Generation IV Internal Engine - Engine Build for 69 Camaro and New to LS World

I have a 69 Camaro that I want to start building an engine for (Camaro has 4 speed muncie that I would still use and has 4.10s in the rear end). Right now I'm just in the saving/planning/researching stages. I am new to the LS engines but i like the idea of large cubes and light weight. My goal with the engine is to have around 600 hp and same torque. The Camaro is just a street car that I would maybe do road racing/drifting later down the road. My initial idea was to do an LS7 because I like the sound of a 427 but then I found out that was way too expensive for me to do. Then I started looking into LS3 builds to make a 427 but having to re-sleeve the cylinders is looking to be a little bit more than I am wanting to spend. I have also started looking into the LQ9's as an option but right now I don't know enough about them. So my question is what is the best LS engine setup for me to achieve around 600hp and torque while staying under $5000 roughly for the entire build. My dad has built a few engines before and I am good at wrenching so I would be assembling the engine and doing all the work I can to save money. I would love to hear everyone's input for my options.

You will need more money for 600hp. You could get 500 for 5k if you watch your dollars. Also 600 ftlbs is a lot of torque without boost. It is your money but I would suggest getting someone involved in your project that knows what they are doing. Good luck.

LQ9 408 stroker or LS3 417 stroker will get you to your HP goals with the propper heads/cam/mani/TB. but not TQ.
$3700 will get you into a budget LQ9 408 stroker. http://www.texas-speed.com/p-588-tsp-408-cid-lq9-short-block.aspx
$5K will get alittle more than a shortblock (LS3417) http://www.texas-speed.com/p-295-tsp-418-cid-l92ls3-short-block.aspx

AES has a good deal on Lq4/9 427's buy you'll need an awesome set of heads, Cam and intake but that's for 540/550 hp. But you'll need more money for those goals if u ask me.

To make that power with that budget, you are going to need nitrous.

I appreciate all of the feedback. I am mainly trying to keep the cost as low as I can while achieving the 600 mark. Now that I think about it more $7000 would be my absolute max. I want to stay naturally aspirated since I like raw power.

What are the pros/cons between the LQ9 408 and LS3 418 aside from just the weight? If they achieve the same amount of power then I would go with the LQ9 to save money.

If auto crossing, or road racing is in your future, then you'll really appreciate the weight savings out on the nose of the car by going aluminum block. It turns out that it is a good bit more than the 70 to 80 lbs. that was once considered to be the difference. Right at 107 lbs is the actual weight difference. If your simply trying to save money (aren't we all) and not so much worried about the weight difference, then the iron engine is the way to go. Do they achieve the same power goals? Yes sir. It all boils down to application and money.

So my question is what is the best LS engine setup for me to achieve around 600hp and torque while staying under $5000 roughly for the entire build.


Even at $7000 for the entire build, I don't think it's realistic to meet your goals, unless you get some of the parts for free or way below market rates. Check out my build. I did the 600hp for cheap. It's the little odds and ends that add up.

If auto crossing, or road racing is in your future, then you'll really appreciate the weight savings out on the nose of the car by going aluminum block. It turns out that it is a good bit more than the 70 to 80 lbs. that was once considered to be the difference. Right at 107 lbs is the actual weight difference. If your simply trying to save money (aren't we all) and not so much worried about the weight difference, then the iron engine is the way to go. Do they achieve the same power goals? Yes sir. It all boils down to application and money.

Just curious, how did you get this number? I have read 88 pounds.

Just curious, how did you get this number? I have read 88 pounds.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1556326-weights-ls-blocks.html
It's in the stickys, over at gen 3 internal engine.

Are you planning to run a carb or EFI with the LS? EFI will raise cost of the fuel system, going to a carb removes one of the best features of the LS.

Couple of thoughts from someone who also owns a 69:

1) Your Muncie will not hold 600 hp - look at TKO600 or aftermarket T56 here. Both have OD which will help a lot with 4.10 gears. If your rear is not a 12 bolt, it will also die with sticky tires. Add a drive shaft too.

2) LS will require all new accessory drive, new oil pan and radiator to fit. Make sure these are in your budget. New springs might be needed as well.

