Automotive News, Media & Press - Edmunds Track-Test - 2012 Camaro ZL1 vs 2013 Mustang GT500

The Brawny Mustang Takes on the Brainy Camaro

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By Mike Monticello, Road Test Editor | Published Jun 25, 2012

"This is stupid."

"I'm going to die for sure."

"Is this really a Chevy?"

Those are the thoughts that go through your mind when you floor the 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 through a turn on a racetrack. But just then, the Camaro's Performance Traction Management (PTM) system works its magic, allowing a small amount of slip on corner exit while emitting an audible stutter that lets you know it has all that torque under control. Once you trust it, the Camaro becomes a track weapon that you have to experience to believe.

The 2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 delivers its own special kind of death threats. Its 662 horsepower will launch you into corners so fast that a space shuttle's worth of computers wouldn't be able to save you. It demands respect and requires skill to contain, but if you deliver both it will catapult you from corner to corner like a Top Fuel dragster that grew some real front wheels.

Why Take Them to the Track?

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If you've been following this battle on Inside Line, then you know the Shelby drop-kicked the ZL1 right off the dyno, producing a whopping 98 more horsepower than the Bowtie Boys at its rear wheels.

In our instrumented testing, the Mustang (base price $54,995) was the drag strip king, while the Camaro (base price $56,295) woke up from its nap and took the handling segments. Then we took these two beasts on our favorite mountain road, where the ZL1 simply "dropped trou" on the Shelby, as Senior Editor Josh Jacquot so eloquently put it.

So what happens when these two symbols of hairy-chested Americana square up mirror-to-mirror on a racetrack? Well, tires get vaporized, brake rotors burn red and the real personality of each car becomes crystal-clear. That's why we spent a day lapping the Streets of Willow in these two frighteningly powerful pony cars. Here's what we learned.

2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1

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Best Lap: 1:25.57

The ZL1 is a car in which you feel instantly comfortable. You can start pounding around with impunity from the first sighting lap. Why? For one, its electric-assist steering is superb, with excellent feel and proper weighting. Combine that with those wide tires and magnetic dampers and this car has plenty of grip, always going exactly where you point it and staying planted.

The brakes didn't disappoint either, with a firm pedal that remained that way throughout our hot lapping. There's also less dive and more control when entering turns quickly compared to the Mustang that gives you the confidence to mash on the Camaro's brakes at the last second.

The ZL1's shifter is also superb. Not just because of its sexy suede covering, but because the short lever slides precisely and easily into the next gear every time, unlike the Shelby's linkage which is at times balky and requires a heavier hand. This is especially important for the Camaro driver, because its shorter gearing requires more shifting per lap than the Mustang.

And then there's PTM. We ran the Camaro in its most serious mode, PTM-5, which turns the stability system off and puts traction control into Race setting. When proper grip is available, and on our hot day in the desert it certainly was, you can literally wood the throttle like a goon at, or just before, corner apex. It's unnatural at first, and your brain tells you that it's not going to work. But just when you're about to give up, it delivers the perfect amount of slip out of a corner and you feel like a hero. From that point on, the Camaro becomes your best friend.

It's still a Camaro, though, so it has some faults. It struggled mightily with understeer through the final skid pad turn leading onto Willow's front straight. No amount of throttle adjustments would cure this, and there's not a thing PTM can do about understeer.

The ZL1 could also use a better pair of front seats, as the wide buckets — which are thoroughly comfortable — just don't have the lateral support of the Shelby's optional Recaros.

2013 Ford Shelby GT500

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Best lap: 1:24.92

All it took was one lap around Streets of Willow in the Shelby GT500 and we understood why Ford officials conducted the initial press drives with the traction control system on. This thing is a wild ride. An edge-of-your-seat, check-the-life-insurance, remember-your-kids kind of ride that is unmatched in the pony car world.

While the Shelby has significantly more power than the ZL1, it also has skinnier tires and less sophisticated chassis, damper and traction control systems. Its engine may be ahead of the Camaro's, but everything else is a bit behind.

And because Ford's AdvanceTrac Sport setting affects the stability control system, unlike Chevy's PTM-5, the system is more restrictive (and slower) than driving with everything off. So we turned everything off. And tried to hold on.

You're a lot busier behind the wheel in the Mustang, constantly controlling throttle-on oversteer as the engine's prodigious power dominates. Getting sideways is the slow way around a track, but the Mustang's throttle-steering talents did help it rotate better through the tighter turns.

The Mustang's steering offers less feedback than the Camaro and the chassis gets upset more easily by quick transitions, with more body roll and a looser tail. It's a chore to keep the Mustang on the track, but it's more fun if you're just looking for the most slides per mile.

More than anything, the ferocity with which the Shelby rockets and bellows down the straights puts it in a different world than the Camaro. And for some, the utter ground-pounding speed of the Shelby is worth its lack of precision.

What Do the Numbers Say?

