View Full Version : Getting jacked by the Dealer? Vibration issue - Clutch Flywheel?


Revman
06-26-2012, 11:23 PM
Guys,

I realize I've not posted much to the forum, but I have an issue I'd like some advice on.

I took my 2004 V (82k miles) in to the dealer as I was in the process of selling it and had told the buyer that the oil temp sensor needed reflashing because it comes on and jumps around (TSB identified it as a need for electronic software reflash)

The dealer took a drive with me and I showed him the sensor came on and jumped from 280 degrees to 310, back to 290, then to 315, then 280...So we parked the car and he opened the hood, and said that the harmonic balancer is bad. Showed me a very small amount of vibration that was happening (honestly not noticeable) Said that he can fix it, and the aftermarket warranty will pay for it. So I left the car there for the re-flash and fix the harmonic balancer. In the process of the harmonic balancer they found one of the motor mounts to be bad and got the warranty company to pay for that.

Picked up the car "supposedly done" and drove it home (about 5-6 miles) During my short drive I was terribly discomforted with the amount of vibration I was feeling, was very noticeable at 3000+ rpms.

I called the service rep as soon as I got home and told him the car was way worse than when I gave it to them. Incidentally the oil sensor was seeming to work fine as normally it would come on in about 5 - 10 minutes of driving.

I brought the car back to them, and they now say my clutch flywheel is the likely culprit. Now mind you the clutch works perfect. I've driven the car since new, and I'm the only driver, I've driven manual tranny vehicles my entire driving life 37 years, and I don't wear out clutches - I don't drive the V hard either.

The clutch isn't covered (of course) under the aftermarket warranty, so I will have to pay out of pocket for the repair. His explanation is that while the harmonic balancer was bad, it was syncing with the clutch flywheel being bad, and they caused the car to seem like it was ok - ie. in balance. But when the harmonic balancer got fixed, it exposed the clutch flywheel being bad, now being back out of balance.

Is this truth - I feel like I'm being taken for a ride by the service writer at the caddy dealer. Cost for repair - $2000 plus. Cost to simply drop the tranny and look to see if it's a the culprit - $900.

My belief is no matter what, if I let them drop the tranny - the clutch will need to be replaced (I'm out $2k), as well as anything else they can blame on the motor and charge the warranty company for.

I'm so flipping frustrated, because I had the car sold with exception of the oil temp sensor flash. I agreed to let the dang dealer fix something that probably wasn't bad - that's my impression - now I've lost my buyer.

Any advice y'all can offer?

Thanks!

Fuzzy_Wuzzy
06-26-2012, 11:45 PM
How noticeable would it be to a new buyer? might be worth just selling it as is. maybe let the new buyer know it is an issue and take $1000 off the price... or better yet, for $500 buy an LS7 clutch for it and include it with the sale, let the new buyer figure out how to put it in there.

Revman
06-26-2012, 11:57 PM
How noticeable would it be to a new buyer? might be worth just selling it as is. maybe let the new buyer know it is an issue and take $1000 off the price... or better yet, for $500 buy an LS7 clutch for it and include it with the sale, let the new buyer figure out how to put it in there.

Do you think this "flywheel" thing can be the culprit?

I thought about that. I think it would be pretty noticeable - although if you haven't driven a CTS-V you might just think hmmm - its a powerful motor, and think nothing of the vibration. I now drive a Mercedes SL600 V12 Twin Turbo and it's smooth as silk all the way through the power band. So the V's vibration is even more easily felt by me.

If the LS7 clutch kit is $500 - should I not be able to get someone to put it in for about $500? So non-dealer cost would be around $1g? Isn't the replacement flywheels far better than the OEM ones?

If I did that (fixed it outside the dealer) and the vibration issue continues - at least I would be able to get it repaired with the warranty (I hope?)

Thanks.





.

BigTuna819
06-27-2012, 12:32 AM
I agree with Fuzzy, I'd order an ls7 clutch and have your local performance shop do it or have them take a second look. shouldnt be more than 1000-1200 parts n labor. Most v owners do this mod and everyone loves the results. No way would I pay 2k+ to have that dealership mess something else up.