3) For a Gen I car, 600 hp is cheaper to get installed using BBC, cast crank 496 coming to mind. (hard to beat cubic inches) Like it or not, LS aftermarket parts are still more expensive than old style SBC or BBC - hopefully some day the difference will be smaller.

4) You can buy an 800 hp 540 for less than the LS7 - Straub has a build it yourself kit including AFR heads for just under $10K.

I agree... if you are going to stick to 600 rwhp or less, I would just go with an old school BBC such as a 468-496.

Vortecproperformance.com is a guy that is pretty known on the classic camaro and chevelle sites that has some great package setups. I was looking at the 650-700 fwhp setups for me ($7,500-8,000).

Although now Im thinking that wont be enough, and I think I may go stroked LS3 with a blower (800-900 rwhp).

As stated, that Muncie isnt going to hold very long at the 600 rwhp. Same with the rear unless you have a built 12-bolt/9".

I agree... if you are going to stick to 600 rwhp or less, I would just go with an old school BBC such as a 468-496.

Vortecproperformance.com is a guy that is pretty known on the classic camaro and chevelle sites that has some great package setups. I was looking at the 650-700 fwhp setups for me ($7,500-8,000).

Although now Im thinking that wont be enough, and I think I may go stroked LS3 with a blower (800-900 rwhp).

As stated, that Muncie isnt going to hold very long at the 600 rwhp. Same with the rear unless you have a built 12-bolt/9".

If you go to a blower, you don't need a stroker to make 800-900 rwhp - stock cubes are more than adequate. You can get same hp with a 540 and a little N20 for less $$. Either option will require significant upgrades to a Gen 1 car to be safe.

Definitely... Im just not a fan of the giggle gas. Im either going blower or turbo.

What kind of upgrades do you consider a good idea around 600-800 rwhp on a first gen? Not trying to hijack the thread, but seems like a relevant question to the OP. Brakes? Steering upgrades? I have some ideas (and done most of them), but want to hear others opinions.

Definitely... Im just not a fan of the giggle gas. Im either going blower or turbo.

What kind of upgrades do you consider a good idea around 600-800 rwhp on a first gen? Not trying to hijack the thread, but seems like a relevant question to the OP. Brakes? Steering upgrades? I have some ideas (and done most of them), but want to hear others opinions.

Ideally a new front subframe with more modern geometry, rack & pinion steering and large disk brakes. Hard to argue with less weight and better performance. This should be coupled with subframe connectors, shaft loop and a cage. My Gen 1 twists with subframe connectors only and you can find cracks in many high powered cars where front posts meet roof. These cars, just like the newer ones, were never set up for this kind of power.

There are a lot of options for new front & rear suspension for these older cars but some can be pricey. Detroit Speed has my favorite stuff but I just don't have the $$ to invest now. Most of the new subframes will work with SBC/BBC or LS stuff.

Are you planning to run a carb or EFI with the LS? EFI will raise cost of the fuel system, going to a carb removes one of the best features of the LS.

Couple of thoughts from someone who also owns a 69:

1) Your Muncie will not hold 600 hp - look at TKO600 or aftermarket T56 here. Both have OD which will help a lot with 4.10 gears. If your rear is not a 12 bolt, it will also die with sticky tires. Add a drive shaft too.

2) LS will require all new accessory drive, new oil pan and radiator to fit. Make sure these are in your budget. New springs might be needed as well.

3) For a Gen I car, 600 hp is cheaper to get installed using BBC, cast crank 496 coming to mind. (hard to beat cubic inches) Like it or not, LS aftermarket parts are still more expensive than old style SBC or BBC - hopefully some day the difference will be smaller.

4) You can buy an 800 hp 540 for less than the LS7 - Straub has a build it yourself kit including AFR heads for just under $10K.

I would stick with the carb since I like the idea of having no computerized controls (I know the MSD box would be the only computerized item for the ignition on the LS engine with a carb).

How much will the muncie hold up to? Mine is not the rock crusher but I'm not quite sure if it's the close ratio or not. My dad used to have a 69 ss camaro with a 427 that he had built up and that had a muncie (not a rock crusher). It held up well with no problems. My dad never really knew what kind of hp he was running in it but it had to be around 500hp I would guess. He had a dana 60 with 4.88's in the rear end.

