View Full Version : 390 rwhp WS6 dissapointing 12.8@111


jthunderz28
06-19-2012, 10:35 AM
02 ws6 m6 with 125k miles

Current power mods:
222/226 cam
BBK LT headers with hf cats
Lid
Catback

I did the cam/ header swap around 95k miles. Did the LS7 clutch a few months ago

Had it retuned and it put down 390/365 SAE corrected.

My best run after about 25 passes is 12.8 @ 111 with a 1.9 60 ft.

Is something wrong with my car or maybe a happy dyno???

BlackScreaminMachine
06-19-2012, 11:04 AM
It's called heavy ass car + M6 transmission + Incorrect tire + not enough Launch RPM = Sub optimal MPH and ET.

So now you need to invest in a rear end, gearing and suspension as well as a drag rim/tire package. Maybe a 2 step and go back. That should be by the time your done with your own labor 3-4 grand. Maybe more depending on parts and what work you dont do.

I can tell you I may like 5-10 rwhp less and managed a 12.3 @ 113 and that considered not even good. I Am very heavy and the car heavy as well , only weight reduction we a fiber glass hood (stock t/a steel to WS.9 Fiberglass), and took the rear seats out. BMR LCA w/ Relocations, BMR TQ arm, Moser 12 bolt 4.10's on Convo Pro's and M/T ET Drags (26" tall small ass slicks).

The car hit so hard that the body bounced off the rear and did the 3 wheel gangsta so long story short, I need to go back but not until I did SFC's Drag bar in the rear, and shocks. ALso weight reduction and maybe more gearing (4.30's or more.

Gearing and the proper tire/rpm speed is going to make a huge difference and may put you in an 11's so as long as you can drive.

----

The car cought bout 1.5 ft on the left and 1 ft on the front. Nice pop but getting stiffer shocks to control is what is needed. I have 10 Way QA1 which is probably not enough but gotta work in the budget....

http://ls1tech.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=551&pictureid=2753

clonedws6
06-19-2012, 11:10 AM
Dynos are made for tuning. Only numbers that count in my book are track. My car "made" 375 supposedly but in a full weight gto went 12.3 at 115.

Mighty Whitey
06-19-2012, 03:29 PM
It's all in the driveline and suspension.
With a 3400lb race weight, I went an 11.15@120.3 with 344rwhp

The Guy in MY 99TA
06-19-2012, 07:04 PM
not being an ass but the DRIVER MOD would be your best mod.... get more time in launching the car and get those shifts quicker.

I've seen multiple bolt-on 6 speed cars run 12.3s-12.4s with no suspension and the stock rear end.

BOLO
06-19-2012, 07:22 PM
With 390, mid 11's should be no problem. Do some weight reductions then get back to the track. GL

flintwrench69
06-19-2012, 08:12 PM
It's called heavy ass car + M6 transmission + Incorrect tire + not enough Launch RPM = Sub optimal MPH and ET.
:nod:

So now you need to invest in a rear end, gearing and suspension as well as a drag rim/tire package. Maybe a 2 step and go back. That should be by the time your done with your own labor 3-4 grand. Maybe more depending on parts and what work you dont do.
Rear end=$2k-$3500 for new
drag wheel & tires=$1500-$2k
2 step=$200
Some suspension stuff like crossmember mounted torque arm, PHB, LCAs & SFCs= $1k. Then if you want drag shocks more$$$ on top of that. It adds up quick.

I can tell you I may like 5-10 rwhp less and managed a 12.3 @ 113 and that considered not even good. I Am very heavy and the car heavy as well , only weight reduction we a fiber glass hood (stock t/a steel to WS.9 Fiberglass), and took the rear seats out. BMR LCA w/ Relocations, BMR TQ arm, Moser 12 bolt 4.10's on Convo Pro's and M/T ET Drags (26" tall small ass slicks).
With 380 whp I ran the same, 12.3 @ 113 with 17 in DRs slippin the clutch
on the stock 10 bolt. 1.9 60s but didnt break.