CTSV_510
06-27-2012, 06:46 AM
My LS7 clutch install labor was $500 at the shop I used. The full clutch kit with slave cylinder was $648 I believe from Luke at Lindsay Cadillac. A new LS7 clutch should be a good selling point to any potential buyers.

The question is will that fix the 3000 rpm vibration? Do you feel that vibration when you rev the car to 3000 when it's not in gear? Have you looked at the harmonic balancer while someone else revs the motor?

Skidmarcx
06-27-2012, 08:21 AM
You have to figure out what the problem is first... As stated above when exactly do you feel the vibration? Engine loaded ir unloaded? There are many aftermarket options out there that a potential buyer might consider... I bought my car with known issues, but the seller dropped the price accordingly for aftermarket parts rather than having the dealer repair it

lollygagger8
06-27-2012, 09:16 AM
You have to figure out what the problem is first.

^THIS^

What if they screwed up the install of the balancer? I would've drove it right back there and said you f'd up my car....fix it.

Changing the motor mount should've made the vibes alot better, not worse. Plus you would think they would've done both mounts at the same time. Weird.

07CTS-V
06-27-2012, 10:10 AM
What if they screwed up the install of the balancer? I would've drove it right back there and said you f'd up my car....fix it.

Changing the motor mount should've made the vibes alot better, not worse. Plus you would think they would've done both mounts at the same time. Weird.

^^This^^

They screwed up your car when replacing the balancer or mount...or when the douchebag car porter was beating on it. That was a serious line of bs about the balancer counteracting the flywheel imbalance.

Gabbiani
06-27-2012, 10:39 AM
We don't have balancers - they aren't keyed or weighted. They are dampners. Unless there was a major chunk of metal missing or a weight welded on to it I call BS.

FuzzyLog1c
06-27-2012, 10:50 AM
We don't have balancers - they aren't keyed or weighted. They are dampners. Unless there was a major chunk of metal missing or a weight welded on to it I call BS.

Technically, you're right, however the thin strip of rubber sandwiched between layers of the pulley is so worthless (especially if you're cammed or boosted) that I have a hard time seeing it as anything other than a pulley.

Revman
06-27-2012, 08:39 PM
After reading all your posts, talking to a friend who works for LG Motorsports, also talking with my brother who was the national technical advisor for NHRA and crew chief for Skunk2 Racing...I went in "loaded for bear" to talk to the service advisor and service manager.

They still insisted that the only way to find out what was wrong, was to open up the tranny and check the weighted pressure plate, saying the weights are possibly thrown.

My logic is much like many of yours - if the car ran fine (yes miniscule vibration at 1000 ish RPM's) but totally no other problem than the reflash needed for the oil temp sensor. After "repair" the only thing that was changed was the Harmonic Balancer - how is it possible that a "FIXED" balancer has caused the car to be so much "MORE" out of balance.

After the service manager repeated what the service advisor said - that anything is possible and that the fixed balancer exposed the bad clutch pressure plate, I just about lost it!

I said that diagnostic ideology defies logic. He offered to open up the tranny and check the clutch flywheel pressure plate and only charge me 1/2 the diagnostic fee of 5 hrs if there is no problem with it, but if it is bad, then I pay for the replacement of the non warranty replacement.

I said that I simply don't trust them. I don't believe that they will give me the straight story. I explained that they allowed me pay the charges I had to pay to cover the deductible for the harmonic balancer and reflash, and then to drive my vehicle away assuming they "FIXED" it. Only to find that it is running far worse than it ever did is atrocious.

They agreed to look at the harmonic balancer again and potentially replace it with a new one and see if that fixes the issue. There will be no additional cost to me yet. Now I have to ask - HOW can they know that the Harmonic Balancer is good/bad - off. Since I've read the posts here, what does the Harmonic balancer really do if some have even described it as simply a pully?

Further thoughts?

Thanks for all the responses so far!!

Revman
06-27-2012, 08:50 PM
My LS7 clutch install labor was $500 at the shop I used. The full clutch kit with slave cylinder was $648 I believe from Luke at Lindsay Cadillac. A new LS7 clutch should be a good selling point to any potential buyers.

