View Full Version : Automobile Mag: '12 ZL1 tops the '13 GT500, Part 1 of 3


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texas94z
06-19-2012, 08:09 AM
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_ford_shelby _gt500/

From an on-track perspective there is no contest. For this year, at least, the victory well and truly belongs to the ZL1. Its handling capabilities far exceed the straight-line advantage owned by the Shelby. But remember, this victory may only be short-lived. After all, we are less than two years away from the birth of the redesigned Mustang, which will likely ditch the ancient live rear axle in favor of the superior independent rear suspension. And this could mean we rewrite the rulebook yet again. Then again, as we found out today, the rulebook doesn't mean much anyway.


Ouch! I feel bad for the GT500 fan boys and the Ford engineers after reading this article :(. The only positive thing the author said about the "stuck pig" was the "monstrous" power.

:cool:

1ltcap
06-19-2012, 09:08 AM
Marking so i can read the article tonight.

thunderstruck507
06-19-2012, 09:53 AM
Interesting read. Unfortunately I doubt anyone cares...they're too busy looking at the hp/weight and 1/4 times.

Tainted
06-19-2012, 10:40 AM
I dont think the ZL1 outdid anyone.

It may be faster around a track, but who honestly goes canyon carving against another car on public roads? Its as moot of a point as the gt500 can do 200mph.

theyre both great cars, and hopefully only adds fuel to the fire.

zz4camaro1980
06-19-2012, 10:55 AM
:corn: I wonder how many times the words fanboy, nut hugger, nut swinger, etc are going to be used in this thread.

Like I said before, GM built an all around great car that can do everything well. And that includes 1/4 mile, just because the GT500 is faster doesnt mean the ZL1 isnt fast at all. Ford built a great motor then did the best they could to conform the car around it. They just want to win the marketing/numbers game and dont truly care about having an all around great car as long as they have the bragging rights (which is what most care about anyway)...

"As I wheeled the Shelby GT500 around Gingerman, the first thing to strike me was how long the gear ratios are. A full lap needs only second and third gear, a preposterous fact when you realize I was maxing out at about 130 mph on the back straight. Having just two usable gears really limited my choices and I often felt either over- or undergeared for each bend."

And from the inside line article: "What the Ford gains in perception, it loses in drivability thanks to a tall 3.31 rear-end gear that allows it to reach 60 mph in 1st gear and claim a top speed over 200 mph. This gearing is purely a marketing tool designed to achieve stunning 0-60 numbers and a headline-worthy top speed. The trade-off is overcoming that tall ratio every time you pull away from a stop in the Shelby. Ample torque makes this manageable, but it still requires considerable attention to an area where the ZL1 is utterly seamless in comparison."

metalmilitia606
06-19-2012, 11:04 AM
Hmmmm this is one article out of the dozens of others that claim the mustang as better. Magazines are so subjective, it's like politics. It's almost impossible to get to the real results lol.

1ltcap
06-19-2012, 11:27 AM
Hmmmm this is one article out of the dozens of others that claim the mustang as better. Magazines are so subjective, it's like politics. It's almost impossible to get to the real results lol.

i haven't read the article yet....but your post above......i'm shocked to hear someone say that. shocked i tells ya.

texas94z
06-19-2012, 11:39 AM
Interesting read. Unfortunately I doubt anyone cares...they're too busy looking at the hp/weight and 1/4 times.

There is nothing wrong with a heated American muscle drag racing debate between the Ford and Chevy loyalist. I love the passion of the two sides because it creates fierce competition between the brands. The competition between Chevy and Ford is what makes those two companys the best in the world.

HioSSilver
06-19-2012, 11:42 AM
No surprises in that test. Now I can't wait to watch the 1LE to spank the shit out of the boss.

texas94z
06-19-2012, 12:01 PM
:corn: I wonder how many times the words fanboy, nut hugger, nut swinger, etc are going to be used in this thread.

Like I said before, GM built an all around great car that can do everything well. And that includes 1/4 mile, just because the GT500 is faster doesnt mean the ZL1 isnt fast at all. Ford built a great motor then did the best they could to conform the car around it. They just want to win the marketing/numbers game and dont truly care about having an all around great car as long as they have the bragging rights (which is what most care about anyway)...

"As I wheeled the Shelby GT500 around Gingerman, the first thing to strike me was how long the gear ratios are. A full lap needs only second and third gear, a preposterous fact when you realize I was maxing out at about 130 mph on the back straight. Having just two usable gears really limited my choices and I often felt either over- or undergeared for each bend."

And from the inside line article: "What the Ford gains in perception, it loses in drivability thanks to a tall 3.31 rear-end gear that allows it to reach 60 mph in 1st gear and claim a top speed over 200 mph. This gearing is purely a marketing tool designed to achieve stunning 0-60 numbers and a headline-worthy top speed. The trade-off is overcoming that tall ratio every time you pull away from a stop in the Shelby. Ample torque makes this manageable, but it still requires considerable attention to an area where the ZL1 is utterly seamless in comparison."

The ZL1 and GT500 are two diverse cars that excel in different areas of performance. The GT500 is in its own league and truly has no competition. The ZL1 and BOSS Laguna Seca is a better comparison IMO. But ultimately, you have to compare the two supercharged beasts against each other.

TriShield
06-19-2012, 12:08 PM
I dont think the ZL1 outdid anyone.

It may be faster around a track, but who honestly goes canyon carving against another car on public roads? Its as moot of a point as the gt500 can do 200mph.

theyre both great cars, and hopefully only adds fuel to the fire.

My friends and I do it all the time here in Arizona.

My G8 GXP really shines on mountain roads like 89A here, it's chassis is the most impressive part of the car and that's saying a lot. It has no issues keeping up with my friends new BOSS 302 on these roads and it's much more fun than going to Firebird.

There's nothing better than having a car that can both push you into your seat and against your door.

Tainted
06-19-2012, 12:13 PM
My friends and I do it all the time here in Arizona.

My G8 GXP really shines on mountain roads like 89A here, it's chassis is the most impressive part of the car and that's saying a lot. It has no issues keeping up with my friends new BOSS 302 on these roads and it's much more fun than going to Firebird.

There's nothing better than having a car that can both push you into your seat and against your door.

Wish there was something like that here. Any of the road course tracks here suck, and I cant think of any road to do it on either. I guess if you live where you can do these things then its all gravy. Sadly I dont :(

1ltcap
06-19-2012, 01:04 PM
if your car's pushing you against the door, you may wanna upgrade your seats. :)

TriShield
06-19-2012, 01:06 PM
Wish there was something like that here. Any of the road course tracks here suck, and I cant think of any road to do it on either. I guess if you live where you can do these things then its all gravy. Sadly I dont :(

The mountains is one of the good things about living here.

ULTIMATEORANGESS
06-19-2012, 01:35 PM
yes,GM should be embarrassed.

they made an all purpose pony car.

1ltcap
06-19-2012, 01:41 PM
Wish there was something like that here. Any of the road course tracks here suck, and I cant think of any road to do it on either. I guess if you live where you can do these things then its all gravy. Sadly I dont :(

i've got nj motorsports park near me, and although i've not run there yet, i hope to do so before the summers out. it's supposed to be one of the best tracks on the east coast....definitely one of the hardest.

Z Fury
06-19-2012, 02:55 PM
My friends and I do it all the time here in Arizona.

My G8 GXP really shines on mountain roads like 89A here, it's chassis is the most impressive part of the car and that's saying a lot. It has no issues keeping up with my friends new BOSS 302 on these roads and it's much more fun than going to Firebird.

There's nothing better than having a car that can both push you into your seat and against your door.

I'm guessing that your friend needs a driver mod, or was sand bagging it. I don't see any other way the G8 could hang with a Boss on a twisty road. Its like saying a Ford Taurus SHO has no problem hanging with a 1LE Camaro.

chasgiv3
06-19-2012, 03:38 PM
So basically if you buy the Mustang you typically are missing most of your teeth and have a tendency to marry your Sister?

I agree with the author then!...LMAO

Theblacknightls1
06-19-2012, 03:47 PM
Gt 500 1:45:21 vs zl1 1:44:53 wow....

TriShield
06-19-2012, 03:52 PM
I'm guessing that your friend needs a driver mod, or was sand bagging it. I don't see any other way the G8 could hang with a Boss on a twisty road.

He's an instructor for NASA out here and an exceptional driver. This was with a group of eight hot cars or so going to Prescott. It's a fun road to drive aggressively on and the point isn't automotive dick waving, it's just for fun. There is no doubt his car is substantially faster from a stop and roll but him not completely losing me in the twisty stuff says a lot about the G8.

88blackgt
06-19-2012, 04:07 PM
Gt 500 1:45:21 vs zl1 1:44:53 wow....

Haha .7 on a course over 2 miles long! The way people are talking I expected seconds not tenths.

1/4 mile - GT500 by .5
2.14 mile - ZL1 by .7

I don't think that's anything for the ZL1 to boast about. You would think those numbers would make the GT500 the better all around car people keep using as an excuse, especially given a higher top speed and better fuel mileage...

HioSSilver
06-19-2012, 04:34 PM
Haha .7 on a course over 2 miles long! The way people are talking I expected seconds not tenths.

1/4 mile - GT500 by .5
2.14 mile - ZL1 by .7

I don't think that's anything for the ZL1 to boast about. You would think those numbers would make the GT500 the better all around car people keep using as an excuse, especially given a higher top speed and better fuel mileage...

That's a pretty good margin for a car down 80hp and weighs 300lb more. If you actually read the article the author said he kept missing 3rd gear and would've probably picked up .5 getting through the gears cleanly.

gocartone
06-19-2012, 04:41 PM
Haha .7 on a course over 2 miles long! The way people are talking I expected seconds not tenths.

1/4 mile - GT500 by .5
2.14 mile - ZL1 by .7

I don't think that's anything for the ZL1 to boast about. You would think those numbers would make the GT500 the better all around car people keep using as an excuse, especially given a higher top speed and better fuel mileage...

From the article-

"I wanted the ZL1 to win"

I'm waiting for more reviews before I believe the ZL1 was actually the faster car around the track that day. Besides that, the 0.7 gap on a two mile track is almost nothing. It certainly isn't enough for the ZL1 to be considered the better overall car as that's close enough to call a tie in my book, while there is no question the GT500 spanks the ZL1 in a straight line.

evolve
06-19-2012, 04:50 PM
yes,GM should be embarrassed.

they made an all purpose pony car.

lmao.

evolve
06-19-2012, 04:51 PM
From the article-

"I wanted the ZL1 to win"

I'm waiting for more reviews before I believe the ZL1 was actually the faster car around the track that day. Besides that, the 0.7 gap on a two mile track is almost nothing. It certainly isn't enough for the ZL1 to be considered the better overall car as that's close enough to call a tie in my book, while there is no question the GT500 spanks the ZL1 in a straight line.

I just read that. WTF. The entire article just went south for me. Why wasnt this omitted? It would appear there was bias in this one.

Theblacknightls1
06-19-2012, 04:58 PM
From the article-

"I wanted the ZL1 to win"

I'm waiting for more reviews before I believe the ZL1 was actually the faster car around the track that day. Besides that, the 0.7 gap on a two mile track is almost nothing. It certainly isn't enough for the ZL1 to be considered the better overall car as that's close enough to call a tie in my book, while there is no question the GT500 spanks the ZL1 in a straight line.

It's pretty damn close and yeah I'm sure it's going to be harder to control a lighter car with more power around the curves but it handles good enough at the track and will be great for the streets. In the real world I don't see the zl1 leaving the gt500 behind on the streets or the local drag strip but racing up and down the mountains maybe.

gocartone
06-19-2012, 06:12 PM
I just read that. WTF. The entire article just went south for me. Why wasnt this omitted? It would appear there was bias in this one.

I know, I could easily see someone pushing a car they like more than the one they hate as that really seems how it was in this article. I don't understand how what was basically a tie was "no contest" and how the ZL1's "handling capabilities far exceed the straight-line advantage owned by the Shelby" when the cars are neck and neck around a track with the GT500 having a huge advantage on the anything that's straight.

evolve
06-19-2012, 06:14 PM
I know, I could easily see someone pushing a car they like more than the one they hate as that really seems how it was in this article. I don't understand how what was basically a tie was "no contest" and how the ZL1's "handling capabilities far exceed the straight-line advantage owned by the Shelby" when the cars are neck and neck around a track with the GT500 having a huge advantage on the anything that's straight.

This. Seconds= big victory. Less than a second??? The driver could have lifted in order to fart and lost that .7/10 of a second lol. I do like the MRC, but the weight of that car kills it for me.

firebird99
06-19-2012, 06:39 PM
Huh....the ZL1 wins again and some of you pick it apart with your what if's or it didn't win by enough how sad. The article clearly said the GT500 was a rolling pig yet you still say the .70 could have been a driver error ok then I guess he could made the same mistake on the ZL1 on top off the fact he kept missing a gear but because he was hoping the underdog would win it makes him biased yet again sad. It's simple the GT500 is a better quarter mile car and the ZL1 is the better track day/auto cross car yet both do well in the both categories but each one has it's strong points.

evolve
06-19-2012, 06:42 PM
Huh....the ZL1 wins again and some of you pick it apart with your what if's or it didn't win by enough how sad. The article clearly said the GT500 was a rolling pig yet you still say the .70 could have been a driver error ok then I guess he could made the same mistake on the ZL1 on top off the fact he kept missing a gear but because he was hoping the underdog would win it makes him biased yet again sad. It's simple the GT500 is a better quarter mile car and the ZL1 is the better track day/auto cross car yet both do well in the both categories but each one has it's strong points.

I dont disagree at all. The ZL1 was built for the track, wasnt it? The GT500 is a strip car that can be tracked. Both cars are built to do different things. This win was expected, but I will ask this: why on earth would the article publish the drivers preference during the test?

1ltcap
06-19-2012, 06:59 PM
I know, I could easily see someone pushing a car they like more than the one they hate as that really seems how it was in this article. I don't understand how what was basically a tie was "no contest" and how the ZL1's "handling capabilities far exceed the straight-line advantage owned by the Shelby" when the cars are neck and neck around a track with the GT500 having a huge advantage on the anything that's straight.

i wonder if that's why they showed the shelby kicking the tail out........

1ltcap
06-19-2012, 07:00 PM
Huh....the ZL1 wins again and some of you pick it apart with your what if's or it didn't win by enough how sad. The article clearly said the GT500 was a rolling pig yet you still say the .70 could have been a driver error ok then I guess he could made the same mistake on the ZL1 on top off the fact he kept missing a gear but because he was hoping the underdog would win it makes him biased yet again sad. It's simple the GT500 is a better quarter mile car and the ZL1 is the better track day/auto cross car yet both do well in the both categories but each one has it's strong points.

my gt's not a rolling pig. i highly doubt the shelby is.