Mine is a 12 bolt rear end. The drive shaft I'm not sure about. I would probably guess that it is stock.

I knew with an LS I would need new accessory drive and oil pan along with headers but how come the radiator? I just bought a new radiator for it since the old one was leaking pretty bad. It's the same size except that the new one is a 3 core. I also have a 14" electric fan. Would this still work with an LS engine?

You bring up a very good point and that was part of the reason I started this thread. I was under the impression that the LS engines are a great upgrade from the traditional SBC and BBC. The reason I started looking into an LS engine is because of larger cubes and less weight. Right now I have a 327 in the camaro that has been mildly built (when I bought it the owner did not know what all had been done previously to the engine but you can tell it has been built up better than stock) and the suspension has been upgraded and handles like a dream. My fear was that by putting in a BBC I would lose the "dream" like handling. I have seen BBC blocks fairly cheap compared to the LS blocks new. My dad actually still has a 396 block that I could possibly use.

Now I guess my question is what are the main pros/cons between a BBC and an LS engine? Is the weight all that different? For me the weight difference between the LQ9 and LS3 of ~107 lbs is not that big of a deal. Any input about BBC vs LS is much appreciated

I have been continually searching craigslist to see if any good deals pop up on LS engines. Today I found this LQ9 block for $400: http://cleveland.craigslist.org/pts/3052216928.html
Is that a decent price for a LQ9 block?

Are you planning to run a carb or EFI with the LS? EFI will raise cost of the fuel system, going to a carb removes one of the best features of the LS.

Couple of thoughts from someone who also owns a 69:

1) Your Muncie will not hold 600 hp - look at TKO600 or aftermarket T56 here. Both have OD which will help a lot with 4.10 gears. If your rear is not a 12 bolt, it will also die with sticky tires. Add a drive shaft too.

Stay away from the vibration prone and long throw shifting TKO600 and get a used T56.

Agreed! I swapped in a T56 magnum for my Camaro. Absolutely love it...

Well my uncle owns a body shop and my cousin works there and I was talking to him about ls engines. He said they could get me a LQ9 with all accessories out of a salvage yard with under 80k mi on it for around $1000. I was wondering how are the LQ9 blocks for what I'm looking to do with it?

Sorry to bring this thread back to life but I have some more questions.
I want to have around 550hp at the wheels. From some of the research I've done so far I want to find a junkyard LQ4/9 complete and then add L92/LS3 heads. That's about as far as I've decided on stuff so far.

I want to keep the engine carb'd and my camaro already has a muncie 4 speed in it with 12 bolt rear end. I was wondering if anyone has done any LS swaps into 1st gen camaros and what is all involved? I know I will need to get the MSD ignition box for this conversion. Will I be able to hook the LQ4/9 up to the muncie? By staying with a carb and only having to do the ignition box what sensors will I need to keep in the LQ4/9? Can I keep the same fuel system setup that's stock in the camaro since I'm staying with a carb?

I am still in the planning stages right now. Just want to make sure I have a plan so I get all of the right parts. Any other input you guys have would be greatly appreciated.

Check the conversions section. There are several there that has completed their swap. They go into detail on what brackets and headers. Lots of info and they are more than helpful.

You should look into a LY6. They replaced the LQ9, and already have the heads on them you are looking for. These engines are iron block, 6.0 liter, with VVT. You can remove the VVT if your not comfortable with modding it, but I left mine. It's actually cool technology that will make your engine feel bigger than it really is. Mast Motorsports experimented with the VVT stuff for over a year before the others caught on to the advantages of the technology. Bottom line is this: LY6 plus a Mast VVT camshaft, long tube headers, and a LS3 intake, and you have yourself an inexpensive 500 horsepower engine that will be reliable, AND driveable. And for me personally, 500 HP is plenty of go go for the street.

Sorry to bring this thread back to life but I have some more questions.
I want to have around 550hp at the wheels. From some of the research I've done so far I want to find a junkyard LQ4/9 complete and then add L92/LS3 heads. That's about as far as I've decided on stuff so far.

