sleepinghawk

Well I did the clutch master install(GM) and I'm installing the new GM slave tomorrow or Sunday. I'm not doing the drill mod.I did replace the fluid which was dark and dirty. While I'm searching on here, just wanted some opinions about if my clutch is worn, is it any reason to upgrade other than the GM original? I don't go to the track and I don't race it either. I have had no problems with the clutch untill it went out while going for a ride a few weeks ago. It's a 02 with about 67,000 miles on it. Not looking for more power, just want the car to last.I don't mind up grading, especially if what's on it is weak or can be improved to last longer. Any input is appreciated! Thanks

badformulaLS1

iTrader: (1)

I don't have much experience but I've read the monster level 1 is very good for what you're looking for. Stock like feel but a little stronger.

Philbo Baggins

I got the GM LS7 clutch from Scoggin Dickey, it comes with the LS7 flywheel (your LS1 flywheel won't work with it). It cost about 450 for the kit. And in my opinion the drivability is spot on. The pedal feel is real good and on my car (headers, lid etc, some racing) it grabs on firmly. I think the direct LS1 replacement clutch kit is only 100(?) cheaper so worth the upgrade in my book. Since you're not racing and i assume your car is stockish this might be the go-to. Stock hydraulics will work fine since you're refreshing those anyways. The only change to hydraulics i would suggest is getting Tick's remote speed bleeder. It's about $50 and you can do a one man bleed job in like 10 minutes. Easier to get rid of murky fluid and let your gear last longer.

skinumback

iTrader: (1)

From my experience the clutch at this milage shouldn't have enough ware to warrant replacement, granted it hasn't bin abused, wich you stated you don't race it. But some one b4 you may have if you dint buy it new! Since you are replacing the hydraulics of the clutch, I'm assuming you have determined this to be the problem? If not and you are just replacing the easy stuff first to see if that's the problem and that fixes it, then keep drivin! if it doesn't and you determine the clutch or PP or release bearing is faulty, I would replace with a good quality clutch kit ( napa is what I've had good luck with ) and have a reputable machine shop surface flywheel! Inspect trans front seal and engine rear main seal while you have things apart and replace if needed! !

sleepinghawk

Thanks, Yes I have been reading alot about the monster 1. That's exactly what I got out of it also.

Thanks! Yea I was on the fence about the bleeder, not the cost but in comparison to how I would have to bleed it later. You just answered my question if I should! I'm ordering one! I haven't spent anytime searching price but I have no intentions of installing something that I have to keep working on over the next couple weeks or months to get it right. If it's 5- $600 then I'll have to spend it.I'll have to install whatever I buy so I don't want problems making it work, that's one reason I won't just buy anything to replace it. I'll have to look into the GM LS7 clutch from Scoggin Dickey as you posted. I have ARH and their catted Y changed my gears to a 3:73 along with the replaced underdrive pulley and a tune from Frost.Thank you!

All the seaching told me this is what to do cause of what I went thru. My fluid was dark and dirty! I had no idea. I had just replaced all belts, pulley's and was just doing maint on it to keep it right and did the brake fluid first then the clutch went out while driving to Lowe's. I was able to pump the pedal to give me something to get back home. So I blead, over and over, then replaced the master(pain in the ***) didn't fix it. Now the slave, and I'm pretty sure it won't fix anything. Don't know yet. I know it wasn't abused, it only had 300 miles on it in 05 when I bought it. I'm waiting on a mechanic to come here and look at my clutch and tell me what he thinks. If the clutch is worn right much then it's getting replaced Thank you!

Philbo Baggins

Your pedal sounds like mine toward the end. It was the slave in my case. I had to milk it for months before having enough cash for clutch kit, master and slave hydraulics (altogether with the bleeder included i spent about 800). My reasoning was that if i have to pull the trans to get the slave (and the car has 110k on it too) i might as well go all out while the trans is off. After i made that decision my clutch started slipping anyway so bam. Whole new everything. that was 7k miles ago (3 road trips, lots of urban driving, short highway trips and 12 passes at the track in those 7k miles) and no issues.

I am, however, slightly paranoid about my fluid. It always looks clean but i still Ranger swap the reservoir once a week and use the speed bleeder to partially swap some of the fluid after each day at the track.

Your car probably has a heat shield protecting the hydraulic lines on their way to the trans like mine does, the speed bleeder i just lined up the same route and zip tied it to an easy access point on the driver side engine bay. Dark fluid = clutch dust. Contaminated fluid has a much lower boiling point and the slave cylinder, being inside the bell housing, has huge amounts of heat thrown its way. Dust in the fluid also likes to eat up the seals in the master and slave cylinders.