ULTIMATEORANGESS
06-19-2012, 07:05 PM
lmao.

i agree it is funny.


a zl1 is no slouch and gets credit for what it does better and it still gets picked apart unnecessarily.

firebird99
06-19-2012, 07:29 PM
I dont disagree at all. The ZL1 was built for the track, wasnt it? The GT500 is a strip car that can be tracked. Both cars are built to do different things. This win was expected, but I will ask this: why on earth would the article publish the drivers preference during the test?

Yeah some would view it as biased but I think it's more of a David vs. Goliath and peolpe like to see the under dog win but for people that truly think it'll make them drive the car harder just so it could win is sad.

gocartone
06-19-2012, 07:31 PM
Huh....the ZL1 wins again and some of you pick it apart with your what if's or it didn't win by enough how sad. The article clearly said the GT500 was a rolling pig yet you still say the .70 could have been a driver error ok then I guess he could made the same mistake on the ZL1 on top off the fact he kept missing a gear but because he was hoping the underdog would win it makes him biased yet again sad. It's simple the GT500 is a better quarter mile car and the ZL1 is the better track day/auto cross car yet both do well in the both categories but each one has it's strong points.

Would you say the ZR1 or the Z06 is the better handling car?

firebird99
06-19-2012, 08:31 PM
Would you say the ZR1 or the Z06 is the better handling car?

What is you point? Instead of beating around the bush just come out and say it!!!!

proxemics
06-20-2012, 12:33 AM
suddenly it's all about corner craving and auto crosing huh!

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-20-2012, 12:45 AM
suddenly it's all about corner craving and auto crosing huh!

"The Trans-Am Series is an automobile racing series which was created in 1966 by Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) President John Bishop. Originally known as the Trans-American Sedan Championship it has evolved over time from its original format as a manufacturers championship for modified racing sedans to its current form as a drivers championship open to GT style cars."

"The series was formed at the dawn of the pony car era and was derived from the SCCA's A & B Sedan amateur Club Racing classes,[1] based upon commercially produced cars which had been modified for racing competition. The series was best known for competition among American V8 sedans such as the Ford Mustang, Chevrolet Camaro, Plymouth Barracuda, Mercury Cougar, AMC Javelin, Pontiac Firebird, and Dodge Challenger in the 1960s and early 1970s."

I dont think it was always about straight line performance hence "GT500"Carol Shelby was a road racer and started out road racing GT350s which later gave birth to the GT500. Road racing is how Carrol Shelby made his name. The "Trans Am" series helped give birth to the SBC 302 and Ford 302. The engine was designed specifically to race in the Trans Am series (which required engines smaller than 305 cu in (5.0 L) and public availability of the car. So the "pony car wars" took place out on the ROAD COURSE. Initially there was no Camaro to drag race against the Mustang because Mustangs started drag racing in 1965 factory stock eliminator class. The Camaro did not debut until 1967. So to say its always been about the 1/4 mile is a lie.

whytryz28
06-20-2012, 01:20 AM
I can see the Zl1 beating the Snake since its only faster in a straight line and that isn't enough to win in a category of multiple tests.

D3VIL
06-20-2012, 01:31 AM
People on this forum need to start giving the ZL1 more credit, it has an uphill battle trying to win over fans for some reason, it's a fantastic car.

GM has stepped out of the pony-car and has become a true sports car, and that's saying something for a car that's close to 4200lbs!

What's not impressive about a car beating a 300lb lighter, has more 80hps more, and cost $8k more? And also the driver kept miss-shifting... and was still .7 seconds faster!

The problem is that this is America, and the culture is 0-60s and 1/4 miles and the you people that call yourself "enthusiast" keep saying "when am I ever gonna take it to the track?" Ummm NO! Change your mentality people, and ask Ford why my 300lb lighter car and 80 more hp car didn't whop the Camaros ass!

Americans REALLY need to upgrade their expectations from their favorite car companies than just an awesome engine so they get a true Sports Car, not a Straight Line Car!

And you wonder why the driver was bias? A. b/c his from europe(mentioned on bottom of the article) so he knows a thing or two about twisties and it's in their culture to like driving something more than just in the straight line and B. his a professional race car driver... why would he not be bias of a car that is giving him better feed backs? He was rooting for the Camaro b/c it's the underdog and it's always more of an exciting story when the little brother beats the older brother.

I dislike Lebron James as a person, but I give the man respect for his amazing bball talents. Dislike GM all you want but respect them for the fantastic sports car they've given us :cheers:

D3VIL
06-20-2012, 01:39 AM
i agree it is funny.


a zl1 is no slouch and gets credit for what it does better and it still gets picked apart unnecessarily.

Yea it's really unfortunate, that this forum looks so down upon these fantastic cars.

The best the GT500 has done(as far as I've read) in stock form with stock tires is 11.6 and the best I've read from the ZL1 is 11.9. That's really not bad for the Camaro!

I think this is what was going on on the svt forums all through out the 90's and the 2000's when GM was winning. NO it's your fault! No It's your fault lol Everybody always wants something to blame and .3 seconds slower BUT a much better corner performance is a give and take.... But it's also $8k more... wouldn't it be fair to say what can you accomplish for those extra $8k?

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-20-2012, 02:05 AM
Yea it's really unfortunate, that this forum looks so down upon these fantastic cars.

The best the GT500 has done(as far as I've read) in stock form with stock tires is 11.6 and the best I've read from the ZL1 is 11.9. That's really not bad for the Camaro!

I think this is what was going on on the svt forums all through out the 90's and the 2000's when GM was winning. NO it's your fault! No It's your fault lol Everybody always wants something to blame and .3 seconds slower BUT a much better corner performance is a give and take.... But it's also $8k more... wouldn't it be fair to say what can you accomplish for those extra $8k?

Haters dont care that the underdog ZL1 is only 3 tenths slower(1/4 mile) and 8,000$ cheaper, because then they say "well the trap speed blows too", or that a handicapped car with 80 less hp and 4200lbs overweight can still out handle the lighter more powerful Mustang. Haters are going to hate either way. They always find an excuse to pick at. Honestly im not a huge fan of the ZL1 for personal reasons. But i do get tired of people bashing a car that is obviously selling to customers. I admire cars for the engineering ingenuity and effort put into them than something like brand loyalty. Guess im just a sucker for defending an underdog. I actually really like the 2013 GT500, excellent execution on Fords behalf.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-20-2012, 03:15 AM
Haha .7 on a course over 2 miles long! The way people are talking I expected seconds not tenths.

1/4 mile - GT500 by .5
2.14 mile - ZL1 by .7

I don't think that's anything for the ZL1 to boast about. You would think those numbers would make the GT500 the better all around car people keep using as an excuse, especially given a higher top speed and better fuel mileage...

Actually the GT500 only beats the ZL1 by 3 tenths in the 1/4 not 5(2 verifiable sources). So the GT500 with 100whp more and 300+lbs lighter and an additional 8,000$ "Track pack" failed to out handle the ZL1 by 7 tenths and only beats it in the 1/4 mile by 3 tenths. Like i said before the disparity between the 2 cars is clouded by brand loyalty and fanboyism.

firebird99
06-20-2012, 04:27 AM
Actually the GT500 only beats the ZL1 by 3 tenths in the 1/4 not 5(2 verifiable sources). So the GT500 with 100whp more and 300+lbs lighter and an additional 8,000$ "Track pack" failed to out handle the ZL1 by 7 tenths and only beats it in the 1/4 mile by 3 tenths. Like i said before the disparity between the 2 cars is clouded by brand loyalty and fanboyism.

$8,000 can cloud alot of peoples judgement and I'm sure some people that buy these cars "just because there cool" with no brand loyalty could be swayed by a 8,000 since that will offset alot of things.

Heater
06-20-2012, 07:14 AM
If the roles were reversed and the ZL1 was the faster 1/4 mile car and the GT500 was faster on a road course, I don't think too many on here would give two shits about what a car did on a road course. All the bragging would be how much faster the ZL1 is in the 1/4 and how it could 200 mph while avoiding the gas guzzler tax.

MeentSS02
06-20-2012, 07:52 AM
If the roles were reversed and the ZL1 was the faster 1/4 mile car and the GT500 was faster on a road course, I don't think too many on here would give two shits about what a car did on a road course. All the bragging would be how much faster the ZL1 is in the 1/4 and how it could 200 mph while avoiding the gas guzzler tax.

This is where you are wrong...there are no LS1Tech members that go around citing heavily biased internet automotive magazine articles that just so happen to play to their preferred brand loyalties, and proceed to call it the official comparison in their signature line. That just doesn't happen on here.

evolve
06-20-2012, 07:57 AM
this is where you are wrong...there are no ls1tech members that go around citing heavily biased internet automotive magazine articles that just so happen to play to their preferred brand loyalties, and proceed to call it the official comparison in their signature line. That just doesn't happen on here.

lmao. ZL1 for cornering (we all know how many of us take those high speed corners...) and GT500 in strait line. I did notice the 11mph difference between the two :)

zz4camaro1980
06-20-2012, 07:58 AM
Dont know if anyone posted it yet...
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1206_2012_chevy_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_ford_shelby_gt5 00/

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 08:03 AM
Actually the GT500 only beats the ZL1 by 3 tenths in the 1/4 not 5(2 verifiable sources). So the GT500 with 100whp more and 300+lbs lighter and an additional 8,000$ "Track pack" failed to out handle the ZL1 by 7 tenths and only beats it in the 1/4 mile by 3 tenths. Like i said before the disparity between the 2 cars is clouded by brand loyalty and fanboyism.

remember that test driver was VERY biased, according to his own words.

88blackgt
06-20-2012, 08:07 AM
Actually the GT500 only beats the ZL1 by 3 tenths in the 1/4 not 5(2 verifiable sources). So the GT500 with 100whp more and 300+lbs lighter and an additional 8,000$ "Track pack" failed to out handle the ZL1 by 7 tenths and only beats it in the 1/4 mile by 3 tenths. Like i said before the disparity between the 2 cars is clouded by brand loyalty and fanboyism.

The same day results are .5. That 11.9 was with drag radials. Get a grip.

So much butthurt and crying, you guys sound like Al

evolve
06-20-2012, 08:21 AM
Yea it's really unfortunate, that this forum looks so down upon these fantastic cars.

The best the GT500 has done(as far as I've read) in stock form with stock tires is 11.6 and the best I've read from the ZL1 is 11.9 with DRs. That's really not bad for the Camaro!

I think this is what was going on on the svt forums all through out the 90's and the 2000's when GM was winning. NO it's your fault! No It's your fault lol Everybody always wants something to blame and .3 seconds slower BUT a much better corner performance is a give and take.... But it's also $8k more... wouldn't it be fair to say what can you accomplish for those extra $8k?

Fixed.

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 08:22 AM
picture this. you win a road race by .276 of a second. may as well call that .3 of a second. seems like a lot, doesn't it?

it's not. the second place car was nearly on the winners bumper at that .3 interval. so now, if you double that, pluse a little, you're gonna be maybe a half a car length, one at most. basically in striking distance.

so.......7 isn't anything to be bragging about on a track that size.

ss1129
06-20-2012, 08:25 AM
Haha .7 on a course over 2 miles long! The way people are talking I expected seconds not tenths.

1/4 mile - GT500 by .5
2.14 mile - ZL1 by .7

I don't think that's anything for the ZL1 to boast about. You would think those numbers would make the GT500 the better all around car people keep using as an excuse, especially given a higher top speed and better fuel mileage...

Show me one race thats only 2 miles long. Say on a 25 lap race the gt500 drops to 17 seconds behind, which incase you dont watch racing, is significant. Still waiting on the Nurburgring times as well. Everyone knows Ford had the car there.

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 08:30 AM
Show me one race thats only 2 miles long. Say on a 25 lap race the gt500 drops to 17 seconds behind, which incase you dont watch racing, is significant. Still waiting on the Nurburgring times as well. Everyone knows Ford had the car there.

there's quite a few 2 to 2.5 mile tracks out there.

it never works out like you're thinking though. i watch enough of them to see that.

MeentSS02
06-20-2012, 08:33 AM
The same day results are .5. That 11.9 was with drag radials. Get a grip.

So much butthurt and crying, you guys sound like Al

Well, since we are talking about this article from Automobile Mag, why don't we look at their results?

The ZL1 did its best pass in 12.38 seconds at 114.5 mph, while the GT500 turned the quarter-mile in 11.78 seconds at 125 mph. So there you have it, Ford beats Chevy. But like we said, drag racing is about more than time slips.

.6 seconds and 10.5 mph. But like they said, drag racing is about more than time slips. I'm not sure what else it is about, but since they printed it in their article, it must be true. Maybe it's about how cool you look while doing it?

ss1129
06-20-2012, 08:38 AM
there's quite a few 2 to 2.5 mile tracks out there.

it never works out like you're thinking though. i watch enough of them to see that.

Im not saying there isnt, Im saying what race is only 1 lap long? I havent seen any.

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 08:42 AM
Im not saying there isnt, Im saying what race is only 1 lap long? I havent seen any.

NO.... a lot of them are done by a set time. the number of laps is determined by avg speed, and cautions.
but there's almost never a car that just constantly opens up a lead.

ss1129
06-20-2012, 08:53 AM
NO.... a lot of them are done by a set time. the number of laps is determined by avg speed, and cautions.
but there's almost never a car that just constantly opens up a lead.

When you are racing purposly built race cars yeah they all hang. Im saying if THESE two cars raced head to head on that partictular track, the lead would grow and grow. He said .7 isnt a big deal. All Im saying is that .7 multiplies itself every lap.

88blackgt
06-20-2012, 08:59 AM
Well, since we are talking about this article from Automobile Mag, why don't we look at their results?



.6 seconds and 10.5 mph. But like they said, drag racing is about more than time slips. I'm not sure what else it is about, but since they printed it in their article, it must be true. Maybe it's about how cool you look while doing it?

Stop that, you're making too much sense

Show me one race thats only 2 miles long. Say on a 25 lap race the gt500 drops to 17 seconds behind, which incase you dont watch racing, is significant. Still waiting on the Nurburgring times as well. Everyone knows Ford had the car there.

