Cadillac CTS-V - Dyno tune results from 2.6" pulley and 50/50 meth

So I took my car into Synergy Motorsports to get tuned after putting a 2.6 pulley on the maggie and adding 50/50 meth. Previously i had done a baseline with just the maggie and a stock 2.8 pulley and magnuson tune on a dynojet and got 452hp/425tq.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TiTOzLyvpoI/UB6yKGY0LpI/AAAAAAAAAZI/9igObH0sGCc/s720/dyno+sheet.jpg

Well the results on the dynapack were very different. baselined around 400hp/414tq with the meth and 2.6pulley still on the stock magnuson tune. Rick was able to get another 30hp and 30tq to put me at 430hp.443/tq.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LHpW9kUtU3c/UB6wQdJwo4I/AAAAAAAAAYs/IbKeEYwNJY0/s903/synergy+Dyno.jpg

Question #1: i did not realize that these two dynos would read such different numbers. I expected at a minimum to be around 480/450. Also rick's dyno chart only reads up to 6200rpm, not sure why he didn't run it to 6700rpm.

Question #2: should I go back to the dynojet i first got a baseline on to truly see what the appreciable gains were from the mods and tune?

Question #3: rick recommended 100% meth and that he could pull out another 20-30hp, thoughts?

Wouldn't 100% meth induce detonation? I run meth as a chem intercooler on my diesel and pushing it higher than 49% meth to 51% water will run the risk of inducing premature detonation.

Wouldn't 100% meth induce detonation? I run meth as a chem intercooler on my diesel and pushing it higher than 49% meth to 51% water will run the risk of inducing premature detonation.

I don't know why it would induce detonation? It is a fuel source just like gas but at a much higher octane (110 or so) so you just have to adjust the timing to account for the extra fuel.

I have a 07 with a maggie and put down 451 with stock pulley. I am interested in doing METH but I was told with our style supercharger the numbers arent that great. I'd love to know what the gains are. Did you mount your meth in the trunk or did you use you windshield washer resevoir? And what METH kit did you go with? How complicated was the install? Thanks

Doesn't meth corrode the MP112 blades something awful?

What system do you have for meth ? Some are not rated for 100% meth. 80/20 is about the most I would run to keep the advantage of water.

Doesn't meth corrode the MP112 blades something awful?

No, because i have the nozzle far enough away from the throttle body that it atomizes before entering the rotors. many people have run meth on their roots chargers with not issue of damaging the coatings.

I have a 07 with a maggie and put down 451 with stock pulley. I am interested in doing METH but I was told with our style supercharger the numbers arent that great. I'd love to know what the gains are. Did you mount your meth in the trunk or did you use you windshield washer resevoir? And what METH kit did you go with? How complicated was the install? Thanks

i used the windshield washer tank as a meth tank because it comes with a low level sensor built in. I am using the cooling mist stage 1 kit i believe. very simple kit, very easy to install. http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.aspx?pid=cmstage1

What system do you have for meth ? Some are not rated for 100% meth. 80/20 is about the most I would run to keep the advantage of water.

I've read that but i'm not sure why it would make a big difference for the pumps one way or another..

I don't know why it would induce detonation? It is a fuel source just like gas but at a much higher octane (110 or so) so you just have to adjust the timing to account for the extra fuel.

After doing some more thinking on the matter, It may have something to do with the 16.8:1 compression ratio that duramaxes run. Entirely possible I don't know that much about running meth on a gas motor.

i used the windshield washer tank as a meth tank because it comes with a low level sensor built in. I am using the cooling mist stage 1 kit i believe. very simple kit, very easy to install.

So what happens when some poor, unsuspecting fool hits the windshield wiper spray button?

http://www.jet-fighter-rides.com/aaa/2009/07/g-force.jpg

Running 50/50 will reduce your iats more then 100% meth. It truly depends if you want the meth to reduce heatsoak or use it for the octane. I run 100% meth but I use it mainly for the octane and I get a great drop in iats anyways with the intercooler and Meth. My iats in the intake manifold are ambient or less even In 95 degree heat.

With the roots style I don't get the same cooling benefits as centrifugal. My iats during the Dyno were in the 120s. I have considered relocating that meth to after the rotors but haven't found a way to do that and be able to get accurate iats.

I had a meth kit on my E-Force for a few thousand miles. I was only seeing a 10-15 degree drop at 19GPH 50/50 pre rotors.

I had a meth kit on my E-Force for a few thousand miles. I was only seeing a 10-15 degree drop at 19GPH 50/50 pre rotors.

Where were you measuring IATs?

i would not tune for meth.

i would not tune for meth.

Tuner insisted that I did as my AFR's were super rich otherwise. This is a weekend car and I understand that the car is now "meth dependent". But there are many other parts that could fail and kill my engine too. Plus if it does.... then I have an excuse to go bigger.

first thing i would fix is your boost issue.. your basline sheet says it all and why your down on power.. the boost should come on almost immediately and stay there in a strait line on the graph.. maggies usually fall off around 5800 and youll see it lose it breath.. but the way the graph is now it doesnt look like the belt is biting that well.

ill bet if you fix that issue and tune without the meth youll be happier. you can also turn the controller down so its not spraying a crap load of meth to where your afrs are buried rich. use the stuff as a cooling aid...meth dependant is like playing the lottery. i have that experience

first thing i would fix is your boost issue.. your basline sheet says it all and why your down on power.. the boost should come on almost immediately and stay there in a strait line on the graph.. maggies usually fall off around 5800 and youll see it lose it breath.. but the way the graph is now it doesnt look like the belt is biting that well.

ill bet if you fix that issue and tune without the meth youll be happier. you can also turn the controller down so its not spraying a crap load of meth to where your afrs are buried rich. use the stuff as a cooling aid...meth dependant is like playing the lottery. i have that experience

I'm running the simplest controller (A relay) it's either on or off, I control the spray by nozzle size. And by baseline which graph are you referring to, the dynapak or dynojet?


Also do you have better belt recommendation or way to improve the belt bite?

dude if you have no controller how does the meth come on? there has to be a boost reference so the meth knows when to turn on. i would deff not tune for meth if you dont have a top notch kit thats adjustable. mine has a starting boost point (say 5lbs) and a full blast (say 8) thats comes on progressively. i have since removed it and will not be using meth.

as far as belts go you can go down to the parts store and find the biggest tensioner pulley u can get.. i used the V2 acc tensioner pulley..it helped tighten things up.also try an inch shorter belt.. but i was reffering to the dynojet sheet since its the only graph that shows boost.. boost should come on full and stay in a semi strait line.maggies tend to fall off a lb or two when in the upper rpms cuz they run out of steam.

the waves in the graph show slippage and or something going on with with the bypass valve. check your hoses running from the bypass to the snout for cracks.. make sure the valve is open at idle and closed fully when stomped on.

I would not get another dyno....it would pretty much be meaningless since they all read differently.

50/50 is standard, most move on to 100% in a short period of time, but that is when sprayed *after* the air has been charged. I would see what happens when incrementally increasing timing with 100% meth on a Maggie. Also, don't worry about 100% meth causing detonation on a gas motor as it can with a diesel, meth and gasoline both have a much lower flash point than diesel.

The very few documented tests that have done spraying before the throttle body on a roots type supercharger have yielded minimal results, usually not worth the price of the installation. I don't know what IAT sensor they were using, but after witnessing the difference between the Maggie supplied LS1 Camaro IAT sensor and the Omega thermistor, I would argue anyone's data that was not using one. The *potential* degradation of the rotor coating has been called into question frequently, although I do not believe there has been any positive proof of this from the Cobra/Lightning or the supercharged 3800 guys.

Also, you can tune for meth with regard to timing (adding timing), DO NOT adjust the VE, MAF, or PE AFR's to compensate. You cannot accurately gauge at what rate the meth is burning using AFR, you must use the Lambda scale to gauge any alcohol content through the combustion process...which the OE OS cannot do.

dude if you have no controller how does the meth come on? there has to be a boost reference so the meth knows when to turn on. i would deff not tune for meth if you dont have a top notch kit thats adjustable. mine has a starting boost point (say 5lbs) and a full blast (say 8) thats comes on progressively. i have since removed it and will not be using meth.

as far as belts go you can go down to the parts store and find the biggest tensioner pulley u can get.. i used the V2 acc tensioner pulley..it helped tighten things up.also try an inch shorter belt.. but i was reffering to the dynojet sheet since its the only graph that shows boost.. boost should come on full and stay in a semi strait line.maggies tend to fall off a lb or two when in the upper rpms cuz they run out of steam.

the waves in the graph show slippage and or something going on with with the bypass valve. check your hoses running from the bypass to the snout for cracks.. make sure the valve is open at idle and closed fully when stomped on.

I do have a controller, it's a relay with a reference boost line running into it. When it senses boost it closes the switch and turns on the system. It is adjustable but not progressively. I have it set to start spraying as soon as it sees any boost. I have put on a new belt since the first dynojet reading. I have been looking into getting the V2 acc tensioner pulley but when I went to Autozone they had no information on it or idea about it. Where did you pick yours up?

I would not get another dyno....it would pretty much be meaningless since they all read differently.

50/50 is standard, most move on to 100% in a short period of time, but that is when sprayed *after* the air has been charged. I would see what happens when incrementally increasing timing with 100% meth on a Maggie. Also, don't worry about 100% meth causing detonation on a gas motor as it can with a diesel, meth and gasoline both have a much lower flash point than diesel.

The very few documented tests that have done spraying before the throttle body on a roots type supercharger have yielded minimal results, usually not worth the price of the installation. I don't know what IAT sensor they were using, but after witnessing the difference between the Maggie supplied LS1 Camaro IAT sensor and the Omega thermistor, I would argue anyone's data that was not using one. The *potential* degradation of the rotor coating has been called into question frequently, although I do not believe there has been any positive proof of this from the Cobra/Lightning or the supercharged 3800 guys.

Also, you can tune for meth with regard to timing (adding timing), DO NOT adjust the VE, MAF, or PE AFR's to compensate. You cannot accurately gauge at what rate the meth is burning using AFR, you must use the Lambda scale to gauge any alcohol content through the combustion process...which the OE OS cannot do.

I was just considering going back to the original dynojet i got the baseline done at to get a better comparison of before and after meth + 2.6 pulley. I figured going back to the same dyno would read in a similar fashion to the first time i ran it on there.

I am running the omega thermistor mod on my mp112 so the temperatures should be accurate.

I did a lot of reading about the rotor coating and degradation. I have never found out if the mp112 even comes with coated rotors. But from my understanding placing the injection nozzle right after the MAF gives it enough time to atomize into the air due to its low flash point. Placing the nozzle to close to or after the throttle body may not allow enough time for the methanol to atomize. My nozzle is injecting right after the MAF.

good read on meth injection on rotors http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107842

Since my injection is pre-charge, am I getting any benefit from running water? Are the cooling effects negligible enough that moving up to higher meth might give better results?

The rotor pack is not exclusive to Magnuson...they are manufactured by Eaton (who coats the rotors during assembly). The Maggie rotors are the same style as used in the Cobra and Lightning. Eaton still supplies the rotor packs to GM and Ford for the CTS-V, ZR-1, GT500, etc.

And yes, all Eaton 112 rotors are coated also.

A lot of cobra guys spray pre TB but the majority spray after for the best results. Im not sure what it would entail on the V but it may be worth calling a reputable Meth injection company to find out the right way to do it.

As for tuning for meth there are ways to control timing according to IATs, thats the safest way to do it. But like anything performance related there is ALWAYS gonna be a risk of something letting go. If your that scared to run meth and tune for it then dont run it or get out of the performance game. Risk vs Reward and ill tune for meth anyday for the gains ive seen.

A lot of cobra guys spray pre TB but the majority spray after for the best results. Im not sure what it would entail on the V but it may be worth calling a reputable Meth injection company to find out the right way to do it.

As for tuning for meth there are ways to control timing according to IATs, thats the safest way to do it. But like anything performance related there is ALWAYS gonna be a risk of something letting go. If your that scared to run meth and tune for it then dont run it or get out of the performance game. Risk vs Reward and ill tune for meth anyday for the gains ive seen.

I would love to inject it post charge, but where would i locate the IAT to so that it can account for the change and accurately monitor the air temps?

I would love to inject it post charge, but where would i locate the IAT to so that it can account for the change and accurately monitor the air temps?

Im not really familiar with the maggie setups, try giving the company who made your meth kit a call and see if they have any experience.

lots of useful meth information along with mixing ratios, etc.
http://forums.evolutionm.net/water-alcohol-injection-nos/372627-injection-mixtures-101-a.html

i made 485/480 yesterday when i put the 2.6 back on with the currant setup in the sig..numbers before with the 2.8 was 476/460. NO METH on either numbers.

i picked up all the power under the curve and left a nice flat hp line between 5300-6500 which puts the power right in between shifts. woke the car right up. im seeing 10lbs

Where were you measuring IATs?

The E-Force measures after the rotors and intercooler on the passenger side.

The E-Force measures after the rotors and intercooler on the passenger side.

same with the maggie

I would love to inject it post charge, but where would i locate the IAT to so that it can account for the change and accurately monitor the air temps?

Here ya go. Get an Omega thermistor and get it installed like this.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/172178-rpm-dyno-day-post-up-your-6.html

Here ya go. Get an Omega thermistor and get it installed like this.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/172178-rpm-dyno-day-post-up-your-6.html

Already done. installed prior to tune :thumb:

So I took my car back to the original dyno where i put down 452/425 max (2.8 pulley and volant intake) and was only able to best 423/436 (2.6 pulley and 50/50 meth) despite the boost going up a little over 1 pound (A/F can be ignored as the o2 sensor was not hooked up to my car but i have a wideband and i know it runs around 12:1). So I am really at a loss.. it doesn't look like belt slip to me. The car feel like it pulls harder. The only one thing i can think is that I'm running 275/45/18 in the rear now and that's about 1" taller than stock, does the dyno need to be told this because it is essentially like changing my gearing? The guy at the shop insisted it did not.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-v8pTOrVaOx0/UFPEgb989II/AAAAAAAAAb8/BSWZg7rnimo/s903/2012-09-14

Your effective gear ratio has been reduced. You're probably running at an effective 3.55 or 3.42 rear end ratio, which makes your higher RWTQ all the more puzzling.

Your effective gear ratio has been reduced. You're probably running at an effective 3.55 or 3.42 rear end ratio, which makes your higher RWTQ all the more puzzling.

The rwtq and rwhp should be higher significantly in my opinion. the tire difference in turns of revs/mile is like 4% so if i assume the numbers should be 4% higher that still doesn't get me back to my baseline dyno after more boost, meth and a custom tune.


FYI I did have to go back to the stock airbox to fit the alradco radiator but I do not believe the airflow is vastly improved with volant's airbox and filter (to the tune of 25 + rwhp).

FYI I did have to go back to the stock airbox to fit the alradco radiator but I do not believe the airflow is vastly improved with volant's airbox and filter (to the tune of 25 + rwhp).

Might be, once you factor in a couple of percent error for normal variations in performance and your heavier drive wheels.

Think you can fit a Lingenfelter airbox in there? From what I've heard, the Volant airbox was a IAT deathtrap.

Might be, once you factor in a couple of percent error for normal variations in performance and your heavier drive wheels.

Think you can fit a Lingenfelter airbox in there? From what I've heard, the Volant airbox was a IAT deathtrap.

Maggie's relocate the IAT to just before the intake manifold while exiting the supercharger. so my IATs read between 120-140. The meth definitely helps them stay down but they are still going to be high due to their location.

Maggie's relocate the IAT to just before the intake manifold while exiting the supercharger. so my IATs read between 120-140. The meth definitely helps them stay down but they are still going to be high due to their location.

My point was that the Volant airbox was adding actual heat, which would be picked up anywhere. Never having had one, I wouldn't know. Ever touch your airbox near the radiator side after a drive? I can do that on my Lingenfelter--the inside (filter side) is massively cooler. And I've been working with a guy on the Cadillac Forums to look into adding a huge layer of insulation to the airbox to further bring temperature down.

I no longer have the volant. Went back to the factory box.

When I ran meth on my srt-4 I ran it 15% ish meth. I didnt need the octane as much as the cooling. I found the more meth i ran the more knock i had as I started adding more distilled water to the mix the knock subsided.

Are you running 12.1 commanded AFR in PE? I would lower that to 11.7 - 11.8 from 3800 RPM on up.

I don't know how the tuner did it but that is just what he told me it was running and u need to double check it on my wideband.

I need to double check*