Anyway man good luck with the whole thing. You have a nice car there

sleepinghawk

Well I ordered the Tick bleeder from a vendor today. This is a start. Yea, that's how I feel as far as pulling the tranny down 1 time and installing a new clutch. I would like to know if the slave does fix it, but after all the reading I did I doubt I would be that lucky. Then again when it went out I noticed that I had a bad habit with my left foot sometimes resting on the pedal. Which could of been the start of slowly doing my clutch in. I was shocked when I saw the darkness of the fluid and the crap in the container.
I go driving every day it's nice, and alot of town driving with the trips to the beach. Then by Dec I park it in a closed in garage till winter is over, so I doubt I put 3,000 miles a year now.
Now I have to do more reading to see what I can take off to tell if the clutch is worn cause I'm not putting the tranny back together till I know.
Yes the shield does protect the lines plus I now have them wrapped to help even more.
I really didn't get much of a chance to drive it when it happened cause while I was at a light I noticed it was starting to move in 1st! I threw it in neutral and started pumping. That's when I noticed the pedal would only come back up if I took my foot off fast. By the time I got home I was lucky. That day or next I bleed the clutch and replaced the fluid and had now NO gear at all. So I didn't get much warning, but that's when I realized I wasn't removing my foot off the clutch pedal like I should! I haven't driven it since that day.
Thanks for the comment and thanks for the help Time to start reading.

Philbo Baggins

Yeah man sounds exactly like what mine did. The seals in the slave aren't holding hydraulic pressure anymore so the fluid just kinda rides by it. The longer you hold the pedal down the more fluid escapes pressure. If you take your clutch plates out and look at them and look at the flywheel you can kinda get an idea of their condition. Though that would involve taking trans off, looking at the stuff, and leaving the parts on the floor till you got the new kit if a new kit is needed.

I used to hold my clutch pedal down to disengage it, and leave the car in gear when i was sitting at a stop sign or in traffic. I was doing that when my pedal first started failing so i went to move out of the gas station parking lot and it stalled and i was like wait what? Then it did it again and then the pedal stuck down and i had to pull it up and pump it like you said.

i don't know if holding the pedal down for extended periods is harmful or not, but now i just leave it in neutral with the pedal up until i know i can move forward.

sleepinghawk

My tranny is out and sitting on my tranny jack. I'm in no hurry till I figure out if the clutch has to be purchased. I have a new slave but I'm not putting it on yet till I figure out what kind of clutch I'm going with. I will probably read up on how to install the clutch and start taking mine apart to see what is worn tomorrow. The car has been up on blocks for a while now, so what the heck is another month to do it right I hope.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

LS7 clutches are ****....you pick up rotating weight with them. There are not many good clutch choices out there for these cars unless you spend some $.

Philbo Baggins

It's about an extra 6 pounds. Or in the neighborhood of 10% Although if you get the aluminum flywheel instead you lose 6 pounds rather. I'm semi-against using aluminum flywheels in a daily driver, but from the sound of it his Firehawk is not a DD


Although since he doesn't race, rotating weight is kind of irrelevant anyway. And factory style clutches have a small amount of slip built in to make them easy to navigate in traffic and parking lots. Also puts that much less initial shock load on the trans if it sticks a few hundredths of a second more gradually

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

10% is alot.....especially when it's to heavy to begin with. Your looking at a 60lb clutch then. Aluminum flywheels are un-noticeable in these cars and offers a little gain in performance.

You don't buy these cars because you don't like performance.....so there is no use in dumbing it down with heavy ****. This is why we see so many of these cars under performing these days.....a little here and a little there and the next thing you know your car performs like it has 30hp less

Op get you a aluminum fly and a lightened spec or monster clutch at a minimum. You'll thank me later.

sleepinghawk

I'm reading now about the cost of these clutches and the different prices, and haven't found 1 thread about comparing the monster, to the spec to the LS7 clutches vs the ones even cheapier at a aotozone or napa. What I have read is alot of sounds with monster to the way it shifts. There are negative remarks also on the cheapier ones also. Then there are some great remarks about the monsters and others. Mine isn't a D/D and it's not a track car so only thing I'm looking for is a clutch that works like the stock, and even the next step better as far as quality. I don't need a clutch that can handle more horsepower, but if it does and it's better than stock and the cost is close, and I don't have to worry about pulling it back out for shims, or spending $300 for a tick ajustable master or $175 for a spec adjuster to make a clutch work, then Ill be all over it. You are right about you have to spend some money to get a good clutch for these cars! Thanks

Yes weight isn't a factor. Not a D/D and want a good reliable clutch that I can install myself that compares to stock but quality even better. It would have been so much easier if I hadn't gone thru the steps that everyone suggest which in the end just cost alot more money. Bleed, Bleed, new master cylinder, bleed, bleed, new slave, bleed, bleed new clutch, bleed bleed, and depending on which clutch you buy and if you needed shims, you now need to buy a new Tick adjustable master to make that new clutch work I do understand replacing the slave especially if you take the tranny down. But now I need to pull down the clutch to know if it's worn or not. For the 4th day in a row it's raining and I can't catch a break.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

Well you like shifting your car don't you???? You see here is the problem. More weight on the crank is harder on your syncro's......harder on your rear too. Lighter clutches are easier on those parts. It seems very few people on here think of the vehicle as a whole and parts should compliment other parts.

I've seen it so many times.....I'm gonna get this and that and this and that and end up with a pile of poop.

Your combo starts with the first parts you by. I understand you don't track the car....but if your not worried about performance you shoulda bought a camary.

