Cadillac CTS-V - Spring rate question

I have the GC setup with the 500/550 springs. I also have a mixed shock arrangement with FE4 up front and FG2 in back because of a bad front shock and no single FG2 available at the time. To the previous owner it was probably fine, but for me it just seems too soft, sloppy, and too much body roll. The dampening feels even to me, but I know it's still kind of odd to have the different shocks. While there are many options as far as different springs, shocks, sway bars, etc.. I'm unsure which to tackle first. From what ive read the hotchkis kit is worth getting, but that only solves body roll. I was looking at maybe going with a 600/650 setup, but I'm wondering if it will affect weight distribution and traction under heavy acceleration... Anyways I read through some previous threads, but couldn't find specific feedback. I don't track the car... It's my DD and will occasionally run the 1/4. Any help is appreciated

I have the GC too and just went back to the 600 \ 650 springs. I had the 500 \ 550 springs thinking it would make the car ride better but all I got was a sloppy ride. Rolling into the throttle coming out of the turns would make the back of the twitch instead of rotate.
I put the stiffer springs back in and raised the car about 1/2 and if feels fine now. It looked better slammed, but what I have now is a good compromise.

Can't u turn the height down with the GC kit (perches) to compensate for the stiffer springs making it sit slightly higher?

I have the GC too and just went back to the 600 \ 650 springs. I had the 500 \ 550 springs thinking it would make the car ride better but all I got was a sloppy ride. Rolling into the throttle coming out of the turns would make the back of the twitch instead of rotate.
I put the stiffer springs back in and raised the car about 1/2 and if feels fine now. It looked better slammed, but what I have now is a good compromise.

Thanks I'm leaning towards the stiffer springs, but I wanted to hear opinions. My buddy was saying I shouldn't because of weight transfer when launching during a race, but I also have roughly 200lbs of extra weight from audio equipment and dynamat which will help me with traction. Do you happen to have part numbers? Or should I just call GC directly?

Can't u turn the height down with the GC kit (perches) to compensate for the stiffer springs making it sit slightly higher?

The rear dictates how low you can go since its not a strut or coilover setup

So you're saying the rear isn't really adjustable. Only the front? Cause I've seen some cars sitting slammed with GC kits. Ferny's car is low but I recall him saying he had to remove a perch or something to make it that low.

The rear comes down 1" with ground control, no lower unless you start modifying the mount even more than the instructions call for, with something like the mighty mouse kit. You can't really raise the height in the rear due to the short length of the springs, but a 1" drop will have no ill effect on anything so I can't imagine you would want it raise it back up.

I had no weight transfer issues at the drag strip with my 600/650 springs, the car hooked very well. I think the 600/650 rates are perfect and I wouldn't have wanted to go lower, but I don't drive it more than 3 to 4 days a week and it's not on bad roads when I do.

Damn... So the H&R's prob drop the car lower in the rear than the GC kit

So you're saying the rear isn't really adjustable. Only the front? Cause I've seen some cars sitting slammed with GC kits. Ferny's car is low but I recall him saying he had to remove a perch or something to make it that low.

The rear has very limited adjustability... I took the adjuster ring out to drop it another 1/2". Mine sits pretty nice, but not as low as an H&R spring

The rear comes down 1" with ground control, no lower unless you start modifying the mount even more than the instructions call for, with something like the mighty mouse kit. You can't really raise the height in the rear due to the short length of the springs, but a 1" drop will have no ill effect on anything so I can't imagine you would want it raise it back up.

I had no weight transfer issues at the drag strip with my 600/650 springs, the car hooked very well. I think the 600/650 rates are perfect and I wouldn't have wanted to go lower, but I don't drive it more than 3 to 4 days a week and it's not on bad roads when I do.

Nice to hear thanks

Damn... So the H&R's prob drop the car lower in the rear than the GC kit

Pretty much

If that's the case, I think I'll stick with my H&R and just get some K-Sports later if needed. I was under the impression the GC kit would go much lower than that.

If that's the case, I think I'll stick with my H&R and just get some K-Sports later if needed. I was under the impression the GC kit would go much lower than that.

Yea I think it's more for picking your spring rates and adjustability rather than going slammed. It was on the car when I bought it, so I figure I'll get it to where I like it

That's true. A big advantage there in itself. I just like the slammed look and since it's my daily and I'm not tracking it, spring rate choice would be nice but not 100% needed in my case.