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Looking at the data from our VBOX timing system, several things come to light. The most obvious is the Mustang's speed advantage when the track turns straight. Its maximum velocity was more than 5 mph higher than the Camaro on the fastest part of the track — the back straight before a blind chicane.

Possibly because the Camaro was going slower but also because it's more precise, we held our speed longer into that chicane, and the lack of confidence in the Mustang made it 7 mph slower at the hard, downhill off-camber left-hander that follows.

Through the skid pad turn that leads onto the front straight, the GT500's ability to steer with the throttle helped. But while the GT500 carried a brilliant slide off the skid pad onto the straight, Chevy's PTM system put the power down and pushed the Camaro faster onto the straight, with a 2-mph advantage at start/finish before being gobbled up by the GT500 prior to Turn 1.

The data also showed how much more consistent our lines and lap times were with the Camaro. In contrast, the Mustang's laps were filled with lots of throttle and steering adjustments, not to mention plenty of slides.

The Winner

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So which is the better track car? Without question, it's the 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1.

Sure, it's possible to throw down a golden lap in the Mustang if you get everything right, but duplicating that time is never easy. And you'll be working far harder and more over the limit in the Shelby.

The Camaro ZL1 can turn consistent fast laps all day. It's infinitely more precise and capable, and genuinely rewarding in its engineering goodness. The fact that it was only about a half second off the Shelby's best time despite a huge power deficit speaks volumes.

The ZL1 has taken pony cars to a new level of handling and on-track composure that, frankly, we didn't think was possible. It makes the Camaro ZL1 the new definition of American Badassery. One that's really not bad at all.

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Both cars look awesome, very cool to see this. Back in the 80's or 90's could you ever imagine a Mustang or Camaro would lap Willow this fast? That's nuts. I'd be interested to see how these two cars stack up to other cars in their price range ($55-56,000). BTW, where's dodge? Challenger just to chunky to keep up?

blueknight.....there was a challenger in the continental tire challenge for a few races last season. it did pretty well in the races it was in, but i presume them to have been a private team, as they seemed to run out of money........

now as for them making a street car........

Interesting. 7/10 of a second per lap difference and it seems you have to be a real hero to pull off those times whereas the Camaro is easily consistent.

not a real hero....just a real driver.

So, the ZL1 is consistently slower than the GT500's fastest time. Cool.

So, the ZL1 is consistently slower than the GT500's fastest time. Cool.

now that you put it that way.....it would've been somewhat interesting if they'd have posted more than just a single lap time for each car.

presuming they did at least 4 or 5 laps in each, i'd be interested in seeing each lap time for each car.

So, the ZL1 is consistently slower than the GT500's fastest time. Cool.

whoops.....double post

To see a muscle car that badass looking with power to back it up, and able to take turns without a second thought..is pretty damn impressive! I thought the Shelby was way above the ZL1 but I'm gaining more and more respect for the zl1 as more reviews come in. Plus I think it looks better, and I was never much of a fan of the new body style, I think due to the weight, but something about the zl1 looks just right.

whoops.....double post

Yeah he does that and normally he's just trolling anyways so ignore him.:D

amazing how more people like a zl1 better.

whats even amazing is the crybabies it brings out too. :D


what id like is gt500 power with zl1 handling. :chug:

To see a muscle car that badass looking with power to back it up, and able to take turns without a second thought..is pretty damn impressive! I thought the Shelby was way above the ZL1 but I'm gaining more and more respect for the zl1 as more reviews come in. Plus I think it looks better, and I was never much of a fan of the new body style, I think due to the weight, but something about the zl1 looks just right.

this current camaro is (in my humble opinion) the first good looking camaro since 1969

amazing how more people like a zl1 better.

whats even amazing is the crybabies it brings out too. :D


what id like is gt500 power with zl1 handling. :chug:

what i'd like is to be able to afford to put one of each in my garage. and then have a boss302ls for a daily driver. :devil:

Wait, the GT500 had a better time and its a "hero run"? Wasnt it the same driver, same day? Last I checked, the car that passes the finish line first wins the race. Regardless, the SRA appears to do just fine in this test. Comfort seems to be huge in reviews as well. Not trying to take anything away from the Z, but c'mon.

Overall: 1 to 1.

what i'd like is to be able to afford to put one of each in my garage. and then have a boss302ls for a daily driver. :devil:

What would be killer is a 600+hp Boss with mag ride and wide sticky tires (~275 front/~315 rear) that tips the scales at 3300-3400lbs soaking wet with a 50/50 weight split or damn near it :devil:

What would be killer is a 600+hp Boss with mag ride and wide sticky tires (~275 front/~315 rear) that tips the scales at 3300-3400lbs soaking wet with a 50/50 weight split or damn near it :devil:
i think i just had a "crisis" reading that........

