fab my own supercharger from a turbine, good idea or bad?
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fab my own supercharger from a turbine, good idea or bad?
i seen a vette the other day on a social media that had a turbo, but was gear driven from a crank acc pulley. couldn't see an intercooler on the car, just the turbo and oil feed lines. so that got me thinking, i was always dead set on a TVS2300, but if i can get 15-17 psi on the upper (3k-7k) RPM from a d1sc style blower i wouldn't be against it.
i don't know near as much about FI, as i do all other aspects. so sorry for any dumb questions, ect.
i am planning a build of a LQ4 or LQ9 with 408 tsp rotating assembly, heads i haven't quite pinpointed which to get, but thinking FI, id want lower compression i would assume (i was looking into some 237cc head from PRC). cam will be custom ground, but since i haven't got all the specific numbers on anything else besides bottom end, all i know is not too much lift not too much duration as the turbo/supercharger wouldn't like that.
a TVS2300 will run me upwards of $7500, i figured, surely i can find an adequate alternative that will be cheaper. I'm open to anything besides anything that involves cutting on my exhuast.
so my thought was, get around an 88mm turbo, buy a pulley, and do some metal fab on the prop shaft. some math would go into this of corse. i might have to get a gear box, as the serp belt won't spin fast enough for me to get adequate boost. but i haven't looked at the number yet so i hadn't ruled out the possibility of it working with a very small pulley. idk about the numbers, would and 88mm be the right size for the boost i want? and i shouldn't have to worry about not being able to spool with a bigger turbo bc of the fact its spline or belt driven right?
get the turbo, oil lines, (ill use my wiper fluid reservoir and a small aftermarket pump to feed the oil rather than tapping into my crankcase.) a BOV, a waste gate, and some tubing and be ready to throw it on for under $1000.
you guys think i would need to intercool it? its not a strip track car, not a DD either, just working on making it a trailer queen that i can take out on a sunny sunday, or bust a cobras *** on friday nights with.
i don't know near as much about FI, as i do all other aspects. so sorry for any dumb questions, ect.
i am planning a build of a LQ4 or LQ9 with 408 tsp rotating assembly, heads i haven't quite pinpointed which to get, but thinking FI, id want lower compression i would assume (i was looking into some 237cc head from PRC). cam will be custom ground, but since i haven't got all the specific numbers on anything else besides bottom end, all i know is not too much lift not too much duration as the turbo/supercharger wouldn't like that.
a TVS2300 will run me upwards of $7500, i figured, surely i can find an adequate alternative that will be cheaper. I'm open to anything besides anything that involves cutting on my exhuast.
so my thought was, get around an 88mm turbo, buy a pulley, and do some metal fab on the prop shaft. some math would go into this of corse. i might have to get a gear box, as the serp belt won't spin fast enough for me to get adequate boost. but i haven't looked at the number yet so i hadn't ruled out the possibility of it working with a very small pulley. idk about the numbers, would and 88mm be the right size for the boost i want? and i shouldn't have to worry about not being able to spool with a bigger turbo bc of the fact its spline or belt driven right?
get the turbo, oil lines, (ill use my wiper fluid reservoir and a small aftermarket pump to feed the oil rather than tapping into my crankcase.) a BOV, a waste gate, and some tubing and be ready to throw it on for under $1000.
you guys think i would need to intercool it? its not a strip track car, not a DD either, just working on making it a trailer queen that i can take out on a sunny sunday, or bust a cobras *** on friday nights with.
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What? Build a blower out of a turbo? Just get a blower. And no way you are doing this for $1000. Im going to say you have about a year of reading before you attempt anything
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I hate to say it, but going FI, there is no cheap way to do it. Granted, there are ways to spend less money, but in the end, it's not going to be cheap.
The least expensive way to do it somewhat reliably, is to find a kit that someone is selling, which happens quite frequently, and go that route. You can also buy the items individually, and save some money there.
In the end, cheap, fast, reliable, pick 2 of the three.
The least expensive way to do it somewhat reliably, is to find a kit that someone is selling, which happens quite frequently, and go that route. You can also buy the items individually, and save some money there.
In the end, cheap, fast, reliable, pick 2 of the three.
