4L60E problem
07-16-2013, 06:37 AM
#1
4L60E problem OK transmission guru's, here's a good one for you. I posted this same question a couple of months ago and was almost certain that all of the answers were going to be wrong. I have a 60E that doesn't have 3rd or 4th gear. Before you say clutch pack, that is new. Last time I posted this question the tranny only had 4K miles so I was almost certain that wasn't the problem. Now I know it's not the problem because the clutches are new. So what else can it be? A shift solenoid, maybe?
07-16-2013, 02:01 PM
#4
Moderator
As FirstYrLS1Z said, put the shift in D3 and tell us whether it will shift into 3rd. If not, what happens - does it free wheel or stay stuck in 2nd gear?
If it free wheels, you have a 3/4 clutch problem which can be due to a leak in the servo area including the 3rd accumulator check ball in the case.
On the rebuild, was the input drum air tested? Also tested with the input drum inserted into the pump?
We can give more suggestions after we know how the test in D3 goes.
If it free wheels, you have a 3/4 clutch problem which can be due to a leak in the servo area including the 3rd accumulator check ball in the case.
On the rebuild, was the input drum air tested? Also tested with the input drum inserted into the pump?
We can give more suggestions after we know how the test in D3 goes.
07-16-2013, 08:34 PM
#6
If the sprag in the piece in the link below is bad, would that cause this problem?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4L60E-4L65E-FRONT-INPUT-SPRAG-WITH-SUN-GEAR-LATE-MODEL-4L70E-M30-M32-M70-/251251821119?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a7fc68a3f&vxp=mtr#ht_893wt_904
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4L60E-4L65E-FRONT-INPUT-SPRAG-WITH-SUN-GEAR-LATE-MODEL-4L70E-M30-M32-M70-/251251821119?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a7fc68a3f&vxp=mtr#ht_893wt_904
07-16-2013, 08:53 PM
#7
Moderator
If the sprag is bad, you will have NO 1st or 2nd gear in D3 or OD. You can however still manually shift the car, e.g. start in D1, D2, then D3 and finally OD to get into every gear.
If Shift Solenoid "B" (also called 2-3 shift solenoid) is bad (stuck ON), I would expect it to stay in 2nd gear right to redline and never shift to 3rd. I have seen people claim they had this symptom and a new shift solenoid fixed it; I would suggest trying it just to be sure.
Otherwise, you have a leak in the 3/4 clutch apply fluid. It can be any of these:
* Check ball in the case behind the servo
* The 2nd apply piston in the servo is leaking
* The teflon rings on the input shaft
* Major leak between the pump halves
* Seal on the 3/4 piston
* Leak in the input drum, e.g. a blown out bleed hole, input shaft to drum leak.
During assembly, an test of the input drum inserted into the pump can test the last three items listed. Was this done?
If Shift Solenoid "B" (also called 2-3 shift solenoid) is bad (stuck ON), I would expect it to stay in 2nd gear right to redline and never shift to 3rd. I have seen people claim they had this symptom and a new shift solenoid fixed it; I would suggest trying it just to be sure.
Otherwise, you have a leak in the 3/4 clutch apply fluid. It can be any of these:
* Check ball in the case behind the servo
* The 2nd apply piston in the servo is leaking
* The teflon rings on the input shaft
* Major leak between the pump halves
* Seal on the 3/4 piston
* Leak in the input drum, e.g. a blown out bleed hole, input shaft to drum leak.
During assembly, an test of the input drum inserted into the pump can test the last three items listed. Was this done?
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07-17-2013, 03:58 AM
#8
The teflon seals on the input shaft were perfect. The tranny only had 4K miles on it. It made a shuddering feeling one day when my son was driving, as hes was coming to a stop. After that if shifted to third one time then no more. The leak test you're talking about wasn't done.
07-17-2013, 09:55 AM
#9
Moderator
Assuming you aren't keen to pull the trans again, I would suggest using a scanner that can force each gear to make sure it isn't some obscure PCM or electrical problem. Any trans shop can do this for you. Might as well swap in a new Solenoid B too.
If you just rebuilt the trans, check for major problems in the servo, assuming you can access the servo without removing the trans.
After that I think you will have to pull the trans again. As you doing the trans rebuild yourself? I would suggest pulling the entire input shaft, reverse drum and pump out as one unit (it comes out that way anyway) and immediately performing a leak test before pulling it apart. Use a strong small cardboard box to support the assembly upside down and perform a leak test on the holes in the pump assembly.
Here is the test for the 3/4 clutch:
I'm not an expert, so perhaps one of the expert builder here has other ideas or corrections. In particular, I don't know how the shudder could be related to this; it sounds like multiple gears were trying to engage at once (binding) which can be servo related.
If you just rebuilt the trans, check for major problems in the servo, assuming you can access the servo without removing the trans.
