Controlling fore/aft weight transfer...
03-10-2013, 12:21 AM
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Controlling fore/aft weight transfer... This question has multiple parts I suppose:
1. Is there an alternative way to minimize fore/aft weight transfer other than getting springs with a higher spring rate?
2. Are there any springs on the market that maintain factory height but have a higher spring rate than factory?
(and I guess 3. Am I just completely out of luck here looking for alternatives to lowering springs to achieve this goal?)
I imagine that improved sway bars should curb my lateral roll problems to a satisfactory level, but I would like to reduce ALL abrupt weight shifting as much as possible, if possible.
1. Is there an alternative way to minimize fore/aft weight transfer other than getting springs with a higher spring rate?
2. Are there any springs on the market that maintain factory height but have a higher spring rate than factory?
(and I guess 3. Am I just completely out of luck here looking for alternatives to lowering springs to achieve this goal?)
I imagine that improved sway bars should curb my lateral roll problems to a satisfactory level, but I would like to reduce ALL abrupt weight shifting as much as possible, if possible.
03-10-2013, 08:47 AM
#2
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This question has multiple parts I suppose:
1. Is there an alternative way to minimize fore/aft weight transfer other than getting springs with a higher spring rate?
2. Are there any springs on the market that maintain factory height but have a higher spring rate than factory?
(and I guess 3. Am I just completely out of luck here looking for alternatives to lowering springs to achieve this goal?)
I imagine that improved sway bars should curb my lateral roll problems to a satisfactory level, but I would like to reduce ALL abrupt weight shifting as much as possible, if possible.
1. Is there an alternative way to minimize fore/aft weight transfer other than getting springs with a higher spring rate?
2. Are there any springs on the market that maintain factory height but have a higher spring rate than factory?
(and I guess 3. Am I just completely out of luck here looking for alternatives to lowering springs to achieve this goal?)
I imagine that improved sway bars should curb my lateral roll problems to a satisfactory level, but I would like to reduce ALL abrupt weight shifting as much as possible, if possible.
2.) 1LE factory springs if you can find them. They are 360lbs/in front, 130-180lbs/in progressive rear.
Let cut to the chase here, what do you really want? Better handling im guessing? Getting rid of the sloppy, loose, disconnected feeling?
03-10-2013, 02:30 PM
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1.) swaybars, and shocks (control how fast these things happen - wont actually decrease body roll and such but it will feel like it because suspension movement will be controlled DRASTICALLY better - with good shocks-
2.) 1LE factory springs if you can find them. They are 360lbs/in front, 130-180lbs/in progressive rear.
Let cut to the chase here, what do you really want? Better handling im guessing? Getting rid of the sloppy, loose, disconnected feeling?
2.) 1LE factory springs if you can find them. They are 360lbs/in front, 130-180lbs/in progressive rear.
Let cut to the chase here, what do you really want? Better handling im guessing? Getting rid of the sloppy, loose, disconnected feeling?
In short, yes.
I apologize for not already listing my setup, but currently my suspension is a stock SS setup with the exception of Bilstein shocks on all four corners.
I'm currently purchasing a good matched sway bar set, but I also want to be able to reduce the amount of squat and dive the car has under heavy acceleration and hard braking, respectively. The problem comes with the fact that I'd prefer not to lower the car if I can avoid it, and aside from the 1LE springs you've mentioned above, it doesn't seem there is a spring setup out there that doesn't lower the car to some extent.
03-11-2013, 08:35 PM
#4
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In short, yes.
I apologize for not already listing my setup, but currently my suspension is a stock SS setup with the exception of Bilstein shocks on all four corners.
I'm currently purchasing a good matched sway bar set, but I also want to be able to reduce the amount of squat and dive the car has under heavy acceleration and hard braking, respectively. The problem comes with the fact that I'd prefer not to lower the car if I can avoid it, and aside from the 1LE springs you've mentioned above, it doesn't seem there is a spring setup out there that doesn't lower the car to some extent.
