Steering pump/box help from steering gurus
06-13-2013, 03:34 AM
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Steering pump/box help from steering gurus My steering has felt groany as though it has air in it, but doesn't. It has poor assist until you bring the rpm up a bit. This seems strange since it has a smaller p/s pulley than stock. Here's what i've got:
I've got some miles on my LS swap now and slowly starting to work out all the bugs. The old box and pump combo had a ton of assist from factory.
I swapped a grand cherokee steering box into the car the same time the L92 went in. It's got a steering cooler mounted ahead of the rad. The pump and box are box stock. The steering box I never saw work before I bought it. The pump is what came on the L92
The whole steering system is plumbed with #6an lines, the front pulley I had to change to a 5 3/16" dorman 300-201 from the stock pulley which was around 6.5" The pulley size will obviously speed up the pump. I've seen a few different kits to tweak pressure, but this should be a pretty standard setup, I just can't seem to find much on the topic.
I've got some miles on my LS swap now and slowly starting to work out all the bugs. The old box and pump combo had a ton of assist from factory.
I swapped a grand cherokee steering box into the car the same time the L92 went in. It's got a steering cooler mounted ahead of the rad. The pump and box are box stock. The steering box I never saw work before I bought it. The pump is what came on the L92
The whole steering system is plumbed with #6an lines, the front pulley I had to change to a 5 3/16" dorman 300-201 from the stock pulley which was around 6.5" The pulley size will obviously speed up the pump. I've seen a few different kits to tweak pressure, but this should be a pretty standard setup, I just can't seem to find much on the topic.
Last edited by kballs; 06-13-2013 at 08:55 AM.
06-13-2013, 09:42 AM
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If you can check the system pressure, that would tell us alot.
Did the truck your engine came out of have a rack and pinon?
If so, the pressure in the pump may be reduced, which wouldn't get you much power with the gear. If this is the case, don't do anything hokey to the pump, there are professional solutions that are cheap and wont reduce the life of your pump any further.
You (theoretically) should have the same power as far as the gear goes as the GC gear has the same piston in it your car did.
Just an FYI I know you probably needed that smaller pulley to make clearance for your swap, but increasing that ratio is going to reduce the pumps life expectancy and increase the amount of cavitation. Vain pumps cavitate during use, it's the nature of the pump, and controlling it is the key, and just because you don't have foam doesn't mean you aren't cavitating the pump, you are likely to have it when wrapping it up, and that motor will fully do that!
You said you added a cooler, how is it plumbed? Most coolers I see are done wrong and they become air pockets and typically do more harm than good.
Sorry to drone on and on, hydraulic steering is my life.
LG
Did the truck your engine came out of have a rack and pinon?
If so, the pressure in the pump may be reduced, which wouldn't get you much power with the gear. If this is the case, don't do anything hokey to the pump, there are professional solutions that are cheap and wont reduce the life of your pump any further.
You (theoretically) should have the same power as far as the gear goes as the GC gear has the same piston in it your car did.
Just an FYI I know you probably needed that smaller pulley to make clearance for your swap, but increasing that ratio is going to reduce the pumps life expectancy and increase the amount of cavitation. Vain pumps cavitate during use, it's the nature of the pump, and controlling it is the key, and just because you don't have foam doesn't mean you aren't cavitating the pump, you are likely to have it when wrapping it up, and that motor will fully do that!
You said you added a cooler, how is it plumbed? Most coolers I see are done wrong and they become air pockets and typically do more harm than good.
Sorry to drone on and on, hydraulic steering is my life.
LG
06-13-2013, 10:02 AM
#6
lanzg - you state Cooler are connected up wrong most of the time. What are the key point in its inline location and where should the cooler be connected within the lines (I know it would on the low pressure side before going back to the Reservior). Is height a key area to be concern ?
Sorry for the HJ of the thread.. but it is a related subject.
thanks.
BC
Sorry for the HJ of the thread.. but it is a related subject.
thanks.
BC
06-13-2013, 10:55 AM
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You'd like it below the fluid level in the pump so air wont have a tendency to congregate in there. Bubbles so small you can't see them are one thing, but if there is a place they can all hang out and form a big bubble bad things happen when the system process larger bubbles.
You also want it in the coolest air you have, any cooler is just a heat ex- changer, if they are good at taking it out, they will be good at putting it in. They only work as good as the differential you put them in (out side air temp Vs. Inside fluid temp. The power steering only runs around 170 (generally speaking) so if that cooler is setting next to something radiating 200 deg, you are heating up your system.
You also either want both ports on the top or side, and if they are in the side you would like the flow to go in the bottom, and out the top to promote the air returning to the reservoir and leaving out the vent in the cap.