Wait, the GT500 had a better time and its a "hero run"? Wasnt it the same driver, same day? Last I checked, the car that passes the finish line first wins the race. Regardless, the SRA appears to do just fine in this test. Comfort seems to be huge in reviews as well. Not trying to take anything away from the Z, but c'mon.

Overall: 1 to 1.

i could be wrong here.....but i get the impression that the very younger crowd wants to go fast easy, whereas most of us older folks like to "earn" our going fast, which means it's not easy. if this is the case, then chevy's nailed it dead on with the zl1. if it's not, then it's gonna backfire at em soon.

this current camaro is (in my humble opinion) the first good looking camaro since 1969

I agree but as a child of the 80s the 3rd gen will always have a special place in my heart.

Wait, the GT500 had a better time and its a "hero run"? Wasnt it the same driver, same day? Last I checked, the car that passes the finish line first wins the race.

Not easily attainable or consistent performance. That's like saying they run 11.00 flat and all you see in person is people getting 12s out of them.

I agree but as a child of the 80s the 3rd gen will always have a special place in my heart.

i know quite a few younger people that love those 80's camaros. i don't really think they're ugly....

What would be killer is a 600+hp Boss with mag ride and wide sticky tires (~275 front/~315 rear) that tips the scales at 3300-3400lbs soaking wet with a 50/50 weight split or damn near it :devil:

Hell if that's the case give a a 3400 pound zl1....:chug:

This sounds like what a lot of people here have been saying for a while now...the GT500 is the more capable car, the ZL1 is more comfortable and easier to drive.

what id like is gt500 power with zl1 handling. :chug::werd: :nod:

Not easily attainable or consistent performance. That's like saying they run 11.00 flat and all you see in person is people getting 12s out of them.

I see what you mean. If this seems to be the consensus, then why arent there multi lap tests? Wouldnt 3-4 laps tell the true story? :)

Continue finding excuses after you lose a track race = Fail

Continue finding excuses after you lose a track race = Fail

didn't the shelby beat the zl at willow by more than it lost the other road course?

in all honesty, when a writer comes out and chooses the slower car as the winner, it's like saying that the person that thinks 1+1=potato is almost as smart as Einstein.

oh yea....it sounds somewhat biased too.

Official Comparison=ZL1 Camaro-2 Mustang GT500-0

Now, that's some Grade A nuthugging right there.

this current camaro is (in my humble opinion) the first good looking camaro since 1969

I will say the same for the Mustang, but only the Boss 302. It is the first nice Mustang I can stand looking at since 1969

And since you hate on Camaros so much, do you really not like the 70 -73's? Most non-brand loyal guys do appreciate those cars as well.

Oh and I would take an IROC over any 5.0 from the 80's, and I own a fourth gen so call me a fanboy and carry on, lol!

No seriously, I really like the new Boss, and this GT500 delivers in every aspect, even if you have to work harder for it. So it's harder to launch and go fast around a track...that makes it more rewarding when you accomplish the quick times. The GT500 is the big pony car for the enthusiasts, not the everyday "I wanna look cool" posers who won't even change their own air filter.

I respect the opinion of the writers, but as enthusiasts on this board, there is no way we can agree with them. The performance of the GT500 simply outshines the ZL1. ZL1 is respectable and due some credit. But we all know who the clear winner is at this point in the battle, congrats to Ford for giving us an amazing car :cheers:

I will say the same for the Mustang, but only the Boss 302. It is the first nice Mustang I can stand looking at since 1969

And since you hate on Camaros so much, do you really not like the 70 -73's? Most non-brand loyal guys do appreciate those cars as well.

Oh and I would take an IROC over any 5.0 from the 80's, and I own a fourth gen so call me a fanboy and carry on, lol!

No seriously, I really like the new Boss, and this GT500 delivers in every aspect, even if you have to work harder for it. So it's harder to launch and go fast around a track...that makes it more rewarding when you accomplish the quick times. The GT500 is the big pony car for the enthusiasts, not the everyday "I wanna look cool" posers who won't even change their own air filter.

I respect the opinion of the writers, but as enthusiasts on this board, there is no way we can agree with them. The performance of the GT500 simply outshines the ZL1. ZL1 is respectable and due some credit. But we all know who the clear winner is at this point in the battle, congrats to Ford for giving us an amazing car :cheers:


i don't hate on camaros. you may want to note i own one.

i don't dislike the 70's camaros, i just don't care for them. my brother had a 70? i think it was, split bumper camaro for a bit. when he told me he was selling it, i told him he was being somewhat stupid, and should keep it. i couldn't get down to florida before he sold it, otherwise i'd have bought it, due to the relative rarity of those.
the 80's camaros/firebirds i just never liked the looks of. working on them and seeing all of their faults didn't help, but then ford was about the same. my 89 that i had in my sig for a bit, i liked only 'cause it let me go fast in relative comfort. it was always fun to drive, and i liked the paint combination that the previous owner had used on it. i added the cowl hood.

