Reject

iTrader: (24)

If any of yall are injecting E in the upcharge pipes, location wise, is it having enough time to cool down the charge temp?

Was wondering how much distance does the gas need in order to be effective at cooling down the IAT.

I know the carb guys have enough tunnel distance just since the fuel is introduced so far up the manifold, but for us EFI guys the injectors are right behind the valve. Making me believe that there isnt enough track length to get the full benefit.

Any input?

Detoxx03

iTrader: (14)

General rule is maf>meth nozzles>iat. Is this ons fbody? I'm assuming so, so there should be enough room.

Reject

iTrader: (24)

Well I was wondering on say a foot of cooling pipe the injector is placed, how much cooling effect would happen in that foot of pipe

Reject

iTrader: (24)

Like for every foot 80 degree temp. That kind of relation

71 chevy

iTrader: (18)

being that the way methanol pulls heat out of the air is by using the heat to turn to vapor, my common sense would tell me that it would be intantaneous.

Reject

iTrader: (24)

Thats what I would think too, but you see the carb guys having much more effective results vs us EFI. How much of a temp drop would you believe is happening in the short distance before making it into the combustion chamber?

71 chevy

iTrader: (18)

i DONT see carb guys having much more effective results vs efi.

i see carb guys talking about greater cooling effect and you know once someone says it on the internet it becomes a fact,

i believe that you acheive maximum cooling once the air sees the fuel. ie, it the hot air cannot coming from a turbo cannot pass the fuel without turning it to vapor and that action instantly cools the air charge down. its called the latent heat of vaporization.

again, this is my firm belief, not a proven fact.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

Something else to remember about using factors like latent heat of vaporization, is that it is a given value at atmospheric conditions. Once you run in a boosted situation, that factor needs to be adjusted to compensate for the higher atmospheric pressure, which will slow down the vaporization of methanol (or water).

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

So do you tell those blow through non intercooled E85 carb guys I race with that the droplets of condensation on their intake manifolds after they make a pass are there for nothing? It looks like their intake manifolds are literally sweating. I don't see that happening on EFI cars.

71 chevy

iTrader: (18)

thats not something ive extensively researched, it would be interesting to know how much, if any, the pressure slows down the LHV.

edit: doing some reading it seems that pressure will lower the latent heat but I have not read anything about the time factor. if you have a book on thermodynamics, maybe you can provide some theories on this?


.

Hi, Im not quite sure I understand the point that you are trying to make. Are you using the fact that EFI intakes dont "sweat" as proof that there is less heat being pulled from the air charge?

stevieturbo

So has anyone actually compared charge temps with both, measured close to the intake valve ?

Which lets face it...will get skewed readings because of the liquid fuel too.

Even charge temp measured close to a meth nozzle. How much is actually an accurate reflection of charge temp, and how much is simply some cold methanol hitting the sensor ?

Slowhawk

iTrader: (12)

I run 2 nozzles roughly 10" from the TB. End of a pass my victor intake is sweating.
Keep in mind I run a lot of meth. Intake sensor reads about 60-80 degree's at the end of a 8 second pass.

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

Correct. I was countering your internet myth statement. In a blow through set up, fuel has a longer amount of contact time with incoming air charge thus the condensation forms on the intake. It really is neat to see, and the intake is cool to the touch.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

I don't have books specifically on thermodynamics, but plenty of p-chem (physical chemistry) books and knowledge.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I wouldn't tune a car to be that heavily reliant on a specific temp intake air charge temp. Granted, you don't want 130, 140, 150 degree intake temps, but unless you're running a positive displacement blower, that shouldn't be a concern. The fact that methanol burns cooler, and will no doubt pull out heat from the air charge, is sufficient for a street car running normal boost and timing. So keep your timing in the mid teens, afr in the mid 11s, and you'll be fine.

And personally, I run one nozzle into my blower inlet, and one post blow off valve that's about 8" before the IAT which is before the elbow going to the throttle body.

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

Alchemist,

I'll be running a nozzle pre compressor as well on mine with one post compressor housing outlet.

stevieturbo

Ive one nozzle pre blower and 2 pre TB.

I think it's only worthwhile doing the pre-compressor if the compressor is being pushed hard. If you arent then there isnt much point.

71 chevy

iTrader: (18)

unfortunately, condensation on the intake doesnt prove that the air going past the intake valve is any cooler in a blowthrough setup than an efi setup. All it proves is that alcohol touching the intake cools the intake manifold below the temperature of the vapor in the atmosphere, causing the vapor to turn to water droplets.

hehe. Mine is not a street car but I typically see intake temps(non intercooled setup) of about 275° at lowish boost. doesnt bother me one bit. I know thats not what the engine is seeing. This is of course with ethanol or methanol fuels. I wouldnt want to see that on a gas setup

Reject

iTrader: (24)

yeah I was wondering about the guys that once they peg their IAT sensors, how are they actually measuring what the cylinder's are seeing.

The carb guys is what got me so fascinated with the eth/meth. They have enough time/distance to cool the charge and remove the intercoolers. I was just thinking of maybe running a pre IAT injector to start the cooling process, but was trying to figure out what distance it would need to actually begin the cooling process.

Alchemist, have you ever had a false sensor reading with little particles of meth/eth touching the sensor?

I'm just thinking that if the engine has a correct temp reading then it can add some more timing instead of being so conservative.

great input from different sources btw!

71 chevy

iTrader: (18)

it looks like we all were wrong. apparently, injecting at the port is actually more efficient than injecting before the throttle body.


hard reading, but some will find it interesting (I k now alchemist certainly will)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...JfgXnfCeaXzheA

apparently,
direct injection is ideal
followed by port injection
and worst is into the intake tract before the throttle body.

who woulda thunk. Maybe we can start dispelling this bit of mythology


excerpts:

BLK02WS6

iTrader: (2)

You will only see about half the benefit of using meth if you don't adjust timing and fueling when using it... Yes, it is safer, and you will get the benefit of the cooler charge - but if you really want the full benefit, you have to lean it out and add timing to optimize it...