The car hit so hard that the body bounced off the rear and did the 3 wheel gangsta so long story short, I need to go back but not until I did SFC's Drag bar in the rear, and shocks. ALso weight reduction and maybe more gearing (4.30's or more.
3 wheel gangsta??

adamantium
06-19-2012, 09:31 PM
Change that cam, that mph is terrible. A Friends car went 111 with an SLP lid, ported TB and a chopped off muffler.

jthunderz28
06-19-2012, 11:23 PM
I forgot to mention my car is lowered with a koni shocks/strano spring combo. I do have subframes and adjustable LCAs set for the best angle for drag racing.

I am also running on nitto 555r drag radials set at 18 psi when im at the track. Is 1.7xx gonna be the best 60 ft with my power level/ tire?

One of the rear KONIS adjustable knob is stuck on full stiff and they are sending me a new one.

Would it be ideal to set the rear shocks to full soft???

I have a feeling being lowered is hurting me.

What i fail to understand is the mph of 111??? Thats why im thinking its a happy dynojet. Im running at Sacramento Raceway, i dont think the DA is that horrible.

Thank you all for the input so far.

flintwrench69
06-20-2012, 01:20 AM
I forgot to mention my car is lowered with a koni shocks/strano spring combo. I do have subframes and adjustable LCAs set for the best angle for drag racing.
I would imagine you have the LCA relocation brackets, otherwise you would get wheelhop.

I am also running on nitto 555r drag radials set at 18 psi when im at the track. Is 1.7xx gonna be the best 60 ft with my power level/ tire?
Thats a damn good 60 if youre still on the stock rear. I wouldnt push it any more, unless you dont care if it breaks.

One of the rear KONIS adjustable knob is stuck on full stiff and they are sending me a new one.

Would it be ideal to set the rear shocks to full soft???
That I couldnt tell ya. Someone thats using those could though.

I have a feeling being lowered is hurting me.
Not really, as long as your pinion angle & LCAs are adjusted where they should. My car is lowered too & the only problem I have is our local track has poor track prep.

What i fail to understand is the mph of 111??? Thats why im thinking its a happy dynojet. Im running at Sacramento Raceway, i dont think the DA is that horrible.

Thank you all for the input so far.

That reading could be slightly high but it sounds like its in the ballpark of where it should be. I had the same problem you did after my cam install, trapping 111 but my times were a lil better, 12.5s & questioning the tune & if the cam was lined up where it should be. The thing is, you really gotta drive the car hard, take it to the redline if its 6200-6400 or whatever it is without lifting your foot off the gas & shifting as fast as you can & you will see an improvement.

BlackScreaminMachine
06-20-2012, 06:39 AM
3 wheel gangsta??

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqF4IWcT9VDupI66rz1e9OV2pTvRbHx Z7A-buW4YgYV7VSLI1GMQ

RedRocketZ28
06-20-2012, 06:56 AM
Don't feel too bad. My best in my cam only 2000 SS (heavy car with leather, no weight reduction and aftermarket ZR1 rims) was a 12.8 @ 113 on Sumitomo's. My car put down 387/384. Other cars on the same dyno ran about what the numbers said as well.

I was disappointed in the car, but sold it before I could install 4.10's and get a decent tire out back. I do know that car did well against others from a roll, so the power had to be there. I just lacked getting the car out of the hole at the track without spinning too much. Plus the DA wasn't the greatest when I ran.

I am willing to bet your car has more in it.

BlackScreaminMachine
06-20-2012, 06:57 AM
Just throwing it out there, when you add a cam almost all DR cars turn into a "on/off" switch when it comes to launching at the track. Stock cars (with bolt ons) can get away with a drag radial since they dont make any real power. But add a cam and a tune and its a different story.

jthunderz28
06-20-2012, 04:34 PM
DA has nothing do to with how suspension works, if anything the power it will not make will only help the situation. Take a car that can barely get off the line in 5000 da and throw same car on same track with -2000 and it likely will just be worse.