I apologize for not already listing my setup, but currently my suspension is a stock SS setup with the exception of Bilstein shocks on all four corners.
I'm currently purchasing a good matched sway bar set, but I also want to be able to reduce the amount of squat and dive the car has under heavy acceleration and hard braking, respectively. The problem comes with the fact that I'd prefer not to lower the car if I can avoid it, and aside from the 1LE springs you've mentioned above, it doesn't seem there is a spring setup out there that doesn't lower the car to some extent.
Yeah, other than the 1LE springs I don't know of any other springs that would keep stock height.
You also have the option of upgrading to Koni shocks as well, although Im sure you don't like to hear that.
03-11-2013, 08:52 PM
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Center of gravity and acceleration make your steady
state weight transfer. Instant center affects dynamic
weight transfer when you apply power to the wheels.
To cut weight transfer, you lower the CG. But this
costs you at the strip, where you want the weight
over the rear wheels out of the hole. So this is fought
by raising the instant center (rear suspension link
geometry).
Figure out if your complaint is about steady-state
squat / dive (like, a consistent dive for a consistent
braking force) or a dynamic overtravel (like, nose
dives hard when the brakes are applied and then
comes back, some). This latter is about shocks;
the former, that's tall weight.
Losing up-high weight would generally be a good
thing, but there's only so much of that to gut.
state weight transfer. Instant center affects dynamic
weight transfer when you apply power to the wheels.
To cut weight transfer, you lower the CG. But this
costs you at the strip, where you want the weight
over the rear wheels out of the hole. So this is fought
by raising the instant center (rear suspension link
geometry).
Figure out if your complaint is about steady-state
squat / dive (like, a consistent dive for a consistent
braking force) or a dynamic overtravel (like, nose
dives hard when the brakes are applied and then
comes back, some). This latter is about shocks;
the former, that's tall weight.
Losing up-high weight would generally be a good
thing, but there's only so much of that to gut.
03-11-2013, 09:24 PM
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Center of gravity and acceleration make your steady
state weight transfer. Instant center affects dynamic
weight transfer when you apply power to the wheels.
To cut weight transfer, you lower the CG. But this
costs you at the strip, where you want the weight
over the rear wheels out of the hole. So this is fought
by raising the instant center (rear suspension link
geometry).
Figure out if your complaint is about steady-state
squat / dive (like, a consistent dive for a consistent
braking force) or a dynamic overtravel (like, nose
dives hard when the brakes are applied and then
comes back, some). This latter is about shocks;
the former, that's tall weight.
Losing up-high weight would generally be a good
thing, but there's only so much of that to gut.
state weight transfer. Instant center affects dynamic
weight transfer when you apply power to the wheels.
To cut weight transfer, you lower the CG. But this
costs you at the strip, where you want the weight
over the rear wheels out of the hole. So this is fought
by raising the instant center (rear suspension link
geometry).
Figure out if your complaint is about steady-state
squat / dive (like, a consistent dive for a consistent
braking force) or a dynamic overtravel (like, nose
dives hard when the brakes are applied and then
comes back, some). This latter is about shocks;
the former, that's tall weight.
Losing up-high weight would generally be a good
thing, but there's only so much of that to gut.
03-12-2013, 02:34 AM
#7
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I think I may be worried about something that I'll probably never encounter (so I really don't think I'll be interested in Konis soon, especially since the Bilsteins are maybe 6 months old and I haven't isolated that they are a weak point in the suspension setup right now), but more on that below...
Center of gravity and acceleration make your steady
state weight transfer. Instant center affects dynamic
weight transfer when you apply power to the wheels.
To cut weight transfer, you lower the CG. But this
costs you at the strip, where you want the weight
over the rear wheels out of the hole. So this is fought
by raising the instant center (rear suspension link
geometry).
