Gears & Axles - Moser Rearend -leak near e-brake

I've had the rear end for about 6500 miles and changed the oil at the 250 mile mark and then at the 1250 mile mark and now its on the last oil change for a while, only used 80w-90 conventional as recommend by Moser as this is not a limited slip.

I have leakage around where the E-brake is where I believe it is coming from...or it is coming from the center of the rear end out along the axle tube, and then drips down onto that. A little of a back story is when I first got the rear end I actually had an improperly machined hub with the bolt pattern incorrectly drilled beyond tolerances but the wheel actually still went on, however when I tightened the lugs one of them bent due to the incorrect tolerances and I noticed it when tightening. Got it replaced and I'm certain I noticed it some miles after this.

could it be too full of fluid? I'm going to pull the top fill plug out and see if any comes out, I will check the level then, and I might even drain some out and then see if it does it again....its always been just a little

opinions?

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/2010%20Upgrades/P1000324_sml.jpg


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/2010%20Upgrades/P1000323_sml.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/2010%20Upgrades/P1000321_sml.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/2010%20Upgrades/P1000320_sml.jpg

I was just outside dealing with the same exact thing. I believe the nuts holding the axles in and backing plate could need to be tightened up. Mine where a little loose so I took it apart cleaned them up and used a little locktite.

moser replied to my email and asked me to check the breather and to also check fill level

My Moser did the same thing years ago. It was the axle seal damaged. replaced it and its been bone dry ever since.

moser replied to my email and asked me to check the breather and to also check fill level

https://www.brutespeed.com/Pictures/oil_fill.jpg

You mentioned "the top fill plug" What are you referring to? Bob

prob the o ring on the wheel bearing

the fill plug on the actual center section that I think is a 9/16 allen key.

A damaged axle seal wouldn't surprise me, as I ran with the bad machined hub for about 100 miles trying to figure things out


Going to get under the car this weekend and check it out, will check breather first, then fill level. If that is not it then I will pursue the axle seal(s)....

ok, update. Yes I know its been 28 days since my last post...busy around here.

checked it all out, breather is not clogged, fill level is just slightly below the 9/16ths allen key plug.

it has got to be either the damaged axle seal or that O-ring on the wheel bearing... I don't have an exploded view, so I don't know if those are the same parts or not.

replace the seal and the O-ring ,and use some RTV on the bearing .

i'm guessing take the wheel off, pull the brakes off, pull axle out and that the seal & O-ring are just inside that section?

the o-ring will be on the out side of the bearing ..you mite need a need 1.the oil seal is inside the housing tube.you will need to remove it and install a new 1 with a seal install tool.put some moly or grease on the rubber part of the seal .

no O-ring. Seal install tool... large circular device that matches metal surface on oil seal... got it... lol.

This is a moser 12 bolt, from center of rear end to outside it goes:
seats the axle splines inside the pumpkin, then there is an oil seal piece, then the press on axle bearing.

my passenger side axle oil seal was ripped in several spots, likely from contact with the spines when removing/installing at some point during my previous issue with the 0.009" out of tolerance axle I first had and installing the new axle.

Here are pictures of it:
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/axleout_zpsa44778a8.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/axletubeoutsidelip_zps390d30af.jpg

And here is what I don't like seeing right now:
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/bearingonaxle_zps882660c7.jpg

I think from when the car was ran with the out of tolerance wheel hub, as I know Spraker re-used the press on axle bearing with the replacement axle I got.

It also shows at the seating surface of the bearing: (Look at top of axle tube at bearing seating surface:
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/axleout_zpsa44778a8.jpg


Took the drivers side out to compare and check things out:
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/P1000391_zps4c0de346.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/P1000392_zps9c2549dd.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/P1000393_zps31f79d48.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/P1000394_zps0c546ed8.jpg

This side (drivers side) had never been taken apart since we purchased the unit from Spraker. Found what I think to be axle packaging/covering material in the axle tube. It was a paper/wax pieces.:
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/P1000396_zps7d7cc459.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/P1000399_zps949cffed.jpg


I don't like the look of the passenger side bearing & bearing seating surface on the axle tube. Did the out of tolerance hub cause this? the "spot" feels a little worn/rough slightly. Time for a complete replacement or shims of some sort??

