Flat Plane Crank LS1 Build
09-01-2012, 06:50 AM
#1
Teching In
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flat Plane Crank LS1 Build Hello all. First post and I am going to try to make it a good one. I am building an SLC here soon and trying to decide on which engine to put in it.
I have done the searchs and found a few threads on the flat plane crank, but do not see anyone finishing them up. I have even seen somewhere someone had a crank all the way made up but bailed on the project later on.
I think I have gone crazy, but I hope in a good way, but I have been pondering this for a while. I really want an exotic sounding engine that is unique for the SLC. The V8 LS sounding engines are ok to me, just not an exotic scream. I want the scream and need the scream. I do not know why, but I have a sickness.
I am personally not interested in all out power. I find that now I have been tracking cars and racing for about 10 years I have seen myself go through the bell shaped curve of hp desire. At first I started out with an 85hp MR2 on the track and thought it was fun, but wanted more hp. Eventually got to 500rwhp and was not a great driver at the time and way too much car for me. Now I feel I am much better driver and do not need the high hp numbers and find it more fun to drive a car closer to the limit on all aspects of the track just as enjoyable as going 20-30mph more at the end of the straights. Finding the limits of the car and pushing yourself to do better at those limits is satisfying. Plus, my car will be a street car so the feeling I get from driving it each day is more than all out speed. The sound of the engine has a huge impact to me on the feel of the car of this type.
My plan for my engine was/is a Toyota V6, 3mz-fe and then twin turbo it later. Rev to about 8,000. To really ring it out and do it right it would be about $6000 for all the items and build up the motor. So not a bad way to get to 450-500rwhp. If I wanted 600-700rwhp it would be like $12K. Now I already have the engine, ecu, harness for the NA and about 230-250rwhp. So I think I might put that in at first as I have it and know it will work fine. Or just get a low HP LS1 used and start with that. This way I get use to the car and get it mainly sorted out. The fuel system is basically the same and oil coolers and such can be swapped back and forth as needed for either setup.
So after saying all that and seeing the LS1's can be had so cheap I am really considering doing a custom flat plane crank LS1. Get the crank custom, cam and con rods custom made. Upgrade the valve train to rev to 8000-8500. Now I just need to figure out what the right specs are.
Now I know the engine will vibrate more and that is ok if a little more so it will need to be de stroked.
Here is what I am thinking and the math I have done.
LS1 3.9 bore 3.622 stroke for 5.68L
F430 3.62 bore 3.19 stroke for 4.3L
F458 3.7 bore and 3.2 stroke for 4.5L
S2000 3.4 bore and 3.3 stroke for 4.0L (if V8)
3SGTE 3.39 bore 3.39 stroke for 4.0L (if V8)
3mz-fe 3.62 bore 3.4 stroke for 4.6L (if V8)
Carrera 3.86 bore 2.9 stroke for 4.4L (if V8)
HSV-010 3.6 bore 2.5 stroke for 3.3L, but they rev to like 11K and limited to 3.3L I believe
So after looking at these engines with the bore and stroke I am thinking a few things. The F430, 458, S2000 and 3sgte all hover around the 3.2-3.3 range and all can rev to about 8500-9000 without much of a problem. The engines that seem to rev higher have a shorter stroke and with the LS1 it is limited to the valve train to get it higher. I bring up the 3sgte because I built my old engine to rev to 10,000 and never have an issue, but it was dohc built so I do not expect that high. The 3mz-fe engine if I put in some stiffer valve springs 8500 is possible. 8,000-8500 should be reasonable I would think for the LS1 with upgraded valve train from what I have read.
So I am thinking if it is 3.9 bore and 3.2 stroke we would have 5.0L V8 and have a con rod ratio of about 2.05 and might be ok to rev high. I know 1L bike engines that rev to like 12000 or so have a 2.12 con rod ratio. Or 3.9 bore and 3.4 stroke for 5.3L and con rod ratio of 1.86. The other option range is 3.9 bore and 3.0 stroke for 4.7L and con rod ratio of 2.25. I just wonder which would be better and how much more vibrations would it be.
