View Full Version : Ls3 416,TEA TFS 245, EPS cam


Brennen's01SS
07-04-2012, 12:41 PM
01 camaro
Ls3 416
Tea tfs 245
Eps 243 251 .628 .632 113+2
11.2 compression
Fast 102/102
1 7/8 LTs offroad xpipe
M6 with 10bolt
UD pulley
Gz vacuum pump(10inches)
Stock rockers
549rwhp 479 rwtrq
Overall I'm happy with it. Its night and day difference from the h/c ls1. Dyno was on a dyno jet at eps through full exhaust with only 120 miles on engine. I will dyno again after a few thousand miles to see how much I gain. I can also pull more vacuum is nessacery. Drivability is pretty Nice also. Thanks Geoff for all the time and phone calls! Ill post dyno sheet soon.

New #'s 566/496
Pulls to 7k
Only changes:
BTR 3/8 pushrods
Ati balancer
14" vacuum
And kooks race bullets
Going speed density real soon. Maxing out maf at 6500 rpm

lt1773
07-04-2012, 04:10 PM
strong number !any dyno sheet ?

Brennen's01SS
07-04-2012, 04:56 PM
Thanks, the first dyno sheet lost tack signal. The other one is in mph. Pulls were to 7k
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd404/Brennenc1/ab2e225a.jpg
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd404/Brennenc1/648a5ea6.jpg

litle88
07-04-2012, 07:37 PM
Nice!! Congrats
Hope mine does similar, I know I got a 9" but I also got 12-1 comp and slightly larger cam. We shall see bud

ctd
07-04-2012, 09:26 PM
Ya done good! Those are very real world numbers!

Holds on nice after peak torque, that is making fun power.

Brennen's01SS
07-04-2012, 09:52 PM
I think the numbers are good. Overall I was hoping for more torque but I'm satisfied. It's definitly a solid steet car. I'll be adding a plate kit(speed desity also)soon. Gonna hit it with a 150 if the pump keeps up. After it cools off and gets a few thousand miles on the motor I'll dyno again. I may have a race coming up with a 13 gt500. Should be interesting!

DietCoke
07-07-2012, 06:14 AM
Your pull stopped before power peak. Engine woulda made at least 555, maybe 560 with more rpm. You need to pull it to 72-7400 or change your cam, the setup isnt optimal as is. Good #s though

Brennen's01SS
07-07-2012, 09:34 AM
We were thing the same thing after the first pull. But the graph showed a small drop after peak hrsp. We never moved the limiter from the previous tune(7k). Now in curious what pulls to 7300 could have shown. Dietcoke you have a awesome combo and I read through your threads throughout my build. Any thing you see that could increase my trq and maybe more peak hrsp? Thanks.
Timing was at 28-29
Afr was near 13 on the dyno but my (innovate)gage reads alittle fatter 12.5

djfury05
07-07-2012, 12:38 PM
You should make some pulls without the belt on the vacuum pump to see how much it is helping. I've been debating getting one but its a pretty big price tag for a whole kit. Nice numbers tho!

DietCoke
07-07-2012, 04:59 PM
We were thing the same thing after the first pull. But the graph showed a small drop after peak hrsp. We never moved the limiter from the previous tune(7k). Now in curious what pulls to 7300 could have shown. Dietcoke you have a awesome combo and I read through your threads throughout my build. Any thing you see that could increase my trq and maybe more peak hrsp? Thanks.
Timing was at 28-29
Afr was near 13 on the dyno but my (innovate)gage reads alittle fatter 12.5

Every combo is different. For example mine only takes 18 degrees of timing on e85 :chug:. That alone blows people's minds. The graph looks really healthy, but I'd pull it higher just to see. If you have room left on your vac pump, shoot for 12 inches of vacuum at least as well, few ponies to be had there. Usually max power is 12-14 inches

senicalj4579
07-07-2012, 05:21 PM
Nice!!! TEA heads rule!