Figure out if your complaint is about steady-state
squat / dive (like, a consistent dive for a consistent
braking force) or a dynamic overtravel (like, nose
dives hard when the brakes are applied and then
comes back, some). This latter is about shocks;
the former, that's tall weight.
Losing up-high weight would generally be a good
thing, but there's only so much of that to gut.
state weight transfer. Instant center affects dynamic
weight transfer when you apply power to the wheels.
To cut weight transfer, you lower the CG. But this
costs you at the strip, where you want the weight
over the rear wheels out of the hole. So this is fought
by raising the instant center (rear suspension link
geometry).
Figure out if your complaint is about steady-state
squat / dive (like, a consistent dive for a consistent
braking force) or a dynamic overtravel (like, nose
dives hard when the brakes are applied and then
comes back, some). This latter is about shocks;
the former, that's tall weight.
Losing up-high weight would generally be a good
thing, but there's only so much of that to gut.
I don't ever take my car to the strip, and I don't foresee doing it either, so I don't think I'm too worried about getting squat for the perfect hook, although I would like to still be able to grab decently on the street from a dead stop.
I'm more concerned about, frankly, giving myself a bit of a handicap so I don't induce oversteer around a corner from hitting the throttle too hard too abruptly. Get on it too hard too quick, creates problems, let off it too much too quick, creates problems.
I believe my tires have been suitable until lately, but the roads around here are also absolutely FILTHY to the point of traction being almost impossible. On cleaner, newer roads, my tires are still able to hook pretty well, but we haven't had a proper rainfall in months and the city won't spend a dime on street sweepers.
I'm thinking that I may need to get new, different tires though to address my specific concerns...
A little further information: the vehicle is making stock power (car has the SLP 345hp package [blackwing and CME] and a cutout, so probably somewhere in the ballpark of a lid+catback car?) and I don't think I'm going to make any further power mods until I feel I can fully control and utilize the power it's making as-is.
WAAY out of left-field here guys, but what would your opinion be on getting an aftermarket torque arm to improve acceleration through and out of corners? I've tried researching them quite a bit, have found a few decent answers, but unlike STBs, there isn't a new thread about them every other day, so it's a bit trickier to find solid info on them.
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03-14-2013, 09:16 AM
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OP do you do any driving events with your car? Do you autox? Because if that's the case, the best thing you can probably do for now is take a driving school and get seat time. It's really eye opening when you can experience the car when the suspension stinks.. then get a good setup in it and feel how it's transformed.
What kind of tires are you using? How old are they? If they are more than a few years old, then they are probably not helping. A fresh pair of tires compared to a set that's been used for a few years can mean giving up a ton of traction.
What kind of tires are you using? How old are they? If they are more than a few years old, then they are probably not helping. A fresh pair of tires compared to a set that's been used for a few years can mean giving up a ton of traction.
03-14-2013, 08:38 PM
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OP do you do any driving events with your car? Do you autox? Because if that's the case, the best thing you can probably do for now is take a driving school and get seat time. It's really eye opening when you can experience the car when the suspension stinks.. then get a good setup in it and feel how it's transformed.
What kind of tires are you using? How old are they? If they are more than a few years old, then they are probably not helping. A fresh pair of tires compared to a set that's been used for a few years can mean giving up a ton of traction.
What kind of tires are you using? How old are they? If they are more than a few years old, then they are probably not helping. A fresh pair of tires compared to a set that's been used for a few years can mean giving up a ton of traction.
My most common problems are:
1. four wheel slide at speed, which leads to understeer if I don't compensate with slightly heavier throttle. Altogether it tells me I am lacking in grip at the limit.
2. wheel spin comes on rather easy under power in first AND second gear, and it almost never spins in a straight line.
3. uneven road surfaces contribute to the car "dancing" quite a bit when I'm trying to get on it pretty hard in lower gears.
I feel that I need seats with better bolster to be able to push it harder, as I feel like I put too much effort into trying to keep myself in a good driving position around corners, but all I have is factory seats. I don't know if reducing body roll with those sway bars can help minimize that need or not, but I'll soon find out.