You probably won't ever see the Ring times; it doesn't make sense for Ford to publicize them. This is all beyond the fact that comparing Ring times is nothing more than a marketing tool and means nothing for car comparison. Sorry you bought into the hype

Don't take my word for it though, here is a great explanation. Every time someone brings up "Ring times" it proves how clueless they are

http://www.speedsportlife.com/2008/10/01/avoidable-contact-17-cheating-nissan-bitter-porsche/

thunderstruck507
06-20-2012, 09:30 AM
I think tech is the only car forum I am on where everyone acts like they never like to drive on curvy backroads. Is there seriously no one else on here who enjoys hard cornering in their car as much if not more than straight line punches? It has to be the 2 ton 40 year old boat from the 70s?

BTW I'm sure the GT500 is just as fun at that too but that's not the point so much as people on here acting like their fbody/mustangs have never taken a turn under throttle.

There sure are a lot of roads out there to play on that aren't straight...

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 11:17 AM
When you are racing purposly built race cars yeah they all hang. Im saying if THESE two cars raced head to head on that partictular track, the lead would grow and grow. He said .7 isnt a big deal. All Im saying is that .7 multiplies itself every lap.

I'M using purpose built cars as an example. these are really purpose built cars. what i'm getting at, is that in the reality of running the course, they will not manage to continue opening that .7 gap every lap.

MeentSS02
06-20-2012, 11:30 AM
I think tech is the only car forum I am on where everyone acts like they never like to drive on curvy backroads. Is there seriously no one else on here who enjoys hard cornering in their car as much if not more than straight line punches? It has to be the 2 ton 40 year old boat from the 70s?

BTW I'm sure the GT500 is just as fun at that too but that's not the point so much as people on here acting like their fbody/mustangs have never taken a turn under throttle.

There sure are a lot of roads out there to play on that aren't straight...

There are some out there that like to do just that, but they are few and far between on this site. Let's look at some numbers (threads and posts per section) from this site:

Drag Racing Tech: threads = 23,401 | posts = 287,735
Drag Racing Results: threads = 6,335 | posts = 86,107
Road Racing: threads = 1,816 | posts = 16,030

So here's my question: since when has the general population on LS1Tech given two craps about going around corners? Even the Suspension & Brakes section is heavily dominated by people wanting to go fast down the drag strip. Kinda frustrating when you like going fast around turns, which is something I do value.

So when the 2013 GT500 specs came out, it was natural for the vast majority of the posts on here to put the ZL1 in a negative light...what else would you expect from a forum that values drag racing? What gets me is when one (or two) internet magazine articles come out that are dripping with bias towards the ZL1, as seen here:

I wanted the ZL1 to win, because from an on-track handling perspective the car is simply leagues ahead of the clumsy GT500. Going into this, I never expected the difference to be so dramatic and yet I had no problem picking a favorite having driven both. I could barely stand still, hopping from leg to leg like a man in desperate need of relieving himself, waiting to receive the results.

...and here:


Sorry, Ford, but your precious 200 mph boast couldn't matter less when the GT500 has only 1320 feet to make a statement.

...and then you see people on here pick this article up and wave it in the air to say "I told you so...the ZL1 is better. Look! It says so right here!" So, going back to my original question, since when has anyone around here really cared about going fast around corners?

I would say that it wasn't until the 2013 GT500 hit the streets, and proved that it could go faster in a straight line than the ZL1, and by a good margin. That's when you started seeing people on here cling to the only hope they had, which was something hardly anyone cared about until it was all they had left.

88blackgt
06-20-2012, 11:45 AM
Spot. On.

HioSSilver
06-20-2012, 11:51 AM
I think tech is the only car forum I am on where everyone acts like they never like to drive on curvy backroads. Is there seriously no one else on here who enjoys hard cornering in their car as much if not more than straight line punches? It has to be the 2 ton 40 year old boat from the 70s?

BTW I'm sure the GT500 is just as fun at that too but that's not the point so much as people on here acting like their fbody/mustangs have never taken a turn under throttle.

There sure are a lot of roads out there to play on that aren't straight...

My car is set-up for curvy roads. It's far harder to get a car to go threw turns then it is to make more power and go straight for a 1/4 mile. The zl1 is a beast, with a intake/tune it's gonna run with the gt500. Once serious mods start it will bitch slap the gt500 into the next county.

88blackgt
06-20-2012, 12:01 PM
Once serious mods start it will bitch slap the gt500 into the next county.

Now you're being too obvious with your trolling

HioSSilver
06-20-2012, 12:14 PM
Not at all. Think about it.... serious mods would be bigger bottom end (which the ford can't do), more boost of which the ford is already close to the top of that on pump gas.

Think of someone wanting a 427ci supercharged(1000hp+/- or so on pump) ZL1 bitch slapping that gt500. The chassis is already better on the zl1.

88blackgt
06-20-2012, 12:19 PM
Not at all. Think about it.... serious mods would be bigger bottom end (which the ford can't do), more boost of which the ford is already close to the top of that on pump gas.

Think of someone wanting a 427ci supercharged(1000hp+/- or so on pump) ZL1 bitch slapping that gt500. The chassis is already better on the zl1.

So the heavier car with IRS will need to rebuild the bottom end and get new heads to compete with what the modular has been doing for almost a decade on stock engines. Got it, the ZL1 will respond to mods better.

Only in HIO land

thunderstruck507
06-20-2012, 01:39 PM
There are some out there that like to do just that, but they are few and far between on this site. Let's look at some numbers (threads and posts per section) from this site:




I guess that's true and all your points are valid about the defense of the ZL1. I was just shocked at so many people acting like it's a sin to think pony cars should turn.

Mental thing I guess...out of all my friends with fbodies only 1 has a drag setup. The rest are set up to handle well and often see autox duty and fast paced back roading in addition to occasional trips to the strip.

I've always thought it was hilarious to beat the ricers at a few drag races and let them throw out the "you're car can't turn" lines and prove them wrong.

This Saturday a bunch of us are renting a private "drive way" :angel: that happens to be ~1.4 miles around a small hill with some hairpins and a long straight. It's located in the middle of 300 acres of gated private property. Plenty of pictures and video to follow in the multimedia section.

MeentSS02
06-20-2012, 01:55 PM
Mental thing I guess...out of all my friends with fbodies only 1 has a drag setup. The rest are set up to handle well and often see autox duty and fast paced back roading in addition to occasional trips to the strip.

Man...that was the complete opposite of when I lived in FL. Almost every modded f-body that I ran into was set up for drag racing, with mine being one of the few (if not the only one) that was set up to have fun around corners. It was really a result of what was around there...there was easy access to an 1/8th mile track, and the nearest 1/4 mile was a 2.5-3 hour drive north. Road racing? Yeah...not happening. Didn't really see any in the auto-x scene either.

nanokpsi
06-20-2012, 02:00 PM
Road course results are going to be track and drvier dependant. You will see the GT500 come out on top of some tracks and the ZL1 on others. However, you will not see the ZL1 winning at any quarter mile track, nor any other tests of acceleration that will surely pop up on the net soon enough.

CaptainDirtymax
06-20-2012, 02:30 PM
so did anybody actually look at the track map that they posted in the OP's link???

it shows the difference in where the cars were on track through timing loops.

http://image.automobilemag.com/f/37863983+w750+st0/2012-Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL1-vs-2013-Ford-Shelby-GT500-track-map.jpg

by turn 10 the ZL1 had 1.7 seconds on the GT500, it's the last two straights where the GT500 comes back.

SSCamaro99_3
06-20-2012, 02:39 PM
picture this. you win a road race by .276 of a second. may as well call that .3 of a second. seems like a lot, doesn't it?

it's not. the second place car was nearly on the winners bumper at that .3 interval. so now, if you double that, pluse a little, you're gonna be maybe a half a car length, one at most. basically in striking distance.

so.......7 isn't anything to be bragging about on a track that size.

Not entirely true. Lets use a 1:45 lap to split the difference nd make the math easy.

(3600/105)*2 = 68.57 mph average

(5280*68.57)/3600 = 100.57 ft/sec

.3*100.57 = 30.17 ft (1.89 ish car lengths)
.7*100.57 = 70.399 ft (4.399ish car lengths)

Drag racing
(3600/11.5)*.25 = 78.26 mph avg
(3600/12.1)*.25 = 74.38 mph avg

(5280*78.26)/3600 = 114.78
(5280*74.38)/3600 = 109.09

If we take the GT-500's 11.5 time multipluied by the ZL1's avg speed we get

11.5*109.09 = 1263.85

1320*1263.85 = 56.15 feet (3.5ish cars)

I would consider both significant margins.

thunderstruck507
06-20-2012, 02:42 PM
Man...that was the complete opposite of when I lived in FL. Almost every modded f-body that I ran into was set up for drag racing, with mine being one of the few (if not the only one) that was set up to have fun around corners. It was really a result of what was around there...there was easy access to an 1/8th mile track, and the nearest 1/4 mile was a 2.5-3 hour drive north. Road racing? Yeah...not happening. Didn't really see any in the auto-x scene either.

No one I know can afford to really road race but there is a track in Tulsa. You are looking at a couple hundred bucks or more a day to do that.

But we are blessed with the Ozark mountains which have some amazing pavement through the mountains and woods. A few minutes outside of town in any direction will get you on some nice pavement with plenty of twisties and little traffic.

The autox scene is marginal but it exists. For drag there are 1/4 miles in Tulsa and Joplin, MO and 1/8th in Sallisaw, OK and a 1000ft track in Centerville, AR (all of which are between 1.5 hours-2.5 hours from here)

88blackgt
06-20-2012, 02:45 PM
by turn 10 the ZL1 had 1.7 seconds on the GT500, it's the last two straights where the GT500 comes back.

It didn't pull ahead until turn 6 and lost the lead after turn 10. You act like it lead the whole track then lost in the straight away. ZL1 gained on 6 through 10 and the GT500 took it back on the straight with the rest being tied...

Z Fury
06-20-2012, 02:46 PM
so did anybody actually look at the track map that they posted in the OP's link???

it shows the difference in where the cars were on track through timing loops.

by turn 10 the ZL1 had 1.7 seconds on the GT500, it's the last two straights where the GT500 comes back.

You can also see in the comments that the pro driver botched a 2-3 shift in the ZL1 coming out of turn 10. I can guarantee he is a better driver than I am, but it sounds like more seat time in both cars would have netted better times. Maybe it could have been worse for the GT500...? Who knows.

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 02:47 PM
Man...that was the complete opposite of when I lived in FL. Almost every modded f-body that I ran into was set up for drag racing, with mine being one of the few (if not the only one) that was set up to have fun around corners. It was really a result of what was around there...there was easy access to an 1/8th mile track, and the nearest 1/4 mile was a 2.5-3 hour drive north. Road racing? Yeah...not happening. Didn't really see any in the auto-x scene either.

i gotta admit, back when i bought my 83 5 liter, my main concern was drag racing. it also seemed as if that's how most of the camaro/firebirds around here were set up.
when i bought my 89, i kept the suspension in that one good for twisties too. i bought that one in 92. at that point, most of the camaro/firebirds in this area still seemed to be set up for straight line performance.

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 02:51 PM
so did anybody actually look at the track map that they posted in the OP's link???

it shows the difference in where the cars were on track through timing loops.

http://image.automobilemag.com/f/37863983+w750+st0/2012-Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL1-vs-2013-Ford-Shelby-GT500-track-map.jpg

by turn 10 the ZL1 had 1.7 seconds on the GT500, it's the last two straights where the GT500 comes back.
this is what i keep trying to say. they will not be able to regularly open a lead.

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 02:52 PM
Not entirely true. Lets use a 1:45 lap to split the difference nd make the math easy.

(3600/105)*2 = 68.57 mph average

(5280*68.57)/3600 = 100.57 ft/sec

.3*100.57 = 30.17 ft (1.89 ish car lengths)
.7*100.57 = 70.399 ft (4.399ish car lengths)

Drag racing
(3600/11.5)*.25 = 78.26 mph avg
(3600/12.1)*.25 = 74.38 mph avg

(5280*78.26)/3600 = 114.78
(5280*74.38)/3600 = 109.09

If we take the GT-500's 11.5 time multipluied by the ZL1's avg speed we get

11.5*109.09 = 1263.85

1320*1263.85 = 56.15 feet (3.5ish cars)

I would consider both significant margins.

so you're telling me that i didn't see that camaro right on the mustangs bumper?

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 02:53 PM
You can also see in the comments that the pro driver botched a 2-3 shift in the ZL1 coming out of turn 10. I can guarantee he is a better driver than I am, but it sounds like more seat time in both cars would have netted better times. Maybe it could have been worse for the GT500...? Who knows.

or better.

SSCamaro99_3
06-20-2012, 02:55 PM
I think tech is the only car forum I am on where everyone acts like they never like to drive on curvy backroads. Is there seriously no one else on here who enjoys hard cornering in their car as much if not more than straight line punches? It has to be the 2 ton 40 year old boat from the 70s?

BTW I'm sure the GT500 is just as fun at that too but that's not the point so much as people on here acting like their fbody/mustangs have never taken a turn under throttle.

There sure are a lot of roads out there to play on that aren't straight...

At least there is someone else out there. I felt very alone. I use the ability of the car to corner more than I do the upper limits of the power it makes. You can take backroads and onramps hard without drawing nearly as much civil servant attention as letting it run.

88blackgt
06-20-2012, 02:57 PM
or better.

You post every 15 seconds but still don't know how to multi-quote

SSCamaro99_3
06-20-2012, 02:59 PM
so you're telling me that i didn't see that camaro right on the mustangs bumper?

I am sure he was at some point. I was just laying out the mathematical representation of what 3 tenths and 7 tenths really are. I was just disputing that .3 tenths is right on his bumper, which it isn't. .3 tenths equals 30+ feet on average. These cars are 16 feet long, which would put 14 feet between rear bumper of the lead car, and front bumper of the following car.

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 03:13 PM
You post every 15 seconds but still don't know how to multi-quote

yea......someday i will. i'm postring from work, as i'm getting estimates ready, keeping my tech busy, and calling customers, so it's actually easier and faster to do it this way for now.

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 03:15 PM
I am sure he was at some point. I was just laying out the mathematical representation of what 3 tenths and 7 tenths really are. I was just disputing that .3 tenths is right on his bumper, which it isn't. .3 tenths equals 30+ feet on average. These cars are 16 feet long, which would put 14 feet between rear bumper of the lead car, and front bumper of the following car.

you are correct, he was at some point. that point was crossing the start/finish line, at the end of the race, winning by .3 of a second.

CaptainDirtymax
06-20-2012, 03:37 PM
It didn't pull ahead until turn 6 and lost the lead after turn 10. You act like it lead the whole track then lost in the straight away. ZL1 gained on 6 through 10 and the GT500 took it back on the straight with the rest being tied...

i guess i should have worded that a little bit better. at turn 5 they were basically even yes, then in 5 turns the ZL1 opens up a 1.7 second gap. if the driver hadn't missed that 2-3 shift (1.15 seconds lost), the gap could have possibly been over a second difference total between both cars at the stripe.