Btw, what wheels are u running? They look like polished accessory wheels in ur avatar but bigger. Lol

Indeed they are the polished accessory wheels

They look nice on there man. Knew that had to be what they were unless u had some CCW's or something.

Appreciate the heads up on the rear spring lowering amount with the GC kit. Would have been pissed if I sold my H&R's and ordered those to find out they won't even get as low as the springs alone. Lol

The stock shock's pressurized design is what limits the drop in the rear with the gc kit.. With qa1s you can slam it. The fe4 and fg2 reach a rested compression limit whereas the qa1 does not.

The fg2 will allow even less drop than a fe4 because it's much tighter. The mm kit ultimately raises the mount point of the shock allowing for even more drop with the gc kit and stock shocks, and is a much better option than removing the upper perch. I wouldn't remove that... although it seems in place I can't see what would hold the spring in place in the event the suspension was unexpectedly unloaded..

They look nice on there man. Knew that had to be what they were unless u had some CCW's or something.

Appreciate the heads up on the rear spring lowering amount with the GC kit. Would have been pissed if I sold my H&R's and ordered those to find out they won't even get as low as the springs alone. Lol

All of you guys need to do more research before you start dismissing Ground Control. Their basic kit for the CTS-V includes 10" long springs. The reason why you can't drop the back end way down is because those default springs are too long. Solution: call GC and tell them you want a set of Eibach 800.250.600 springs for the front and 800.250.650 springs for the rear. Then go on eBay and spend the $120 for a set of four C5/C6 endlinks. Finish it up with a trip to Home Depot for four 12mm washers four 12mm nuts, and a drill bit to ream out the existing holes.

Oh, and by the way, if you're concerned with body lean, start with the Hotchkis sway bar kit. Don't bother with springs. Sway bars are the only way to reduce body lean. You could replace your springs with solid steel plates and it wouldn't help your lean issues a bit. Keep in mind that a stiffer sway bar will also make your car's response to common mode transients (i.e.: bumps you hit with both wheels at the same time) much faster and harsher.

Regardless of what you decide to do, I don't want to see this:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-cts-v/277060d1296517037-whats-best-kit-way-lower-04-cts-v-my-v-slammed.jpg

Sweet! Makes sense! I wouldnt want to remove perches or ruin the integrity of the kit. But... The custom ordered shorter springs seems like a great idea. And the MM kit would be used regardless to avoid any self leveling.

Only question is... Would it be worth it to do all of that or just order some K-Sports for a little more which would be fully adjustable and come with new shocks.

Sweet! Makes sense! I wouldnt want to remove perches or ruin the integrity of the kit. But... The custom ordered shorter springs seems like a great idea. And the MM kit would be used regardless to avoid any self leveling.

I have the MM kit. I installed it, test drove with it, and subsequently removed it.

It's presently sitting in a box, collecting dust because it's absolutely unnecessary.


Only question is... Would it be worth it to do all of that or just order some K-Sports for a little more which would be fully adjustable and come with new shocks.

K-sports are unreliable, cost more than double what you'd be spending (you'd still have to buy end links), and are incompatible with aftermarket rear sway bars.

Why would you go with an 8" 650 in front vs the std 10" in 650? There's no limit to drop in the front.

you can slam the rear with qa1 even with a 10" spring

And u don't have any self leveling issues with the stock shocks? Cause my old car would self level until I put some spacers in the rear.

I have the MM kit. I installed it, test drove with it, and subsequently removed it.

It's presently sitting in a box, collecting dust because it's absolutely unnecessary.




K-sports are unreliable, cost more than double what you'd be spending (you'd still have to buy end links), and are incompatible with aftermarket rear sway bars.

Really? What was the issue with it?

I considered it only to possibly suspend the upper mount and get less clunk against the body ...the clunking drives me nuts!...

I'm learning something about the GC gear haha... Nice I guess I didn't read enough into the part numbers. Yea I'm not worried about being slammed I just want a more firm and planted ride...

And to add to the conversation I think KSport is garbage I've known people to use their coilovers on imports and had failures, noises, adjuster rings seizing, etc

I'm learning too. This thread should be a sticky. Lots of good info!