Orange Juice
07-07-2012, 06:16 PM
Im in the process of installing a the GZ pump while still keeping the airconditioning. Any numbers without the pump or at lower vacum.

Brennen's01SS
07-07-2012, 08:57 PM
I guess we should have pulled alittle timing to see if it responded. I'm gonna set the vac pump on 12". Also orange juice I had to move my dryer to between my battery post. Just go to a hydrolic hose shop they can extend the the hoses. I'm not chasing number but I spent a nice bit of money on this combo. If it can make 575rwhp 500rwtrq I'll be satisfied. The parts are there. It just needs alittle tweeking. More miles, more vacuum, and cooler weather and I should get there. It never ends!

DietCoke
07-07-2012, 09:41 PM
You will probably need a smaller cog pulley on the GZ with an UD. I needed a smaller pulley to make more the 10 psi, since the underdrive spins it 25% slower then its designed, for what its worth. GZ will sell you the parts you need.

Mazzenger
07-07-2012, 11:10 PM
Nice build. Good numbers! I was wondering how TFS 245 heads would perform on a sub 427ci LSX engine.

Sprayed1998
07-08-2012, 02:55 AM
Cutout

DietCoke
07-08-2012, 03:57 AM
Cutout

Wont make any power on an xpipe dual exhaust.

Orange Juice
07-08-2012, 12:24 PM
I guess we should have pulled alittle timing to see if it responded. I'm gonna set the vac pump on 12". Also orange juice I had to move my dryer to between my battery post. Just go to a hydrolic hose shop they can extend the the hoses. I'm not chasing number but I spent a nice bit of money on this combo. If it can make 575rwhp 500rwtrq I'll be satisfied. The parts are there. It just needs alittle tweeking. More miles, more vacuum, and cooler weather and I should get there. It never ends!
Thats what I ended up doing but had to loose the cruise control.

Sprayed1998
07-08-2012, 01:48 PM
My vette gained 11rwhp thru cutouts on my 403? Longtubes and Xpipe.

DietCoke
07-08-2012, 08:12 PM
My vette gained 11rwhp thru cutouts on my 403? Longtubes and Xpipe.

What kind of crappy mufflers were you using :confused:

Brennen's01SS
07-08-2012, 08:54 PM
I dont think I'd gain much either.
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd404/Brennenc1/39742c7e.jpg
It's pretty much staight through

Brennen's01SS
07-08-2012, 08:56 PM
That's also an old pic the headers are now tsp 1 7/8 and magnaflow 5" x 13" cans instead of the loudmouth 1.

LIL SS
07-09-2012, 01:42 AM
Wont make any power on an xpipe dual exhaust.

Ummm, my little 347 had 3" X-pipe, and dual electric cut outs after the X before the mufflers. Picked up a solid 10-15rwhp/rwtq from 3800-4k on up.

DietCoke
07-09-2012, 04:01 AM
What kind of mufflers are you guys using? Look at his exhaust setup. There is no restriction.

I picked up 0hp/tq with open exhaust at the x pipe vs my full exhaust, and I'm running a LOT more engine. Of course I don't have restrictive mufflers either

87silverbullet
07-09-2012, 08:39 AM
What kind of mufflers are you guys using? Look at his exhaust setup. There is no restriction.

I picked up 0hp/tq with open exhaust at the x pipe vs my full exhaust, and I'm running a LOT more engine. Of course I don't have restrictive mufflers either

It's not just his mufflers, look at the bends. Each one adds up as a restriction.

I am considering selling my true dual to the rear Borla setup so I can just run dumps.

Do you have a pic of yours?

Tweek
07-10-2012, 10:24 PM
Still not going to be fast enough...... JFWY bet it rolls out, you gonna let me drive it?

6D9 Matt
07-10-2012, 11:36 PM
Just curious... what made you choose the 245's over the 235 TFS heads?