You can also see in the comments that the pro driver botched a 2-3 shift in the ZL1 coming out of turn 10. I can guarantee he is a better driver than I am, but it sounds like more seat time in both cars would have netted better times. Maybe it could have been worse for the GT500...? Who knows.

possibly a little over a second difference at the stripe vs the .7 second difference.

that near 5mph difference right before turn 11 shows that the GT500 was playing catch up where it's strongest.

i still think the Boss and the ZL1 are a better match than the GT500 vs ZL1 though.

gocartone
06-20-2012, 04:08 PM
Not at all. Think about it.... serious mods would be bigger bottom end (which the ford can't do), more boost of which the ford is already close to the top of that on pump gas.

Think of someone wanting a 427ci supercharged(1000hp+/- or so on pump) ZL1 bitch slapping that gt500. The chassis is already better on the zl1.

Do you really love GM that much??? The old GT500s can hold up to around 1000whp without touching the motor. Unless you were talking about leaving the GT500 stock, in which case one could spend far less on a fox-body and leave the stock ZL1 in the dust :gtfo: Stock for stock, mod for mod the GT500 has a HUGE advantage at the strip.

SSCamaro99_3
06-20-2012, 04:36 PM
you are correct, he was at some point. that point was crossing the start/finish line, at the end of the race, winning by .3 of a second.

GT-500 = 1:45.21
ZL-1 = 1:44.53

0.68 difference recorded at the line.

All I was stating was that your assumption that 0.3 seconds is nose to tail is not patently correct. At 30 mph, perhaps, at 100 mph, no chance. I just gave an example based on the average lap speed.


The point of my first long post was that the ZL1 loss at the drag strip, and the GT-500 loss at the 2 mile roadcourse are both statistically significant amounts from a purely racing perspective.

I find the map of the road course posted on page 4 interesting as well. They list what looks like the highest corner and straightline speed differentials.

Corner
ZL-1 54/GT-500 49.2 dif = 4.8 mph

Straight GT-500 129.2/ZL-1 124.6 dif = 4.6 mph

That tells you an aweful lot right there.

Truthfully, I like both of them, and would be happy with the keys to either.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-20-2012, 05:07 PM
GT-500 = 1:45.21
ZL-1 = 1:44.53

0.68 difference recorded at the line.

All I was stating was that your assumption that 0.3 seconds is nose to tail is not patently correct. At 30 mph, perhaps, at 100 mph, no chance. I just gave an example based on the average lap speed.


The point of my first long post was that the ZL1 loss at the drag strip, and the GT-500 loss at the 2 mile roadcourse are both statistically significant amounts from a purely racing perspective.

I find the map of the road course posted on page 4 interesting as well. They list what looks like the highest corner and straightline speed differentials.

Corner
ZL-1 54/GT-500 49.2 dif = 4.8 mph

Straight GT-500 129.2/ZL-1 124.6 dif = 4.6 mph

That tells you an aweful lot right there.

Truthfully, I like both of them, and would be happy with the keys to either.

This^

1ltcap
06-20-2012, 05:16 PM
GT-500 = 1:45.21
ZL-1 = 1:44.53

0.68 difference recorded at the line.

All I was stating was that your assumption that 0.3 seconds is nose to tail is not patently correct. At 30 mph, perhaps, at 100 mph, no chance. I just gave an example based on the average lap speed.


The point of my first long post was that the ZL1 loss at the drag strip, and the GT-500 loss at the 2 mile roadcourse are both statistically significant amounts from a purely racing perspective.

I find the map of the road course posted on page 4 interesting as well. They list what looks like the highest corner and straightline speed differentials.

Corner
ZL-1 54/GT-500 49.2 dif = 4.8 mph

Straight GT-500 129.2/ZL-1 124.6 dif = 4.6 mph

That tells you an aweful lot right there.

Truthfully, I like both of them, and would be happy with the keys to either.
ye, i'd like to be able to afford one of em.....but alas, i'm stuck with my lowly gt......i think i can learn to live with that. :)

HioSSilver
06-20-2012, 10:28 PM
Do you really love GM that much??? The old GT500s can hold up to around 1000whp without touching the motor. Unless you were talking about leaving the GT500 stock, in which case one could spend far less on a fox-body and leave the stock ZL1 in the dust :gtfo: Stock for stock, mod for mod the GT500 has a HUGE advantage at the strip.

Their 1000hp was not on pump....and probably did'nt last long.

88blackgt
06-21-2012, 08:50 AM
Their 1000hp was not on pump....and probably did'nt last long.

You're so blinded by the badge is not even funny anymore. Plenty of modulars have made 1k on stock engines there is no way you can make blanket statements like that (and I don't care enough to go back and research them all).

So the forced induction engine without forged internals is going to last longer on pump at 1k?

The GT500 ford fits perfectly in HIO land except that it's a ford. It's lighter, more mph, and it doesn't need aftermarket engine components; you of all people should be pumped

zz4camaro1980
06-21-2012, 09:18 AM
Not at all. Think about it.... serious mods would be bigger bottom end (which the ford can't do), more boost of which the ford is already close to the top of that on pump gas.

Think of someone wanting a 427ci supercharged(1000hp+/- or so on pump) ZL1 bitch slapping that gt500. The chassis is already better on the zl1.

:bang: really?... If I put a jet engine in my car I would bitch slap the GT500 too.

And what you have all been waiting for: the ZL1... wins? haha, definetly a biased comparison.
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_ford_shelby _gt500_on_road/

-Ross-
06-21-2012, 09:38 AM
"Honestly, babe! I know that Mustang just beat the ever living shit out of me from that last stoplight, but I swear I can beat him by a good 3/4's of a second on a closed 2.5 mile road course. Come on...I'll find a Taco Bell so we can turn that frown upside down and get you your favorite Double Decker Taco. Let me check my navigation to see where one is...fuck."

zz4camaro1980
06-21-2012, 10:01 AM
"Honestly, babe! I know that Mustang just beat the ever living shit out of me from that last stoplight, but I swear I can beat him by a good 3/4's of a second on a closed 2.5 mile road coarse. Come on...I'll find a Taco Bell so we can turn that frown upside down and get you your favorite Double Decker Taco. Let me check my navigation to see where one is...fuck."

:jest: LOL, I dont care who you are, thats funny right there.

MeentSS02
06-21-2012, 11:18 AM
"Honestly, babe! I know that Mustang just beat the ever living shit out of me from that last stoplight, but I swear I can beat him by a good 3/4's of a second on a closed 2.5 mile road course. Come on...I'll find a Taco Bell so we can turn that frown upside down and get you your favorite Double Decker Taco. Let me check my navigation to see where one is...fuck."

That's exactly what's been going through my head. I can see someone showing up to the Friday night cruise in around here with their ZL1 spouting off something along those lines, and then getting laughed right out of the parking lot. It's about as bad as Viper owners spouting off Nurburgring times when 99.9% of them will never take their car there, and about 95% of the owners have never seen a road course with one, me included.

-Ross-
06-21-2012, 11:36 AM
I spelled course wrong. lol

GTOSE
06-21-2012, 01:41 PM
I spelled course wrong. lol

And by law of potato.

Your argument is irrelevant.

-Ross-
06-21-2012, 01:44 PM
And by law of potato.

Your argument is irrelevant.

Flock!

camaro98z28
06-21-2012, 03:20 PM
Is there a video of the GT500 doing over 200 mph?

firebird99
06-21-2012, 03:38 PM
Is there a video of the GT500 doing over 200 mph?

No but they were close even though elevation was high and the temperature was even higher. The car will do 200 but it takes such perfect conditions on a purpose built track that I could never understand why people care with any car not just this one.

88blackgt
06-21-2012, 04:15 PM
The car will do 200 but it takes such perfect conditions on a purpose built track that I could never understand why people care with any car not just this one.

Stop passing your bias and bullshit off as fact. The car hit 196 or 198 in something like 5800 DA

You continue to price my original impression every post; you're a butthurt teenager

1ltcap
06-21-2012, 04:17 PM
No but they were close even though elevation was high and the temperature was even higher. The car will do 200 but it takes such perfect conditions on a purpose built track that I could never understand why people care with any car not just this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTFPL3sD00o

and they hit 196 at 2000 ground elevation on a 100 degree day. no need for perfect. just brnig it to a track closer to sea level.

JD_AMG
06-21-2012, 05:03 PM
"Honestly, babe! I know that Mustang just beat the ever living shit out of me from that last stoplight, but I swear I can beat him by a good 3/4's of a second on a closed 2.5 mile road course. Come on...I'll find a Taco Bell so we can turn that frown upside down and get you your favorite Double Decker Taco. Let me check my navigation to see where one is...fuck."
lol, ok nice.

"Yeah I totally smoked that camero from a stop light, AND i have a navigation system in this mustang, best car evar! im going to go pick up my girlfriend from highschool now and do doughnuts in the parking lot! hope I don't run into any Mach1s..."

-Ross-
06-21-2012, 05:31 PM
"Oh yeah, well Mark from accounting just bought a brand new GS Carvette. It would run circles around these cars. Mustangs and Cameros are for trash. Carvettes are for class."

LS1LT1
06-21-2012, 06:45 PM
and they hit 196 at 2000 ground elevation on a 100 degree day. no need for perfect. just brnig it to a track closer to sea level.I think it was tested in both Arizona (higher elevation) and at Nardo in Italy (only 150 feet above sea level I believe?) but of course the heat was still a factor at either facility making the actual DA less favorable overall.
Nardo is only a few miles from the ocean I believe.

LS1LT1
06-21-2012, 07:03 PM
The article clearly said the GT500 was a rolling pig yet you still say the .70 could have been a driver error ok then I guess he could made the same mistake on the ZL1Good point. If the GT500 lost to the ZL1 on the road course due solely to driver error, then maybe the ZL1 only lost on the drag strip due solely to driver error LOL. ;)

I don't actually believe that of course but just puttin' it out there to show how the "it must've been driver error" response/reply often tends to have some holes in it. :D

1ltcap
06-21-2012, 07:33 PM
lol, ok nice.

"Yeah I totally smoked that camero from a stop light, AND i have a navigation system in this mustang, best car evar! im going to go pick up my girlfriend from highschool now and do doughnuts in the parking lot! hope I don't run into any Mach1s..."

some of us would be in a shit ton of trouble if we had highschool age girlfriends.......

1ltcap
06-21-2012, 07:34 PM
I think it was tested in both Arizona (higher elevation) and at Nardo in Italy (only 150 feet above sea level I believe?) but of course the heat was still a factor at either facility making the actual DA less favorable overall.
Nardo is only a few miles from the ocean I believe.

yesa, i think i linked a video.....i think they did 200 there...at nardo that is.

LS1LT1
06-21-2012, 08:10 PM
some of us would be in a shit ton of trouble if we had highschool age girlfriends.......Nah, there's plenty of 18 years old girls still in high school. :naughty: :D ;)

gocartone
06-21-2012, 08:19 PM
some of us would be in a shit ton of trouble if we had highschool age girlfriends.......

You know what the best thing about high school girls is? I get older, they stay the same age :devil:

Sax1031
06-21-2012, 08:23 PM
You know what the best thing about high school girls is? I get older, they stay the same age :devil:

"Let me tell you what Melba Toast is packing right here. I've got four-eleven positrack out back. Seven-fifty double pumper. Edelbrock intake, bored over thirty, eleven to one pop up pistons. Turbo jet, three ninety horse power. We're talking some ****ing muscle."


my absolute favorite line in any movie, and I am a Ford fan.

LS1LT1
06-21-2012, 08:33 PM
:werd: :nod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wf-mRo7C2I

1ltcap
06-21-2012, 08:44 PM
You know what the best thing about high school girls is? I get older, they stay the same age :devil:

lololol

firebird99
06-21-2012, 09:49 PM
Stop passing your bias and bullshit off as fact. The car hit 196 or 198 in something like 5800 DA

You continue to price my original impression every post; you're a butthurt teenager
Yet again you fail. The car HAS to have a purpose built track at or around sea level with optimal temps. That may be not perfect in yours eyes but it does prove that it won't do it anytime you want it to will it? Butthurt teenager? No I'm 28 married with 2 kids so keep attacking people on a personal level because it really shows your level of maturity sir.
Good point. If the GT500 lost to the ZL1 on the road course due solely to driver error, then maybe the ZL1 only lost on the drag strip due solely to driver error LOL. ;)

I don't actually believe that of course but just puttin' it out there to show how the "it must've been driver error" response/reply often tends to have some holes in it. :D
I never meant it as that's why it's slower in the quarter it was referencing the post that said it was crap because the driver could have done better to improve the GT500 time yet acted like the ZL1 run was flawless.
You know what the best thing about high school girls is? I get older, they stay the same age :devil:
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!

88blackgt
06-22-2012, 10:40 AM
Yet again you fail. The car HAS to have a purpose built track at or around sea level with optimal temps. That may be not perfect in yours eyes but it does prove that it won't do it anytime you want it to will it? Butthurt teenager? No I'm 28 married with 2 kids so keep attacking people on a personal level because it really shows your level of maturity sir.


Show me how you know the tolerance of the GT500 hitting 200 or not. You don't, you're just making shit up. And you're surprised you need space to go 200 mph?

Age just is a number, your maturity or lack thereof is showing.

MeentSS02
06-22-2012, 11:08 AM
I think I'm more concerned that he has two kids - he's breeding his own little army of magazine racers. If they keep multiplying, this whole world will be overrun in a few years.

88blackgt
06-22-2012, 12:39 PM
I think I'm more concerned that he has two kids - he's breeding his own little army of magazine racers. If they keep multiplying, this whole world will be overrun in a few years.

Haha thats another funny thing w/ the ZL1; in the past magazines held 0 weight on LS1tech and using magazines for support was laughed at, now they are gospel.

bhop42
06-22-2012, 02:31 PM
I'm a Chevy guy but I give props when they're due; the GT500 is a beast! However, most people aren't looking at the fact that the ZL1 has a very complex magnetic suspension on it. This setup is not cheap in the aftermarket (price the Koni setup). If the guy that bought the GT500 wanted to add a suspension that was equivilent to ZL1 he's going to pay a pretty penny for it. The ZL1 guy is probably going to have to spend a little less money to increase his power to GT500 specs (smaller pulley, exhaust,etc..). If I had the money to buy either one of them I'm modding regardless.

thunderstruck507
06-22-2012, 02:42 PM
The most irritating thing to me is the regard of either car as "complete garbage" and a failure. These are 2 very impressive cars IMO and I would be thrilled to own either. To call the ZL1 trash because it can't beat a car with 80hp more at the strip is retarded seeing as how it is clearly doing plenty of other things very damn well.

firebird99
06-22-2012, 04:37 PM
Show me how you know the tolerance of the GT500 hitting 200 or not. You don't, you're just making shit up. And you're surprised you need space to go 200 mph?