Why would you go with an 8" 650 in front vs the std 10" in 650? There's no limit to drop in the front.

you can slam the rear with qa1 even with a 10" spring

Prerequisite:

http://performance-suspension.eibach.com/uploads/File/upload/ers-14springratesheet.pdf

The above document implies that you should be trying to preload your springs to 80% of their stock height and avoid compressing them to more than 30% of their stock height.

What I believe Eibach did when they originally came up with this kit was to round the 3850 lb curb weight of the CTS-V to 4,000 lbs and distribute it equally amongst all four springs. With their stock 500 lb, 10" long springs and 1000 lbs applied per spring, that would create the perfect 2" drop or 80% preload.

Since the rear springs are mounted separately from the rear shocks, the springs should experience more force compared to the front springs and therefore compress more during bumps (paraphrasing what one of the GC guys told me on the phone). That's why GC utilized 50 lbs more rear springs.

Unfortunately, I think they made a couple of mistakes. The weight of the CTS-V with 17.5 gallons of gasoline and a 180 lb driver is actually 4130 lbs. And it has a 54/46 weight distribution (2230 lbs front, 1900 lbs rear). Divide those numbers in half and you have 1,115 lbs applied to each front spring and 950 lbs on each rear spring.

Here's where it all comes together:

1. Assuming 1,115 lbs preload per front spring, if you select 650 lb springs, your front springs will compress 1.72" when you set your car on them. That's only 83% preload on a 10" spring, but it's 78.5% preload on an 8" spring.

If you had selected the standard 10", 500 lb springs that come with the kit, you would've been fine, but with the higher spring rate, you won't have the correct preload and as a side effect, the car will ride higher.

Fortunately, here, the GC kit gives you plenty of adjustability, so if you don't care about the finer points discussed above, you can definitely get away with 10" springs (as I have for years).

2. Assuming 950 lbs preload per rear spring, if you select 650 lb springs, your front springs will compress 1.46" when you set your car on them. That's only 85% preload on a 10" spring, but it's 82% preload on an 8" spring.

3. Based on the weight distribution and rear suspension design, I think it could be argued that CTS-Vs should be running equal-sized springs on both front and back wheels. As identified in #2 above, preload is still out of spec when with the 8" springs when you're simply looking at weight. Once the design of the rear suspension compensates, you're closer to an optimal design.

4. You're slightly further away from coil bind with 8" springs than 10" springs. Then again, coil bind might save you from damaging a fender during a big hit, but you have bump stops for that.

10" 650 lb spring - 1.72" preload = 8.28" spring height
30% of 10" is 3"
8.28" - 3" = 5.28"
5.28" @ 650 lbs = 3432 lbs (static load) before coil bind

8" 650 lb spring - 1.72" preload = 6.28" spring height
30% of 8" is 2.4"
8.28" - 2.4" = 5.88"
5.88" @ 650 lbs = 3822 lbs (static load) before coil bind

http://bump-drafts.com/2010/01/12/nascar-tech-for-fans-coil-binding-and-bump-stops/

KW V3 set is similar comes with 250mm(~10inch) rear springs 60mm ID 90N/mm or 514 pound/inch so 575/514. After towing bikes a few times the rears were more than slammed so I have decided to order a set of 110 N/mm (628 pound/inch) so 575/628 f/r setup similar to the popular 600/650 GC setup. No worries about rear jacking it self up with KW v3 however that may be helpful when loading up the trunk and towing. These kits are great given the spring rate choices out there for flexibility. I would highly recommend the GC or KW kit over buying the hr sport springs.

Oh, and by the way, if you're concerned with body lean, start with the Hotchkis sway bar kit. Don't bother with springs. Sway bars are the only way to reduce body lean. You could replace your springs with solid steel plates and it wouldn't help your lean issues a bit.


No, that's just wrong. I installed hotchkis sway bars and they had a small noticable effect on body roll. I installed the ground control with 600/650 springs and it reduced body roll by at least 2 times that of the sway bars.

Sway bars help to compress the inside spring of the car when the outside spring is being compressed from weight transfer in a turn. They help compensate for body roll, I agree.

Stiffer springs are more resistant to compression, so when cornering and the weight transfers to the outside springs, stiffer springs do not compress as much and so the car does not lean/roll as much.