M6 cars, as a general statement never live up to the expectation when it comes to drag strip performance. You can spend ALOT of money, putting a bulletproof driveline and the best suspension under it but the trans, the non existant ability to be consistant and the fact that you will be breaking them, whether it be going thru clutches, breaking the trans, or some other driveline part are just a lost cause.

If, you want to drag race with a stick car, a gforce or liberty trans, and a slipper style clutch is the only way to go. Be ready to spend some money, and you won't be driving it on the street with said clutch, as that will eat it up FAST.

Is what it is, that's the truth of it. Accept it, and live with what the car's doing, or spend the money to change it. Really the only options.

I get all that...but a 6 speed m6 car with 390 rwhp should at least trap higher than 111. So wanted to gauge thoughts/ opinion on personal experience.

I get that about building up for the track for optimal results.

A guy i know has an 01 m6 ws6 with headers and boltons untuned and he traps 112 and has gone a best of 12.4 witha 60 ft of 1.8 i believe.

badfbodyz
06-20-2012, 04:45 PM
While i do agree with the above statement somewhat, i think you are failing to understand that he isnt looking to break into the 10s or anything like that. He is looking for low 12s or a high 11. And yes there are PLENTY of 6 speed cars running those times. And some even in the tens. This is WITHOUT spending thousands on a transmission. Just need to buy a better clutch. His car does have the ability to run great times without switching to an auto trans. Im sure that he enjoys driving his car on the streets just like many others.

flintwrench69
06-20-2012, 08:43 PM
While i do agree with the above statement somewhat, i think you are failing to understand that he isnt looking to break into the 10s or anything like that. He is looking for low 12s or a high 11. And yes there are PLENTY of 6 speed cars running those times. And some even in the tens. This is WITHOUT spending thousands on a transmission. Just need to buy a better clutch. His car does have the ability to run great times without switching to an auto trans. Im sure that he enjoys driving his car on the streets just like many others.
The LS7 clutch will work fine, especially since its only a few months old. Its not a level 3 but it will handle 390 whp. Promise. Been running the LS7 since 2008. It held up well last season & still working after plenty of 5k+ launches. I went with a level 3 when I replaced the bellhousing while I was in there this year. It is still in good shape though, I expected a lot worse when I pulled it apart. The OP just needs the driver mod.

And there's nothing wrong with driving it on the street and enjoying it.. that's what the cars are meant for.

BUt, if you want a time slip, you have to drive it like you hate it, stole it and don't care about it. Just powershifting the car will up the mph into the 115 mph range I'd bet.

This is true.

But, 125K on a stock tranny, kiss it goodbye. It's going to break. Don't be fooled..... most if not all the cars you see that are running the #'s that you are aiming for, are driving the cars in a way that is going to do damage. 10 bolt, it's done for sure driving it like you have to in order to get the timeslips you're after. Those fail at stock power with any kind of tire on it. put 390 rw to it and it's 100% done.
10 bolts are weak but if you slip the clutch on launch it will & can last. A lot of people break their 10 bolts because they do dumb shit like high rpm dumps & not addressing the wheelhop issue.

Transmissions won't like it either.. power shifting the car is going to really put a beating on the driveline... I'd guess that one power shifted 1/4 mile pass is like 10 thousland miles of driving normally.
So why is this any different than racing with a stock A4? I have more faith in a stock M6 handling the abuse. It doesnt matter what trans your using, if it breaks be prepared to upgrading if you wanna race it.

OP, drive it like you are trying to break it. Leave at 5000 rpm, ride the clutch out if you have to, you will get that one hail mary pass if that's what your'e after. Just be ready to call a tow truck.

jthunderz28
06-20-2012, 10:01 PM
And there's nothing wrong with driving it on the street and enjoying it.. that's what the cars are meant for.

BUt, if you want a time slip, you have to drive it like you hate it, stole it and don't care about it. Just powershifting the car will up the mph into the 115 mph range I'd bet.