Age just is a number, your maturity or lack thereof is showing.

I think I'm more concerned that he has two kids - he's breeding his own little army of magazine racers. If they keep multiplying, this whole world will be overrun in a few years.


Please show me and others were a 2013 GT500 has hit 200mph to prove me the "magazine racer" wrong. As far as not knowing the tolerance of the car you are correct but the car has already proved it can't do in any weather at any elevation so how is that false information?

Meentss02- talk about me all you want but leave my family out of your mouth because that just proves your level of disrespect and immaturity.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-22-2012, 04:43 PM
I think I'm more concerned that he has two kids - he's breeding his own little army of magazine racers. If they keep multiplying, this whole world will be overrun in a few years.

Insulting someones family on a TECH forum......Good job showing everyone how mature you are. Try showing technical data proving him wrong instead of attacking someones "kids". Must be real easy to pick on children.

1ltcap
06-22-2012, 05:52 PM
Please show me and others were a 2013 GT500 has hit 200mph to prove me the "magazine racer" wrong. As far as not knowing the tolerance of the car you are correct but the car has already proved it can't do in any weather at any elevation so how is that false information?

Meentss02- talk about me all you want but leave my family out of your mouth because that just proves your level of disrespect and immaturity.

I'M pretty sure they hit 200 or more here.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTFPL3sD00o

firebird99
06-22-2012, 06:09 PM
I'M pretty sure they hit 200 or more here.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTFPL3sD00o

I figured they would post that but since so many people claim that Chevys runs in the 11's were bogus and others that argue that manufactures fudge there ring times I want a video from someone other then ford. By doing that it takes away the argument of the car itself being a ringer since one again manufactures have done that before to. Like I said the car will do it but it has to have the proper conditons it's already proved that so I don't get why some people wanna call me about bs information when I'm just commenting on what the car has proved so far.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-22-2012, 06:40 PM
I'M pretty sure they hit 200 or more here.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTFPL3sD00o

Im curious why Ford didnt show the Mustang hit 200mph and the blurred out the speedometer in this vid. I can see why people would second guess the 200mph mark. Though i believe the 2013 GT500 can hit 200mph(it has the hp, and gearing to do so) i wonder if it takes a track like Nardo or the one used in the MT review to obtain 200mph. I wonder if the GT500 can obtain 200mph at events like the Texas/Mojave mile or the Silver State Challenge. Hopefully one of the media outlets will throw this test at it to answer these questions.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-22-2012, 06:46 PM
Haha thats another funny thing w/ the ZL1; in the past magazines held 0 weight on LS1tech and using magazines for support was laughed at, now they are gospel.

I dont know whats happened in the past but im pretty sure there isnt anyone on this forum with the expertise, finances, and credibility to rent or barrow these 2 vehicles to do a comparison. Obviously comparisons by these media outlets have to be taken with a grain of salt good or bad.

camaro98z28
06-22-2012, 07:09 PM
I agree. Nothing but talk.. No data for backing. 199.98 MPH isn't 200 MPHIm curious why Ford didnt show the Mustang hit 200mph and the blurred out the speedometer in this vid. I can see why people would second guess the 200mph mark. Though i believe the 2013 GT500 can hit 200mph(it has the hp, and gearing to do so) i wonder if it takes a track like Nardo or the one used in the MT review to obtain 200mph. I wonder if the GT500 can obtain 200mph at events like the Texas/Mojave mile or the Silver State Challenge. Hopefully one of the media outlets will throw this test at it to answer these questions.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-22-2012, 07:14 PM
I agree. Nothing but talk.. No data for backing. 199.98 MPH isn't 200 MPH

196mph by MT in ideal conditions. Do you have a link for 199? I never said it was all talk. I simply said it was curious they blurred it out. The argument between a few members here isnt whether or not it can hit 200mph but whether it takes perfect conditions to do it or can do it in less then ideal(good or bad DA). Read post #123

firebird99
06-22-2012, 07:28 PM
196mph by MT in ideal conditions. Do you have a link for 199? I never said it was all talk. I simply said it was curious they blurred it out. The argument between a few members here isnt whether or not it can hit 200mph but whether it takes perfect conditions to do it or can do it in less then ideal(good or bad DA).

Correct we never said it couldn't do it just that it has to have "ideal" conditions to do so and so far nobody other then fords claim has been able to do it.

1ltcap
06-22-2012, 08:09 PM
196mph by MT in ideal conditions. Do you have a link for 199? I never said it was all talk. I simply said it was curious they blurred it out. The argument between a few members here isnt whether or not it can hit 200mph but whether it takes perfect conditions to do it or can do it in less then ideal(good or bad DA). Read post #123

are you referencing this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRuE38Bl5Mo

190 in 5130 da is dam impressive. the 196 run was the following morning, but they didn't say the da. we know that the place is 2,000 asl, which is far below "ideal" conditions. id think that if they just were 1,000ft lower, they'd have hit it, and possibly surpassed it. pobst himself says that this car will. not can. will.

as for the blurred section on the nardo ring.......he was fussing with something. more than likely some testing or data logging equipment, which is probably at least part of the reason for the blurring. the rest....i dunno.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-22-2012, 09:45 PM
are you referencing this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRuE38Bl5Mo

190 in 5130 da is dam impressive. the 196 run was the following morning, but they didn't say the da. we know that the place is 2,000 asl, which is far below "ideal" conditions. id think that if they just were 1,000ft lower, they'd have hit it, and possibly surpassed it. pobst himself says that this car will. not can. will.

as for the blurred section on the nardo ring.......he was fussing with something. more than likely some testing or data logging equipment, which is probably at least part of the reason for the blurring. the rest....i dunno.

Yup, no doubt.

firebird99
06-22-2012, 09:49 PM
See that's just it everyone keeps saying that all it needs is to be closer to sea level which further proves my point it can't just show up to a track like that whenever it wants and run 200mph. I'm sorry but 196 is not 200 so as of yet the car hasn't been able to back up fords claim but we know it will when the conditions are "better".

camaro98z28
06-22-2012, 10:39 PM
I was using 199.8 mph as a saying. I hate the in a perfect condition the car will hit 200 mph. The ZR1 did without someone making an excuse that it wasn't perfect condition.

Im just saying that I need data and video. I like the GT500 but people on here are bench racing.196mph by MT in ideal conditions. Do you have a link for 199? I never said it was all talk. I simply said it was curious they blurred it out. The argument between a few members here isnt whether or not it can hit 200mph but whether it takes perfect conditions to do it or can do it in less then ideal(good or bad DA). Read post #123

MeentSS02
06-22-2012, 10:42 PM
Insulting someones family on a TECH forum......Good job showing everyone how mature you are. Try showing technical data proving him wrong instead of attacking someones "kids". Must be real easy to pick on children.

Holy crap...the hurt feelings police are on the scene. Would you like a hug?

gocartone
06-22-2012, 10:44 PM
See that's just it everyone keeps saying that all it needs is to be closer to sea level which further proves my point it can't just show up to a track like that whenever it wants and run 200mph. I'm sorry but 196 is not 200 so as of yet the car hasn't been able to back up fords claim but we know it will when the conditions are "better".

That's how any car is?? If you show up at a track with a DA of 7000 in a car that runs mid-10s at sea level you would be running mid 11s at about 10mph slower than you were at sea level, imagine what that effect does when talking top speed. It doesn't need ideal conditions, it just needs halfway decent conditions. A ZR1/Z06/C6/any other unrestricted car would not run their top speed had they been there that day.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-22-2012, 10:54 PM
Holy crap...the hurt feelings police are on the scene. Would you like a hug?


lol....You must be projecting, its cool if you like men bro. Its all good.

1ltcap
06-22-2012, 10:58 PM
See that's just it everyone keeps saying that all it needs is to be closer to sea level which further proves my point it can't just show up to a track like that whenever it wants and run 200mph. I'm sorry but 196 is not 200 so as of yet the car hasn't been able to back up fords claim but we know it will when the conditions are "better".

better, but not perfect

MeentSS02
06-22-2012, 11:00 PM
lol....You must be projecting, its cool if you like men bro. Its all good.

Wow...you got me. You, sir, are now the king of the internet. A gay joke no less.

Meentss02- talk about me all you want but leave my family out of your mouth because that just proves your level of disrespect and immaturity.

Now let's go back and look at what I actually said - did I actually say anything about your kids? Nope, just that you had them. I inferred that you would raise them to be magazine racers just like yourself, so I was talking about you, and more specifically, your parenting skills.

But why try to understand what I wrote? You clearly didn't even try with this magazine article, so I shouldn't have expected anything less.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-22-2012, 11:03 PM
[QUOTE=MeentSS02;16447322]Wow...you got me. You, sir, are now the king of the internet. A gay joke no less.



Hey u MAD BRO?

MeentSS02
06-22-2012, 11:08 PM
Hey u MAD BRO?

Nope, but you sure were. In case you already forgot:

Insulting someones family on a TECH forum......Good job showing everyone how mature you are. Try showing technical data proving him wrong instead of attacking someones "kids". Must be real easy to pick on children.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-22-2012, 11:12 PM
Nope, but you sure were. In case you already forgot:

haha aww dont be angwee:gay: Thx for proving my point for me BTW :)

firebird99
06-22-2012, 11:47 PM
That's how any car is?? If you show up at a track with a DA of 7000 in a car that runs mid-10s at sea level you would be running mid 11s at about 10mph slower than you were at sea level, imagine what that effect does when talking top speed. It doesn't need ideal conditions, it just needs halfway decent conditions. A ZR1/Z06/C6/any other unrestricted car would not run their top speed had they been there that day.

Yeah I know but that wasn't the argument asked if the car had ran 200 and I said no because it needs "perfect" conditions and people starting to argue the word "perfect" and applied it needed "ideal" conditions.Either way the car will run the number but some people think it can run 200 on any given day and it can't.

LS1LT1
06-23-2012, 02:54 AM
190 in 5130 da is dam impressive. the 196 run was the following morning, but they didn't say the da. we know that the place is 2,000 asl, which is far below "ideal" conditions. id think that if they just were 1,000ft lower, they'd have hit it, and possibly surpassed it. pobst himself says that this car will. not can. will.I agree. But that's why I posted a page or two back about Nardo's elevation being only 150' or so. We don't know the exact temps, barometer or humidity from that test day but I'm thinking that it was a far better overall DA than they what they had in Arizona. Based on that alone it probably should've been even faster (202mph?).
Bottom line is the car is clearly capable of hitting 200mph. :nod:

1ltcap
06-23-2012, 07:53 AM
I agree. But that's why I posted a page or two back about Nardo's elevation being only 150' or so. We don't know the exact temps, barometer or humidity from that test day but I'm thinking that it was a far better overall DA than they what they had in Arizona. Based on that alone it probably should've been even faster (202mph?).
Bottom line is the car is clearly capable of hitting 200mph. :nod:

yea, it is,.....not that any of us on here would ever get that chance. i'd suspect though, that although things were blurred, it was over 200 over there, as so far, no one at ford has lied about anything on this cars capability. unfortunately the same can't be said for the chey in this case. from their chief engineer, it's been nothing but a stream of lies, and un-truths.

88blackgt
06-23-2012, 08:16 AM
That's how any car is?? If you show up at a track with a DA of 7000 in a car that runs mid-10s at sea level you would be running mid 11s at about 10mph slower than you were at sea level, imagine what that effect does when talking top speed. It doesn't need ideal conditions, it just needs halfway decent conditions. A ZR1/Z06/C6/any other unrestricted car would not run their top speed had they been there that day.

Right on

Yeah I know but that wasn't the argument asked if the car had ran 200 and I said no because it needs "perfect" conditions and people starting to argue the word "perfect" and applied it needed "ideal" conditions.Either way the car will run the number but some people think it can run 200 on any given day and it can't.

Don't back pedal so hard you're going to fall and hurt yourself

got-a-ls1
06-23-2012, 08:47 AM
maybe its just me, but neither one of these cars really excites me. i dunno the gt500 is just to over hyped and ive never been a fan on the heavy ass 5th gen. And who cares about stock performance times. Id be pissed to get a blown away by a stock 5.3 truck motor in either one of these cars... and no im not playing the money per mod per hp card. My point is yea the gt500 is faster stock. big fuckin deal, no car enthusiast leaves their car stock lol.. only the dbags that sit there and brag about their stock car like they had something to do with it. the zl1 should have got a ls9 and zr1 power and a DIET.. but GM cant make the camaro step on the toes of their 100k+ super vette, and thats how it will always be. Honestly im embarrassed the camaro only trapped 114. thats pretty slow nowadays.

and the 200mph... yea LOL go have fun with that. Dumbest fucking advertising and thing to brag about ever. Most morons cant even drive at 65, lets let them have a mustang that can go hit 200mph on public roads... because there will be some dumbass with more money then brains go out and try to top it out and wreck. shit like that is whats gonna get new performance cars regulated down to turds like it was in the 70's.

1ltcap
06-23-2012, 09:11 AM
and why do you think the 70's performance cars were regulated down? and are you really trying to say a stock 5.3 will hammer either of these? or are you just trolling?

firebird99
06-23-2012, 01:48 PM
Don't back pedal so hard you're going to fall and hurt yourself

How about you do your homework before the next time you jump on here calling people out because I said from day one it would go 200 but it needs "perfect" conditions so please show me either a video of proof that im wrong or a post that backs your accusation, I'll be waiting.:corn:

88blackgt
06-23-2012, 06:58 PM
How about you do your homework before the next time you jump on here calling people out because I said from day one it would go 200 but it needs "perfect" conditions so please show me either a video of proof that im wrong or a post that backs your accusation, I'll be waiting.:corn:

Project backpedal discovered; begin deflecting

1ltcap
06-23-2012, 07:12 PM
yea, 'cause that's useful and insightful posting right there. ya fucking retard.

D3VIL
06-24-2012, 03:21 AM
How is it that when the GT500 in two different videos DOES NOT accomplish 200mph there are people still saying it does... But when GM releases official times saying it 11.9 stock everyone an their mom comes out and tries to say it did it on DR, what's the proof?

LIKE I SAID! We are all bias in a way or another even if we don't wanna admit it. Root for whichever car you want but don't diss on the other car, b/c they are both fantastic.

And the fact that car "enthusiasts" say "when am I gonna drive my car in the twisties?" WAY more time than you'll drive your car to 200 that's for sure!