I want to keep the engine carb'd and my camaro already has a muncie 4 speed in it with 12 bolt rear end. I was wondering if anyone has done any LS swaps into 1st gen camaros and what is all involved? I know I will need to get the MSD ignition box for this conversion. Will I be able to hook the LQ4/9 up to the muncie? By staying with a carb and only having to do the ignition box what sensors will I need to keep in the LQ4/9? Can I keep the same fuel system setup that's stock in the camaro since I'm staying with a carb?

I am still in the planning stages right now. Just want to make sure I have a plan so I get all of the right parts. Any other input you guys have would be greatly appreciated.

To get 550 rwhp you will need a lit more than an LQ4 with L92 heads. Figure about 15% loss in drive train - puts you way north of 600 flywheel. Takes a stout 408 to make 550 at the wheels - can be accomplished but it will take a good set of heads and a well thought out setup.

Hooker makes some swap headers as well as motor mounts. Hell even GM now makes a conversion pan for the early models. Do some research on accessory drive parts - not sure all will clear stock front sub frame.

Make sure to add up all the parts costs before pulling the trigger. As you now have a SBC car don't loose sight of a stroker version of the old guy - $10K can get you pretty close to 600 hp in a crate motor. You could have this in and be driving in a day.

Sorry to bring this thread back to life but I have some more questions.
I want to have around 550hp at the wheels. From some of the research I've done so far I want to find a junkyard LQ4/9 complete and then add L92/LS3 heads. That's about as far as I've decided on stuff so far.

I want to keep the engine carb'd and my camaro already has a muncie 4 speed in it with 12 bolt rear end. I was wondering if anyone has done any LS swaps into 1st gen camaros and what is all involved? I know I will need to get the MSD ignition box for this conversion. Will I be able to hook the LQ4/9 up to the muncie? By staying with a carb and only having to do the ignition box what sensors will I need to keep in the LQ4/9? Can I keep the same fuel system setup that's stock in the camaro since I'm staying with a carb?

I am still in the planning stages right now. Just want to make sure I have a plan so I get all of the right parts. Any other input you guys have would be greatly appreciated.

This summer I swapped an LS engine into my 1969 Camaro and retained the stock Muncie transmission. Quick time makes a bell housing that bolts up to the LS block and fits the Muncie trans. Everything fit perfectly and I was able to use the stock cross member. Here are the parts I used on my swap:

Quick time bell housing #QTI-RM-6036
Hooker motor mounts # HOK-12624HKR

Good luck with your project!

You should look into a LY6. They replaced the LQ9, and already have the heads on them you are looking for. These engines are iron block, 6.0 liter, with VVT. You can remove the VVT if your not comfortable with modding it, but I left mine. It's actually cool technology that will make your engine feel bigger than it really is. Mast Motorsports experimented with the VVT stuff for over a year before the others caught on to the advantages of the technology. Bottom line is this: LY6 plus a Mast VVT camshaft, long tube headers, and a LS3 intake, and you have yourself an inexpensive 500 horsepower engine that will be reliable, AND driveable. And for me personally, 500 HP is plenty of go go for the street.

Isn't the LY6 more expensive to get? And don't think I would be able to use the VVT since I'm staying with a carb. I can pretty much get a LQ4/9 for around $800-1000 full engine from the junk yard. Is the only difference the heads and VVT pretty much?

I was just saying LQ4 with L92 heads as a start towards a 408. I would build the rest of the engine but don't know yet what else I would all go with yet. That's what I'm doing now is planning it all out and how much I will have spent in it. I know the crate engines are reasonably prices and have a lot of power but I would like the satisfaction of "I built this" type of feeling.

Check the conversions section. There are several there that has completed their swap. They go into detail on what brackets and headers. Lots of info and they are more than helpful.
Do you have any specific links to ones I can look at?

The LY6 is gonna cost you more than say a LQ9, but its already got the heads you want. I was simply giving you an inexpensive route to follow. This stuff adds up fast. I have $4200 in my engine. That's with the cam kit, LS3 intake, and long tube headers. I know it can be had cheaper, because I paid way more for my LY6 than most on here. And of course you realize that going carb will add substantial cost, even if you have the carb already. The intake, and ignition control units are pricey. And you can always go to a 408 with your LY6 down the road. Does the price you listed for the LQ9 come with harness and accessories? There are a million small details that will eat a hole in your wallet fast in this game. Again, I'm just trying to save you some money.