Not all OEMs do it this way, and not all run vented systems, if there's no vent then the bleeding of the system becomes even more important. These are some general guide lines for aftermarket systems associated with conversions.
LG
You also want it in the coolest air you have, any cooler is just a heat ex- changer, if they are good at taking it out, they will be good at putting it in. They only work as good as the differential you put them in (out side air temp Vs. Inside fluid temp. The power steering only runs around 170 (generally speaking) so if that cooler is setting next to something radiating 200 deg, you are heating up your system.
You also either want both ports on the top or side, and if they are in the side you would like the flow to go in the bottom, and out the top to promote the air returning to the reservoir and leaving out the vent in the cap.
Not all OEMs do it this way, and not all run vented systems, if there's no vent then the bleeding of the system becomes even more important. These are some general guide lines for aftermarket systems associated with conversions.
LG
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06-13-2013, 11:05 AM
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Thanks for the reply langz. I didn't have a choice with the pulley, knowing it would speed it up and make more heat.
The cooler I plumbed from the return side of the box, to the top of the cooler, then out the bottom of the cooler back into the pump housing. Its all done in #6 line.
The L92 came from an escalade so it would have had a rack, not a box. This is where I'm out of my element. I'm guessing a different bypass spring is needed?
The cooler I plumbed from the return side of the box, to the top of the cooler, then out the bottom of the cooler back into the pump housing. Its all done in #6 line.
The L92 came from an escalade so it would have had a rack, not a box. This is where I'm out of my element. I'm guessing a different bypass spring is needed?
06-13-2013, 11:19 AM
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I do have access to a 5000psi gauge @ work so ill hook up and check it. Would I be better to just find a different application pump that was made for steering box?this looks like any other pump that would beinstalled on most GM cars and trucks for the past 30 years.
I've read different posts that recommend from 1200 to 1700 psi. My cap isn't vented, it does let off some air when I check the level after a run.
I've read different posts that recommend from 1200 to 1700 psi. My cap isn't vented, it does let off some air when I check the level after a run.
Last edited by kballs; 06-13-2013 at 11:35 AM.
06-13-2013, 11:36 AM
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Your cooler is exactly backwards.
You'd need a different piston for a different pressure, but we are putting the cart before the horse if you have a gauge. Pistons are easily obtained, I know a guy.
Racks typically don't like pressure over 1000 (there are a million applications but for yours I think that's the target)
Put that gauge inline, it would be nice to know the idle working pressure, the idle max (hitting the lock) and say the lock at 2500rpm. Of course we already know that pump thinks it's hauling it at idle so the 2500 measurement is less important.
LG
You'd need a different piston for a different pressure, but we are putting the cart before the horse if you have a gauge. Pistons are easily obtained, I know a guy.
Racks typically don't like pressure over 1000 (there are a million applications but for yours I think that's the target)
Put that gauge inline, it would be nice to know the idle working pressure, the idle max (hitting the lock) and say the lock at 2500rpm. Of course we already know that pump thinks it's hauling it at idle so the 2500 measurement is less important.
LG
Ten years and five posts thats gotta be a record!
06-13-2013, 11:42 AM
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Thanks, I'm on it. The cooler is at a good height in relation to the reservoir and its spaced about 2in ahead of the rad core so it won't soak as bad. Ill swap the lines for sure before it goes back together and check the pressures like you said. Hopefully tonight or tomorrow.
06-13-2013, 11:55 AM
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PA you make a great point and it was funny, I was thinking the same thing this morning.
Unfortunately forums are my life, well my other life. Being a constant contributor/human shield/**** magnet, can make you uninterested in getting involved.
I spend more time here than I should, and usually if there's something in my wheel house I monitor and make sure nobody jumps off a cliff but I stay out and just soak up the info. I have shot lots of PMs to help folks out, I don't want my work life to roll over and I don't want to step on any sponsor feet as I am kinda in industry.
I figured this could benefit lots of guys as it comes up alot.
LG
Unfortunately forums are my life, well my other life. Being a constant contributor/human shield/**** magnet, can make you uninterested in getting involved.
I spend more time here than I should, and usually if there's something in my wheel house I monitor and make sure nobody jumps off a cliff but I stay out and just soak up the info. I have shot lots of PMs to help folks out, I don't want my work life to roll over and I don't want to step on any sponsor feet as I am kinda in industry.
I figured this could benefit lots of guys as it comes up alot.
LG
06-13-2013, 12:05 PM
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Thanks man, this is great info that's often hard to find reliable answers to.
I was looking at that borgeson spring/shim kit prior to posting this also. But it seems like it only reduces pressure. If I'm starting with a pump built for a rack, I'd likely want to go the other direction. Ill jaust have to see where I'm at when I get the gauge hooked up and go from there.
I have the pump out right now because it was leaking. So now I'm looking at buying a new/reman pump anyway. So I'm wondering if I should just get the replacment for this application, or try a different pump from napa?