But, 125K on a stock tranny, kiss it goodbye. It's going to break. Don't be fooled..... most if not all the cars you see that are running the #'s that you are aiming for, are driving the cars in a way that is going to do damage. 10 bolt, it's done for sure driving it like you have to in order to get the timeslips you're after. Those fail at stock power with any kind of tire on it. put 390 rw to it and it's 100% done. Transmissions won't like it either.. power shifting the car is going to really put a beating on the driveline... I'd guess that one power shifted 1/4 mile pass is like 10 thousland miles of driving normally.

OP, drive it like you are trying to break it. Leave at 5000 rpm, ride the clutch out if you have to, you will get that one hail mary pass if that's what your'e after. Just be ready to call a tow truck.

I thought the T-56 was bulletproof? Unless you start throwing gobs of power at it, isn't it one of the stronger points of our cars?

jthunderz28
06-20-2012, 10:04 PM
While i do agree with the above statement somewhat, i think you are failing to understand that he isnt looking to break into the 10s or anything like that. He is looking for low 12s or a high 11. And yes there are PLENTY of 6 speed cars running those times. And some even in the tens. This is WITHOUT spending thousands on a transmission. Just need to buy a better clutch. His car does have the ability to run great times without switching to an auto trans. Im sure that he enjoys driving his car on the streets just like many others.

Exactly, I'm not trying to be John Force. It is my daily driver/weekend warrior. Just thought i'd be in the low 12's with a 1.9 60 ft at 390 rwhp. But trapping 111 after a 1.9 60 ft is not adding up.

tyler ovel
06-21-2012, 02:55 AM
not being an ass but the DRIVER MOD would be your best mod.... get more time in launching the car and get those shifts quicker.

I've seen multiple bolt-on 6 speed cars run 12.3s-12.4s with no suspension and the stock rear end.

Just throwing it out there, when you add a cam almost all DR cars turn into a "on/off" switch when it comes to launching at the track. Stock cars (with bolt ons) can get away with a drag radial since they dont make any real power. But add a cam and a tune and its a different story.

And there's nothing wrong with driving it on the street and enjoying it.. that's what the cars are meant for.

BUt, if you want a time slip, you have to drive it like you hate it, stole it and don't care about it. Just powershifting the car will up the mph into the 115 mph range I'd bet.

But, 125K on a stock tranny, kiss it goodbye. It's going to break. Don't be fooled..... most if not all the cars you see that are running the #'s that you are aiming for, are driving the cars in a way that is going to do damage. 10 bolt, it's done for sure driving it like you have to in order to get the timeslips you're after. Those fail at stock power with any kind of tire on it. put 390 rw to it and it's 100% done. Transmissions won't like it either.. power shifting the car is going to really put a beating on the driveline... I'd guess that one power shifted 1/4 mile pass is like 10 thousland miles of driving normally.

OP, drive it like you are trying to break it. Leave at 5000 rpm, ride the clutch out if you have to, you will get that one hail mary pass if that's what your'e after. Just be ready to call a tow truck.

All of this right here.

First , get some line lock or let me drive your car with you in the passenger seat to show you how to do a proper foot brake burn out cuz you ask like 10 different people every time your out there " how do I do a burn out ?" Lol

Second , get some tires and a rearend that can hold up better than the 10 bolt and drive it like you stole it!!! Launch thay fucker and shift it at 6700 on your tack to account for human reaction with shifting a six speed.

Your 60 foot and you driving is killing your time.

Third, get a beater to drive everyday and stop putting miles and that nice bird. Will allow you drive it like you stole it and not have to worry about how you will get to work the next morning

you know where to find me if you need more of the same advice hahaha

clonedws6
06-21-2012, 03:26 AM
Well the tachs usually read slow so......

BlackScreaminMachine
06-21-2012, 08:19 AM
Love my shift light got it in that perfect spot. JL's idea and works killer.

tyler ovel
06-21-2012, 08:44 AM
Yea an autometer tach is a better reading than stock and is ideal but I had my efi live in the car data logging my runs the past couple of times and when I shift at 6700rpm on my stock tach, efi live says that my car is shifting at around 6400.