The LY6 is gonna cost you more than say a LQ9, but its already got the heads you want. I was simply giving you an inexpensive route to follow. This stuff adds up fast. I have $4200 in my engine. That's with the cam kit, LS3 intake, and long tube headers. I know it can be had cheaper, because I paid way more for my LY6 than most on here. And of course you realize that going carb will add substantial cost, even if you have the carb already. The intake, and ignition control units are pricey. And you can always go to a 408 with your LY6 down the road. Does the price you listed for the LQ9 come with harness and accessories? There are a million small details that will eat a hole in your wallet fast in this game. Again, I'm just trying to save you some money.

I understand what you're saying. I was just looking to see if I got an LQ4/9 for $800-1000 and then the L92 heads for $700 if it would still be cheaper than just getting an LY6. It looks like LY6 prices are around $1800-2000 which would be a little more or just the same. I would rather get new heads for $700 than to buy an LY6 that comes with them with higher miles.

For carb vs injection I think it would be cheaper to stay with a carb since that would just be intake and ignition module for me rather than the expense of converting to injection.

Those prices say they come with complete engines that include accessories. I'm all open for money savers and input. Any help is much appreciated.

Look at ls3 heads. Same price and lighter valves. If you go with stock internals budget for fly cutting if you want to run a food size cam.
Tsnow has a good write up with pics on his. There is 6-7 others that update often also. There is a sticky just for conversions on our cars. Lots of good info.

Look at ls3 heads. Same price and lighter valves. If you go with stock internals budget for fly cutting if you want to run a food size cam.
Tsnow has a good write up with pics on his. There is 6-7 others that update often also. There is a sticky just for conversions on our cars. Lots of good info.

Do you have a link to the sticky? I didn't see it in the conversions section

I will go with LS3 heads then. I didn't know that, I thought they were the same.

why are you dead set on the carb? no offense but fuel injection will offer better tuning and reliability than a carb setup will plus you can skip out on the msd box. I would do as said and get an ly6 engine with decent miles and swap an ls3 intake on it throw in a vvt cam and have at it. The result will be a car that is fun on the street and drives like stock when you want it to.

If you get an lq9 you will have to buy the new heads new springs, new gaskets etc. you will have new heads but honestly there really shouldnt be any significant wear on a lower mileage engine like the ly6. In the end the ly6 may even bea tad cheaper, you will also get the benefit of vvt which means you can run a larger cam and still retain your down low grunt.

why are you dead set on the carb? no offense but fuel injection will offer better tuning and reliability than a carb setup will plus you can skip out on the msd box. I would do as said and get an ly6 engine with decent miles and swap an ls3 intake on it throw in a vvt cam and have at it. The result will be a car that is fun on the street and drives like stock when you want it to.

If you get an lq9 you will have to buy the new heads new springs, new gaskets etc. you will have new heads but honestly there really shouldnt be any significant wear on a lower mileage engine like the ly6. In the end the ly6 may even bea tad cheaper, you will also get the benefit of vvt which means you can run a larger cam and still retain your down low grunt.


I'm set on a carb because I want to keep the old school "no computer" kinda feel to the car. I know the ignition and that is computerized. My dad is a mechanic who I have learned all of my car skills from and my little brother is finishing up school for high performance to work on drag cars so they both have a good knowledge of carbs. I view tuning a carb easier than tuning fuel injection since I can do it myself. I've also read that it can be expensive to convert over to fuel injection (the rest of the car).

This summer I swapped an LS engine into my 1969 Camaro and retained the stock Muncie transmission. Quick time makes a bell housing that bolts up to the LS block and fits the Muncie trans. Everything fit perfectly and I was able to use the stock cross member. Here are the parts I used on my swap:

Quick time bell housing #QTI-RM-6036
Hooker motor mounts # HOK-12624HKR

Good luck with your project!

So these were the only two parts you needed for the swap? That makes it pretty easy. Did you encounter any other issues and how is it running for you now?

How much did you get the bell housing for? Summit is showing it for $578 didn't think it was that expensive....

i wonder if that bellhousing is all that was needed,flywheel?