Im thinking about a 416 later this year and between the two...

ctd
07-11-2012, 09:33 AM
Just curious... what made you choose the 245's over the 235 TFS heads?

Im thinking about a 416 later this year and between the two...

I curious as well!

Brennen's01SS
07-11-2012, 09:51 AM
After speaking to Geoff and tea they both advised me the 245s would be a better choice. They have more experience with them so I let them chose. If I would have built the block around the 245s the compression would have been closer to 12.1. I originally was using 61cc 243s but figured I'd be leaving alot on the table. So I contacted Geoff and made the order.

6D9 Matt
07-11-2012, 11:40 AM
Hmmm... just when I thought I was decided on the 235's LOL. But yeah if TEA recommended the 245's that is good enough reason I would think (knowing your setup, etc). I may have to call and talk to them as well, I was thinking of going with TEA anyway.

DietCoke
07-11-2012, 10:25 PM
It's not just his mufflers, look at the bends. Each one adds up as a restriction.

I am considering selling my true dual to the rear Borla setup so I can just run dumps.

Do you have a pic of yours?

No, but its headers ---> x with 26x3" sweet thunder bullets and dumps. No bends and straight through

ctd
07-12-2012, 10:05 AM
After speaking to Geoff and tea they both advised me the 245s would be a better choice. They have more experience with them so I let them chose. If I would have built the block around the 245s the compression would have been closer to 12.1. I originally was using 61cc 243s but figured I'd be leaving alot on the table. So I contacted Geoff and made the order.

I'm dealing with this very same compression issue, my 416 build was for small chamber head then a switch to a bigger head mid stream.

The individual doing up my new TF's is going to weld in the chamber in an area that does "not" affect the final flow numbers. The way it is explained to me any milling is going to hurt flows numbers as you shroud the valve in.

87silverbullet
07-13-2012, 09:32 AM
No, but its headers ---> x with 26x3" sweet thunder bullets and dumps. No bends and straight through

That's why, no bends. I do agree the mufflers do make a difference but the bends start to cause issues when there are too many of them.

Brennen's01SS
07-13-2012, 08:34 PM
Now that I think of it I had trouble sealing the headers. I was using oem multi layer but still having leaks. So I bought sbe copper gaskets that are a little thicker. Holding the gaskets over each other the sbe were about 3/16 to 1/4 smaller I.D. Than the oem. Would this be causing a restriction worth fixing?

87silverbullet
07-14-2012, 08:53 AM
Now that I think of it I had trouble sealing the headers. I was using oem multi layer but still having leaks. So I bought sbe copper gaskets that are a little thicker. Holding the gaskets over each other the sbe were about 3/16 to 1/4 smaller I.D. Than the oem. Would this be causing a restriction worth fixing?

Is the hole smaller than the exhaust port on the head? If not, leave it alone.

DietCoke
07-22-2012, 07:09 PM
Do you have a pic of yours?

Had the exhaust from the collector back off the car today to drop the tranny, took a pic. You can see the 26" powersticks pretty clearly.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn163/GhostRL/2012-07-22_19-06-53_724.jpg?t=1342998475

Brennen's01SS
07-24-2012, 11:19 AM
I'm not sure if I'm in the right section, also posted in fueling and injection. About 1 week after the tune the car started acting up. First, I noticed 1 out of 5 stop and go's the throttle would have a dead spot (from 0% to 30%). It didn't bog or act like anything was happening. Second symtom was lean idle 22.5 on innovate lm1. It started to have a small miss. I started testing, I pulled the plugs and they were whitish brown, with an green tint. All grounds were checked, fuel pressure, spark, injector pulse, compression 200-210, and valve springs, I still could not find the issue.

Now it's hardly running. Afr is extemly rich. With a bad miss and it stalls now. I pulled the plugs again to change them, they were black. I installed a new crank position sensor but still it's not better.