The question is will that fix the 3000 rpm vibration? Do you feel that vibration when you rev the car to 3000 when it's not in gear? Have you looked at the harmonic balancer while someone else revs the motor?

I called a transmission shop that I got my son's subaru clutch done, and he will r&r the clutch for $400 plus parts (I can bring my own parts) He's been around a long time and is a very good shop.

I haven't really tried it out of gear - but definitely when driving under load you really start feeling it around 3000 rpms.

You have to figure out what the problem is first... As stated above when exactly do you feel the vibration? Engine loaded ir unloaded? There are many aftermarket options out there that a potential buyer might consider... I bought my car with known issues, but the seller dropped the price accordingly for aftermarket parts rather than having the dealer repair it

I can't exactly understand "WHY" there would be a problem now "AFTER" they replaced the harmonic balancer. Unless they did a poor job of installation, or installed the wrong part.


What if they screwed up the install of the balancer? I would've drove it right back there and said you f'd up my car....fix it.

Changing the motor mount should've made the vibes alot better, not worse. Plus you would think they would've done both mounts at the same time. Weird.

^^This^^

They screwed up your car when replacing the balancer or mount...or when the douchebag car porter was beating on it. That was a serious line of bs about the balancer counteracting the flywheel imbalance.

This is where I'm most frustrated - did they do a poor job of installation? Did they go joyride the car and fcuk something up? I was very upset with their diagnosis about the counteracting or revealing the flywheel imbalance. That's something they probably have in the "Mechanics Book of Impossible but Believable Diagnoses for Idiot Customers."

etcts-v
06-27-2012, 09:18 PM
Sounds like you are being taken for a ride to me, doesn't make sense that a new balancer would make the vibrations worse. How could a flywheel and bad balancer both be off exactly enough to not cause vibration?

Just like other folks have said our motors are internally balanced, have you posted this in the Gen III forum? There are a lot of guys in there who helped me with my Harmonic Balancer install issue. Also I would post this in the Cadillac Forums General section, GM customer service monitors those threads and usually helps with any dealer issues.

RADEoN
06-27-2012, 09:23 PM
They only replaced one mount? I wonder if they managed to pop the other one in the process. A bad flywheel could cause this, but I'm not so sure its the issue. The ls1 series is internally balanced, so I don't think its an issue with your damper install as much as the damper being bad. Make sure you inform him that there's no balancer.

meatyCTS-V
06-27-2012, 10:20 PM
They still insisted that the only way to find out what was wrong, was to open up the tranny and check the weighted pressure plate, saying the weights are possibly thrown.


After the service manager repeated what the service advisor said - that anything is possible and that the fixed balancer exposed the bad clutch pressure plate, I just about lost it!


They agreed to look at the harmonic balancer again and potentially replace it with a new one and see if that fixes the issue.

... The weights are possibly thrown? What the fuck does that mean? They are feeding you such a line of bullshit right here. If I were you, I don't think I would have been able to keep myself from slapping the guy like a bitch across the face. When was the last time you've ever seen someone offer a clutch/flywheel/pressure plate balancing service? It's not like a wheel and tire...

I thought they already replaced the crank pully... are they just going to try another one? Also, one thing I do when I get my car worked on, I ask for all my old parts back.

When was the last time you got your wheels/tires balanced? Maybe when the porter was out hooning in the parking lot a wheel weight fell off... maybe that's what the service advisor meant

Either way, good luck. Should just be something simple, but I wouldn't trust them to do it.

-meaty

FuzzyLog1c
06-27-2012, 10:39 PM
My initial thought on this situation was that they disconnected the driveshaft when they pulled the motor and forgot to index it for reinstallation. The solution might be as simple as a quick unbolt and rotate 120 degrees on the driveshaft. Flywheels don't go bad like this. They certainly wear out, but the degradation is not that fast.

jrane
06-27-2012, 11:43 PM
The only way for the flywheel to vibrate that bad is if the dual mass turd thats in there started to seperate. Which has been known to happen granted its not common but i've seen weirder stuff happen. But I say motor mount if they only changed one.

heavymetals
06-27-2012, 11:44 PM
I vote the other motor mount is bad.

