fuel pump options
01-28-2014, 11:25 AM
#1
fuel pump options needing input from you high hp guys. my parts collecting is almost done with the exception of the pump.
as most of you know im in the process of swapping to the mp122 and over driving the snot out of it. just got my ACT twin disc and the blower manifold is at the machine shop so im looking for the last thing on my list.
what have you guys used as an intank option? i already have the racetronics harness but didnt get the 255 as i want something with more flow.
as most of you know im in the process of swapping to the mp122 and over driving the snot out of it. just got my ACT twin disc and the blower manifold is at the machine shop so im looking for the last thing on my list.
what have you guys used as an intank option? i already have the racetronics harness but didnt get the 255 as i want something with more flow.
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01-28-2014, 01:49 PM
#6
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01-28-2014, 02:09 PM
#8
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01-28-2014, 03:03 PM
#11
TECH Fanatic
The DW is more reliable than the Walbro by design with BAP or PWM as it is a turbine style pump.
01-28-2014, 03:35 PM
#12
Yes, I am. However the two others that have BAP's (Psychobilly and Sssnake) are just fine and are putting down 615 and 650 whp respectively. For me, spending $150 on a second pump is the way to go since the Kenne Bell BAP is $300+. Simple economics...nothing more.
The DW is more reliable than the Walbro by design with BAP or PWM as it is a turbine style pump.
The DW is more reliable than the Walbro by design with BAP or PWM as it is a turbine style pump.
has anyone put twins in the stock bucket? thought i read it somewhere but i have been searching and cant seem to find the thread
01-28-2014, 04:04 PM
#13
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...-pig-slop.html
The bad news is that a twin-pump system using the stock bucket will cost you $1250-1500.
01-28-2014, 04:48 PM
#14
TECH Fanatic
You're going to have to scale your tune. You can upgrade to a larger MAF to get the Hz back down but you almost to the 512 gram/sec limitations of the P59 controller. You can try a 2 BAR if you want to spend the money, but you'll probably be better off scaling the MAF.
01-28-2014, 05:27 PM
#16
I'm talking about the actual cost to build a twin pump system using the stock bucket. I bet you haven't thought this through yet.
Granted, if you want to do this on the cheap, you can get away with a cheaper filter, regulator, check valves (or a filter with one integrated check valve), and smaller lines. The smaller lines will increase your pressure drop and decrease the volume of pressurized fuel available to handle system transients, but they will save you about $2 per fitting. I think Philistine did his 8AN/6AN system for about $1500.
- Two DeatschWerks DW300 pumps - $330
- One Aeromotive 13110 Pro-Series boost-referenced EFI regulator - $300
- One Aeromotive 12302 Pro-Series 12AN 10 micron fuel filter with two Aeromotive 15612 ORB-12 adapters - $205
- Two Aeromotive 15107 check valves with two Aeromotive 15608 ORB-10 adapters - $185
- Holley 534-203 fuel rails - $155
- Four 5/16" or 3/8" Gates submersible hoses - $100
- One used CTS-V bucket - $90
- One Blox vacuum manifold - $55
- One 15' length of 12AN PTFE stainless fuel line - $65
- One 15' length of 10AN PTFE stainless fuel line - $60
- One 12' length of 8AN PTFE stainless fuel line - $42
- One 6' length of 4AN PTFE stainless fuel hose - $21
- One 5' length of Vibrant Performance silicon heater hose - $17
Granted, if you want to do this on the cheap, you can get away with a cheaper filter, regulator, check valves (or a filter with one integrated check valve), and smaller lines. The smaller lines will increase your pressure drop and decrease the volume of pressurized fuel available to handle system transients, but they will save you about $2 per fitting. I think Philistine did his 8AN/6AN system for about $1500.
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 01-28-2014 at 06:42 PM.
01-28-2014, 05:50 PM
#18
FOD, thanks for the link to the gauge. By the way, slvrvee, you really should rip out your fuel system and install a good regulator (boost regulated if you're planning on running FI) with a large diameter return. Your A/F ratio has to be all over the place under dynamic loading. Fuel pressure should be a rock solid 58 or 60 PSI.
01-28-2014, 07:22 PM
#19
TECH Fanatic
I'm talking about the actual cost to build a twin pump system using the stock bucket. I bet you haven't thought this through yet.
Granted, if you want to do this on the cheap, you can get away with a cheaper filter, regulator, check valves (or a filter with one integrated check valve), and smaller lines. The smaller lines will increase your pressure drop and decrease the volume of pressurized fuel available to handle system transients, but they will save you about $2 per fitting. I think Philistine did his 8AN/6AN system for about $1500.