One thing I did notice is the fuel pressure go's from 65 to 40 instantly when I prime the system. But seems to hold 65 when idleing. It has a racetronix pump with Hotwire kit. I can't seem to diagnose the problem. But it seems to be getting worse. Any help would be appreciated. I'm out of ideas! Sorry for rambling

DietCoke
07-24-2012, 04:30 PM
Sounds like fuel pump is going out.

red fury
07-24-2012, 08:47 PM
Solid numbers, we always want more....... but I am sure Geoff looked from every angle while developing your cam and tuning the whole package so I doubt there are more than a couple rwhp/twtq hiding out somewhere. Wait on some good weather and go see what mph you trap in the 1/4, thats what its all about with a "street" car if you like to play around on the street

lt1773
08-23-2012, 12:09 PM
I'm not sure if I'm in the right section, also posted in fueling and injection. About 1 week after the tune the car started acting up. First, I noticed 1 out of 5 stop and go's the throttle would have a dead spot (from 0% to 30%). It didn't bog or act like anything was happening. Second symtom was lean idle 22.5 on innovate lm1. It started to have a small miss. I started testing, I pulled the plugs and they were whitish brown, with an green tint. All grounds were checked, fuel pressure, spark, injector pulse, compression 200-210, and valve springs, I still could not find the issue.

Now it's hardly running. Afr is extemly rich. With a bad miss and it stalls now. I pulled the plugs again to change them, they were black. I installed a new crank position sensor but still it's not better.

One thing I did notice is the fuel pressure go's from 65 to 40 instantly when I prime the system. But seems to hold 65 when idleing. It has a racetronix pump with Hotwire kit. I can't seem to diagnose the problem. But it seems to be getting worse. Any help would be appreciated. I'm out of ideas! Sorry for rambling


Did you fix the problem ? Did you dyno it again ?

Brennen's01SS
08-23-2012, 12:52 PM
Not yet. I'm gonna change the In tank regulator and go from there. Hopefully this solves my problem. It seems to definitely be fueling or electrical because all cylinders are fat/lean depending on how it feels. If this doesn't fix it I'll drop it off by geoffs. Gonna be a few more weeks before I can mess with it.

Pray
08-25-2012, 10:55 PM
Less head, more compression, more miles. You can't judge a motor till about 3,000 miles. I think mine did about what yours did right off the bat then with more miles and some tuning did 573/530rw but that was 4+years ago when there was no such thing as the GZ vacuum pump and FAST 102. Just give it some time and see what you get.

Sprayed1998
08-26-2012, 02:59 PM
What kind of crappy mufflers were you using :confused:

Corsa

Stang2Goat
09-13-2012, 12:08 AM
Without knowing what the motor setup was like, if you had simply told us "LS-based motor dyno", I would have SWORN the graph belonged to a procharged D1 346 or 364!

Torque curve starts out slow and lazy but builds and climbs with RPM, and horsepower does the same thing, just like a centrifugal. Your HP graph is just a huge vertical climb rather than a curve. Very cool.

There's a bit left in this combination without even changing the cam should you get bored with it. Hint: 12:1 compression on 93 or 12.5:1 and higher on E85 if your pistons and heads will allow it. You have enough cam already to keep the DCR at a reasonable level for pump gas use.

Extra props to you for stepping up to the godfather of TFS cathedrals - 245 ftw!

Brennen's01SS
09-13-2012, 09:03 PM
I'm gonna change my in tank regulator tommorrow. This better fix it. I've only put like 200miles on it then the problem started. Now it's been sitting for 2 months and now I'm off work. I can't wait to beat on this car. I need to go fast!!!

Brennen's01SS
09-16-2012, 05:30 PM
Well the regulator wasn't the problem. Also tried another PCM tuned for my setup, that wasn't it either. I'm at a loss. I'm gonna pull the intake and valve covers to look over everything again. Has anyone had an issue with fast 36# injectors?

djfury05
09-16-2012, 05:49 PM
Well the regulator wasn't the problem. Also tried another PCM tuned for my setup, that wasn't it either. I'm at a loss. I'm gonna pull the intake and valve covers to look over everything again. Has anyone had an issue with fast 36# injectors?