I wonder what the GT500's rpm is when it's doing 75 cruise since the gearing is ridiculously tall. Should probably give you 20+hwy which is really nice for what it is.

916 BREDWNR
06-24-2012, 04:46 AM
I was using 199.8 mph as a saying. I hate the in a perfect condition the car will hit 200 mph. The ZR1 did without someone making an excuse that it wasn't perfect condition.

Im just saying that I need data and video. I like the GT500 but people on here are bench racing.

Because Ford vehicles are always allowed to have an excuse, one way or another. Rather it be "the conditions weren't ideal" or "I've got a blower but you've got 65 more cubes" or whatever.

Unfortunately, us GM guys aren't so lucky. :(

Sax1031
06-24-2012, 08:49 PM
But when GM releases official times saying it 11.9 stock everyone an their mom comes out and tries to say it did it on DR, what's the proof?



lol the proof is the car running a 1.69 60ft time.

No one has come anywhere near close to matching that. It did not cut a 1.69 on the factory rubber.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-24-2012, 09:17 PM
lol the proof is the car running a 1.69 60ft time.

No one has come anywhere near close to matching that. It did not cut a 1.69 on the factory rubber.

GM never claimed the 60' was on DRs or stock tires. They simply said 11.9 was achieved on stock tires. Motor Trend also got 11.9 in their review of the ZL1 and a 0-60 in 3.8. So thats 2 different sources claiming 11.9 on stock tires. I have a feeling that its an issue with trouble launching the manual, sounds like it requires alittle bit of pedal work to get it to launch good. The automatic is known for launching in 2nd gear unless the driver puts it into 1st after selecting manual shift. Theres a write up on it at Camaro5.com. Move to 2:10 on the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FygVmlmhrO4
http://wot.motortrend.com/stock-2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-runs-11s-in-the-quarter-mile-201921.html
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/May/0504_camaro_zl1.html

ss1129
06-24-2012, 09:44 PM
The automatic is known for launching in 2nd gear unless the driver puts it into 1st after selecting manual shift. Theres a write up on it at Camaro5.com. Move to 2:10 on the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FygVmlmhrO4
http://wot.motortrend.com/stock-2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-runs-11s-in-the-quarter-mile-201921.html
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/May/0504_camaro_zl1.html

c5 is a fucking retarded group of former bmw and lexus owners that know jack shit about cars. Anything tech info coming from there should be thrown in the garbage. They said the same shit when the SS came out.

Sax1031
06-24-2012, 09:57 PM
GM never claimed the 60' was on DRs or stock tires.

they showed the timeslips in the video they made promoting the runs. They most certainly claimed a 1.69 and 1.73 60ft time on stock tires.

The problem is idiots actually believe them.

D3VIL
06-24-2012, 10:10 PM
Because Ford vehicles are always allowed to have an excuse, one way or another. Rather it be "the conditions weren't ideal" or "I've got a blower but you've got 65 more cubes" or whatever.

Unfortunately, us GM guys aren't so lucky. :(

We have the best excuse of them all, which is the vette.

And it's not an excuse it's simply a fact, you need gaps between your product thus making each product relevant. The Camaro cannot go into the vette territory, and it's as simple as that.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-24-2012, 10:12 PM
they showed the timeslips in the video they made promoting the runs. They most certainly claimed a 1.69 and 1.73 60ft time on stock tires.

The problem is idiots actually believe them.

This is from the GM release:
"The 11.93-second ET in a stock ZL1 tested by the engineers wore the factory-issued Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar G:2 tires developed specifically for it, putting the car only a scant 0.44-second away from that additional racing safety requirement."

How do you explain Motor Trend obtaining the SAME 1/4 mile time and even faster 0-60? Should they not be trusted as a source for automotive data?

Sax1031
06-24-2012, 10:17 PM
Motortrend ran a 12.1 @ 117.4 mph in the ZL1.

Inside the Line claimed the 11.9. 12.1 is by far the closest to a 11.9 from any of the mag reviews of the ZL1.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-24-2012, 10:22 PM
Motortrend ran a 12.1 @ 117.4 mph in the ZL1.

Inside the Line claimed the 11.9. 12.1 is by far the closest to a 11.9 from any of the mag reviews of the ZL1.

Inside Line had one of the worst times posted for the ZL1 by far(12.4). Did you watch the video i posted @time index 2:10? Carlos verbally says it himself. Motor Trend had the best results when it came to the ZL1 1/4 mile times. Just like they had the best 1/4 times for the GT500, other reviews were 11.8-12sec.

Sax1031
06-24-2012, 10:26 PM
I meant Ignition, not Inside the Line.

And yes he says it runs a little under 12. Whatever that means. We don't even get to see the run itself.

Nobody has come close to reproducing a sub 1.7 60ft times on stock tires, because it is not possible.

D3VIL
06-24-2012, 10:29 PM
Thought this was kinda interesting of the huge bump in the trap speed with the an intake

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225387

Sax1031
06-24-2012, 10:29 PM
And lol apparently he misspoke in that video. The best recorded run was a 12.1.

This is from the administrators of MotorTrend Forums.

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/9081876/sports-high-performance-cars/finally-a-decent-zl1-video-and-driver/index.html

Sax1031
06-24-2012, 10:30 PM
Thought this was kinda interesting of the huge bump in the trap speed with the an intake

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225387

+ tune.

And that is closer to what the things should run on the best runs stock.

Sax1031
06-24-2012, 10:36 PM
The shock and awe of 580 hp must’ve messed with my brain. The best run I saw without launch control was 12.1 sec @ 117.4 mph. – Carlos Lago

You can look at that video you posted and find this comment posted by MotorTrend if you want.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-24-2012, 10:43 PM
I meant Ignition, not Inside the Line.

And yes he says it runs a little under 12. Whatever that means. We don't even get to see the run itself.

Nobody has come close to reproducing a sub 1.7 60ft times on stock tires, because it is not possible.

Correct he does say under 12sec which would lead one to assume high 11s. Not sure about the 60' just because they never said this was our 60' with stock tires. Yes you can see the time slips in the vid but they fail to mention whether those time slips were the ones made with the DRs or stock tires.

Sax1031
06-24-2012, 10:45 PM
Correct he does say under 12sec which would lead one to assume high 11s. Not sure about the 60' just because they never said this was our 60' with stock tires. Yes you can see the time slips in the vid but they fail to mention whether those time slips were the ones made with the DRs or stock tires.

They claimed those timeslips on stock tires. Autoblog even contacted them again to ask them to clarify. They said those times were on stock rubber. GM vaguely said the ZL1 went a tenth faster with DRs but provided no timeslips or proof.


Also if you check a couple posts above this one you will see that not even Ignition ran an 11 second run. Best pass they saw was a 12.1.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-24-2012, 11:00 PM
They claimed those timeslips on stock tires. Autoblog even contacted them again to ask them to clarify. They said those times were on stock rubber. GM vaguely said the ZL1 went a tenth faster with DRs but provided no timeslips or proof.


Also if you check a couple posts above this one you will see that not even Ignition ran an 11 second run. Best pass they saw was a 12.1.

Holy shit, fuck that im not reading 300+ pages of youtube comments! I think i would rather take your word for it. Yea i saw the autoblog updates as well stating 11s but yea its all alittle gray, i can see why people would doubt.

Sax1031
06-24-2012, 11:06 PM
If you want to see the comment go to the video link. Then select "show all" comments. That narrows it to 8 pages. The comment is on the 7th page about midway down, posted under the mototrend name. Pretty shitty they didn't add an edit in the vid description.

1ltcap
06-24-2012, 11:10 PM
They claimed those timeslips on stock tires. Autoblog even contacted them again to ask them to clarify. They said those times were on stock rubber. GM vaguely said the ZL1 went a tenth faster with DRs but provided no timeslips or proof.


Also if you check a couple posts above this one you will see that not even Ignition ran an 11 second run. Best pass they saw was a 12.1.

drag radials should be good for more than a tenth.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-24-2012, 11:18 PM
If you want to see the comment go to the video link. Then select "show all" comments. That narrows it to 8 pages. The comment is on the 7th page about midway down, posted under the mototrend name. Pretty shitty they didn't add an edit in the vid description.

Wow thx for pointing that out! straight from the horses mouth very nice find indeed.(inserting foot into mouth)

firebird99
06-24-2012, 11:56 PM
Guess a 12.1 isn't to bad since they (MT) didn't even test it on a real strip that alone could cut a decent amount of time and nobody could argue that.

Sax1031
06-25-2012, 05:34 AM
GT500 beats ZL1 at Willow.

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2012/2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-track-comparison-test.html

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-25-2012, 06:04 AM
Terrible review. These guys lost alot of credibility with me.
**edit:i think this is a completely different review from the (IL) 3 part series.

Z Fury
06-25-2012, 07:36 AM
Sounds to me like the Camaro is the easier car to get great numbers out of on a road course. The GT500 is likely faster on at least a few road courses, but it will take a skilled driver to do it, whereas the Camaro has all of the "nanny features" that allow a more average driver to post great times.

1ltcap
06-25-2012, 08:03 AM
Sounds to me like the Camaro is the easier car to get great numbers out of on a road course. The GT500 is likely faster on at least a few road courses, but it will take a skilled driver to do it, whereas the Camaro has all of the "nanny features" that allow a more average driver to post great times.

BESIDES being sarcastic, that's why i say

zl1=easy mode
gt500=drivers car.

BOBS99SS
06-25-2012, 08:17 AM
Which ever one has more power,and is faster in a straight line is all i care about, yes the zl1 is a killer track car but when a gt500 puts a few lengths on ya at the stoplight are you really going to say (lets head on a road with twistes ) this is just imo, the winner always goes to the car that has more power and does the 1/4 faster,this is how its been and how it always will be,

1ltcap
06-25-2012, 10:14 AM
GT500 beats ZL1 at Willow.

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2012/2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-track-comparison-test.html

I like how the slower car wins now.....

JD_AMG
06-25-2012, 05:00 PM
Which ever one has more power,and is faster in a straight line is all i care about, yes the zl1 is a killer track car but when a gt500 puts a few lengths on ya at the stoplight are you really going to say (lets head on a road with twistes ) this is just imo, the winner always goes to the car that has more power and does the 1/4 faster,this is how its been and how it always will be,

I really hope people are not paying $50L+ for a performance car to only race from stop lights....
Not saying which car is "better", but seriously this isn't the 60s any more.

Sax1031
06-25-2012, 05:13 PM
I really hope people are not paying $50L+ for a performance car to only race from stop lights....
Not saying which car is "better", but seriously this isn't the 60s any more.

The vast majority of people will not race these cars.

The closest most the cars will ever come to racing is stop light acceleration runs.

firebird99
06-25-2012, 08:23 PM
^^^^ Well when you put it like that then I guess we could go a step further and say most people will just drive them and enjoy them for what they are and not pick them apart for what there not.:chug:

916 BREDWNR
06-25-2012, 08:45 PM
We have the best excuse of them all, which is the vette.

And it's not an excuse it's simply a fact, you need gaps between your product thus making each product relevant. The Camaro cannot go into the vette territory, and it's as simple as that.

True, true. :nod:

LS1LT1
06-26-2012, 12:04 AM
Nobody has come close to reproducing a sub 1.7 60ft times on stock tires, because it is not possible.Do you mean in a ZL1 or any car?
C6 ZR1 has done it (1.68) as well as few 1.70s and even a C6 Z06 has cut a 1.70, all on stock/OEM tires. Of course the ZR1 has more power and both the ZR1 and Z06 are carrying less weight as well.






drag radials should be good for more than a tenth.They usually are but not always on a bone stock car with stock PCM tuning. My C6 went from a best sixty foot of 1.88 on stock tires down to only 1.84 with a swap to M/T drag radials, no other changes. Torque management can do some screwy things when it comes to pulling timing and the messages sent from a sticky tire/sticky track back to the PCM.
They did state emphatically that the 11.9 second runs for both the manual and automatic ZL1s were achieved on the stock tires, not drag radials.
I agree there was some slight confusion/vagueness about it initially, but I highly doubt that GM engineers/test drivers are going to blatantly lie to the international media and public and risk total shame and embarrassment like that. Though I too wish they had at least showed the actual 11.9 passes on the scoreboard in those videos.

Cole Train
06-26-2012, 12:22 AM
I think tech is the only car forum I am on where everyone acts like they never like to drive on curvy backroads. Is there seriously no one else on here who enjoys hard cornering in their car as much if not more than straight line punches? It has to be the 2 ton 40 year old boat from the 70s?

BTW I'm sure the GT500 is just as fun at that too but that's not the point so much as people on here acting like their fbody/mustangs have never taken a turn under throttle.

There sure are a lot of roads out there to play on that aren't straight...

Part of the reason i went from a Camaro to a Vette was that i enjoyed hitting the curves from time to time and doing some black hills runs with friends. As for all the shit throwing going on in these threads i may stop opening them from now on...

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-26-2012, 01:10 AM
Do you mean in a ZL1 or any car?
C6 ZR1 has done it (1.68) as well as few 1.70s and even a C6 Z06 has cut a 1.70, all on stock/OEM tires. Of course the ZR1 has more power and both the ZR1 and Z06 are carrying less weight as well.






They usually are but not always on a bone stock car with stock PCM tuning. My C6 went from a best sixty foot of 1.88 on stock tires down to only 1.84 with a swap to M/T drag radials, no other changes. Torque management can do some screwy things when it comes to pulling timing and the messages sent from a sticky tire/sticky track back to the PCM.
They did state emphatically that the 11.9 second runs for both the manual and automatic ZL1s were achieved on the stock tires, not drag radials.
I agree there was some slight confusion/vagueness about it initially, but I highly doubt that GM engineers/test drivers are going to blatantly lie to the international media and public and risk total shame and embarrassment like that. Though I too wish they had at least showed the actual 11.9 passes on the scoreboard in those videos.


I agree, its terrible from GMs end for not giving definitive proof. But like it has been proven already in this thread GM is the only one to date to get 11.9 from the ZL1. I too believe they wouldnt damage their credibility by lying but facts are facts until the runs can be reproduced by an independent source.

firebird99
06-26-2012, 04:25 AM
Does anyone know what the conditions (temp,elevation,etc) where when GM did their 11.9x run?

1ltcap
06-26-2012, 07:55 AM
Do you mean in a ZL1 or any car?
C6 ZR1 has done it (1.68) as well as few 1.70s and even a C6 Z06 has cut a 1.70, all on stock/OEM tires. Of course the ZR1 has more power and both the ZR1 and Z06 are carrying less weight as well.