Sometimes I think you get so caught up with your research and reading that you forget to think.

Can you explain how springs have nothing to do with body lean?

:corn:

No, that's just wrong. I installed hotchkis sway bars and they had a small noticable effect on body roll. I installed the ground control with 600/650 springs and it reduced body roll by at least 2 times that of the sway bars.

Sometimes I think you get so caught up with your research and reading that you forget to think.

Can you explain how springs have nothing to do with body lean?

:corn:

Your statement about the GC 600/650 springs reducing body roll more than the Hotchkis sway bars is puzzling. I had exactly the opposite experience, but I ran the modifications the opposite way (springs first, sway bars second).

I feel bad about posting a Wikipedia quote here, but I've got to be at work in 30 minutes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sway_bar

"A sway bar increases the suspension's roll stiffness—its resistance to roll in turns, independent of its spring rate in the vertical direction."

As I understand it, three things resist body lean: your shocks, springs, and sway bars. Shocks are primarily intended to dampen movement. Springs contribute to resisting shock compression, but are primarily intended to return shocks to their nominal position, and sway bars transfer differential load through torsion (which is why thicker bars deflect less and transmit more load) away from the heavily loaded axle.

Personally, all I noticed with the stiffer Eibach springs was a reduced tendency for my CTS-V to squat or nose dive under acceleration and braking. When I lowered the car by 1.5" using the GC kit, body lean was significantly reduced, but that wasn't a function of the springs themselves. It was because of the vehicle's new, lower CoG. When I added a sway bar on top of all of that, the car became very resistant to body lean and made it possible to "comfortably" (relatively speaking) exceed the traction provided by the 245/45-18 KDW 2's on my wheels during continuous cornering.

In summary, kudos to you for reminding me (/facepalm) that springs contribute to resisting the compressive loading of shocks during cornering. :cheers:

Great discussion guys... I like the specific info. Another thing I'd like to ask is how lowering the car affects the swaybar? I understand the angle changes and there are adjustable endlinks, but what is the optimum angle?

On the spring topic I'm wondering if I shouldn't try a 600/600 combo since I have a pretty extensive audio setup putting my car at roughly 4100 without me in it. My weight distribution has to be close to 50/50 now

Prerequisite:

10" 650 lb spring - 1.72" preload = 8.28" spring height
30% of 10" is 3"
8.28" - 3" = 5.28"
5.28" @ 650 lbs = 3432 lbs (static load) before coil bind

8" 650 lb spring - 1.72" preload = 6.28" spring height
30% of 8" is 2.4"
8.28" - 2.4" = 5.88"
5.88" @ 650 lbs = 3822 lbs (static load) before coil bind



How are you measuring your preload? Are you loading the spring in the perch and measuring the compressed distance?

I didn't read your whole post. Scratch that last statement.

What starting point did you use for spring in the perch is a better question? Or are you just adjusting to get the ride height based on your calculations above?

KW V3 set is similar comes with 250mm(~10inch) rear springs 60mm ID 90N/mm or 514 pound/inch so 575/514. After towing bikes a few times the rears were more than slammed so I have decided to order a set of 110 N/mm (628 pound/inch) so 575/628 f/r setup similar to the popular 600/650 GC setup. No worries about rear jacking it self up with KW v3 however that may be helpful when loading up the trunk and towing. These kits are great given the spring rate choices out there for flexibility. I would highly recommend the GC or KW kit over buying the hr sport springs.

The KW is completely different than the GC because it maintains the stock rear suspension where as GC converts it to coilovers. And because GC relocates the spring to the shock mount, you cannot compare their spring rating because you have changed the elver arm and therefore two different spring could have the same effective wheel rate. therefore a 650# spring from KW is different then running a 650# GC spring.

The KW is completely different than the GC because it maintains the stock rear suspension where as GC converts it to coilovers. And because GC relocates the spring to the shock mount, you cannot compare their spring rating because you have changed the elver arm and therefore two different spring could have the same effective wheel rate. therefore a 650# spring from KW is different then running a 650# GC spring.

Ground control doesn't relocate the rear springs. It just adds an adjustable collar to the upper spring mount, the shock remains separate

Ground control doesn't relocate the rear springs. It just adds an adjustable collar to the upper spring mount, the shock remains separate

For some reason i thought it convert the rears to true coil overs..oh well. my mistake

Just the high dollar penske and the LG Bilstein setups convert to rear coilovers. I don't know what rear springs those setups come with but would expect it to be much lower than the kw and gc kits.

Just the high dollar penske and the LG Bilstein setups convert to rear coilovers. I don't know what rear springs those setups come with but would expect it to be much lower than the kw and gc kits.

they up the front to 700# i believe and the rear to 400# on the LGs

Well I put the 600/650’s on this weekend. First, I was way wrong about slamming it in the rear with a 10” spring. I can’t get any lower than 26.5 with this 650# spring and I know im not riding on the bumpstop, so fuzzy is right about the shorter spring if you are going that high on the rates and want a ridiculous drop...personally 26.5 is as low as I’ll go anyway, the fender is right at the tire edge but not overlapping, so I’m happy with it. Just wanted to change that feedback in case someone took it as fact.

Anyway, huge improvement over the 500/550 with the qa1s. I’m still not set on keeping the qa1s unless I can get it dialed in better but at least I don’t feel like they are completely worthless now. I spent most of my lunch today driving around and adjusting them stiffer and stiffer…still not right yet. I have about 50% more clicks to go before they are on full stiff. I’m running out of patience for these f*** adjustable shocks. I still can’t see the benefit unless perhaps I lived in central Kansas, and the rebuildable aspect…but that doesn’t help if you don’t like the product to begin with. With fg2s, the gc 500/550 is a VERY good compromise between stock and firm. I would NOT recommend qa1s with a 500/550 setu (or “stock” qa1s with any setup for that matter).

I still can’t take a ‘quick’ corner hard, it just isn’t balanced. For whatever reason, I can’t get the rear to rotate at all, and the back end hops/skips some... I know this is due to the firmer springs and of course im on city streets most of the time so I can’t get too crazy, but it understeers more than I expected. The one thing I liked about the stock, or pseudo stock setups, was that 100% safe, predictable rotation…now it feels like I’d be glued until it let go and I would fly off the road. I’m going to switch the rear sway to the stiffer setting and see if that helps, but it may just be a characteristic of the firm shocks/springs. I need to hit some “closed” roads and discover where it lets go now.

One other thing I did is firm up the cradle bushings pretty good…I love the feel….but it may just be too stiff with everything else going on. Luckily what I did is reversible so I might have to change that too..

So shocks aside, the 600/650 spring rate isn’t too firm or rough at all, but it is quite different than stock and might be too “stiff” for some. I believe the V was meant to have a ride this firm and I happen to love the road feedback you get from these stiffer springs… I just hope I can get it dialed in with the qa1s or I might find myself wasting almost another grand just to get the ride I want from the car. With the fg2s, I feel the 500/550 was just as firm from a body roll perspective, as the 600/650 and qa1s, probably because of the

Thanks for the feedback I'm on the fence about getting stiffer springs or just waiting a while for some KW or LG coils... I realize my shocks are going to be an issue

Nevermind

K-sports are unreliable, cost more than double what you'd be spending (you'd still have to buy end links), and are incompatible with aftermarket rear sway bars.



Only thing unreliable is the info you provide here. lol
Did you own a set of K-sport coilovers for the 2003-07 CTS and had some
problems?
People seem to trust you on this fourm so you should grt your facts kinda straight before you lay bogus info out there. Just my opinion.

I have the K-Sport coilovers (actually I have the D2 Coilovers which are EXACTLY the same as K-Sport. Same manufacture, same plant, same product) on my V1 and have had ZERO issues with the preformance OR reliability. Only thing I changed was the front springs to a 10 inch Hypercoil #625. http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj599/rexrexford/840fffde.jpg

And I wouldn't say i'm easy on them,
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj599/rexrexford/Cadillac%20Challenge%20Round%205/June-02-2012-SpeedVentures4-Black1125CLI_47928.jpghttp://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj599/rexrexford/8bdbd4f5.jpg

I have no idea why you would have to buy End-Links?
My car came with end-links. Don't most come with end-links?
I have the STOCK end-links and have has ZERO issues!