the 4th gen camaros, rate the same as the 70's camaros....i don't dislike them.....i just don't care for them much. i do however think that cowl hoods on those destroy the lines.

as for mustangs......i never cared for the 71-73 mustangs. the 70 mustang was essentially the same as a 69. the pinto-stangs weren't horrible looking, but their interiors sucked big time, and they were slow(like pretty much everyting from the 70's)
the fox mustangs were kind of ugly, but at the same time had a "don't fuck with me" look to them. sorta. their quality was slightly better than the camaros of the era.
the 90's mustangs, right up till 03, were in my humble opinion(again) the absolute ugliest mustangs ever built. i can't honestly believe that they ever outsold the camaro in that era.
these new mustangs are just fucking sexy to me. everything about them. i've actually got a boss302 airdam, and splitter to install on my gt, but it's pissing me off that i have to remove the entire front fascia in order to do this.

I see what you mean. If this seems to be the consensus, then why arent there multi lap tests? Wouldnt 3-4 laps tell the true story? :)

Individual lap times and total time over a 10 lap segment would. If one is harder to drive you will see less consistent lap times, especially as the tires and brakes fade. That would cut out the statistical noise.

it would be fairly interesting to compare the zl1 to an ss too. we know the zl will trash it, but it'd be interesting to see how it drives on a road course compared to a regular camaro. that would give us a definite answer as to the suspension.

it would be fairly interesting to compare the zl1 to an ss too. we know the zl will trash it, but it'd be interesting to see how it drives on a road course compared to a regular camaro. that would give us a definite answer as to the suspension.

Flame suit on/

2010 Camaro SS Ring time 8:20
2012 Camaro ZL1 Ring time 7:41.27

I am going to reach way out for a limb, and say significantly better.

Flame suit on/

2010 Camaro SS Ring time 8:20
2012 Camaro ZL1 Ring time 7:41.27

I am going to reach way out for a limb, and say significantly better.

NAH.....i ain't gonna flame anyone on this subject.

i hadn't realized that they ran an ss over at the ring. i was more thinking since they're starting to run the zl at some tracks here, run them both. just as if they were comparing to the mustang. see if the suspension in the zl is that much better than the suspension in the ss, by getting these same guys opinions on the zl vs the ss. it'd be fairly interesting.

the zl's power could be the sole contributor to the faster ring time, as there's still plenty of rumors of the shelby running a bit quicker over there......i'd like to see a video though, in order to believe it.

Individual lap times and total time over a 10 lap segment would. If one is harder to drive you will see less consistent lap times, especially as the tires and brakes fade. That would cut out the statistical noise.

Makes sense. I dont see this happening with mag drivers unfortunately. :bang:

Makes sense. I dont see this happening with mag drivers unfortunately. :bang:

so do like what Motor Trend did with their best drivers car segment a few years ago. they put Randy Pobst in the hot seat to get a real feel of what a pro driver thought of the cars.

Now, that's some Grade A nuthugging right there.

No just there to remind guys like you that constantly try to make the ZL1 out as garbage that there's more to a car then straight line speed. Plus it's just stating the facts sorry if you don't like the outcome but it is what it is.

The interesting thing is that when Edmunds tested all the versions of the mustang a year or two ago they got nearly the same time out of a 2011 GT500 as they did the ZL1.

I agree but as a child of the 80s the 3rd gen will always have a special place in my heart.

not mine and i owned one. it handled,braked excellent at that time and had descent power. i had a 5.7. it squeaked,rattled and fell apart quicker than i could fix it. it didnt help i beat the crap out of it but the paint was shitty too.


ill never own another.

No just there to remind guys like you that constantly try to make the ZL1 out as garbage that there's more to a car then straight line speed. Plus it's just stating the facts sorry if you don't like the outcome but it is what it is.

You must have forgot about power numbers, 1/4 mile numbers, available options and the FACT that the GT500 ran the fastest lap time during the above test.

You must have forgot about power numbers, 1/4 mile numbers, available options and the FACT that the GT500 ran the fastest lap time during the above test.

What does that have to do with my sig? Are you really that jaded by the blue over that you cannot accept the ZL1 as a great car because contrary to your believes I've always spoke highly about the ZL1 and the GT500 so how does calling me out on my sig make me a fanboy?

Car and Driver tests came out:

Basic Stats

500:ZL1
1/4 - 11.8@125:12.3@118
Top speed - 189:181
70-0 - 155ft:151ft
Skid - 1.0:.99

Grattan Raceway 2.2mi
Both 1:30.2


They still gave the win to the ZL1... :confused:

a 118 trap for a zl1 is respectable.

118 is definitely better

118 is definitely better

though i remember predicting a 120mph trap for this car.

though i remember predicting a 120mph trap for this car.

Cooler weather should do it. The thing about this was they dynod the GT500 at 566rwhp. That is over 30rwhp lower than any other GT500 Ive seen, and Ive seen about 5-6. The ZL1 put down ~508rwhp.