They usually are but not always on a bone stock car with stock PCM tuning. My C6 went from a best sixty foot of 1.88 on stock tires down to only 1.84 with a swap to M/T drag radials, no other changes. Torque management can do some screwy things when it comes to pulling timing and the messages sent from a sticky tire/sticky track back to the PCM.
They did state emphatically that the 11.9 second runs for both the manual and automatic ZL1s were achieved on the stock tires, not drag radials.
I agree there was some slight confusion/vagueness about it initially, but I highly doubt that GM engineers/test drivers are going to blatantly lie to the international media and public and risk total shame and embarrassment like that. Though I too wish they had at least showed the actual 11.9 passes on the scoreboard in those videos.


not to be argumentative, but........look to the bolded section. it was either vague, or clear. if it was stated emphatically, then it would be clear. if it was stated vaguely, then it could not have been stated emphatically.

that all said, they've been lying to the press for some time about the zl, right from the get go. either that, or they truly didn't know the capabilities of the shelby. i kinda find it hard that the shelbys capabilities were kept as THAT good of a secret though to be honest.

Z Fury
06-26-2012, 08:01 AM
They did state emphatically that the 11.9 second runs for both the manual and automatic ZL1s were achieved on the stock tires, not drag radials.
I agree there was some slight confusion/vagueness about it initially, but I highly doubt that GM engineers/test drivers are going to blatantly lie to the international media and public and risk total shame and embarrassment like that. Though I too wish they had at least showed the actual 11.9 passes on the scoreboard in those videos.

To be fair, GM did say (and continues to say/advertise) that a 4-cylinder Equinox/Terrain is capable of 32mpg highway, and NO ONE has come close to that number (not that I've read about anyway, and I've been researching these vehicles for months now).

They have the ability to lie here and just claim that no one else knows how to drive the car to its full potential like the guys who designed it. Then, someday, someone will knock out an 11.9 and their "lie" will be fully validated as truth.

1ltcap
06-26-2012, 08:08 AM
ford escape tops 32mpg i think.

ss1129
06-26-2012, 08:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fanGci1ATTc

I dont know if you guys are talking about this video or not, but they state and it shows them throwing DRs on the car.

88blackgt
06-26-2012, 09:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fanGci1ATTc

I dont know if you guys are talking about this video or not, but they state and it shows them throwing DRs on the car.

There was also a Tech member at this event and said they put the DRs on in search of a 11.xx time

gocartone
06-26-2012, 12:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fanGci1ATTc

I dont know if you guys are talking about this video or not, but they state and it shows them throwing DRs on the car.

That's the video GM posted and then tried to say they were on the stock tires with the 11.9 run. IDK why everyone keeps arguing about this, the car can run in the 11s with good air, that isn't the problem. The problem is that GM straight up lied about what tires they were using to run 11.9 that day.

Cole Train
06-26-2012, 01:00 PM
Looks like Nitto DR's. That black ZL1 in that vid looks BADASS :)

ss1129
06-26-2012, 02:11 PM
That's the video GM posted and then tried to say they were on the stock tires with the 11.9 run. IDK why everyone keeps arguing about this, the car can run in the 11s with good air, that isn't the problem. The problem is that GM straight up lied about what tires they were using to run 11.9 that day.

Where did they say they ran it on stock tires? In the video they straight up said they used DRs because they knew everyone would be using them anyways.:confused:

CaptainDirtymax
06-26-2012, 03:03 PM
ford escape tops 32mpg i think.

really??? with what engine??? my family has two of them. a 3.0 v6 AWD and a 2.5 I4 FWD. the 2.5 gets 28mpg highway at best running 65mph. the 3.0 is lucky to touch 25mpg @ 65mph.

1ltcap
06-26-2012, 03:17 PM
really??? with what engine??? my family has two of them. a 3.0 v6 AWD and a 2.5 I4 FWD. the 2.5 gets 28mpg highway at best running 65mph. the 3.0 is lucky to touch 25mpg @ 65mph.

actually, i just went back and looked again. i was trying to get that post in before the customer walked up to me. the hybrid is the one getting that...the regular gas one looks pretty shitty.

focus and fusion though.......

gocartone
06-26-2012, 04:00 PM
Where did they say they ran it on stock tires? In the video they straight up said they used DRs because they knew everyone would be using them anyways.:confused:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/04/2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-runs-quarter-mile-in-11-93-seconds/

*UPDATE: We've placed a call to Chevrolet inquiring whether these times were recorded on stock tires, as the press release indicates, or on drag radials. We'll add another update as soon as we hear back.

*UPDATE TWO: The times quoted in the press release – 11.93 for the auto and 11.96 for the manual – were recorded on the stock Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar G:2 tires. According to Chevrolet, the team knocked about a tenth of a second off those numbers with the Mickey Thompson drag tires.

Sax1031
06-26-2012, 04:30 PM
my favorite part is, "the team knocked about a tenth of a second off those numbers with the Mickey Thompson drag tires."


I can't believe people actually believe that bullcrap.

evolve
06-26-2012, 07:00 PM
my favorite part is, "the team knocked about a tenth of a second off those numbers with the Mickey Thompson drag tires."


I can't believe people actually believe that bullcrap.

This. MT DRs are effin awesome. 1/10th? LMAO at that crap.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-26-2012, 07:01 PM
my favorite part is, "the team knocked about a tenth of a second off those numbers with the Mickey Thompson drag tires."


I can't believe people actually believe that bullcrap.

Just curious, Camaro5 member got 11.4@120.88 with slicks and skinnies(rest bone stock), where would you put him at with stock tires? Some members here say a good half second, just want to know your thoughts on this.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219801
Edit**DA -600(possibly, dont quote me on that DA), automatic trans(verified).

Sax1031
06-26-2012, 07:04 PM
Hard to say.

A 2011/12 GT500 with slicks and skinnies has run 11.16 @ 124 mph.

I do believe when the weather gets cooler and at a fast track you will see a ZL1 stock run 11.8s-11.9s at 120-122mph.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-26-2012, 07:27 PM
Hard to say.

A 2011/12 GT500 with slicks and skinnies has run 11.16 @ 124 mph.

I do believe when the weather gets cooler and at a fast track you will see a ZL1 stock run 11.8s-11.9s at 120-122mph.

Cool, very insightful thank you.

gocartone
06-26-2012, 07:44 PM
Just curious, Camaro5 member got 11.4@120.88 with slicks and skinnies(rest bone stock), where would you put him at with stock tires? Some members here say a good half second, just want to know your thoughts on this.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219801
Edit**DA -600(possibly, dont quote me on that DA), automatic trans(verified).

I used the DA calculator and got -1100; it was around THIRTY-THREE degrees with a 600ft elevation track. 120.88mph on what was a hero run is not impressive at all, and I doubt anyone is going to run any better than that.

firebird99
06-26-2012, 09:26 PM
^^^ how did you come up with those numbers?

gocartone
06-26-2012, 10:10 PM
Online DA calculator that lists every drag track in the US with temperatures for every hour, not out of my ass like the nutswinggers tend to do.

8:54am that date-
33.1deg, 54% humidity, 30.17 pressure with a track elevation of 603ft comes out to a DA of -1249'

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-26-2012, 10:14 PM
I used the DA calculator and got -1100; it was around THIRTY-THREE degrees with a 600ft elevation track. 120.88mph on what was a hero run is not impressive at all, and I doubt anyone is going to run any better than that.

Wouldnt the corrected SL run look like 11.553 @ 119.691 MPH?

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-26-2012, 10:15 PM
^^^ how did you come up with those numbers?

http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php

gocartone
06-26-2012, 10:32 PM
Wouldnt the corrected SL run look like 11.553 @ 119.691 MPH?

I wouldn't count on their correction to work great, and that's being corrected to a DA of 0 which is also really good air. Either way, I don't see anything higher than a 122 trap with a manual ever happening, which is a ways behind the 2011/2012 GT500.

LS1LT1
06-27-2012, 04:35 AM
Does anyone know what the conditions (temp,elevation,etc) where when GM did their 11.9x run?I believe it was down south (Georgia, South Carolina?) some time in late April/May perhaps.
Probably not the best of air conditions/density altitude, but not the worst either?





my favorite part is, "the team knocked about a tenth of a second off those numbers with the Mickey Thompson drag tires."

I can't believe people actually believe that bullcrap.On the manual car you might have a point, but on the automatic/6L90 car the drag radials could possibly even hurt it's 1/4 mile time in stock trim with stock tuning (as I'd already mentioned above). A mere tenth is totally believable in my opinion.
I gained less than half a tenth going from stock 19" street tires (300 treadwear Goodyear F1 GSs that weren't even as sticky as the stock ZL1 tires by the way) to drag radials in my otherwise stock Corvette in the same conditions. It wasn't until I had a few bolt ons/tuning/torque management removal that I was truly able to utilize the advantages of the drag radials.
Mustangs (especially manual ones) are probably a little different (better?) when it comes to tuning/torque management limitations.

LS1LT1
06-27-2012, 04:46 AM
I do believe when the weather gets cooler and at a fast track you will see a ZL1 stock run 11.8s-11.9s at 120-122mph.I'm thinking maybe just a little quicker than that even. If GM's 11.9x numbers are correct (and I believe they are telling the truth) and based on the 'average' air/track conditions that I think they ran in, then in (well driven) private hands at a Houston Raceway Park or an MIR on a great fall/winter day or night we could see as low as 11.6s and 123mph bone stock. :drive:

Of course on that same day/night a well driven stock 2013 GT500 would probably put down 11.2s/11.1s at over 130mph. :eek: :nod:





Either way, I don't see anything higher than a 122 trap with a manual ever happeningYou may be correct, I think 122 or 123 is the upper limit for a bone stock ZL1 on an all out perfect ('hero') pass. :nod:

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-27-2012, 04:52 AM
Fastest trap speed so far for a stock ZL1 119mph, stock for stock isnt this slightly faster than the 2012 GT500?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEqvBd0QBHM&feature=related

firebird99
06-27-2012, 07:06 AM
http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php
Thank you sir.
I wouldn't count on their correction to work great, and that's being corrected to a DA of 0 which is also really good air. Either way, I don't see anything higher than a 122 trap with a manual ever happening, which is a ways behind the 2011/2012 GT500.

Why go through the effort to find out the conditions of the track if your not going to accept its corrected run times and mph?

1ltcap
06-27-2012, 08:20 AM
Wouldnt the corrected SL run look like 11.553 @ 119.691 MPH?

here we go with "corrected" again. corrected is bullshit. the time on your slip is the time you ran.

1ltcap
06-27-2012, 08:25 AM
I believe it was down south (Georgia, South Carolina?) some time in late April/May perhaps.
Probably not the best of air conditions/density altitude, but not the worst either?





On the manual car you might have a point, but on the automatic/6L90 car the drag radials could possibly even hurt it's 1/4 mile time in stock trim with stock tuning (as I'd already mentioned above). A mere tenth is totally believable in my opinion.
I gained less than half a tenth going from stock 19" street tires (300 treadwear Goodyear F1 GSs that weren't even as sticky as the stock ZL1 tires by the way) to drag radials in my otherwise stock Corvette in the same conditions. It wasn't until I had a few bolt ons/tuning/torque management removal that I was truly able to utilize the advantages of the drag radials.
Mustangs (especially manual ones) are probably a little different (better?) when it comes to tuning/torque management limitations.

perchance were they at the same place that the shelby was tested?

88blackgt
06-27-2012, 09:30 AM
I used the DA calculator and got -1100; it was around THIRTY-THREE degrees with a 600ft elevation track. 120.88mph on what was a hero run is not impressive at all, and I doubt anyone is going to run any better than that.

Wow conditions don't get much better. You're right I think; it's not likely we'll see much quicker than 122, maybe a 123

firebird99
06-27-2012, 09:33 AM
here we go with "corrected" again. corrected is bullshit. the time on your slip is the time you ran.

Agreed.

88blackgt
06-27-2012, 10:14 AM
Why go through the effort to find out the conditions of the track if your not going to accept its corrected run times and mph?

Agreed.

??? You're the one bringing up corrected times then you agree they don't mean anything?

1ltcap
06-27-2012, 10:21 AM
it was 89thirdgen that brought up the corrected time shit.

88blackgt
06-27-2012, 10:55 AM
it was 89thirdgen that brought up the corrected time shit.

See quote

Sax1031
06-27-2012, 10:59 AM
Fastest trap speed so far for a stock ZL1 119mph, stock for stock isnt this slightly faster than the 2012 GT500?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEqvBd0QBHM&feature=related

No. Several stock pre 13 GT500s have gone 120+

1ltcap
06-27-2012, 11:45 AM
See quote

LOLOLOLOL

i didn't realize that was in the quote area.

firebird99
06-27-2012, 12:03 PM
??? You're the one bringing up corrected times then you agree they don't mean anything?

Go back and read the post in which it was a response to HE accepts one part and not the other and I asked him why so try again.

88blackgt
06-27-2012, 12:13 PM
Go back and read the post in which it was a response to HE accepts one part and not the other and I asked him why so try again.

You are clueless so I'll spell it out for you. Looking up the DA indicates how good that run was compared to the car's potential. It was also brought up to give perspective on the hero run that was posted. There are other uses for DA than corrected times.

gocartone
06-27-2012, 12:19 PM
Go back and read the post in which it was a response to HE accepts one part and not the other and I asked him why so try again.

What the hell are you talking about? :lol: I bought up the conditions of the track, that has nothing to do with the correction bullshit. I was just pointing out the fact that the run was done in PERFECT conditions. You need to try again :bang:

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-27-2012, 02:50 PM
here we go with "corrected" again. corrected is bullshit. the time on your slip is the time you ran.

I completely agree, user "gocartone" said the ZL1 that ran the 11.43 @120.88 only did so in the best of conditions which was i showed him the corrected(11.553 @ 119.691 MPH @SL) time wasnt far off from the actual time achieved(refer to post 202 & 205). From what i hear Lebanon isnt even that fast of a track compared to tracks like Atco, Englishtown ect....wasnt trying to ruffle feathers.

89ThirdGenCamaro3310
06-27-2012, 03:03 PM
No. Several stock pre 13 GT500s have gone 120+

Would those be considered "hero" runs? Here MT review:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1007_2011_ford_shelby_gt500_test/viewall.html

Sax1031
06-27-2012, 03:06 PM
Would those be considered "hero" runs? Here MT review:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1007_2011_ford_shelby_gt500_test/viewall.html

By the nature of Evan Smith driving the car you might would consider them hero runs.

Sax1031
06-27-2012, 03:20 PM
I have heard it all. Claiming putting a tire on a car will slow it down.

And why in the world would you have the computers aids on when running on a tire is beyond me.