#5
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If you want cheap. Go down the "sloppy mechanics" route. At least the fabrication there can be cheap.
DIY a turbo install with a chinese turbo.
There may be many things wrong with the approach, but you certainly cant argue that some of the end goals they achieve are very impressive.
And great value for money.
You havent a hope of building a supercharger for the money you mention let alone a functioning and reliable kit.
Superchargers themselves are high precision units so no way of doing that on the cheap.
Turbo installs can be done much cheaper.
DIY a turbo install with a chinese turbo.
There may be many things wrong with the approach, but you certainly cant argue that some of the end goals they achieve are very impressive.
And great value for money.
You havent a hope of building a supercharger for the money you mention let alone a functioning and reliable kit.
Superchargers themselves are high precision units so no way of doing that on the cheap.
Turbo installs can be done much cheaper.
#7
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Look on ebay. There are plenty of mustang blowers on there that you could try to modify to get to fit. I've seen a ton up there for <$1000 many around $500. Would it be easy, probably not but it would be fun.
There are M112's up there all the time. A TVS2300 is a drastically more efficient charger but the price shows it.
There are M112's up there all the time. A TVS2300 is a drastically more efficient charger but the price shows it.
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stumbled upon the whipple w200ax today. its got the maggies whipped lol. capable of 20lbs of boost! install kit comes in at a hair under $5500! sorry if this is old news, but I'm just now finding it. so I'm excited. they make a w140ax, which i would be fine with, but i don't think it fits my motor. said 07-10 truck with the 4.8, 5.3, 6.0, and 6.2. i don't know anything newer than the 06 GTO as far as factory options in drivetrain and if the motors have been differentiated. but still, for the w200ax thats 2k better than what i had previously found, and that sc should be a much better system.but I'm still weighing out options, man i love twin screws, i do thoroughly enjoy pointing to something and saying "i built that" though.
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I looked at doing a remote mount supercharger. I looked at it alot actually and found a few builds.
Pocket I believe is the username that did it in a thirdgen using a M122 or GT500 supercharger.
You could do it around 2-3K in parts but you'd need to be able to tune it.
I planned on going this route but no local tuners I talked to were willing to mess with it. So I cant do it as I couldnt tune it.
You can pick up the supercharger for 500-700 bucks, fab up a mounting plate run the piping upfront for an intercooler and basically have a very large centrifugal supercharger that wont exactly be pretty.
You would have to add a custom cowl. Also contend with endless waves of no's and haters cause its very unusual.
Plus is that with the new camaro's you can get a 12 rib supercharger pulley for your engine(big issue with pockets build was slippage at 8rib pulley)
so ya there is that.
edit:
Thread for info more info on thirdgen.org if your interested
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...t-part-ii.html
Pocket I believe is the username that did it in a thirdgen using a M122 or GT500 supercharger.
You could do it around 2-3K in parts but you'd need to be able to tune it.
I planned on going this route but no local tuners I talked to were willing to mess with it. So I cant do it as I couldnt tune it.
You can pick up the supercharger for 500-700 bucks, fab up a mounting plate run the piping upfront for an intercooler and basically have a very large centrifugal supercharger that wont exactly be pretty.
You would have to add a custom cowl. Also contend with endless waves of no's and haters cause its very unusual.
Plus is that with the new camaro's you can get a 12 rib supercharger pulley for your engine(big issue with pockets build was slippage at 8rib pulley)
so ya there is that.
edit:
Thread for info more info on thirdgen.org if your interested
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...t-part-ii.html
Last edited by silent_soul; 03-24-2014 at 03:27 PM.
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I hate to say it, but going FI, there is no cheap way to do it. Granted, there are ways to spend less money, but in the end, it's not going to be cheap.
The least expensive way to do it somewhat reliably, is to find a kit that someone is selling, which happens quite frequently, and go that route. You can also buy the items individually, and save some money there.
In the end, cheap, fast, reliable, pick 2 of the three.
The least expensive way to do it somewhat reliably, is to find a kit that someone is selling, which happens quite frequently, and go that route. You can also buy the items individually, and save some money there.
In the end, cheap, fast, reliable, pick 2 of the three.