I'm running Falken Ziex 512 tires on all four corners, 275/40/17 for the SS factory rims. They have around 25K miles and are coming up on about two years old I believe. Last I checked the treadwear didn't look bad, but they could be drying up a bit since the car is always in sun and this is Texas where it's parked. I have noticed that on fresher, less dirty roads, they still grip quite well though.
As mentioned above, the only suspension upgrade I have over the stock SS setup is a set of Bilstein HD shocks, which were put on around last August and haven't seen too much mileage since then. There was a HUGE difference I could tell immediately between a slight improvement in turn-in responsiveness and a much more noticeable positive impact on rough-road compliance, but it's still not enough. For what it's worth, those shocks seemed to have cured any wheel hop issues I had prior to installation.
So ultimately, I have a pretty good idea of where I think the shortcomings of the car are, at least for how I intend to use it, but I'm not entirely sure if the culprit is bad tires, weak factory suspension parts, or just living in a place where zero effort is put into road maintenance and cleaning.
03-14-2013, 11:04 PM
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Yeah I guessing those tires don't have much grip. Falken Ziex aren't they like either all seasons or one of those daily driveable summer tires? You can definitely do better with other tires.
I wish I found a good seat for my car but I don't want to buy anything unless I tried it first. When I'm at my local track and I lose rear traction, I have a hard time keeping control of it because I'm usually using my steering wheel to hold my body in place too.
I wish I found a good seat for my car but I don't want to buy anything unless I tried it first. When I'm at my local track and I lose rear traction, I have a hard time keeping control of it because I'm usually using my steering wheel to hold my body in place too.
03-14-2013, 11:57 PM
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Yeah I guessing those tires don't have much grip. Falken Ziex aren't they like either all seasons or one of those daily driveable summer tires? You can definitely do better with other tires.
I wish I found a good seat for my car but I don't want to buy anything unless I tried it first. When I'm at my local track and I lose rear traction, I have a hard time keeping control of it because I'm usually using my steering wheel to hold my body in place too.
I wish I found a good seat for my car but I don't want to buy anything unless I tried it first. When I'm at my local track and I lose rear traction, I have a hard time keeping control of it because I'm usually using my steering wheel to hold my body in place too.
They do quite already on a good road surface, but there's little room for surface dirt or defects in the road. I ran them when I had a Marauder and they gripped VERY well, but the Marauder was significantly less powerful and had more weight to force those tires down to the pavement.
But yeh, I'm actually really looking forward to seeing if the beefed up sway bars will reduce how much I get thrown around in the car. If not, well seats my be in my future too. lol.
03-17-2013, 01:30 PM
#14
Center of gravity and acceleration make your steady
state weight transfer. Instant center affects dynamic
weight transfer when you apply power to the wheels.
To cut weight transfer, you lower the CG. But this
costs you at the strip, where you want the weight
over the rear wheels out of the hole. So this is fought
by raising the instant center (rear suspension link
geometry).
Figure out if your complaint is about steady-state
squat / dive (like, a consistent dive for a consistent
braking force) or a dynamic overtravel (like, nose
dives hard when the brakes are applied and then
comes back, some). This latter is about shocks;
the former, that's tall weight.
Losing up-high weight would generally be a good
thing, but there's only so much of that to gut.
state weight transfer. Instant center affects dynamic
weight transfer when you apply power to the wheels.
To cut weight transfer, you lower the CG. But this
costs you at the strip, where you want the weight
over the rear wheels out of the hole. So this is fought
by raising the instant center (rear suspension link
geometry).
Figure out if your complaint is about steady-state
squat / dive (like, a consistent dive for a consistent
braking force) or a dynamic overtravel (like, nose
dives hard when the brakes are applied and then
comes back, some). This latter is about shocks;
the former, that's tall weight.
Losing up-high weight would generally be a good
thing, but there's only so much of that to gut.