Cooler weather should do it. The thing about this was they dynod the GT500 at 566rwhp. That is over 30rwhp lower than any other GT500 Ive seen, and Ive seen about 5-6. The ZL1 put down ~508rwhp.

That seems odd. I've only seen a couple GT500s under 600whp, while the ZL1 number is on the high side of what they are dynoing at.

The 2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 delivers its own special kind of death threats. Its 662 horsepower will launch you into corners so fast that a space shuttle's worth of computers wouldn't be able to save you....

This thing is a wild ride. An edge-of-your-seat, check-the-life-insurance, remember-your-kids kind of ride that is unmatched in the pony car world.

Perfect! If I had the money I'd take two. One to mod and beat the ever living hell out of and the other to daily drive. GT500 gets my vote! :devil:

2010 Camaro SS Ring time 8:20
2012 Camaro ZL1 Ring time 7:41.27Curious where the Camaro 1LE will land in that one. :burn:

Car and Driver tests came out:

Basic Stats

500:ZL1
1/4 - 11.8@125:12.3@118
Top speed - 189:181
70-0 - 155ft:151ft
Skid - 1.0:.99

Grattan Raceway 2.2mi
Both 1:30.2


They still gave the win to the ZL1... :confused:

Do you have a link? Also they have a video on youtube of them doing a 12.1@119 fwiw

Also does anyone else feel that it's odd that the GT500 is 7mph faster in the quarter yet it's only 8mph in there top speed run?

Curious where the Camaro 1LE will land in that one. :burn:

I say 8:10

Do you have a link? Also they have a video on youtube of them doing a 12.1@119 fwiw

Also does anyone else feel that it's odd that the GT500 is 7mph faster in the quarter yet it's only 8mph in there top speed run?

If you understood math, physics, and things like aerodynamics, it wouldn't seem odd at all.

What does that have to do with my sig? Are you really that jaded by the blue over that you cannot accept the ZL1 as a great car because contrary to your believes I've always spoke highly about the ZL1 and the GT500 so how does calling me out on my sig make me a fanboy?

If you can't see that yourself, it's a waste of my time to explain it to you.

Also, I never said the ZL1 wasn't a great car. I just say the GT500 is better in almost every category that is important in my book.

The guys at Top Gear have that magnetic leader board for a reason...to show what cars they have tested are the FASTEST around their track. I highly doubt they give 2 shits that an STI is "easier to drive" and more predictable than a ZR1.

Edmunds got a better lap time out of the GT500 than they did out of the ZL1. That's all that counts.

99.99 percent of stock ZL1/GT500 encounters will happen on the street and we all know what the outcome will be.

Do you have a link? Also they have a video on youtube of them doing a 12.1@119 fwiw

Also does anyone else feel that it's odd that the GT500 is 7mph faster in the quarter yet it's only 8mph in there top speed run?

yea, 'cause they didn't take the shelby to its top speed.

99.99 percent of stock ZL1/GT500 encounters will happen on the street and we all know what that outcome will result in.

Heated arguments based off of hard-copy and internet magazine articles where they said the ZL1 was clearly the better car, but wasn't?

Heated arguments based off of hard-copy and internet magazine articles where they said the ZL1 was clearly the better car, but wasn't?

Haha.:D

If you understood math, physics, and things like aerodynamics, it wouldn't seem odd at all.
Really then show me how a car the weighs 3-400 more with alot less power over comes all of that to only allow 1 mph increase after the 1320.
yea, 'cause they didn't take the shelby to its top speed.

Didn't say it was the cars actual top speed just that its odd that it was on able to gain 1 mph after the first 1320.

Really then show me how a car the weighs 3-400 more with alot less power over comes all of that to only allow 1 mph increase after the 1320.


Didn't say it was the cars actual top speed just that its odd that it was on able to gain 1 mph after the first 1320.

that's what i mean. we already know that the shelby at least hits 196.

Really then show me how a car the weighs 3-400 more with alot less power over comes all of that to only allow 1 mph increase after the 1320.

Aerodynamic drag increases as the square of speed, which tells us what?

Aerodynamic drag increases as the square of speed, which tells us what?

No no....you want to call out me as stupid prove that the ZL1 aero dynamic advantage is superior enough to over come its weight and lack of Hp!!!!

No no....you want to call out me as stupid prove that the ZL1 aero dynamic advantage is superior enough to over come its weight and lack of Hp!!!!

I'm not calling you stupid, but I do think your comment shows that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of how the world around you works - hence why I like giving you crap about being a magazine racer, since that's what prompted this question.

This isn't a GT500 vs. ZL1 thing, this goes for any car - if the aerodynamic drag of a car increases as the square of speed, it would tell you that it takes a lot more power just to go a little bit faster when you reach speeds well into the triple digits; speeds that are much faster than you would normally achieve in the quarter mile.