Another thing that I'm about to verify, is I have Timken seals #473229 (which are the oil seal part numbers that Moser gave me) and I'm about to measure its ID and compare to the axle diameter... the axle is flared (diameter is more) towards the end and it seals around the axle pretty good, at least my new one does.

I cleaned all of this up and it looks/appears like the bearing is just showing the housing machined surface in it. did that make sense? The drivers side has it also, but not near as bad.

On my rear end I have the lip seal that seals the axle, and then I have the bearing. My bearings do NOT have an O-ring seal on them. I have been advised at this point to put it back together and if it leaks again, replace the axle bearings with ones that have the O-ring on them.

to update all on this, I installed fresh timken axle shaft seals pn#Timken Seal 51098 (http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_oil-seal-national_3270521-p?searchTerm=51098)

and I'm still getting oil on my e-brake and onto my brakes and wheels.

currently talking with moser to resolve issue.

I have went through this many times on mine. Looking at your pics I automatically see 3 leaks points which can be happening.

1) no RTV around the outer bearing surface
2) no RTV on the pad where the backing plate attaches w/ 4 bolts
3) axle seal (obvious)

....4) this happened to me once. Inner race got chewed up and oil bypassed through the bearing and came out of the front of the bearing where you see the black rubber bearing cover.

-use brake clean and remove oil from back of backing plate, mounting surface on end of axle tube, outside of bearing, and inside the tube where the bearing rests. Use a thin film on all of those surfaces when re-assembling. On the inner axle tube, put a thin film of grease in that inner lip. After all of that, put the car on stands and run it a bit to get the fluid to move around, them pull the wheels off and just remove the backing plates, don't pull the axles. Since you cleaned everything with brake clean, everything should be dry. If you see a new wet spot, this will help isolate the leak easier. May just be that front of the bearing leaking due to the inner race being chewed up. Driving the car it was hard to notice since mine is a full rod end suspension.

-To use the Moser bearings w/ o-ring (9508 b) the retainer is larger than the old style. This prevents you from running the inner axle seals because it will contact and make metal shavings. To remedy this, toss the retainers on a lathe and remove approx .100.

I no longer run axle tube seals, but I do run the 9508b bearings w/ the oring, and I use the RTV on all the surfaces that I mentioned. I have had no leaks at all.

The orange that I see in the pics on the outside of the bearing surface, may be some moisture that crept in due to no sealnt being used. That is how mine was when I first bought it (used) and had to rebuild and replace almost everything.

Below are some pics of what rubs, and how a bearing got chewed up and leaked from the front of the bearing.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p288/BlackDuk98/100_4907.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p288/BlackDuk98/100_4911.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p288/BlackDuk98/w011.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p288/BlackDuk98/w012.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p288/BlackDuk98/w019.jpg

I have went through this many times on mine. Looking at your pics I automatically see 3 leaks points which can be happening.

1) no RTV around the outer bearing surface
2) no RTV on the pad where the backing plate attaches w/ 4 bolts
3) axle seal (obvious)

....4) this happened to me once. Inner race got chewed up and oil bypassed through the bearing and came out of the front of the bearing where you see the black rubber bearing cover.

-use brake clean and remove oil from back of backing plate, mounting surface on end of axle tube, outside of bearing, and inside the tube where the bearing rests. Use a thin film on all of those surfaces when re-assembling. On the inner axle tube, put a thin film of grease in that inner lip. After all of that, put the car on stands and run it a bit to get the fluid to move around, them pull the wheels off and just remove the backing plates, don't pull the axles. Since you cleaned everything with brake clean, everything should be dry. If you see a new wet spot, this will help isolate the leak easier. May just be that front of the bearing leaking due to the inner race being chewed up. Driving the car it was hard to notice since mine is a full rod end suspension.

-To use the Moser bearings w/ o-ring (9508 b) the retainer is larger than the old style. This prevents you from running the inner axle seals because it will contact and make metal shavings. To remedy this, toss the retainers on a lathe and remove approx .100.

I no longer run axle tube seals, but I do run the 9508b bearings w/ the oring, and I use the RTV on all the surfaces that I mentioned. I have had no leaks at all.

The orange that I see in the pics on the outside of the bearing surface, may be some moisture that crept in due to no sealnt being used. That is how mine was when I first bought it (used) and had to rebuild and replace almost everything.

Below are some pics of what rubs, and how a bearing got chewed up and leaked from the front of the bearing.


you my friend are a life saver. Just when I came to look at this post I had thought about using some RTV around the non-O-ring bearings to see if it would fix it, but when I can install new O-ring bearings for $65 versus $40 for the regular I might as well not take my chances and go for the O-ring & RTV combo.

Thank you for posting this, I have already saved your entire post & pictures.

you my friend are a life saver. Just when I came to look at this post I had thought about using some RTV around the non-O-ring bearings to see if it would fix it, but when I can install new O-ring bearings for $65 versus $40 for the regular I might as well not take my chances and go for the O-ring & RTV combo.

Thank you for posting this, I have already saved your entire post & pictures.

Glad I can help. Just remember, if you still want to run those inner axles seals, the bearing retainer needs to be machined down a bit to eliminate the rubbing issue. But the inner tube seal is not needed anymore w/ the o-ring bearings. If you need any more pics just let me know, I have a ton on my comp from when I tore it apart, rebuilt, gear setup etc.

I used RTV aswell cheap and works

Just so everyone knows Moser's only solution is to get the O-ring bearings. The RTV will work also, but Moser didn't really mention that. They really haven't been helpful at all, even during the bullshit with my out of tolerance axle.

The shop/seller that I purchased my rear end from wanted to throw his two cents in the mix, so I thought I would share this:

"SEALS ON THE INNER PORTIONS OF THE REAR END HOUSING. IT IS A SEAL MADE BY A COMPANY CALLED SEALS-IT. IT IS A DIAPHRAM STYLE SEAL WHICH THE AXLE PASSES THRU AND PREVENTS GREASE FORM EVER GETTING OUT TO THE BEARING AREA . THIS HAS PROVEN TO BE MOST HELPFUL IN SOME 12 BOLT AND 9 IN HOUSINGS WE HAVE EXPERIENCED LEAKAGE WITH."

I'm to the point of taking this piece of shit moser rear end out, chopping it up and shipping it back to them with a nice letter and purchasing a different (Strange) rear end. I don't know the possible differences internally about sealing, if the Strange is any different but I'm fucking fed up with Moser and their attitude about all this crap they have caused.

At this point, I'm taking the car to the shop, having the rear end taken out and all of it checked along with the mentioned inner seals installed and new bearings installed on the axle ends as I don't trust that they are mechanically sound. I'll keep everyone updated.

Even with the new inner axle seals added, use a caliper and measure from where the bearing rests when fully bolted together, to where the new inner seal is.

Then measure from the same point on the back of the bearing to the end of the bearing retainer ring, I am not sure how this new inner seal is compared to the one that you have pictured previously, but it may come in contact w/ the new bearing retainer, but since you have them already pressed on, it's too late to machine the retainers down to avoid contact. This may not even be an issue w/ the new seals that you have been reccomended, but worth measuring before you may have to pull it apart due to grinding and metal shavings.

Another thing, have the out of tollerance axle situation been corrected? I may have missed where you said that.

Moser seems to be hit or miss. Bro had problems w/ studs drilled / tapped crooked but not horribe, I just sent my housing back to them to get narrowed and checked if it was bent (small bend which was corrected on their jig when the put the ends back on) The only thing is that they forgot to send my t-bolts back when I shipped it out so I had to make new ones, which mine are 10 times better than what most companies offer, and forgot my Moser axle stickers. But they did send me a new set of t-bolts for free in both sizes right away, but forgot my stickers again :( Nothing that would turn me off going w/ them again.

yeh, the out of tolerance situation got fixed after having to go through hell with them. had to machine my own an acceptable tolerance plate and try and put it on and record a video of it and send it to them as they didn't believe that it happened.

so here is what is being done around here in NC to prevent all leaks and woes.

That's a pretty nice idea. I have never seen that before, I will have to look into it some more but I won't be tearing my rear end apart to add them since I am not currently leaking. Nice seal points, easy installation, looks like a quality product. I can add these when I do bearings in a year. Usually every 1-2 years bearings get replaced since these are ball type. 4-8k mile usually since they really aren't for turning. I will file this away. Thanks for posting this :cheers:

no problem. cheers.

Spraker Racing, that is local to me, which is where I purchased my rear end from is doing this on 95% of all rears that they deal with. This way no leaks at all.

I'm going to be ordering the replacement axle seals, a water pump, and an alternator and have this all done between my shop I go to and Spraker. Luckily they are within two miles of each other ;) and within a half mile of the Mooresville dragstrip

My rear end is full of surprises, I keep finding these.

also when I pulled my axle out it gushed rear fluid out, maybe 2 oz worth. I looked at the driver side, haven't pulled it yet but it doesn't appear to be leaking. Why the hell is only one side leaking? Hmmm, is something else wrong with my passenger side of the rear end??

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/P1000676.jpg


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/P1000675.jpg

The outer seal rubber lip is perfectly ok.
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/Moser%20Rear%20End/P1000678.jpg

Check to see if the vent is plugged, may be building pressure. Is the car level? You need to pull the axles and back cover and shine lights and see what crap someone left behind. Then make sure the car is at level ride height before you refill the rear.

I think I know why my passenger side is leaking and not my drivers side.....

looking at it for 20 minutes today, I know that the bearing is the old bearing from the screwed up hub... and I looked around the inner race of the bearing, and that is the source of my oil.

Gotta replace the bearing (already got em') and I found more of the crap in the axle tube.

this should be fixed and done and over with in the next two weeks.

If you cut that old bearing up, I would be interested to see if it did what mine did in the pics that I posted. Hope you het it 100%. At first glance the crap you pulled out of there looked like a rubber glove, but now it looks more like paper. I don't understand how anyone cal leave that in there.

I finally got some further insightful information.

I wanted to add further explanation to those that buy rear ends, as the instructions given via phone or via manual in the shipping box, I want to elaborate a little on the 12 bolt rear ends.

With C-clip retained rear ends (12-bolt w/ C clip), the end bearing needs lubrication from the oil in the rear end (I believe from what I was told) and with a pumpkin filled to the point of fluid coming out of the FRONT allen key hole this is satisfactory. This is how the factory rear is.

HOWEVER, with NON-C-CLIP rear ends, and WITH SEALED bearings which I believe many have, you actually DO NOT WANT TO FILL THE REAR END UP to where it is coming out of the FRONT 9/16ths allen key (or whatever size it is at the front of the pumpkin).
you want it about 1/2 and inch to an 1 inch BELOW the hole.

If you still experience leaks, then you can also order seals from a company called Seals-it, here are a few pictures of their seals. they are installed where the axle tube meets the pumpkin and seal completely around the axle itself. Only thing with installing this type of seal, is that you have to completely take off the back cover, take out axles, take out the center section of the rear end.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/2010%20AutoFair/P1000707_zps3aedb4d3.jpg


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/2010%20AutoFair/P1000709_zps63400be8.jpg


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g242/zl1killaws6/2010%20AutoFair/P1000711_zpsad9b5d5f.jpg

I feel that the answer to the oil coming out of the axle tubes is due to people over filling them, as per MOSER instructions it simply states fill the pumpkin until it comes out of the front fill hole.

HOWEVER, this is not necessary, as with it that FULL, fluid is basically just at the axle tube area and likely creeping down the axle tube without you even moving the car. Sealed bearings do not need lubrication, in the C-clipped rears they use bearings that are NOT sealed and require this lubrication.

So with installing these inner seals from Seals-It, and not filling the rear up all the way that will for certain stop the leaking. I however feel from my experience with all my BS with MOSER that simply leaving it 1/2" or 1" below that front hole will be significant enough to not leak anymore. However, being I don't want to deal with this crap anymore I'm taking all the steps I can to ensure no more leaks.

ALSO PAY VERY close attention to what CENTER SECTION you are using.

Detroit True Trac (made by Eaton), NO SYNTHETICS, NO ADDITIVES - Straight conventional 80w-90 or next similar.

If you don't know, or don't believe whatever manufacturer you are purchasing the rear from, or better yet; YOU shouldn't trust what they tell you, and YOU should find out for yourself BY CALLING EATON.