After that I think you will have to pull the trans again. As you doing the trans rebuild yourself? I would suggest pulling the entire input shaft, reverse drum and pump out as one unit (it comes out that way anyway) and immediately performing a leak test before pulling it apart. Use a strong small cardboard box to support the assembly upside down and perform a leak test on the holes in the pump assembly.
Here is the test for the 3/4 clutch:
I'm not an expert, so perhaps one of the expert builder here has other ideas or corrections. In particular, I don't know how the shudder could be related to this; it sounds like multiple gears were trying to engage at once (binding) which can be servo related.
07-17-2013, 08:52 PM
#10
Hi All, I'm not trying to hijack this thread but the title of "4l60E Problem" seems a good place to start.
I know this is a forum for LS1's but from what I have seen, you guys know the 4L60E inside and out. I have a 2003 Avalanche with 200k miles and a stock engine and trans. A few years ago, it would randomly go into limp mode and would only take off in 3rd. I changed fluid and filter and pulled and checked solenoids and they were fine. Put it back together and truck drove fine for a while. It later did it again off and on for about 6 months and the MIL came on. I took it to a GM dealer but it wouldn’t act up for them. They scanned it and I got P0740, 1870 and 0758 codes. They cleared the codes and told me that these codes were common when the ignition switch was going out but they couldn’t be sure unless it was acting up during their inspection. They said to drive it and bring it back if it did it again. I drove it and didn’t have the problem after that. The MIL came on again a few weeks later but the truck drove fine so I just let it stay on.
A few months ago, I started to notice a very slight "miss" at the very top of 2nd gear, right before it would shift into 3rd. It didn’t feel like a slip and it was barely even noticeable. I checked the fluid level, color, smell, and all were good. I continued to drive it, taking it easy, as time and money were tight.
The 2-3 "miss" didn’t seem to change or get worse, but a couple weeks ago, I got in my truck to go somewhere and it wouldn’t shift out of first gear. I tried it manually and it would not go into 2nd, it just stayed in first. Same when I manually put it in 3rd and D. After some test driving, I found that if I put it in D, then got the rpms up to about 2-3k in 1st gear, and let all the way off the gas, that it would simply skip over second and go straight to 3rd and then on to 4th as normal. I never once felt or heard a slip in 1, 3, D, or R, there were no slips, no leaks, no smell, no shudder, no noise, no flare. It just would not shift into 2nd gear. Again, money and time were tight, so I drove it like that for a few days but only on short trips (5-10 miles). The other day, I had to go on a 100 mile drive. As usual, I put in D, it took off in 1st as normal, I let off the gas at about 2-3k rpms and it shifted smoothly into 3rd gear, once up to speed, it went into 4th and all was good. After about an hour of going 75mph, I got a message on the dash saying the trans was hot. So, I pulled over and let it sit for a while. I checked the fluid, it still looked ok. After it cooled off, I decided to try and limp it home. I put it in D, it took off in 1st, skipped second and went to 3rd, but then it stayed in 3rd. I had now lost the shift to 4th. One other thing I found was that if I hit the button for Tow Mode, I could not get the trans to shift out of first no matter how high I revved the engine and let off the gas. As soon as I turned the Tow Mode off, it would go back to shifting from 1st to 3rd once I let off the gas.
So, I drove home in 3rd at about 40mph and made it with no more warnings.
I have rebuilt a couple older engines and have always been pretty good mechanically but have never worked on an auto trans. I started researching online to help educate myself on the subject and did the following:
Borrowed a buddy’s scan tool and scanned truck and had a P0101 code for MAF Sensor. I cleaned it, drove it around on a couple very short trips and the MIL light finally went out. No other codes came up at all.
Checked voltage at IGN 0 fuse, trans connector and white wire off ign switch, all good.
Checked all ground feeds from PCM to Trans to make sure none were shorted together or to ground and they were all good. I was hoping to find the problem here as I read that the shift solenoids are set up so that when both are on in 1st and both are off in 3rd, while the 2nd and 4th states oppose each other. I was hoping maybe the solenoid grounds were touching and causing me to have only 1st and 3rd but I did not find that to be the case.
I dropped the pan and valve body. I checked all the valves and check ***** and they all move freely and nothing seemed to be stuck. Checked solenoids and they were all within specified ohms. I also tested them with a 12v power supply and they actuate.
I did find a broken 3-2 control valve spring and I found that the check ***** had deformed the separator plate holes.
The accumulators seem to be ok. They are not loose but move smoothly in their bore.