Making a direct correlation between trap speed in a quarter mile race and a vehicle's top speed just doesn't work. Want proof? Play around with this calculator, and notice how fast the power requirements go up once you start getting up there in speed, and also notice how little effect the vehicle's weight has on things:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php

i don't think weight would play much at those speeds, but i do think frontal area would play a large part.

I'm not calling you stupid, but I do think your comment shows that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of how the world around you works - hence why I like giving you crap about being a magazine racer, since that's what prompted this question.

This isn't a GT500 vs. ZL1 thing, this goes for any car - if the aerodynamic drag of a car increases as the square of speed, it would tell you that it takes a lot more power just to go a little bit faster when you reach speeds well into the triple digits; speeds that are much faster than you would normally achieve in the quarter mile.

Making a direct correlation between trap speed in a quarter mile race and a vehicle's top speed just doesn't work. Want proof? Play around with this calculator, and notice how fast the power requirements go up once you start getting up there in speed, and also notice how little effect the vehicle's weight has on things:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php
Like I said post some hard evidence of why the stang can only put 1mph on the zl1 after the quarter mile. We all know it takes more to go faster at higher speeds and I never implied it didn't but based of the Hp/weight difference between the two it would take a big aero dynamic advantage in the zl1's favor to stop the pull of the gt500 correct? So post up the results you get from little calculator and I hope it backs up all the trash talk you love to do.

If pointing out the facts makes me magazine racer so be it but your reaction and immature replies shows that your a little but hurt by the results.

Like I said post some hard evidence of why the stang can only put 1mph on the zl1 after the quarter mile. We all know it takes more to go faster at higher speeds and I never implied it didn't but based of the Hp/weight difference between the two it would take a big aero dynamic advantage in the zl1's favor to stop the pull of the gt500 correct? So post up the results you get from little calculator and I hope it backs up all the trash talk you love to do.

If pointing out the facts makes me magazine racer so be it but your reaction and immature replies shows that your a little but hurt by the results.

You mean these results:
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49/gruberap/summary.jpg
Im sure there is no "butthurt" going on except for your sig. BTW, shouldnt it be 4-0?

Like I said post some hard evidence of why the stang can only put 1mph on the zl1 after the quarter mile. We all know it takes more to go faster at higher speeds and I never implied it didn't but based of the Hp/weight difference between the two it would take a big aero dynamic advantage in the zl1's favor to stop the pull of the gt500 correct? So post up the results you get from little calculator and I hope it backs up all the trash talk you love to do.

If pointing out the facts makes me magazine racer so be it but your reaction and immature replies shows that your a little but hurt by the results.

Both cars are running over 65% of their total top speed by the 1/4 mile mark. Acceleration above those speeds starts to flatten out.

I still don't see your point here. This was a "top speed" test. Not a race from point A to point B. Acceleration past the 1/4 mile doesn't matter and should not be factored in given both cars had enough track to actually reach their true top speed. Who's to say the GT500 didn't reach 181mph (the ZL1's tested top speed) 1/2 a mile before the ZL1 got there?

Your (notice I used the correct "your") argument sucks.

You mean these results:
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49/gruberap/summary.jpg
Im sure there is no "butthurt" going on except for your sig. BTW, shouldnt it be 4-0?

based on that chart, how is it anyone is declaring the zl the winner again?

Like I said post some hard evidence of why the stang can only put 1mph on the zl1 after the quarter mile. We all know it takes more to go faster at higher speeds and I never implied it didn't but based of the Hp/weight difference between the two it would take a big aero dynamic advantage in the zl1's favor to stop the pull of the gt500 correct? So post up the results you get from little calculator and I hope it backs up all the trash talk you love to do.

If pointing out the facts makes me magazine racer so be it but your reaction and immature replies shows that your a little but hurt by the results.

The hard evidence is physics...you know, the laws that govern the universe and this rock we live on. It will require you to pick up a book instead of a magazine if you want to understand, but it might be worth your time. I tried to make it easy for you by giving you a link to an online calculator you could play with, but the best you can do is ask me to post up the results I get by using it?

If you knew it takes more to go faster at higher speeds, then why did you even bring it up as something that seemed suspect?

And your "but hurt" comment (and butt is spelled with two t's when you are using it in that manner) makes any assessment of my maturity irrelevant. You know, the whole "pot meet kettle" thing.

based on that chart, how is it anyone is declaring the zl the winner again?

I personally wouldn't declare the ZL1 a winner but the fact it performs dam close to the GT500 with that much more weight and less power says quite a bit about the suspension in that car. I can only imagine the difference if they took the car and shed off 200lbs I wouldn't be shocked to see it beating the GT500 then even with its less power.

the zl's power could be the sole contributor to the faster ring time, as there's still plenty of rumors of the shelby running a bit quicker over there......i'd like to see a video though, in order to believe it.