67k on the stock clutch is not alot......and tells me you beat on it some. I have seen them go 100k with some but not alot of beating. Mine went to 26k and I broke the disc.....but I beat the tar out of mine.

Philbo Baggins

Well with the LS7 clutch/flywheel you don't need shims or an adjustable master. Stock hydraulics and torque your bolts and you're done.

A friend of mine went with Spec on his car and had to pull the trans 4 or 5 times afterwards trying to fine tune it by replacing shims and i assume you don't want that alley. But hey that was a few years back maybe their R&D has fixed that issue

Same friend had a Monster on another car and said it wasn't bad but didn't drive in town like stock.

In comparison, after he helped me install my LS7 kit (he has a lift and i don't so that decision was instantaneous) he drove it after the break in and thought it felt really nice. He's also made a couple passes in my car at the track. His cars ran low 11s and he liked the clutch in my car better than both of them. So that, besides how well i know him, i value his opinion.

A 10% difference in clutch weight (or whatever the exact number is) combined with the entire rotating weight of the whole drive train, is in my opinion not that much change.

But that's the thing with the internets...everyone has like, uh, their opinion man (<-The Dude)

So different people need different things. OP needs a clutch that's comfortable for a weekend cruiser. I needed something that could occasionally deal with driving 600 miles/week in an urban environment on the few occasions my DD breaks down while at the same time handling bolt on HP at the track. And then other people need something more dynamic and speed oriented. Different clutches might show up small differences on your ETs but i promise your butt dyno is in no way accurate enough to know the difference.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

I would do a monster before the spec for sure. I run a tilton....I didn't recommend that to op for several reasons.

But if you think your opinion matters to the crankshaft carrying extra weight your a fool. Physics matter then not your opinion.

sleepinghawk

That's what I'm trying to figure out now, is my mileage alot on my clutch. Based on your answer, no, it's not. I agree. As far as beat on it, not really. I mean I think I ripped thru 1-3rd 2 times and that was in 06. Then 2nd thru 4th racing my sons modded GTP. From that to just going from 2nd full throttle to 3rd a couple times. And never doing 1st ever again. So in all honest to answer your question I don't think I beat on it, but as you said, I beat on it some. That's not a bad thing, it's just that I'm not that young and those years are far behind me on beating my dream up.
Haha I had a camry, and sold it later and got 3 kids and 3 wives,then got the hawk! But I get your point. But my car is not stock, and I enjoy the performance of it that's why I left the engine alone, and did things around it so I could keep it streetable as possible. I wanted a cam, but that would just lead to the track.
If my clutch is gone because what little beating I did wore it out then I am wrong for wanting the same thing again. I don't want 67,000 miles out of a clutch. But what I do want is one better, and easy enough to install and better quality than what I got out of mine. I don't want to pull it down and keep trouble shooting, so paying a little extra doesn't bother me, I cut no corners on my ARH exhaust cause I hate re- doing, and I love stainless.
At least you know what you did to yours, and you know that the beating did it. I'm just trying to figure out what did mine and how to avoid it and what to buy. Everyone's input does help

Philbo Baggins

If you wanna talk physics, then include the fact that the cause of drivetrain damage is initial shock load of launching and shifting (part of the reason the Juice is known for breaking things on the hit). Aggressive sport clutches cause more of that. Factory type clutches soften that blow, and the LS7 has the benefit of being able to handle the power he is making (GM's R&D designed that piece to work in a 505HP car in any weather or traffic condition). And the synchro thing, preloading your gear shifts is exponentially more likely to **** up your synchros than an extra 6 pounds on the flywheel.

This is an issue of total drivetrain weight, the transmission and crank shaft aren't even going to notice a 6 pound increase to the massive bulk already turning.

It's a matter of do you want to enjoy driving your car or do you want to go 0.05 faster at the track.


@ sleepinghawk: From the sound of it i beat on my car way more than you and my original clutch lasted 110k. Don't ask me how, people have been surprised to hear it lasted that long. My LS7 clutch has about 8k on it at this point. But drives better than my original ever did. Like any car mod, do your homework and get as many directions of input as possible and make an educated decision for your needs. You seem like a pretty lucid guy so i'm sure you won't have a problem coming to a consensus

Philbo Baggins

Here you go, i read this a long time ago but just now found it again because i couldn't remember exactly weight differences:

LS1 clutch assembly (w/ flywheel) 49lbs
LS7 assembly 57lbs
LS7 assembly with aluminum flywheel 44lbs

That's primarily due to flywheel weights more than anything. The steel LS7 flywheel is 2.5lbs heavier than the LS1 flywheel. However the firdanza aluminum LS7 flywheel is 11lbs LIGHTER than the LS1

3Camaros

If your clutch wasn't slipping you don't need a clutch right now. I have had several clutches last well over 100,000 miles on various cars and trucks. I have a truck right now with 174,000 on the original clutch. It is not slipping yet but I have a new clutch in the garage.
I also know some people can wear out a clutch in 20,000 miles and not even go to the track.
My advice, put the new slave and master cylinder in and drive it.