It could have about 400rwhp or more and maybe 450 crank, give or take. TQ would be a bit lower and hp higher since higher up on the curve, but that would be fine for me. The car should weight about 2300-2400lbs when done.
On cams looking up higher rev cams I see the 260-270 degrees and would need more specifics to learn just what I want there, but I used 272-280 and had peak power at 8500 with the 4cyl turbo. Nascar teams seem to have similar cam specs to rev to 8500. I might have a loopy idle, but I am not sure if it will be all that bad. I just upped my old 4cyl to about 1000-1100rpm idle and it was all good. I know I would have to do solid lifters, stronger dual or tripple valve springs and Ti retainers with all lightweight items.
Con rods, just order custom ones that are the length needed and try to get a nice light weight set. Maybe even Alum ones if I am ok with replacing them after like 15-20K miles. The lighter ones would be nice and alum is usually cheaper.
Pistons, some light weight forged pistons or just keep stock? Reving higher might need something specific there, but maybe not.
EMS- I am thinking the stock ECU might be able to handle it. I would just need to get a system to tune it a bit for higher revs. Just need to rewire the injectors and coils for the correct firing order and maybe splice some together. It not I could use an AEM 4 that will run a 4cyl and those are way less money than a 6-8-10 cyl versions.
Exhaust. 8-4-2-1 system or similar. So 4-2-1 on each side equal length to match it up and should sound amazing.
Intake. I might look into short individual throttle bodies or keep that stock and see how it works.
On the cost. Crank 2-3K, cam 1k, con rods 1-2K, valve train 1-2k or less (goto love LS items). So cheap side if I can use the stock con rods and pistons maybe 4-5K and higher end if all items are needed and EMS maybe 8K.
What are you thoughts on the project? Recomendations for a shop to make the crank, cam and con rods?
Thanks for the help,
Troy
I have done the searchs and found a few threads on the flat plane crank, but do not see anyone finishing them up. I have even seen somewhere someone had a crank all the way made up but bailed on the project later on.
I think I have gone crazy, but I hope in a good way, but I have been pondering this for a while. I really want an exotic sounding engine that is unique for the SLC. The V8 LS sounding engines are ok to me, just not an exotic scream. I want the scream and need the scream. I do not know why, but I have a sickness.
I am personally not interested in all out power. I find that now I have been tracking cars and racing for about 10 years I have seen myself go through the bell shaped curve of hp desire. At first I started out with an 85hp MR2 on the track and thought it was fun, but wanted more hp. Eventually got to 500rwhp and was not a great driver at the time and way too much car for me. Now I feel I am much better driver and do not need the high hp numbers and find it more fun to drive a car closer to the limit on all aspects of the track just as enjoyable as going 20-30mph more at the end of the straights. Finding the limits of the car and pushing yourself to do better at those limits is satisfying. Plus, my car will be a street car so the feeling I get from driving it each day is more than all out speed. The sound of the engine has a huge impact to me on the feel of the car of this type.
My plan for my engine was/is a Toyota V6, 3mz-fe and then twin turbo it later. Rev to about 8,000. To really ring it out and do it right it would be about $6000 for all the items and build up the motor. So not a bad way to get to 450-500rwhp. If I wanted 600-700rwhp it would be like $12K. Now I already have the engine, ecu, harness for the NA and about 230-250rwhp. So I think I might put that in at first as I have it and know it will work fine. Or just get a low HP LS1 used and start with that. This way I get use to the car and get it mainly sorted out. The fuel system is basically the same and oil coolers and such can be swapped back and forth as needed for either setup.
So after saying all that and seeing the LS1's can be had so cheap I am really considering doing a custom flat plane crank LS1. Get the crank custom, cam and con rods custom made. Upgrade the valve train to rev to 8000-8500. Now I just need to figure out what the right specs are.
Now I know the engine will vibrate more and that is ok if a little more so it will need to be de stroked.
Here is what I am thinking and the math I have done.