Doubtful. As I have tried to note repeadetdly in these road course discussions corner speed relates to straightaway speed. If you are already at a higher speed when you exit, compared to a car with a horsepower advantage, they car with the slower car still has to outaccelerate you to match your speed before it would begin to gain ground. If that delta is high enough, the higher power vehicle may not have the time to make up the ground in a given straightaway. In the comparison of the ZL1 to SS, i would be willing to wager that the only time they shared a spped on any segment of the track was when they were sitting still. The ZL1 would have ad vantages in entry, corner, exit, and straightaway speed.

FYI - weight is effectively insignificant on a top speed run. It would really only affect the time nededd to achieve the ultimate velocity.

I bet is you took Cd and frontal area off both the GT-500 and ZL1 they would be remarkable similar (dare I say reasonably identical as far as air resistence is concerned). Leaving only rolling resistence (tires - which are still quite similar. Both Goodyear G2's) and power as the variables.

I personally wouldn't declare the ZL1 a winner but the fact it performs dam close to the GT500 with that much more weight and less power says quite a bit about the suspension in that car. I can only imagine the difference if they took the car and shed off 200lbs I wouldn't be shocked to see it beating the GT500 then even with its less power.

what's the weight difference again? 260#? that's really only 1 person....or if you're a skinny shit like me, then 1.5 people. not as much as people make it out to be honestly.

not like a 500 or 700# difference....]

what's the weight difference again? 260#? that's really only 1 person....or if you're a skinny shit like me, then 1.5 people. not as much as people make it out to be honestly.

not like a 500 or 700# difference....]

Much less than that, only 180lb between the two. I think the biggest helper is the tire size. I don't care what the Ford engineers think about running wider tires, the car would go around a corner faster if it didn't have such skinny tires on it. I would like to see how the times would change if it were running the same size tires as the Camaro.

I also have to question how they figured the top speed on the car at 189 when it was going faster in pretty much the worst conditions possible. It's pretty damn impressive that it beat the ZL1 by 4.1 seconds to 150 though, that's a pretty f'in big gap!

Much less than that, only 180lb between the two. I think the biggest helper is the tire size. I don't care what the Ford engineers think about running wider tires, the car would go around a corner faster if it didn't have such skinny tires on it. I would like to see how the times would change if it were running the same size tires as the Camaro.

I also have to question how they figured the top speed on the car at 189 when it was going faster in pretty much the worst conditions possible. It's pretty damn impressive that it beat the ZL1 by 4.1 seconds to 150 though, that's a pretty f'in big gap!



yea, that difference caught my eye too.

i agree with the tires. i think they'd have had to re-design the entire car though to fit bigger tires, although i'm not sure.

and i thought the weight diff. was a little more....at 180 though, that's nothing....one person. we've seen the difference that makes in the srks section. usually less, so i don't think trimming 180# off the zl will make up over a half second on the track, although i could be wrong.

based on that chart, how is it anyone is declaring the zl the winner again?

Because cars aren't really numbers on a sheet of paper unless you really live your life a quarter mile at a time.

It's not like either one of them are exactly slow.

Because cars aren't really numbers on a sheet of paper unless you really live your life a quarter mile at a time.

It's not like either one of them are exactly slow.

100% agree! The feel and the confidence the driver gets to have fun with his new toy is very important. And from all the reviews it seems like the ZL1 is a very rewarding car to drive

So I guess nobody will argue against me that S2000 > F-body, right? 8mph slower in the 1/4 mile, but the handling/feel difference is WAY bigger than the GT500/ZL1 comparison, so this should be an easy consensus, right?

So I guess nobody will argue against me that S2000 > F-body, right? 8mph slower in the 1/4 mile, but the handling/feel difference is WAY bigger than the GT500/ZL1 comparison, so this should be an easy consensus, right?Well, that depends, but maybe.
How much faster (if at all) than an LS1 F-body (say, a stock SS or WS6) is the stock S2000 around Gingerman or VIR? :)

I think what bothers me the most is that these magazine articles are using an unknown, subjective weighting system to determine the overall winner, but are passing it off like they were 100% objective about the whole thing. That's fine if they want to declare a winner based off of the fuzzy, warm feelings they get from the ZL1, but at least be honest that that's what you are doing.

Well, that depends, but maybe.
How much faster (if at all) than an LS1 F-body (say, a stock SS or WS6) is the stock S2000 around Gingerman or VIR? :)

i suspect his point was that the previous poster seems to think that the speed isn't important, as long as you feel confident. :engarde:

I think what bothers me the most is that these magazine articles are using an unknown, subjective weighting system to determine the overall winner, but are passing it off like they were 100% objective about the whole thing. That's fine if they want to declare a winner based off of the fuzzy, warm feelings they get from the ZL1, but at least be honest that that's what you are doing.

i don't think there's anything at all unknown about the system they're using. they went into the test liking the camaro better, and they will continue to change/modify rules/tests in order to make their favorite win.

