etc.

Longbob
06-12-2012, 11:09 AM
That makes more sense. I maintain that you don't want your slicks to spin, but rather have the slip in the clutch.

Longbob
06-12-2012, 11:14 AM
Stick car without a slipper clutch, can not dead hook... You need wheel speed or the motor will get lugged to damn near idle, totally put of the power band and now you have to let it pull from where it makes no power up into the power band. No wheel speed = you mine as well abort the run it's going to be garbage. Even an auto car can benefit from some wheel speed depending on the car, track conditions, etc.

I disagree that you ever want to intentionally spin a drag slick on a drag car. If you have problems in lugging your engine due to dead hooking then you have either the wrong converter (or clutch), gearing, etc...

Spinning your tires will alter your reaction time and affect your dial. Radials are worse on recovery than bias plys.

nocooler
06-12-2012, 11:58 AM
Yes, Midwest chassis 9 inch with 4 holes. running 2nd from bottom.

Short torque arm? where is it at?

Move it down to the bottom and the control arms up one hole.

The MWC short arm hits the tires extremely hard - my car went from burnouts off the 2 step to yanking the fronts after making these changes.

Wheel hop breaks shit period, fix it before you hurt something.

03 BUSA
06-12-2012, 12:03 PM
Yes short tq arm in the 2nd from bottom hole. The lower the hole the harder it hits.

nocooler
06-12-2012, 12:11 PM
Yes short tq arm in the 2nd from bottom hole. The lower the hole the harder it hits.

Nope sorry. Moving it up makes it hit harder and transfer faster, and unload faster. Moving it down softens the hit and makes it pick up more weight and keep the tires planted longer.

M6 cars and autos with hard hitting trans brakes need to use the lower holes.

Trust me I've got over 500 passes in my car with the MWC rear and short arm setup.

Try it - it'll hook, the worst case is you come back and call me an asshole.....:eek2:

03 BUSA
06-12-2012, 12:15 PM
That is awesome right there. How can I not make those changes after that! But I did honestly think the lower holes hit harder. When I ran the top 2 holes it would hop the front end so I moved it back down to the original 2nd from bottom setting. Eric has mentioned about the lca one hole up as you did. Thanks for the help.

nocooler
06-12-2012, 12:51 PM
Lower holes in the control arms hit harder :)

My car wouldn't hooks for shit after the heads/cam - I spent all summer chasing my tail trying to make it hook. Just trying to share what I've found.

Madman has some great posts on this subject - I thought I had them bookmarked but I guess not.

JL ws-6
06-12-2012, 05:11 PM
I disagree that you ever want to intentionally spin a drag slick on a drag car. If you have problems in lugging your engine due to dead hooking then you have either the wrong converter (or clutch), gearing, etc...

Spinning your tires will alter your reaction time and affect your dial. Radials are worse on recovery than bias plys.

There's plenty of times that getting the tires turning, especially on a stick car that you do not have the option (whether it be due to cost, availability, etc) of a slipper clutch, that spinning the tire a couple revolutions to prevent the motor from bogging is the only way you're going to get it to run right.

Nitrous car you want to run n/a and the converter is way too tight, may also benefit from a couple revolutions of spin as well, to help get the engine up in the power badn sooner. Again, a situation that you don't have the "right" converter... but it will allow a better result then you woudl get without the tire slip.

This, has been teh case on ALOT of cars I've worked on.. you don't always end up with the absoulte perfect parts combo for absolute best track performance.. a common problem with cars that are driven alot.

Track car I would say change the part all day long and not hesitste. Street car that you want to drive, I'm not telling someone to put a softloc type slipper clutch in, or telling someone to put a 5500 converter in the car so it will run at it's best if you want to drive it home. Just doesn't make sense.

If you're a serious bracket racer then a 10 pt change in the water grains in the air is probably enough to send you over the deep end. The guys that this will help, aren't at that level. I agree that slippage for what you're doing isn't going to help you at all. Most bracket cars I know of, that are serious are running 10 times the tire they need, simply becuase it takes that variable out 100%. For the average street car guy on here that's having a problem with his m6 car falling on it's face at the hit becuase it's getting too much traction, a little slippage on the track surface is going to serve him well.

Longbob
06-12-2012, 05:31 PM
JL,

I have read your post multiple times and I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say. I am not trying to be obtuse, I swear.

I am a serious racer and my cars must be ready to win a heads-up round within the same race as they must be consistent enough to dial. This type of racing is about as difficult as it comes. I have to know as much as possible about tuning and engine design as I do setting up a car properly.

Since this section is "Drag Racing Tech" I am suggesting things to the original poster that will make it the best drag car as possible with what he has to work with. If this is supposed to be for a street, go to the store type of car then I will bow out of the conversation.

JL ws-6
06-12-2012, 06:29 PM
You're not wrong with what you're saying... I just know the situation the OP is dealing with and without putting an auto in the car, or a pro shifted manual with a slipper clutch the only way the engine won't get bogged out of it's powerband is to let it spin a touch. Predictable, probably not to the level you're looking for or I would need for my own junk either. But, it will result in better luck then if he dead hooks it and the engine gets pulled down to 1200 rpm or something like that. I hve 2 cars I have dealt with recently, that are in this exact situation. Car either dead hooks and bogs the motor, which results in abolulte garbage 60 foot and 330 times, and then runs the back 1/2 o.k., or it spins ALOT, 60 foot is junk and 330 is junk, then runs as it should... or the car will spin just a touch, 60 foot isn't bad, 330 is decent, and then it's better from there on out.

One car I have in mind is a 3700 lb heads cam car, m6 tranny, typical street type clutch to hold a decent level of power, no slipper clutch, etc. We get the car to just spin a touch and the 60 foot and rest of the run, is a GOOD bit better then if it dead hooks, or completely blows the tires off.

I know after I changed my car over for nitrous (converter, gear) it wouldn't 60 foot for crap, engine was lugged and it wouldn't get going until probably 100 feet out then it would go great.... if I aired the tires up enough to get it to spin just a touch, the car would 60 foot a little better and the rst of the run was alot better. Spray it liked to hook hard, but there was enough power to get the engine into the powerband instantly.


What are you racing for a class? Your needs sound similar to the 8.50 index that I'm building for now. Need a consistant car that has enough to run 7.90... as you're going to play on the top end, but it's not a douple breakout class so you need to know your car, know where it is speed wise, watch the other car, car has to stay together and remain consistant as well, since there's so many other things going on you can't have a car that changes a ton with weather.. 1/2 the races are at night, 1/2 are during the day so you really don't want something that's really finicky... etc. Need to have your stuff togeher if you want to win.

Longbob
06-12-2012, 06:52 PM
One of the cars is the one in my signature. It is a 1998 LT1 Firebird that I race in Stock Eliminator. I am building a 2005 Sunfire for Super Stock that will be in GT/AA. The motor is completed. It is a LS76.

I will periodically drive a 1991 Olds Calais in GT/FA with an iron head LT1. And ever so often a 1968 Hemi Cuda in SS/AH.

All of the cars have to be consistent enough to dial and within a few minutes later have a heads-up then in just a few more minutes could be in a dial race again. Reading the weather can be humbling. I had crazy wind conditions at the Summer Nationals in Topeka a few weeks ago, but it all worked out in my favor.

03 BUSA
06-13-2012, 07:49 AM
Alright made the changes to the lca's. One hole up and lowered tq arm to lowest hole. set pinion at -1.2 and adjusted rear shocks to 6 comp and 4 ext. Will see what that gets us.

JL ws-6
06-13-2012, 05:19 PM
One of the cars is the one in my signature. It is a 1998 LT1 Firebird that I race in Stock Eliminator. I am building a 2005 Sunfire for Super Stock that will be in GT/AA. The motor is completed. It is a LS76.

I will periodically drive a 1991 Olds Calais in GT/FA with an iron head LT1. And ever so often a 1968 Hemi Cuda in SS/AH.

All of the cars have to be consistent enough to dial and within a few minutes later have a heads-up then in just a few more minutes could be in a dial race again. Reading the weather can be humbling. I had crazy wind conditions at the Summer Nationals in Topeka a few weeks ago, but it all worked out in my favor.

Then you're running the whole spectrum for the most part, but all race cars. Stuff I am suggesting would work for a car that's driven around alot... for what you're doing, and what I'm building for it does not apply. 2 different worlds.

The weather situations you're talking about we deal with as well, afternoon/night races, early morning qualifying then afternoon races, etc. One of the main reasons I am looking to go alcohol. Weather effects are greatly reduced.

JL ws-6
06-13-2012, 05:20 PM
Busa get video from the drivers side down on the car, and if you can get it in slow motion. This will let us see what the car is doing and help more.. see how it's hitting the tire and if it's holding the hit or unloading, etc. Alot better advise can be given off this, fwiw.

03 BUSA
06-13-2012, 09:11 PM
I was able to get the car back on the ground tonight and getting underneath the car with the lca's in the 2nd from top hole I am going downhill about 2.5 degrees from the rearend to the body. Everything I read says this is the opposite of what I want. Just wanted to get your thoughts with the new measurments. Also I can get -1.2 working anlge on the pinion. 0 on tailshaft and -1.2 on the rear. With the car on the ground with gauge zeroed to ground and the put on rear I get a positive .3 actual pinion angle. Should I try to get -1.2 in relation to the ground?