I can see the 2-4 band through the case near the front of the valve body and it appears to be intact and the anchored end is anchored. I put air into the 2nd apply to the servo and can I see the band engage firmly on the drum. I did the same with the 4th apply circuit and the band tightens up firmly as well. However, I did notice that when I was air checking the servo, that air continued to flow out of the opposite circuit. I assumed that meant my servo seals were shot so I pulled the servo out. The seals look a little worn but they were intact and not torn or anything. Either way, I don't think air should be able to pass between the 2nd and 4th apply circuits, but I may be wrong.
I also found some photos online of the ends of the band through the inspection hole and noticed that my band seems to have less gap between the ends than the photos I have seen. During the air check of the servo, when the band is applied, the gap is about 3/8" or so between the ends of the band, but the photos I saw look like there was about twice that. I am assuming that my band and drum are worn and are thinner than new ones are, which would explain the smaller gap. I'm really hoping I can get a bit more life out of it before having to rebuild.
So, that brings me to here. As I said, money is really tight and I need to get my truck back up and going asap. I know that with 200k miles, that I should just be rebuilding the whole trans. The thing is, beyond being low on cash, that the trans works perfectly other than the 2 and 4 shifts. I would think that if the gears, band, bearings, clutches, TC and pump were shot, that all the gears would have issues and it would be slipping, clunking, grinding, vibrating, etc... But I have none of that. I am hoping I can get by with some simple mods and a few new parts but have been trying to decide what might fix this for a while longer without breaking the bank and wanted to see what you guys on here thought. I have read a LOT of forums trying to learn and you LS1Tech members seem to know more about this trans than the people on any other site.
I was thinking of getting the following:
A Transgo HD2 shift kit as this should give me all new VB seals and replace the broken 3-2 spring, along with the bigger boost valve and P1870 fix.
A Transgo separator plate to fix the issue with the worn check ball seats.
Pinless accumulators, even though mine appear ok, I have no idea how to be sure and these are cheap insurance while I have the VB out.
A corvette Servo with new seals to get more pressure on the band.
Then I was thinking of welding up the end of the servo pin to make it about an 1/8" longer so it would be able to engage the band better. That is, unless I can find a good deal on the Vette servo that includes a longer pin. I hate being poor!
Anyway, I'm sorry for the long post but I wanted to make sure I gave the facts as best I could so you guys with the experience may be able to get me on the right path.
I'd greatly appreciate any info or advice you can provide, even if it's just to tell me I'm an idiot and that I'm screwed and to take my 4x4 and stop bugging you Camaro guys.
Thanks!
I know this is a forum for LS1's but from what I have seen, you guys know the 4L60E inside and out. I have a 2003 Avalanche with 200k miles and a stock engine and trans. A few years ago, it would randomly go into limp mode and would only take off in 3rd. I changed fluid and filter and pulled and checked solenoids and they were fine. Put it back together and truck drove fine for a while. It later did it again off and on for about 6 months and the MIL came on. I took it to a GM dealer but it wouldn’t act up for them. They scanned it and I got P0740, 1870 and 0758 codes. They cleared the codes and told me that these codes were common when the ignition switch was going out but they couldn’t be sure unless it was acting up during their inspection. They said to drive it and bring it back if it did it again. I drove it and didn’t have the problem after that. The MIL came on again a few weeks later but the truck drove fine so I just let it stay on.
A few months ago, I started to notice a very slight "miss" at the very top of 2nd gear, right before it would shift into 3rd. It didn’t feel like a slip and it was barely even noticeable. I checked the fluid level, color, smell, and all were good. I continued to drive it, taking it easy, as time and money were tight.
The 2-3 "miss" didn’t seem to change or get worse, but a couple weeks ago, I got in my truck to go somewhere and it wouldn’t shift out of first gear. I tried it manually and it would not go into 2nd, it just stayed in first. Same when I manually put it in 3rd and D. After some test driving, I found that if I put it in D, then got the rpms up to about 2-3k in 1st gear, and let all the way off the gas, that it would simply skip over second and go straight to 3rd and then on to 4th as normal. I never once felt or heard a slip in 1, 3, D, or R, there were no slips, no leaks, no smell, no shudder, no noise, no flare. It just would not shift into 2nd gear. Again, money and time were tight, so I drove it like that for a few days but only on short trips (5-10 miles). The other day, I had to go on a 100 mile drive. As usual, I put in D, it took off in 1st as normal, I let off the gas at about 2-3k rpms and it shifted smoothly into 3rd gear, once up to speed, it went into 4th and all was good. After about an hour of going 75mph, I got a message on the dash saying the trans was hot. So, I pulled over and let it sit for a while. I checked the fluid, it still looked ok. After it cooled off, I decided to try and limp it home. I put it in D, it took off in 1st, skipped second and went to 3rd, but then it stayed in 3rd. I had now lost the shift to 4th. One other thing I found was that if I hit the button for Tow Mode, I could not get the trans to shift out of first no matter how high I revved the engine and let off the gas. As soon as I turned the Tow Mode off, it would go back to shifting from 1st to 3rd once I let off the gas.