- Two DeatschWerks DW300 pumps - $330
- One Aeromotive 13110 Pro-Series boost-referenced EFI regulator - $300
- One Aeromotive 12302 Pro-Series 12AN 10 micron fuel filter with two Aeromotive 15612 ORB-12 adapters - $205
- Two Aeromotive 15107 check valves with two Aeromotive 15608 ORB-10 adapters - $185
- Holley 534-203 fuel rails - $155
- Four 5/16" or 3/8" Gates submersible hoses - $100
- One used CTS-V bucket - $90
- One Blox vacuum manifold - $55
- One 15' length of 12AN PTFE stainless fuel line - $65
- One 15' length of 10AN PTFE stainless fuel line - $60
- One 12' length of 8AN PTFE stainless fuel line - $42
- One 6' length of 4AN PTFE stainless fuel hose - $21
- One 5' length of Vibrant Performance silicon heater hose - $17
Granted, if you want to do this on the cheap, you can get away with a cheaper filter, regulator, check valves (or a filter with one integrated check valve), and smaller lines. The smaller lines will increase your pressure drop and decrease the volume of pressurized fuel available to handle system transients, but they will save you about $2 per fitting. I think Philistine did his 8AN/6AN system for about $1500.
The OE fuel lines should be sufficient, however I may install an aftermarket regulator where the current fuel filter resides as I am worried the OE regulator will be overwhelmed and not be able to maintain constant pressure with two pumps. Worst case I'll go to a 1/2" steel line and adapt to -8 at either end. It scares me to have braided line running under the car that is driven regularly on the road. I sincerely doubt that will be required though.
I know you're not going to take my advice, although I'll throw it out there one last time. Boost referencing the regulator is a really bad idea when you base at 4 BAR. The higher the pressure you have, the lower the volume of flow you will get. Anything over 4 BAR will only serve to further reduce flow. Having a grossly oversized line will only serve to exacerbate this situation.
Here is a single DW301 installed in a V1 fuel bucket, testing conducted by DW (Courtesy of Psychobillycaddy).
01-28-2014, 07:41 PM
#20
I don't buy those fuel flow numbers. 98 LPH will only support 212.5 RWHP on a 0.5 BSFC, 58 PSI system. I thought the OEM pump was good for around 190 LPH rated pump @ 60 PSI. In order to support 400 RWHP on a LS6 motor with 0.5 BSFC and 58 PSI fuel system, theoretically, you need a pump that can deliver 185 LPH. We already know through dyno testing that people start to run out of headroom on the stock pump at around 400 RWHP (depending on actual BSFC). Which is why the Walbro GSS342 (255 LPH) pump is a very popular choice for bolt-on cars making less than 500 RWHP. And why the MP112 kits came with a Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump. Running a pump rated at 13.5 VDC at 18 VDC will give you something like 45% more flow, albeit at the cost of massively increased heat generation and current consumption and reduced system lifetime.
The 1/4" ID hard lines are not sufficient to support the flow rates that you need, and will not support a heavily boosted engine due to insufficient reserved volume. When you stomp on the gas, the (maybe) 6 oz of pressurized fuel you have reserved in the rails and hard lines is not going to be sufficient to prevent fuel system pressure from dropping like a rock. Also, remember that the flow numbers advertised are always in a free-flowing environment. Throw real system flow restriction on the pump and watch what happens to those numbers.
Totally disagree. For every pound of boost you have in the cylinder, you effectively have one less pound of fuel pressure at the rail. With 15 lbs of boost on a car equipped with a 60 PSI "dumb" regulated fuel system, you will effectively be delivering 25% less fuel volume for a given PWM on a given injector size. Running that lean is a surefire way to trigger detonation and destruction of your engine.
If you run out of static head, you need more pump or less flow restriction. Trying to control injector PWM to compensate for rapidly changing boost pressure is a recipe for a very bad car day. I assume that you're going to try to solve that problem by bandaiding your tune by running super rich. When you do that, you can kiss your fuel economy and your catalytic converters goodbye. And you won't be making as much power as you could if you invested in a fuel system sized appropriately for your engine's demands.
I know you're not going to take my advice, although I'll throw it out there one last time. Boost referencing the regulator is a really bad idea when you base at 4 BAR. The higher the pressure you have, the lower the volume of flow you will get. Anything over 4 BAR will only serve to further reduce flow. Having a grossly oversized line will only serve to exacerbate this situation.
If you run out of static head, you need more pump or less flow restriction. Trying to control injector PWM to compensate for rapidly changing boost pressure is a recipe for a very bad car day. I assume that you're going to try to solve that problem by bandaiding your tune by running super rich. When you do that, you can kiss your fuel economy and your catalytic converters goodbye. And you won't be making as much power as you could if you invested in a fuel system sized appropriately for your engine's demands.
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 01-28-2014 at 08:18 PM.