You don't do one at a time.

DMM
06-28-2012, 12:27 AM
Half price at 5 hrs labor time? Bullshit. Ask them what labor guide they are using (Chilton, Mitchell, etc), and ask them to show you in that labor guide the exact hours it states the customer should be charged. I believe the entire job is in the 5 hour range. Definitely not anywhere near 10.

Labor times are based off of GM warranty times (which suck, for a tech and the shop b/c they are low) and ANY repair shop must follow THOSE PUBLISHED GUIDELINES ONLY! The only way labor times can be adjusted is for broken/cross threaded bolts, etc. (NOTE: Just b/c its a Cadillac does not qualify as a justifiable labor increase)

A legitimate shop MUST follow a SPECIFIC labor guide, they cannot make up bullshit labor hours to charge a customer...it is illegal and they WILL LOSE THAT COURT BATTLE. Happened at the first shop I worked for when I was 16 (Lustine Chevy)...they settled out and the person got a huge chunk of change for price gouging and theft of services.

Don't let them bullshit you...ask the questions, stand your ground. And, remind them that they "found" a "warrantable" issue with your car that was repaired without you complaining about it...the warranty company can take back any/all monies that were paid to the shop for repairs that you did not seek.

Its time to get nasty dude.

DMM
06-28-2012, 12:33 AM
The only way for the flywheel to vibrate that bad is if the dual mass turd thats in there started to seperate. Which has been known to happen granted its not common but i've seen weirder stuff happen. But I say motor mount if they only changed one.

Another good point...and the dual mass flywheel itself may be covered...just not the clutch or damage to the flywheel friction surface.

wcryan
06-28-2012, 01:20 AM
I vote the other motor mount is bad.

You don't do one at a time.

I vote this too. Our motormounts are filled with fluid. They can be bad without showing leaked fluid. Maybe one showed it being screwed and leaking fluid everywhere, while the other one was still bad, but wasnt leaking the orangish yellowish fluid.

I bet you if the other mount got replaced, your problems will go away. Those dual mass turds are there to take away vibrations. Not add to them. (yes, ague if you want; but that's what they were thought to do; all virbration problems are different)

Revman
06-28-2012, 04:56 PM
Update:

So they spent their time on the car today trying to determine where the vibration is happening - they have ruled out:

Harmonic Balancer: it's fine. As you all have stated it's not actually a balancer - its more of a dampner anyway. That makes me "wonder" what could have happened to make it go wonky like it has?

Clutch, and driveline: it's fine. They found that when the car is in neutral and clutch in or out - the wobbly is still happening. They rev to 3k rpms and it displays the balance vibration issue. SO...

Possible culprits:
Flex Plate/Flywheel/Motor - they believe this is where the issue must be happening.

Called the warranty company and they said they would cover all those items, and only thing not going to be covered is the clutch - which has been ruled out as not an issue. I've agreed to 1/2 of their diagnostic charges ($800 split between us) to take down the tranny and identify the problem. If it's covered under warranty - I owe nothing. If the take down reveals something not covered under warranty. I have the choice to fix it on my dime, or have them put the tranny back and pay the $400 diag fee.

Take down is tomorrow - I'll update after I get the news...

Fuzzy_Wuzzy
06-28-2012, 11:31 PM
now here is the real question will it be easier to sell the car with a new clutch if they have to in there anyway. they should only charge you parts if they have to replace the flywheel.... bet you cant wait to get rid of the car (or have it all freshened and want to keep it)

BudRacing
06-29-2012, 09:08 AM
My bet is on the flywheel. It's the most prone piece to fail and would absolutely have an affect on balance.

jrane
07-03-2012, 08:41 PM
Any News?

35thAnniversaryPhil
11-16-2012, 06:24 PM
Seriously, any news?

TeamSorad
11-17-2012, 05:39 AM
I really hate reading 2 pages of a story and then not being updated at the end... Esp when someone brings up an old thread hahah


Any news? =0)