As for K-Sport being incompatible with aftermarket rear sway bars, I have the stock sway bars but I seriously doubt you will have any problems with ANY rear sway bars

K-Sport (D2) are a good prodict for the money. You can get these for under
$1000 and I would recomend them.
And I actually HAVE THESE ON MY CAR!
Before these I had KW V3 on the same car.
Don't listen to unreliable info from someone who has never used them.

nice pic in the middle there!.. so your car doesn't bounce like a fkn pogo stick? Must be nice. And Ksports are <$1000?
Seems like you get what you pay for??: $250 Springs,random shocks < $500 GC kit, random shocks < K sport-$1000 < kwv3 $2xxx < LG $2xxx < Penske $4xxx <V2 $70,000 ?

The missing link is ride ride ride….can any of these produce a comfortable ride? Who knows. There’s a tradeoff with every change you make to the car.

You are right, there is all kinds of jacked up info in here, including mine....but I don’t claim to be right about anything so I’m exempt from responsibility for bad info.

--
So just to follow up, after researching more, I came to the conclusion that perhaps my sway bar might be binding, which apparently can greatly exaggerate the spring rate. Then I remembered that a couple months ago, instead of reordering more stock bushings for my stock front bar (I lost one), I used the new energy suspension ones I had for my eibach bar. Their inside diameter was too large for the stock bar, so I wrapped gorilla tape around the stock bar to take up the slack. In addition, I overtorqued the sway bar brackets, which, in combination with unlubed bushings, might have resulted in a bar that wasn’t rotating freely within the bushing. To test this theory I unbolted the endlinks from the swaybar and rode around. It steered like a zamboni but it was definitely WAY smoother and was ALMOST tolerable…at least it didn’t bounce like a slammed 1992 toyota truck anymore…

I returned home and ended up just putting the eibach bar back on along with lubing the hell out of the bushings. Took it for another drive. Much sharper steering than with the stock bar….good-, but as I remembered from before, effort to steer was greatly increased (in a bad way- ruts, crown, bumpsteer, etc), and worse, the pogo was back…so I clearly need the least intrusive bar setup possible so I’m going to order new bushings for the stock bar and see how that feels. Or, maybe leave it and swap a 550 in the front and try to contain it with the qa1, or put the 650 up front and 600 in the rear.

At any rate I’m convinced the sway bar is the root of at least 75% of the problem. The rear just doesn’t pogo like the front . I read a lot about endlink angles and bar angles- - something to the tune of “ you not only want the bar neutral according to the rested ride height, the links should ideally be perpendicular to the frame, to make certain that the bar flexes only vertically when the car turns. If links sit at a lower angle, you’re then creating added spring rate with a horizontal flex” (or some shit like that). Also important that we lube the inside of the bushing (especially with poly) so the bar can move in its limited operating range without binding.

Im thinking I might have put the links on backwards at some time or another…IE on the driver side, staring directly at the link from the wheel well, should it be anged like this “ / ” or this “ \” ? same for the passenger side. Seems if I switch them the other way, the rested angle of the link might would be more up and down rather than angled. I presume this is what the main benefit of the z06 links is since once you lower, the distance between the mounting points dictates that you need a shorter link to maintain the optimal operating position.

I did notice that my eibach bar’s mounting points are a good bit lower than the stockers since the bar is angled differently, meaning that even when loaded, there’s less preload on the bar with the stock links. Maybe if I replace the stock links with z06 on the eibach bar, it will level out…too tough to call. I still want to try the stock bar with new links to see how that feels.

I just don’t want to ride on a fking pogo stick anymore. If it costs me $1000 to fix it, ok. If it costs $2000, ok. But I don’t want to F with it again for a WHILE. I just had a baby and my wife is getting very impatient with me,…women don’t understand when you spend 8 hours on your car, drive it, then say…,,”it’s just not right” LOL… I may have to resort to putting tools in my trunk and working on my car during my lunch time :/

If you need 550 pound 10" springs, let me know. I've got a pair.

thanks., I've already got a pair of 500/550/600 and 650...Im thinking the 650 MIGHT be better up front and 600 in rear. I never have people in the back seat or junk in the trunk

thanks., I've already got a pair of 500/550/600 and 650...Im thinking the 650 MIGHT be better up front and 600 in rear. I never have people in the back seat or junk in the trunk

I have 650 up front, and I'm thinking about backing down to 650 in the rear. 600 in the rear with 10" springs doesn't quite allow you to get level with the front if you want to cut a nice, aggressive stance.