I was looking at that borgeson spring/shim kit prior to posting this also. But it seems like it only reduces pressure. If I'm starting with a pump built for a rack, I'd likely want to go the other direction. Ill jaust have to see where I'm at when I get the gauge hooked up and go from there.
I have the pump out right now because it was leaking. So now I'm looking at buying a new/reman pump anyway. So I'm wondering if I should just get the replacment for this application, or try a different pump from napa?
06-13-2013, 01:11 PM
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The biggest problem with parts house pumps, especially for the P-pump, is you never know what you are getting. The same part number covers so many applications and it could be anything. Same part number for a car/truck with a rack/truck with a gear etc.... We see it all the time.
Wheres the leak, they really are dumb little creatures and usually easily repaired. Depending on how much it's leaking this could be the problem, oil out, air in.
Get it in there and get a reading on the pressure, we're still chasing ghosts till we know, and they can't catch the parts we throw at them.
LG
Wheres the leak, they really are dumb little creatures and usually easily repaired. Depending on how much it's leaking this could be the problem, oil out, air in.
Get it in there and get a reading on the pressure, we're still chasing ghosts till we know, and they can't catch the parts we throw at them.
LG
Last edited by lanzg; 06-13-2013 at 01:21 PM.
06-13-2013, 01:59 PM
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Langz I know what you're saying about not wanting ti get involved because of the bs that comes with forum garbage.
The pumps leaking out the front shaft seal. Small but enough to sling off the pulley. Wish I'd have checked the pressure before tearing it all apart because I hate the idea of tossing a leaker back in to check the press. Could try to source a seal locally, there's a p/n right on it.
The pumps leaking out the front shaft seal. Small but enough to sling off the pulley. Wish I'd have checked the pressure before tearing it all apart because I hate the idea of tossing a leaker back in to check the press. Could try to source a seal locally, there's a p/n right on it.
06-13-2013, 02:22 PM
#19
Langz.. you have provide some good information. .I would not worry about the number of Post.. but with your Knowledge and information, If you ever did a post, it might be worth making it a Sticky.
On another note of Cooler. I noticed late 4th Gen F-body started using an PS cooler inline with the upper Radiator hose. I have grabed a few and have used them on my Swaps.. I figured it may not be the best solution, but it did help on my Chevelle swap as during acceleration, the steering would lock up. After installing the cooler. They disappeared.. So I figure it was due to the heat that the newer Pump and older steering box was causing.
what is your take on them OEM Coolers in the Radiator hose ? I figured if it was good enough for GM, It should work for me....
thanks again.
BC
On another note of Cooler. I noticed late 4th Gen F-body started using an PS cooler inline with the upper Radiator hose. I have grabed a few and have used them on my Swaps.. I figured it may not be the best solution, but it did help on my Chevelle swap as during acceleration, the steering would lock up. After installing the cooler. They disappeared.. So I figure it was due to the heat that the newer Pump and older steering box was causing.
what is your take on them OEM Coolers in the Radiator hose ? I figured if it was good enough for GM, It should work for me....
thanks again.
BC
06-13-2013, 02:44 PM
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If you can get that seal locally it's an easy fix, I never have the right puller (I seem to always be doing this in a trailer in the middle of the night with 5 crew members patiently waiting) so I sink 2 short/small self tappers in the face of the seal 180 from one another just deep enough, and pry the old one out alternating sides. Then find you a good matching OD socket and putter back on in. Put a little juice on the shaft and make sure the seal stays the shape it's supposed to be as it goes on.
You will be loosing some pressure from that leak, but probably not enough for the problem your're having.
I'm not a huge fan of the way the OEMs do alot of things, and that is one of them. That's actually probably heating the fluid, which may have been more of what they were shooting for. I deal in that world alot, and logic doesn't always follow their design process.
You may have gained a little volume (amount of fluid not flow) you were needing, adding capacity is a great cooling method, you may have just fixed a goofy plumbing issue you had. I'd be interested to see if you could replicate the fix with a larger separate fluid cooler or a properly baffled reservoir that had more capacity.
A win is a win, if it's working, race it.
LG
You will be loosing some pressure from that leak, but probably not enough for the problem your're having.
I'm not a huge fan of the way the OEMs do alot of things, and that is one of them. That's actually probably heating the fluid, which may have been more of what they were shooting for. I deal in that world alot, and logic doesn't always follow their design process.
You may have gained a little volume (amount of fluid not flow) you were needing, adding capacity is a great cooling method, you may have just fixed a goofy plumbing issue you had. I'd be interested to see if you could replicate the fix with a larger separate fluid cooler or a properly baffled reservoir that had more capacity.
A win is a win, if it's working, race it.
LG