Plus I just think after market tachs on a car that Is hitting high 12's or 11's just looks like those imports that try to much at the track hahaha

Old Buzzard
06-21-2012, 09:39 AM
"But trapping 111 after a 1.9 60 ft is not adding up."

Have you data logged any of the runs?? If not, how do you know you have an optimum tune in it? Since MPH is usually a function of Hp, you may be leaving some on the table...Thus the low mph...

jthunderz28
06-22-2012, 11:04 AM
All of this right here.

First , get some line lock or let me drive your car with you in the passenger seat to show you how to do a proper foot brake burn out cuz you ask like 10 different people every time your out there " how do I do a burn out ?" Lol

Second , get some tires and a rearend that can hold up better than the 10 bolt and drive it like you stole it!!! Launch thay fucker and shift it at 6700 on your tack to account for human reaction with shifting a six speed.

Your 60 foot and you driving is killing your time.

Third, get a beater to drive everyday and stop putting miles and that nice bird. Will allow you drive it like you stole it and not have to worry about how you will get to work the next morning

you know where to find me if you need more of the same advice hahaha

Lol, tyler i didnt know you and Matt count as 10 people.
Yup line lock will be my next mod for sure. I'll admit i'm not the best driver, but i have been getting better every time i'm out there.

I got my 60 ft down to 1.9 on the nittos on a wednesday night at Sac. Thats a small victory for me. Practicr practice practice is what it comes down to.

And yes i know where to find you :)

tyler ovel
06-22-2012, 12:34 PM
Lol, tyler i didnt know you and Matt count as 10 people.
Yup line lock will be my next mod for sure. I'll admit i'm not the best driver, but i have been getting better every time i'm out there.

I got my 60 ft down to 1.9 on the nittos on a wednesday night at Sac. Thats a small victory for me. Practicr practice practice is what it comes down to.

And yes i know where to find you :)

Me, Allen, matt,dwain, Teresa, and Austin. My bad that's six people haha close enough.

With the same tires you have , austin was hitting a 12.7 all day long with just long tubes with no tune last year, so there is still SOME improvement to be made with those tires.

You are getting better but there is still some more shit you can improve on to make your mph and times faster at the track.

tyler ovel
06-22-2012, 12:59 PM
Judging from the information that is now being presented the operator is likley the route cause to the mph. I have seen cars pick up .3 and 4.5 mph just from a driver swap.. and there was no real huge weight change from one to the other, fwiw.

Stick cars, need to be driven like you WANT to break it. Any other way, and it's not going to run. Gas pedal can NOT, come off the floor from the time you leave until you're thru the traps. You lift off it once you lose over a mph every time.

Yup this all the truth. I picked up 3 mph by watchimg my data logs and saw that when i launched I wasnt in the gas 100%

jthunderz28
06-28-2012, 01:07 AM
New best tonight 12.5 at 111 with a 2.0 60 ft.

Koni finally sent me a replacement under warrant to replace the damaged shock that threw off my launch geometry being stuck on full stiff.

Adjusted the rear Koni stocks to 2 sweeps away from full soft.
Also launched at 4k instead of 3k.

Still work to be done, but felt good to get out of the 12.8 @ 111 after about 35 runs prior.

jthunderz28
06-28-2012, 11:38 AM
Mph is still garbage. Stop taking your foot off the gas during shifts, all the gains you just saw was from fixing the suspension not your driving..... If your foot comes off the gas even once during a run you're screwed.

I agree. Shift light will help too. I think I'm shifting just a tad bit early and leaving power on the table.
I usually shift around 6100 trying not to hit the limiter.

Here is the before and after dyno chart from cam only, then after I added headers.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/fearls1/CIMG1719.jpg

superGTO
06-28-2012, 02:59 PM
It just takes a while to get the learning curve down.

adamantium
06-28-2012, 03:08 PM
Why are you shifting before 6100? i shift there in my Lid only car... Ive seen bolt on cars trap 115 without power shifting... I highly doubt you will pick up THAT much MPH by powershifting, unless you shift slow as hell. Even if you did i highly doubt a 4mph increase would happen.