#13
I hate to say it, but going FI, there is no cheap way to do it. Granted, there are ways to spend less money, but in the end, it's not going to be cheap.
The least expensive way to do it somewhat reliably, is to find a kit that someone is selling, which happens quite frequently, and go that route. You can also buy the items individually, and save some money there.
In the end, cheap, fast, reliable, pick 2 of the three.
The least expensive way to do it somewhat reliably, is to find a kit that someone is selling, which happens quite frequently, and go that route. You can also buy the items individually, and save some money there.
In the end, cheap, fast, reliable, pick 2 of the three.
I'm new to LSx FI but not FI, and not to cars, and this is a rarely seen post full of honesty and good advice.
OP: Given the information in your post I don't think you are an idiot, but I don't think you have read enough on the engineering involved with any of the components you are referring to.
Example - a TVS2300 is NOT a twin screw. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger3.htm
It is a twin rotor roots type supercharger - air goes around the outside of the rotors instead of through the center - way less efficient, still awesome, still a positive displacement supercharger.
LS motors seem to respond fine with even cheap or poorly matched size turbo chargers, so in my case I'm thinking that two small T3 based turbos maybe Garrett maybe ebay...
In your case a good TVS1900 kit would probably be fine, especially if you can find a used one.
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I looked at doing a remote mount supercharger. I looked at it alot actually and found a few builds.
Pocket I believe is the username that did it in a thirdgen using a M122 or GT500 supercharger.
You could do it around 2-3K in parts but you'd need to be able to tune it.
I planned on going this route but no local tuners I talked to were willing to mess with it. So I cant do it as I couldnt tune it.
You can pick up the supercharger for 500-700 bucks, fab up a mounting plate run the piping upfront for an intercooler and basically have a very large centrifugal supercharger that wont exactly be pretty.
You would have to add a custom cowl. Also contend with endless waves of no's and haters cause its very unusual.
Plus is that with the new camaro's you can get a 12 rib supercharger pulley for your engine(big issue with pockets build was slippage at 8rib pulley)
so ya there is that.
edit:
Thread for info more info on thirdgen.org if your interested
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...t-part-ii.html
Pocket I believe is the username that did it in a thirdgen using a M122 or GT500 supercharger.
You could do it around 2-3K in parts but you'd need to be able to tune it.
I planned on going this route but no local tuners I talked to were willing to mess with it. So I cant do it as I couldnt tune it.
You can pick up the supercharger for 500-700 bucks, fab up a mounting plate run the piping upfront for an intercooler and basically have a very large centrifugal supercharger that wont exactly be pretty.
You would have to add a custom cowl. Also contend with endless waves of no's and haters cause its very unusual.
Plus is that with the new camaro's you can get a 12 rib supercharger pulley for your engine(big issue with pockets build was slippage at 8rib pulley)
so ya there is that.
edit:
Thread for info more info on thirdgen.org if your interested
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...t-part-ii.html
I also wouldn't spend 2-3k on a unknown fab or attempt for something different if you can buy a used D1 kit for 3-4k.
#16
stumbled upon the whipple w200ax today. its got the maggies whipped lol. capable of 20lbs of boost! install kit comes in at a hair under $5500! sorry if this is old news, but I'm just now finding it. so I'm excited. they make a w140ax, which i would be fine with, but i don't think it fits my motor. said 07-10 truck with the 4.8, 5.3, 6.0, and 6.2. i don't know anything newer than the 06 GTO as far as factory options in drivetrain and if the motors have been differentiated. but still, for the w200ax thats 2k better than what i had previously found, and that sc should be a much better system.but I'm still weighing out options, man i love twin screws, i do thoroughly enjoy pointing to something and saying "i built that" though.
You don't seem to have researched all possible options, outputs, and price. Personally, I think superchargers are extremely high priced. They do have obvious benefits and are preferred by many, but if you're going to be spending $6000 or more you need to weigh all options.
For example, I'll sell you an On3 76mm, with their 44mm wastegate and 50mm blow off valve for $600 + shipping. That's over $100 less than it cost me, and they're all brand new. I've disassembled them to make sure there are no flaws. It'll make 700 flywheel horsepower, and if you can fab exhaust/intake piping yourself, you'll have the bulk of a turbo setup for a total of about $1200. From there, you'll need the oil lines, intercooler, and fuel/tuning stuff. The last 2 you would have needed to purchase with the supercharger anyway.