LS1 3.9 bore 3.622 stroke for 5.68L
F430 3.62 bore 3.19 stroke for 4.3L
F458 3.7 bore and 3.2 stroke for 4.5L
S2000 3.4 bore and 3.3 stroke for 4.0L (if V8)
3SGTE 3.39 bore 3.39 stroke for 4.0L (if V8)
3mz-fe 3.62 bore 3.4 stroke for 4.6L (if V8)
Carrera 3.86 bore 2.9 stroke for 4.4L (if V8)
HSV-010 3.6 bore 2.5 stroke for 3.3L, but they rev to like 11K and limited to 3.3L I believe
So after looking at these engines with the bore and stroke I am thinking a few things. The F430, 458, S2000 and 3sgte all hover around the 3.2-3.3 range and all can rev to about 8500-9000 without much of a problem. The engines that seem to rev higher have a shorter stroke and with the LS1 it is limited to the valve train to get it higher. I bring up the 3sgte because I built my old engine to rev to 10,000 and never have an issue, but it was dohc built so I do not expect that high. The 3mz-fe engine if I put in some stiffer valve springs 8500 is possible. 8,000-8500 should be reasonable I would think for the LS1 with upgraded valve train from what I have read.
So I am thinking if it is 3.9 bore and 3.2 stroke we would have 5.0L V8 and have a con rod ratio of about 2.05 and might be ok to rev high. I know 1L bike engines that rev to like 12000 or so have a 2.12 con rod ratio. Or 3.9 bore and 3.4 stroke for 5.3L and con rod ratio of 1.86. The other option range is 3.9 bore and 3.0 stroke for 4.7L and con rod ratio of 2.25. I just wonder which would be better and how much more vibrations would it be.
It could have about 400rwhp or more and maybe 450 crank, give or take. TQ would be a bit lower and hp higher since higher up on the curve, but that would be fine for me. The car should weight about 2300-2400lbs when done.
On cams looking up higher rev cams I see the 260-270 degrees and would need more specifics to learn just what I want there, but I used 272-280 and had peak power at 8500 with the 4cyl turbo. Nascar teams seem to have similar cam specs to rev to 8500. I might have a loopy idle, but I am not sure if it will be all that bad. I just upped my old 4cyl to about 1000-1100rpm idle and it was all good. I know I would have to do solid lifters, stronger dual or tripple valve springs and Ti retainers with all lightweight items.
Con rods, just order custom ones that are the length needed and try to get a nice light weight set. Maybe even Alum ones if I am ok with replacing them after like 15-20K miles. The lighter ones would be nice and alum is usually cheaper.
Pistons, some light weight forged pistons or just keep stock? Reving higher might need something specific there, but maybe not.
EMS- I am thinking the stock ECU might be able to handle it. I would just need to get a system to tune it a bit for higher revs. Just need to rewire the injectors and coils for the correct firing order and maybe splice some together. It not I could use an AEM 4 that will run a 4cyl and those are way less money than a 6-8-10 cyl versions.
Exhaust. 8-4-2-1 system or similar. So 4-2-1 on each side equal length to match it up and should sound amazing.
Intake. I might look into short individual throttle bodies or keep that stock and see how it works.
On the cost. Crank 2-3K, cam 1k, con rods 1-2K, valve train 1-2k or less (goto love LS items). So cheap side if I can use the stock con rods and pistons maybe 4-5K and higher end if all items are needed and EMS maybe 8K.
What are you thoughts on the project? Recomendations for a shop to make the crank, cam and con rods?
Thanks for the help,
Troy
09-01-2012, 10:59 AM
#3
LPE built a flat plane turbo'ed 358 LS, rumored to make over 1K @ 5000rpms and they spun it to over 9000rpm....
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=402101
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=402103
https://ls1tech.com/forums/general-l...lpe-358-a.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/single-di...ne-358-8s.html
Good luck with your project......sounds cool.
Thanks............
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=402101
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=402103
https://ls1tech.com/forums/general-l...lpe-358-a.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/single-di...ne-358-8s.html
Good luck with your project......sounds cool.
Thanks............
Last edited by LSOHOLIC; 09-01-2012 at 11:21 AM.
09-01-2012, 03:44 PM
#5
That's an awful lot of money When it seems as though the two biggest project goals are exotic sound and high revs...just buy a used Ferrari engine lol....sounds too complicated for goals involved...I will stay tuned and see what direction you go with, I can appreciate someone thinking outside the box...
On a related note I have seen that you can purchase a nationwide/sprint cup engine in the 12-18 dollar range and you can rev to 9k all day no problemo...dial back the power via restrictor plates and tune the exhaust via valving, path, size, and flow...just throwing it out there
On a related note I have seen that you can purchase a nationwide/sprint cup engine in the 12-18 dollar range and you can rev to 9k all day no problemo...dial back the power via restrictor plates and tune the exhaust via valving, path, size, and flow...just throwing it out there
09-01-2012, 04:44 PM
#6
This would be cool............
Basic overview......
3.350 by 4.125 ERL
13-14:1
Darrin Morgan LS7's or Cary's Mozez
big nasty bump stick
mohawks
ITB
And sound like this flat plane ITB setup......
It could be real cool........
Basic overview......
3.350 by 4.125 ERL
13-14:1
Darrin Morgan LS7's or Cary's Mozez
big nasty bump stick
mohawks
ITB
And sound like this flat plane ITB setup......
It could be real cool........
The following users liked this post:
Jetson (01-06-2023)
Trending Topics
09-01-2012, 06:23 PM
#8
Teching In
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good news. I found someone who makes custom cranks and that is all they do. They are familiar with flat plane cranks and have done them before. They knew what they were talking about so this is good.
We talked about different stroke lengths and what would be best on a street and track car so that is sorted. They also said they can make the crank super light, but did not recommend that. He said he could balance out a lot of the vibrations from being a flat plane but not all and would feel like a 4cyl. So not bad at all to me.
They also can do a package deals and get custom connecting rods and pistons. I might look at just getting some off the shelf JE or Mahle pistons/rings. Maybe some cheaper than Carrillo rods to save money. So there are details to figure out but those are minor options and the huge hurdle is figured out.
Now I just need money. Ha
We talked about different stroke lengths and what would be best on a street and track car so that is sorted. They also said they can make the crank super light, but did not recommend that. He said he could balance out a lot of the vibrations from being a flat plane but not all and would feel like a 4cyl. So not bad at all to me.
They also can do a package deals and get custom connecting rods and pistons. I might look at just getting some off the shelf JE or Mahle pistons/rings. Maybe some cheaper than Carrillo rods to save money. So there are details to figure out but those are minor options and the huge hurdle is figured out.
Now I just need money. Ha
09-01-2012, 08:27 PM
#9
Yeah, the flat plane crank was not anywhere near as cheap as you're saying when I was looking. That would be great if they were. SO, now that you just found out that someone makes these.. what did they quote you?
This does sound like a rich guy dream sort of thing. Not much advantage or any advantage at all for a whole lot of money. Just because it's "rare" lol. So if you're low on money, this just doesn't make any sense at all.
I wish you luck, and I hope you have fun with it if you pull the trigger on the crank.
This does sound like a rich guy dream sort of thing. Not much advantage or any advantage at all for a whole lot of money. Just because it's "rare" lol. So if you're low on money, this just doesn't make any sense at all.
I wish you luck, and I hope you have fun with it if you pull the trigger on the crank.
09-01-2012, 09:32 PM
#10
One thing I was wondering...how about the cam, I guess it would have to be custom ground with a new firing order...and coil pack rewire to change firing order along with the fuel injectors? I'm not sure, just thhrowing that out there and asking too.
09-01-2012, 11:32 PM
#13
Teching In
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The crank is $2500. I know I am crazy and if I wanted to make the same or more hp for probably less money then I would just get an LS376/480hp, but nah for now. I am going to try to do this. It should rev fast and nice, sound sick, have higher rpm power and be a ton of fun for me. The scream of the engine, I can not wait and who has really done it so that is a fun part. I figure about 500hp up high and in a 2300lb car it should be fun. The engine sound just goes with the exotic look and feel of the SLC.
so I have the bore and stroke now, 3.9 x 3.187 for 4998cc or 5.0L. Con rods, maybe Carillo or Eagle H beems. Rod will be 6.560" CC with 1.889 bottom bearing and .927 top. Piston JE with about 10-10.5 C/R. So that is the bottom end.
Top end I am still figuring things out to rev high. I am thinking solid roller lifters, good rockers, dual valve springs, ti retainers, ferrea valves 2.05/1.6, port and polish. I was hoping to find someone who offered all the valvetrain items as a package to match together, but have not yet so if you all know of something let me know.
On the cam something in the 270ish range and I need to figure out the lift yet. I was looking up nascar cams so something like that.
Martin- email me and we can talk about the cam. Troy@Trueleo.com
so I have the bore and stroke now, 3.9 x 3.187 for 4998cc or 5.0L. Con rods, maybe Carillo or Eagle H beems. Rod will be 6.560" CC with 1.889 bottom bearing and .927 top. Piston JE with about 10-10.5 C/R. So that is the bottom end.
Top end I am still figuring things out to rev high. I am thinking solid roller lifters, good rockers, dual valve springs, ti retainers, ferrea valves 2.05/1.6, port and polish. I was hoping to find someone who offered all the valvetrain items as a package to match together, but have not yet so if you all know of something let me know.
On the cam something in the 270ish range and I need to figure out the lift yet. I was looking up nascar cams so something like that.
Martin- email me and we can talk about the cam. Troy@Trueleo.com
09-01-2012, 11:47 PM
#14
TECH Regular
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Waxahachie, Tx
Posts: 445
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
270???? that's more a 5.7 size.
Buddies 302 went to 7800 with a 252 solid before it nosed over and your heads we'll be so much better.
You'll want Jesel or similar for that rpm.
Buddies 302 went to 7800 with a 252 solid before it nosed over and your heads we'll be so much better.
You'll want Jesel or similar for that rpm.
09-02-2012, 12:00 AM
#15
Teching In
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is a big part of it, but having around 500hp on tap sure fills in the blanks in a 2300lb car. I guess I got jaded when I had my 3sgte rev to 10,000 and had 525rwhp. My favorite is when I drove it around at 425rwhp and the same revs. That was so fun so a NA V8 at 8,500 and 500 hp with the sound in a car looking and feeling as sick as an SLC should feel makes my day.
09-02-2012, 02:28 AM
#16
That is a big part of it, but having around 500hp on tap sure fills in the blanks in a 2300lb car. I guess I got jaded when I had my 3sgte rev to 10,000 and had 525rwhp. My favorite is when I drove it around at 425rwhp and the same revs. That was so fun so a NA V8 at 8,500 and 500 hp with the sound in a car looking and feeling as sick as an SLC should feel makes my day.
$2500 is half of what I was finding 2 years ago for that crank. Good to know it's practically affordable at this point.
She just got her fresh paint.
Last edited by 95ONE; 09-02-2012 at 02:33 AM.
09-02-2012, 02:49 AM
#17
I never thought that crank would be near that cheap! It's not much more than a standard pattern good forged crank!
Beautiful car 95ONE! I'm currently building a full custom based off of a 74 914 with a full tube chassis and a turbocharged Honda drivetrain...I couldn't imagine having the power of an ls motor on it lol...here you go!
Beautiful car 95ONE! I'm currently building a full custom based off of a 74 914 with a full tube chassis and a turbocharged Honda drivetrain...I couldn't imagine having the power of an ls motor on it lol...here you go!
09-02-2012, 07:21 AM
#18
Teching In
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WOW. Nice car. I love to rev engines and I am one of those guys. I come from 4cyl's and bikes. So even if I did not want to do a flat plane crank engine I would still be getting all the other parts. The crank is really the only one off item. That is why the ls1 is so nice to me. I am used to make custom parts and a 4cyl costing 2x as much as this with less Hp. The reason I chosen the ls1. I will order the crank first and go from there. I looked at Jessel and if in budget they are nice. I need to do more research on this part.
The slc is a kit car. Mid engine.
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...slccanada2.jpg