If you believe a stock ZL1 on stock tires ran a 1.69 60ft time, I feel bad for you.

gocartone
06-27-2012, 04:08 PM
Would those be considered "hero" runs? Here MT review:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1007_2011_ford_shelby_gt500_test/viewall.html

I don't know the conditions for each and every run, but there are a lot of them in the 122-124 range stock+tires.

LS1LT1
06-27-2012, 06:19 PM
here we go with "corrected" again. corrected is bullshit. the time on your slip is the time you ran.:werd: I agree 100%. :nod:

LS1LT1
06-27-2012, 06:49 PM
I have heard it all. Claiming putting a tire on a car will slow it down.No, I didn't say they will slow it down, I said it could possibly slow it down. But in most cases no, they will usually help at least somewhat (or even A LOT in the case of the GT500s with apparently less PCM intrusions). At the very least a drag radial does not automatically have to give one more than a full tenth reduction in ET as long as the car (or track prep) don't require it. I will assume that's what happened with the GM ZL1 tests. Or maybe they are in fact blatantly lying, I don't know.

Have you drag raced many stock/near stock late model GM cars?
I have.
And I've lived that whole 'street tire/drag radial' before/after comparison first hand on both stock/near stock Corvettes and F-bodies. And these principles might apply even more so on the newer cars, especially if/when using a sophisticated launch control system.
Using a drag radial on a car that is already dead hooking can slow it down. Ask any experienced drag racer, just like doing too much of a burnout or running too low of a tire pressure or even using a bias ply slick instead of a drag radial, putting a stickier tire on a car that didn't need it can in fact slow it down, especially it's trap speeds.
I didn't make this stuff up dude.




And why in the world would you have the computers aids on when running on a tire is beyond me.I'm not talking about computer aids that can be turned off/on, I'm talking about torque management, inherent nannies within the PCM/TCM that can only be altered/reduced through tuning (HP Tuners/EFI Live) etc. It's often done to protect the driveline, for warranty purposes, unfortunately.
I thought this was common knowledge among most 'tech savvy' car enthusiasts on this board, but apparently not?




If you believe a stock ZL1 on stock tires ran a 1.69 60ft time, I feel bad for you.So do you not believe that a bone stock C6 ZR1 cut a 1.68 sixty foot either?
Or that a bone stock C6 Z06 cut a 1.70?
I admit that in a heavy car such as the ZL1 it is a little difficult to believe (even with substantially more hp/tq than the Z06 that was able to cut a 1.70 has), but I still don't think that it's out of the question.

But ya know what, I will give you that. I will agree that it is impossible and that GM/Chevrolet simply has to be lying about the street tire/drag radial thing if you'll do one thing for me in return:
If/when (and it may never happen) someone else in the next 5-6 months does happen to match (or beat) that claimed sixty foot time of 1.69 in their bone stock/stock tire'd ZL1, that you'll come back and visit this thread and apologize for calling them (and me) liars LOL. ;)

Sax1031
06-27-2012, 07:50 PM
you do realize the launch control feature has consistently slowed the ZL1 down greatly. what this leads you to believe is the car is far from capable of dead launching on the street tires, unless of course the GM engineers are not that good at math.

Another thing to consider is the first ZL1s we have seen run on a tire are running 11.4s-11.5s. So I guess I could give you the fact the GM engineers can't drive a car.

And comparing a 2 seat sports car with far less weight to a 4000+ lb ZL1 is beyond a stretch.

Hell stock GTRs have are doing great to run low 1.7 60ft times on street tires with AWD.

But I am sure you are right. That magnetic juice must be really special.

1ltcap
06-27-2012, 08:02 PM
you do realize the launch control feature has consistently slowed the ZL1 down greatly. what this leads you to believe is the car is far from capable of dead launching on the street tires, unless of course the GM engineers are not that good at math.

Another thing to consider is the first ZL1s we have seen run on a tire are running 11.4s-11.5s. So I guess I could give you the fact the GM engineers can't drive a car.

And comparing a 2 seat sports car with far less weight to a 4000+ lb ZL1 is beyond a stretch.

Hell stock GTRs have are doing great to run low 1.7 60ft times on street tires with AWD.

But I am sure you are right. That magnetic juice must be really special.

could it not be possible that the launch control is severly softened up in order to preserve that overcomplicated IRS? i can easily imagine an axle launching on a 6k rpm drag launch.

Sax1031
06-27-2012, 08:04 PM
could it not be possible that the launch control is severly softened up in order to preserve that overcomplicated IRS? i can easily imagine an axle launching on a 6k rpm drag launch.

I am sure that the computer does cut back in direct relation to the IRS, but probably not that much. The Corvettes will take a hell of a beating on that IRS, I am sure the ZL1s is comparable in strength to those.

Sax1031
06-27-2012, 08:08 PM
It is ridiculous to think the ZL1 is a low 1.6 or high 1.5 60ft car on a drag radial.

1ltcap
06-27-2012, 08:11 PM
I am sure that the computer does cut back in direct relation to the IRS, but probably not that much. The Corvettes will take a hell of a beating on that IRS, I am sure the ZL1s is comparable in strength to those.

before i typed that question, i was thinking about the vettes....but don'yt they only weigh about 3300 or 3400? that's nearly a full 800# less than the zl1. that weight difference i could imagine putting a LOT of extra stress on those axles on a hard launch, whereas the vette's pretty lean, and will just go like a bat outta hell.

LS1LT1
06-27-2012, 09:15 PM
you do realize the launch control feature has consistently slowed the ZL1 down greatly. what this leads you to believe is the car is far from capable of dead launching on the street tires, unless of course the GM engineers are not that good at math.I agree, if I were to run the car at a drag strip I certainly wouldn't use the launch control at all, especially if I was on a heated drag radial and the track was decently prepped (speaking of which, perhaps GM paid extra for more prep that day?).




Another thing to consider is the first ZL1s we have seen run on a tire are running 11.4s-11.5s. So I guess I could give you the fact the GM engineers can't drive a car.That's a possibility, I can't imagine that they could be so stupid as to not bring a 'hotshoe' with them but maybe LOL.




the Corvettes will take a hell of a beating on that IRS, I am sure the ZL1s is comparable in strength to those.True.
The ZL1 might be even stronger as it does have that iron center carrier, not sure about the actual strength of the ring/pinion or axles or anything versus the Z06's or ZR1's very stout all aluminum IRS systems.




It is ridiculous to think the ZL1 is a low 1.6 or high 1.5 60ft car on a drag radial.I agree. Only time will tell if it's actually truly legit or not. :burn:




before i typed that question, i was thinking about the vettes....but don'yt they only weigh about 3300 or 3400? that's nearly a full 800# less than the zl1. that weight difference i could imagine putting a LOT of extra stress on those axles on a hard launch, whereas the vette's pretty lean, and will just go like a bat outta hell.Yes, the ZR1 weighs roughly 3350 and the Z06 is only about 3175. Much easier on driveline components and yes, certainly much easier to believe them doing 1.68-1.70 short times versus the portly 4100 pound (plus driver) ZL1.
I will admit, a 1.69 does sound a little hard to believe LOL, they would deserve ALL of the internet shit storm that they would receive if they in fact were lying about that.

M1tch
06-29-2012, 09:23 AM
No Colonel Sanders your wrong. Momma's right :judge:

NicolasKL
06-29-2012, 09:32 AM
1.69 in a 4300 pound (race weight) car with 305s is way more than a LITTLE hard to believe.

And even if it did happen, which I sincerely doubt, it's still bogus, because the only way you'd get it is with such insane track prep and perfect conditions that it'll never, ever be duplicated, so it might as well not have happened.

LS1LT1
06-29-2012, 01:46 PM
1.69 in a 4300 pound (race weight) car with 305s is way more than a LITTLE hard to believe.Agreed.





And even if it did happen, which I sincerely doubt, it's still bogus, because the only way you'd get it is with such insane track prep and perfect conditions that it'll never, ever be duplicated, so it might as well not have happened.Not agreed.
If astronauts had only landed on the moon just one time, would that mean that they didn't actually land on the moon at all/ever?:huh: ;)
During a 1/4 mile pass, the numbers on the time slip are the numbers that the car generated, regardless of whether it can duplicated or not.
Of course for 'NHRA official' record setting runs it does need to be 'backed up' within a certain amount of time and within a certain amount of hundredths but not sure that truly applies here.

1ltcap
06-29-2012, 02:59 PM
Agreed.





Not agreed.
If astronauts had only landed on the moon just one time, would that mean that they didn't actually land on the moon at all/ever?:huh: ;)
During a 1/4 mile pass, the numbers on the time slip are the numbers that the car generated, regardless of whether it can duplicated or not.
Of course for 'NHRA official' record setting runs it does need to be 'backed up' within a certain amount of time and within a certain amount of hundredths but not sure that truly applies here.

you sure they just weren't out in the desert? :devil:

LS1LT1
06-29-2012, 04:43 PM
you sure they just weren't out in the desert? :devil:Anything is possible. :D ;)

http://youtu.be/RhLHAKoK35w

NicolasKL
06-29-2012, 05:59 PM
Not agreed.
If astronauts had only landed on the moon just one time, would that mean that they didn't actually land on the moon at all/ever?:huh: ;)

Something like a moon landing is inherently important/relevant, for reasons I hopefully don't have to outline.

A 1/4 mile time is only really relevant if it reflects real world performance, and is therefore able to be duplicated. If I'm shopping for ZL1s, does it matter if GM pulled a 1.69 once (due to INSANE track prep and conditions so perfect that they'll never be duplicated) if everyone else on the planet is pulling 1.9s or worse?

There are great times, and then there are "great times".

At one end of the great time spectrum, you've got a night with great air (say, -800 DA) and great track prep and a car will turn great times and those absolutely count/matter.

At the other end of this spectrum (the bullshit end of the spectrum), say you enclosed the entire dragstrip, pressurized it with 0 degree air to a density of -5,000', and then installed radiant heat under the asphalt so the car would hook like crazy. A ZL1 might be able to turn a 10.99 under those conditions. Would that "count"? Hell no. It's bogus. It's cheating.

Now, obviously that scenario is crazy hyperbole, but it's just to illustrate that there's amazing conditions, and then there's conditions that are intentionally engineered to be so perfect that they become completely bogus.

And in my opinion a 1.69 60' in a ZL1, if it actually happened, is past the "good" or "great" or "amazing" level, and is into the "bogus" territory.

That said, I don't think it'll really end up mattering. I think someone this fall that's a great driver in negative DA with great track prep will probably turn a legitimate 11.9xx in a stock ZL1. But they sure as hell won't do it with a 1.69 60'.

I think GM was hoping for a corrected 11.9x (which in the real world = probably a 12.5 or 12.6, but most of the shlubs that read Motortrend don't know DA from cunnilingus) from one of the auto rags at Inde, and they didn't get it. Not only did they not get it, then tuners like John H and private owners started popping up with even worse slips (12.5 or thereabouts) and GM got REALLY insecure.

So rather than wait for a Ranger or some other forum hotshoe to run their hero times, they went out and rented a track for an entire day and did it themselves, through insane amounts of VHT and hundreds of pounds of ice, or, maybe, drag radials (though I'd hope not).

I think they took average conditions (from what I recall it wasn't likely that it was a great DA day when they were running these times) and essentially forced them into becoming amazing conditions through completely unreasonable amounts of prep.

Really, it's either that, or they just lied (or made a "mistake") and the times were on DRs.

So that's why I say if no one else duplicates it, it's bogus. If someone else runs an 11.9xx this fall (regardless of 60'), it just means GM created their own hero times. Kind of weak sauce, but not really shady or slimy.

If no one ever managed to duplicate it, it means they engineered conditions so far beyond the norm that they're into that bogus territory I took far too long to describe earlier, in which case IMO the time doesn't count.

LS1LT1
06-29-2012, 11:45 PM
I suppose we'll all just have to wait until more private owners run them in various weather conditions at different tracks while still in stock trim to get a better sampling or 'average'. :nod:

But remember, if we're not going to accept those 'all out best' or 'hero' ETs/MPHs as 'the norm' for the ZL1s....then we also can't accept the ones generated for the GT500 either. :nod:
Meaning, if come November an Evan Smith or Bob Cosby type happens to pull a 10.9 or even an 11.1 out of a bone stock 2013 GT500 at a sea level track it can't be quoted as 'actual' or 'pure' (in your eyes at least).
It's gotta go both ways ya know. ;)

firebird99
06-30-2012, 12:26 AM
^^^^:judge::nod:

evolve
06-30-2012, 01:37 PM
I suppose we'll all just have to wait until more private owners run them in various weather conditions at different tracks while still in stock trim to get a better sampling or 'average'. :nod:

But remember, if we're not going to accept those 'all out best' or 'hero' ETs/MPHs as 'the norm' for the ZL1s....then we also can't accept the ones generated for the GT500 either. :nod:
Meaning, if come November an Evan Smith or Bob Cosby type happens to pull a 10.9 or even an 11.1 out of a bone stock 2013 GT500 at a sea level track it can't be quoted as 'actual' or 'pure' (in your eyes at least).
It's gotta go both ways ya know. ;)

There was a track event in which a ZL1 and GT500 were present. The Z had REALLY bad heat soak issues. I wont say whos Z it was, but it happens to be a shop car WITH an aftermarket HE.

LS1LT1
07-01-2012, 03:06 AM
There was a track event in which a ZL1 and GT500 were present. The Z had REALLY bad heat soak issues. I wont say whos Z it was, but it happens to be a shop car WITH an aftermarket HE.I don't doubt it, I'm betting that on a hot enough day after multiple passes (drag strip or road course) both cars will have their share of heat soak issues. It's one of the things I dislike about Eaton or Magnuson ('top mount') style blowers. But I suppose that the ZL1 could be even worse.

Z Fury
07-01-2012, 08:39 AM
Why would the ZL1 be worse - it has the smaller blower and is generating a lower boost PSI in stock trim than the GT500?

1ltcap
07-01-2012, 09:29 AM
There was a track event in which a ZL1 and GT500 were present. The Z had REALLY bad heat soak issues. I wont say whos Z it was, but it happens to be a shop car WITH an aftermarket HE.

i wonder if any of those "unbiased" magazine writers experienced this problem, and "forgot" to include it in their article.

1ltcap
07-01-2012, 09:30 AM
Why would the ZL1 be worse - it has the smaller blower and is generating a lower boost PSI in stock trim than the GT500?

perhaps ford did their homework?

88blackgt
07-02-2012, 12:15 PM
Why would the ZL1 be worse - it has the smaller blower and is generating a lower boost PSI in stock trim than the GT500?

Have you not seen how much time and engineering Ford put into keeping the car cool so that it could do 200?