I never had an issue with mine. They are white in color correct?

Brennen's01SS
09-16-2012, 07:18 PM
Yeah that's them. I just drove the car for a second and it's idling fine. But weak throttle response and once in gear driving it's missing 2500+rpm. Gonna take it to a buddies shop tommorrow to let some more eyes look over it....

lt1773
09-18-2012, 03:50 AM
check your fuel system

Brennen's01SS
09-20-2012, 09:04 PM
It's fixed!!!!! Just before giving up on it I decided to throw new o2 sensors on it, boy did it payoff. It does have a little pinging at wot. Could this be because of the new 02's? Does the tune need to be looked over? FYI I used Bosch 13111 sensors because of the longer harness.

lt1773
10-10-2012, 01:29 AM
any update ?

Brennen's01SS
10-10-2012, 02:21 PM
Got it all worked out now, I pulled the intake and found oil in the runners. Apparently I didn't use the right sealant on the intake rocker bolts, which caused my o2 sensors to fail and killed the octane in the combustion chamber making it ping. I just left geoffs dyno, it actually picked up 5 hrspwr and 10 trq. All in all its running great now just in time for cruisen the coast

Tweek
10-10-2012, 08:01 PM
did you up the vaccuum on it any?

Brennen's01SS
10-10-2012, 10:10 PM
No, still just 9"s. I'm gonna up it to 14" when I get a in car gauge. I didn't put the stock rims on either this time. Dyno with the 19x12s. I don't know how much the 19"s take over the stockers but their a lot heavier. You home tweek?

Tweek
10-10-2012, 11:23 PM
No, still just 9"s. I'm gonna up it to 14" when I get a in car gauge. I didn't put the stock rims on either this time. Dyno with the 19x12s. I don't know how much the 19"s take over the stockers but their a lot heavier. You home tweek?

Nah not till next tuesday. Only thing i have left on mine is the alignment, and alittle retuning. Should be on the road looking for victims by next weekend.

Brennen's01SS
02-03-2013, 10:58 AM
New #'s in first post

Martin@Tick
02-03-2013, 12:30 PM
I noticed the slight valve float past 6000rpm that no one else did in this thread aside from Tooley or Geoff which is why you got those 3/8" push rods most likely:D

I always push the 3/8" push rods to guys that are doing set-ups like this. Makes a world of difference. The extra vaccuum probably helped also.

Very stout numbers! I love this combination and with all the guys screaming square port nowadays just goes to show you that the cathedral port stuff still has it!

ctd
02-03-2013, 02:32 PM
Nice just Nice!

Same injector's? What duty cycle please?

Brennen's01SS
02-03-2013, 03:56 PM
Thanks guys, there was definitely a little valve float. The duty cycle was 86%

Brennen's01SS
02-03-2013, 08:22 PM
Same old FAST 36" injectors

Tweek
02-04-2013, 08:16 AM
Damn that thing is nasty, don't get mad when we run and I spray lol I thought you just put magnaflows on it, changed them again? Figured you would have already went speed density too.

Brennen's01SS
02-04-2013, 08:37 AM
I never had a doubt in my mind that your bottle would be on! Lol. I changed the mufflers because it was to quiet. I don't think any gains from the mufflers though. They both are straight through. The gains came from the pushrods (deflection) and the added vacuum. Maybe we can line them up later today! You game?

Tweek
02-04-2013, 08:53 AM
I never had a doubt in my mind that your bottle would be on! Lol. I changed the mufflers because it was to quiet. I don't think any gains from the mufflers though. They both are straight through. The gains came from the pushrods (deflection) and the added vacuum. Maybe we can line them up later today! You game?