That warm cozy feeling is for sissies.:jest:

Heated arguments based off of hard-copy and internet magazine articles where they said the ZL1 was clearly the better car, but wasn't?

Boom :D

So I guess nobody will argue against me that S2000 > F-body, right? 8mph slower in the 1/4 mile, but the handling/feel difference is WAY bigger than the GT500/ZL1 comparison, so this should be an easy consensus, right?

Great comparison.

On a side note the gap in 1/4 mile times is consistently half a second

So I guess nobody will argue against me that S2000 > F-body, right? 8mph slower in the 1/4 mile, but the handling/feel difference is WAY bigger than the GT500/ZL1 comparison, so this should be an easy consensus, right?

You know what you are doing...
Very apples to oranges comparison there, drop top gutless/buzzy sports car vs muscle car.
Both the GT500 and ZL1 are fast, powerful muscle cars, the Zl1 just drives more refined/better (according to the articles). So you still get a powerful muscle car that is also refined.
Where as with the 4th gen fbody vs S2000, the S2K is pretty slow regardless (yes, 14s @ 100 launching the car like you stole it is slow) - even though its only an 8mph difference, the Fbody has torque everywhere and doesn't have to be driven like you hate it to get good numbers out of it (whether that be in a strait line or on a track). If both cars had atleast similar character to them like the GT500/ZL1 it would be a different story.

I think what bothers me the most is that these magazine articles are using an unknown, subjective weighting system to determine the overall winner, but are passing it off like they were 100% objective about the whole thing. That's fine if they want to declare a winner based off of the fuzzy, warm feelings they get from the ZL1, but at least be honest that that's what you are doing.
Im not rooting for either car (I couldn't care less, for that price Id buy a vette) but they are picking the car by the way its feels/drives vs the [similar] numbers it puts down while still having the muscle car character like the GT500.

You know what you are doing...
Very apples to oranges comparison there, drop top gutless/buzzy sports car vs muscle car.
Both the GT500 and ZL1 are fast, powerful muscle cars, the Zl1 just drives more refined/better (according to the articles). So you still get a powerful muscle car that is also refined.
Where as with the 4th gen fbody vs S2000, the S2K is pretty slow regardless (yes, 14s @ 100 launching the car like you stole it is slow) - even though its only an 8mph difference, the Fbody has torque everywhere and doesn't have to be driven like you hate it to get good numbers out of it (whether that be in a strait line or on a track). If both cars had atleast similar character to them like the GT500/ZL1 it would be a different story.



The GT500/ZL1 battle is exactly the same as the S2K/F-body when talking straight line performance. Sure, both cars are fast, but the GT500 makes the Camaro look slow, just as the F-body does to the S2K. Mid-13s at 105 isn't that much faster than 14s at 100 to compare apples to apples.

You know what you are doing...
Very apples to oranges comparison there, drop top gutless/buzzy sports car vs muscle car.
Both the GT500 and ZL1 are fast, powerful muscle cars, the Zl1 just drives more refined/better (according to the articles). So you still get a powerful muscle car that is also refined.
Where as with the 4th gen fbody vs S2000, the S2K is pretty slow regardless (yes, 14s @ 100 launching the car like you stole it is slow) - even though its only an 8mph difference, the Fbody has torque everywhere and doesn't have to be driven like you hate it to get good numbers out of it (whether that be in a strait line or on a track). If both cars had atleast similar character to them like the GT500/ZL1 it would be a different story.


Im not rooting for either car (I couldn't care less, for that price Id buy a vette) but they are picking the car by the way its feels/drives vs the [similar] numbers it puts down while still having the muscle car character like the GT500.

I intentionally exaggerated (slightly) the comparison to highlight the ridiculousness of the discussion. If this was a 2002 F-body v. 2005 Mustang comparison, nobody that is defending this comparison would agree that the Mustang is the better car (which it is) for the sole reason that it is a little slower. Closer than the GT500/ZL1, truthfully.

I intentionally exaggerated (slightly) the comparison to highlight the ridiculousness of the discussion. If this was a 2002 F-body v. 2005 Mustang comparison, nobody that is defending this comparison would agree that the Mustang is the better car (which it is) for the sole reason that it is a little slower. Closer than the GT500/ZL1, truthfully.

Some people will always be blinded by there dedication to there favorite brand regardless of the facts and there's nothing we can do about that. Everyone has there own idea of what a sports car should be and some would like more power others would like a more balanced package and thankfully we have two badass cars to choose from regardless of which camp you stand behind. Anyone that's surprised that the zl1 is winning all the mag guys over shouldn't be because we know there testing these cars based on every aspect of the car not only on performance stats. Now for those who say the zl1 sucks because it's slow I hope you drive a car that's faster stock since comparing your modded car to a stock car opens an infinite can of worms that would never stop.:chug: