What do you think?
12-18-2012, 06:13 PM
#1
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What do you think? Hi, i have a 95 camaro z28, it used to be a 6 speed. I have a turbo 350 trans, 3000 stall, pulleys, cold air intake, gutted cat. i also have (not installed) afr 195 eliminator heads, edelbrock short tube headers. i plan on buying a gmhp carb style intake, distributer, block off plate, msd atomic efi. i only use it for track with very limited street. what type of cam do you recomend. i want to go as fast naturally aspirated that these heads will take me. the atomic efi will take away my computer as well.(i think that is a good thing because i live in northern Canada and i am not sure whom could tune it. thanks tfj
12-19-2012, 01:01 AM
#3
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I am interested in the self tuning. I feel it could save alot of headaches in the future. no opti, no finding a tune shop. or computer tune. just a thought. what do you think for a cam. I will probably get the whole thing rebuilt into a 383. thanks tfj
Last edited by TODD F J; 12-19-2012 at 01:15 AM.
12-19-2012, 09:30 AM
#5
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I would like to run mid 11s in the quarter, do you think it would be a waste of money to convert over to an msd efi. When for a third of the price i could use the factory efi system. my main concern is tuning the car. ps my elevation is 3200 ft. if i just rebuilt the top end, and i suspect the bottom end was good (ish lol) what cam would you use. If it was rebuilt into a 383 stroker, with all new internals, which cam would you use?
Last edited by TODD F J; 12-19-2012 at 10:24 AM.
12-19-2012, 01:30 PM
#6
If you want a mid 11 second car I would scrap your entire plan.
For a mild goal like that the deep first of a 4L60E really helps the launch, the lockup converter means you can then run more stall and have it be comfortable on the street if you drive it or lock it up at the top of third which would let you gear it deep again fro good launch with less risk of hitting the rev limiter on the big end.
The stock computer is dirt cheap to get the logging and tuning software for and professional tuners can email you programming you can then tweak as you see fit if you think it needs further work.
Pulleys are of little value on a car that doesn't have a belt driven WP.
I think everyone will agree to not bother with the Edelbrock shorties.
I will say I wouldn't bother with those heads.
I know a magazine article says they are great but the test was completely unprofessional and invalidated by things like not optimizing timing for each head.
Besides that the final numbers were unimpressive for a stroker LT1, there are stock shortblocks with ported GM heads and intake with less duration that will exceed those number on an engine dyno.
Given we typically see a 25% loss from Golen's engine dyno to chassis dyno number for the guys that buy his crate engines we can apply that to the 514hp GMHTP came up with for their cylinder head shootout and come up with a roughly 385rwhp projection for that test engine in a A4 car. A LOT of heads/cam car exceed that with ported GM stuff.
For a mild goal like that the deep first of a 4L60E really helps the launch, the lockup converter means you can then run more stall and have it be comfortable on the street if you drive it or lock it up at the top of third which would let you gear it deep again fro good launch with less risk of hitting the rev limiter on the big end.
The stock computer is dirt cheap to get the logging and tuning software for and professional tuners can email you programming you can then tweak as you see fit if you think it needs further work.
Pulleys are of little value on a car that doesn't have a belt driven WP.
I think everyone will agree to not bother with the Edelbrock shorties.
I will say I wouldn't bother with those heads.
I know a magazine article says they are great but the test was completely unprofessional and invalidated by things like not optimizing timing for each head.
Besides that the final numbers were unimpressive for a stroker LT1, there are stock shortblocks with ported GM heads and intake with less duration that will exceed those number on an engine dyno.
Given we typically see a 25% loss from Golen's engine dyno to chassis dyno number for the guys that buy his crate engines we can apply that to the 514hp GMHTP came up with for their cylinder head shootout and come up with a roughly 385rwhp projection for that test engine in a A4 car. A LOT of heads/cam car exceed that with ported GM stuff.
12-19-2012, 01:35 PM
#7
Oh and displacement adds power mostly by being able to support larger heads and more cam duration, don't get fixated on wanting a 383 unless you understand what else it takes to let one make more power.
Joe above has a very well running hydraulic 383 we have compared it to a very well running stock shortblock car with the same heads/intake and cam from the same place and the HP peak is 7% different, Joe's car has half a point more compression and 6 degrees more cam duration contributing to that 7% number so even while it makes 7% more you can't give the almost 10% displacement increase all the credit. A stroker definitely can help make more power but you need to understand the power added by extra displacement is a lot more expensive that the power added to a stock shortblock with the same heads and complimentary cam.
The stock shortblock car we compared makes 425rwhp with a $3000 heads/cam/intake/valvetrain setup, to make the extra 30hp Joe's car has cost another easy $3500 in a decent stroker shortblock.
Joe above has a very well running hydraulic 383 we have compared it to a very well running stock shortblock car with the same heads/intake and cam from the same place and the HP peak is 7% different, Joe's car has half a point more compression and 6 degrees more cam duration contributing to that 7% number so even while it makes 7% more you can't give the almost 10% displacement increase all the credit. A stroker definitely can help make more power but you need to understand the power added by extra displacement is a lot more expensive that the power added to a stock shortblock with the same heads and complimentary cam.
The stock shortblock car we compared makes 425rwhp with a $3000 heads/cam/intake/valvetrain setup, to make the extra 30hp Joe's car has cost another easy $3500 in a decent stroker shortblock.
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12-19-2012, 02:04 PM
#8
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COOL, thanks for the advice, the headers are probably mid, but i will get long tubes, i am stuck with the heads due to the price i paid. In other words if i add these heads, long tube headers, keep the factory computer, get a computer tune, the trans is new so i wont replace it until it is broke, same with the converter. if i keep the motor the way it is without a rebuild, what cam would you recomend keeping the revs under 5800 rpm. thanks tj
12-19-2012, 02:37 PM
#9
3000 stall you want to keep an essentially stock rev limiter, this story just keeps getting worse.
You are so far off track right now it isn't even worth discussing cams. If you really look into it I bet most of the fast bolton cars run the stock cam to 5800rpm with upgraded springs and 1.6 rockers.
Stop buying parts and start doing a lot of reading, you are a LONG LONG ways off from being ready for this.
You are so far off track right now it isn't even worth discussing cams. If you really look into it I bet most of the fast bolton cars run the stock cam to 5800rpm with upgraded springs and 1.6 rockers.
Stop buying parts and start doing a lot of reading, you are a LONG LONG ways off from being ready for this.
12-19-2012, 07:25 PM
#12
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there is no denying i bought some bonehead parts. i probably took it wrong also. i will probably not buy new heads. i just wanted to know if there was a recomended cam that would make more power or torque under 5800 rpm. I also bought some QA1 drag shocks but i probably should not mention them either. People seem to be brand bias. thanks for the advice though. tfj
12-19-2012, 09:05 PM
#13
A self imposed 5800rpm rev limit is a HUGE obstacle to making real power, a 3000rpm stall is not enough to run mid 11s with an NA LT1 in a streetable car.
Shorties and a gutted cat are not part of a mid 11 second build either again brand not part of it.
No brands need be mentioned. The fact you are looking at this as a brand loyalty thing says you aren't listening yet or someone is PMing you biased ideas.
Far as the shocks they are good shocks probably a little overkill for your goal, the only "negative" is QA1s are known to have issues in cold temps where the seals can blow easily. Generally speaking though cars with those aren't driven a lot in subfreezing temps. That was some time ago I looked at them though maybe the seals have changed and it is no longer an issue.
Shorties and a gutted cat are not part of a mid 11 second build either again brand not part of it.
No brands need be mentioned. The fact you are looking at this as a brand loyalty thing says you aren't listening yet or someone is PMing you biased ideas.
Far as the shocks they are good shocks probably a little overkill for your goal, the only "negative" is QA1s are known to have issues in cold temps where the seals can blow easily. Generally speaking though cars with those aren't driven a lot in subfreezing temps. That was some time ago I looked at them though maybe the seals have changed and it is no longer an issue.
12-20-2012, 06:13 AM
#15
With those other parts you're committed to using, there's no sense in agonizing over an optimum cam. Find a CC503, run it with 1.6 rockers, good springs, shift it at 6500, and accept what you get. Unless your car is overly heavy, it should still run 11's if you can tune it. And as far as tuning, make it easy on yourself and stick with the stock GM PCM.
I agree with the other comments that your 5800 rpm "limit" is unreasonable.
I was shifting at 5900-6000 for best ET with the stock B-body LT1 cam, which is even "smaller" than the F-body version.
I agree with the other comments that your 5800 rpm "limit" is unreasonable.
I was shifting at 5900-6000 for best ET with the stock B-body LT1 cam, which is even "smaller" than the F-body version.
12-20-2012, 06:38 AM
#16
Camaroracing12 and myself are the "fast bolton guys" and we spin the stock cam to 6100-6300 rpm and Camaroracing12 has already hit a 11.9 on a stock heads/cam/valvetrain/trans/rear car with a 3600 stall full exhaust and good tune. 6500 is the limit for stock bottom ends. Since you already ditched an overdrive trans I'm assuming its no longer a street car. The 5800 self imposed rev limit is old school tech thinking and cannot be applied here.
For heads, I know you got a great deal on them, but you can still sell them for fair market value and pick up a set of ported heads without spending any money out of pocket. For the intake, leave the stock setup alone, OBD1 is pretty easy to find tuners for, especially if you use a common head/cam setup that someone like pcm4less or madz28 has tuned before.
You have purchased some very common mistake parts, parts that are pushed in advertisements and not in real tests. You can still sell them to other newbs who don't do research, and buy the correct parts without spending any money out of pocket.
For heads, I know you got a great deal on them, but you can still sell them for fair market value and pick up a set of ported heads without spending any money out of pocket. For the intake, leave the stock setup alone, OBD1 is pretty easy to find tuners for, especially if you use a common head/cam setup that someone like pcm4less or madz28 has tuned before.
You have purchased some very common mistake parts, parts that are pushed in advertisements and not in real tests. You can still sell them to other newbs who don't do research, and buy the correct parts without spending any money out of pocket.
12-20-2012, 10:23 AM
#17
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thanks guys, i will definately stay with the factory computer, the 503 cam seems good for my application. this car is only my drag and bag lol. It is only drag raced for fun. it does not matter if it never sees mid 12 either, as parts wear i will build it up right. i am in no rush to get to 11.5. tfj