So, I drove home in 3rd at about 40mph and made it with no more warnings.
I have rebuilt a couple older engines and have always been pretty good mechanically but have never worked on an auto trans. I started researching online to help educate myself on the subject and did the following:
Borrowed a buddy’s scan tool and scanned truck and had a P0101 code for MAF Sensor. I cleaned it, drove it around on a couple very short trips and the MIL light finally went out. No other codes came up at all.
Checked voltage at IGN 0 fuse, trans connector and white wire off ign switch, all good.
Checked all ground feeds from PCM to Trans to make sure none were shorted together or to ground and they were all good. I was hoping to find the problem here as I read that the shift solenoids are set up so that when both are on in 1st and both are off in 3rd, while the 2nd and 4th states oppose each other. I was hoping maybe the solenoid grounds were touching and causing me to have only 1st and 3rd but I did not find that to be the case.
I dropped the pan and valve body. I checked all the valves and check ***** and they all move freely and nothing seemed to be stuck. Checked solenoids and they were all within specified ohms. I also tested them with a 12v power supply and they actuate.
I did find a broken 3-2 control valve spring and I found that the check ***** had deformed the separator plate holes.
The accumulators seem to be ok. They are not loose but move smoothly in their bore.
I can see the 2-4 band through the case near the front of the valve body and it appears to be intact and the anchored end is anchored. I put air into the 2nd apply to the servo and can I see the band engage firmly on the drum. I did the same with the 4th apply circuit and the band tightens up firmly as well. However, I did notice that when I was air checking the servo, that air continued to flow out of the opposite circuit. I assumed that meant my servo seals were shot so I pulled the servo out. The seals look a little worn but they were intact and not torn or anything. Either way, I don't think air should be able to pass between the 2nd and 4th apply circuits, but I may be wrong.
I also found some photos online of the ends of the band through the inspection hole and noticed that my band seems to have less gap between the ends than the photos I have seen. During the air check of the servo, when the band is applied, the gap is about 3/8" or so between the ends of the band, but the photos I saw look like there was about twice that. I am assuming that my band and drum are worn and are thinner than new ones are, which would explain the smaller gap. I'm really hoping I can get a bit more life out of it before having to rebuild.
So, that brings me to here. As I said, money is really tight and I need to get my truck back up and going asap. I know that with 200k miles, that I should just be rebuilding the whole trans. The thing is, beyond being low on cash, that the trans works perfectly other than the 2 and 4 shifts. I would think that if the gears, band, bearings, clutches, TC and pump were shot, that all the gears would have issues and it would be slipping, clunking, grinding, vibrating, etc... But I have none of that. I am hoping I can get by with some simple mods and a few new parts but have been trying to decide what might fix this for a while longer without breaking the bank and wanted to see what you guys on here thought. I have read a LOT of forums trying to learn and you LS1Tech members seem to know more about this trans than the people on any other site.
I was thinking of getting the following:
A Transgo HD2 shift kit as this should give me all new VB seals and replace the broken 3-2 spring, along with the bigger boost valve and P1870 fix.
A Transgo separator plate to fix the issue with the worn check ball seats.
Pinless accumulators, even though mine appear ok, I have no idea how to be sure and these are cheap insurance while I have the VB out.
A corvette Servo with new seals to get more pressure on the band.
Then I was thinking of welding up the end of the servo pin to make it about an 1/8" longer so it would be able to engage the band better. That is, unless I can find a good deal on the Vette servo that includes a longer pin. I hate being poor!
Anyway, I'm sorry for the long post but I wanted to make sure I gave the facts as best I could so you guys with the experience may be able to get me on the right path.
I'd greatly appreciate any info or advice you can provide, even if it's just to tell me I'm an idiot and that I'm screwed and to take my 4x4 and stop bugging you Camaro guys.
Thanks!
07-17-2013, 09:37 PM
#11
Moderator
Woo - a very long post.
And it really is a hijaak.
Why not start a new thread instead:
1. Copy your post into the clipboard.
2. Selects Forums - Automatic Transmission and click the "New Thread" button.
3. Paste your post in.
4. Edit this post to just say you started a new thread instead.
I know that a lot of newbies don't immediately see how to start a new thread; so no big deal. And welcome to the forum. We are happy to help anyone with a 4L60E in any car/truck.
And it really is a hijaak.
Why not start a new thread instead:
1. Copy your post into the clipboard.
2. Selects Forums - Automatic Transmission and click the "New Thread" button.
3. Paste your post in.
4. Edit this post to just say you started a new thread instead.
I know that a lot of newbies don't immediately see how to start a new thread; so no big deal. And welcome to the forum. We are happy to help anyone with a 4L60E in any car/truck.