Edit: why not try raising the limiter so you dont fall to low in your powerband while shifting? just because your power peaks at 6250 doesn't mean you should shift there.

tyler ovel
06-29-2012, 01:06 AM
He improved his burnout tremendously and did launch it at a higher rpm and adjusted his shocks. His shifts sounded good and like he was in it to win it but I didn't know that you where shifting at 6100 rpm.

That's gona be part of your problem right there. I take mine all the way up to 6800-6900 when I shift do to the fact that the stock tack is off and human reaction. My peak horse is at 6400 rpm. When I look at my data logs after each run , I see that even though my car tach says 6900, efi live says that I usually and shifting at 6450 rpm.

What is your rev limit at? Mines at like 7

If I where you I would at least take it up to 6500-6600 before you shift and see what that will do

And be careful launching at 4k on a stock rearend. When was the last time your rearend fluid was changed ? That could be something to think about. I got a gear shop if you need it done.

lq9transam
06-29-2012, 01:22 AM
I have 386 hp convertible 2002 runnin 12:10

tyler ovel
06-29-2012, 01:44 AM
I have 386 hp convertible 2002 runnin 12:10

Well good for you. Want a high five or something? Im not trying to be a Dick bro but he was asking for advice and I thought that is what a forum is for, not to just pipe in and say " hey guys look at me, hey"

Ls1~Lover
06-29-2012, 01:55 AM
Isnt Sac's mph off alittle? Or did they fix it?

tyler ovel
06-29-2012, 02:19 AM
Isnt Sac's mph off alittle? Or did they fix it?

I don't know. They have been messing with the clocks for awhile. I here tjat they are fixed now, but I wana run some where else to check for myself

mkvamso
06-29-2012, 02:44 AM
Don't feel too bad. My best in my cam only 2000 SS (heavy car with leather, no weight reduction and aftermarket ZR1 rims) was a 12.8 @ 113 on Sumitomo's. My car put down 387/384. Other cars on the same dyno ran about what the numbers said as well.

I was disappointed in the car, but sold it before I could install 4.10's and get a decent tire out back. I do know that car did well against others from a roll, so the power had to be there. I just lacked getting the car out of the hole at the track without spinning too much. Plus the DA wasn't the greatest when I ran.

I am willing to bet your car has more in it.

Brandon has taken it to the track a cpl times and it trapped higher than that with the same tune, still couldn't get it to 60 though and it has radials now

jthunderz28
06-29-2012, 07:39 PM
He improved his burnout tremendously and did launch it at a higher rpm and adjusted his shocks. His shifts sounded good and like he was in it to win it but I didn't know that you where shifting at 6100 rpm.

That's gona be part of your problem right there. I take mine all the way up to 6800-6900 when I shift do to the fact that the stock tack is off and human reaction. My peak horse is at 6400 rpm. When I look at my data logs after each run , I see that even though my car tach says 6900, efi live says that I usually and shifting at 6450 rpm.

What is your rev limit at? Mines at like 7

If I where you I would at least take it up to 6500-6600 before you shift and see what that will do

And be careful launching at 4k on a stock rearend. When was the last time your rearend fluid was changed ? That could be something to think about. I got a gear shop if you need it done.

I'm hitting the limiter at about 6200. So adjusting that higher to compliment the powerband sounds like the way to go.

Changed the rear fluid like 2 months ago at Forcefed and no metal shavings in site. Everything looked real clean in there. I think I'm gonna change it again though before I head out to the track again.

And thanks again for your help out there Tyler, it feels good to see dramatic progress with just a couple tweaks.

Zero4488
06-30-2012, 01:45 PM
Dyno numbers are useless...I went 12.3 with 347hp with a full weight stick car with stock suspension on an 18" drag radial with 4.11's in a 10 bolt...get some seat time and a tire and try again...