The magnaflows where louder than you think, you never heard it from the outside probably. I don't get home till tomorrow but I'm down for a run. We can do a pull before the new cam goes in, and one after.

Brennen's01SS
02-04-2013, 09:21 AM
Sounds good, just hit me up!

LIL SS
02-05-2013, 01:30 AM
This thread is very interesting to me since we have a similar yet different combo :)

Mine:
418
Prc 237's 115g valves
5/16 .080 push rods
254/260 .630/.625
1 3/4 stepped to 1 7/8
Super Vic with dominator TB
Loose verter backed by a glide

Last time on the dyno made 546/47x falling on its face at 6,650 due to float issues.

I am making the following changes:
Turned down ls3 valves
Powdered metal guides
Spring upgrade
1.85 roller rockers
Not sure if I will use a 5/16 .120 wall or a 3/8 .120 wall, what ever fits the heads
Moroso enhanced 4 vane vacuum pump
Porting the super Vic to line up with the heads, there is some core shift.

Being we were close before, it will be interesting to compare after results.

Brennen's01SS
02-06-2013, 05:54 AM
Man you have a pretty nasty combo, kind of max effort though. Just changing the pushrods to correct the float should surpass me. I could imagine yours with a 6speed would be very close to 600. Kinda hard to compare the two builds. I'm sure the victor would really shine on my build , I'm just not in to choping up my cowl and loosing street ability. Looking forward to seeing your results though! Could be very close to 600 thought an auto, good luck

LIL SS
02-06-2013, 11:47 AM
Brennen,

I would say mine is a little more on the wilder side, but it is by no means extreme.

Your comment about the Super Vic, I was running it on my 347ci motor previously to the 418. I also had an 80e trans in it. Even if I short shifted 1-2 and locked the verter early, it still drove awesome. Switching from the ls6 to the super Vic, yes the dyno showed a loss of 10-15 till about 4,500, but I honestly did not feel it SOTP. Another thing, I had it idling fine with the ls6, but it is way easier to get a new combo to idle with the Super Vic. So the people that say drivability goes out the window, well, my guess is they haven't tried it!

Now with that said, I am not suggesting you chop up your car. We all build what we want to. I am just fortunate enough to have the room in my engine bay :)

I do think you would definately pick up power on the top end with a properly set up Super Vic.

Brennen's01SS
02-06-2013, 01:05 PM
Man I have to say its been very tempting to break out the metabo and start cutting away. I'm sure there would be substantial gains in the high rpm but I just can't make myself do it!

Lil SS you seem to have a really well working combo. It may even break 600 rwhp on the dyno once the changes are made. Either way I'm sure it hauls ass!! What vehicle is this in? Any times on it?

I'll be going speed density on the 16th. Geoff should be able to add the right amount of fuel after 6400. I don't really see me picking up any more Hrspwr although my map kpa was at 95 at wot. We will see. This should eliminate all restrictions. Hopefully everything goes well. Sadly I seem to be getting board with this setup. Do you see any area I change or improve apon without pulling heads? Btw nitrous will be next!!

LIL SS
02-06-2013, 02:21 PM
So times are in my sig for the 546rwhp combo that was seeing valve train control issues.

This motor is in my pick up which is pictured in my avatar.

More pics can be found here:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=5839134&postcount=206
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=5839135&postcount=207

Brennen's01SS
02-06-2013, 02:44 PM
Ah I see, I use the mobile site 98% of the time.
I'm really digging your truck. Very nice times as well. What's it weigh in at? What size shot? Any plans on restoring it or plan to stay rat rodish?

LIL SS
02-06-2013, 03:35 PM
So last time out it weighed 3,175 with me in it.
I have only used the first stage and it has a 52n jet in it, so around 100rwhp.
The plan is to rewire it do all the body work and do a wore out patina style paint job. Something similar to this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=181073857134&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:MOTORS:1123#ht_1480wt_1064