Just showing you other options....
#17
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There is no doubt that going turbo can be cheaper. Especially if you can fab yourself. A chop saw anda MGAW and you are gtg. But I wanted to keep A/C in my RX and a turbo just wasn't going to allow that. Queue the procharger. Clears my hood, I get to keep my A/C and it isn't all that hard on parts like a PD charger. Plus it comes with quiet gears. :-) I like the sleeper look.
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Here is something else to consider, and that's power delivery.
Positive displacement superchargers are great for motors that don't make much torque to begin with, or are going into a heavy platform like a truck, suv, or 2010+ camaro. In an f-body, you don't need that instant huge torque spike at just off idle. All that will do is roast tires and will get old quickly. They also don't like to be spun high because they generate a lot of heat.
Your best bet is to pick up a used P1SC for dirt cheap, like $1000-1200 and get that setup completed for another $1000 depending on what you already have. The power delivery is more linear, and I think you'll be happier in the end.
Something to remember about the differences between a supercharger and turbo, is the rpms needed to generate the boost that they do. A centrifugal blower will top out at a much lower rpm, like 55,000-65,000 rpm due to the limitations of the bearings, so it has a more aggressive design to the impeller, but a turbo has a less agressive impeller, and is able to spin north of 100,000rpm. So if you try to modify that turbo to act like a supercharger, you will most likely never get it to the rpms needed to make proper power.
Positive displacement superchargers are great for motors that don't make much torque to begin with, or are going into a heavy platform like a truck, suv, or 2010+ camaro. In an f-body, you don't need that instant huge torque spike at just off idle. All that will do is roast tires and will get old quickly. They also don't like to be spun high because they generate a lot of heat.
Your best bet is to pick up a used P1SC for dirt cheap, like $1000-1200 and get that setup completed for another $1000 depending on what you already have. The power delivery is more linear, and I think you'll be happier in the end.
Something to remember about the differences between a supercharger and turbo, is the rpms needed to generate the boost that they do. A centrifugal blower will top out at a much lower rpm, like 55,000-65,000 rpm due to the limitations of the bearings, so it has a more aggressive design to the impeller, but a turbo has a less agressive impeller, and is able to spin north of 100,000rpm. So if you try to modify that turbo to act like a supercharger, you will most likely never get it to the rpms needed to make proper power.
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I looked at doing a remote mount supercharger. I looked at it alot actually and found a few builds.
Pocket I believe is the username that did it in a thirdgen using a M122 or GT500 supercharger.
You could do it around 2-3K in parts but you'd need to be able to tune it.
I planned on going this route but no local tuners I talked to were willing to mess with it. So I cant do it as I couldnt tune it.
You can pick up the supercharger for 500-700 bucks, fab up a mounting plate run the piping upfront for an intercooler and basically have a very large centrifugal supercharger that wont exactly be pretty.
You would have to add a custom cowl. Also contend with endless waves of no's and haters cause its very unusual.
Plus is that with the new camaro's you can get a 12 rib supercharger pulley for your engine(big issue with pockets build was slippage at 8rib pulley)
so ya there is that.
edit:
Thread for info more info on thirdgen.org if your interested
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...t-part-ii.html
Pocket I believe is the username that did it in a thirdgen using a M122 or GT500 supercharger.
You could do it around 2-3K in parts but you'd need to be able to tune it.
I planned on going this route but no local tuners I talked to were willing to mess with it. So I cant do it as I couldnt tune it.
You can pick up the supercharger for 500-700 bucks, fab up a mounting plate run the piping upfront for an intercooler and basically have a very large centrifugal supercharger that wont exactly be pretty.
You would have to add a custom cowl. Also contend with endless waves of no's and haters cause its very unusual.
Plus is that with the new camaro's you can get a 12 rib supercharger pulley for your engine(big issue with pockets build was slippage at 8rib pulley)
so ya there is that.
edit:
Thread for info more info on thirdgen.org if your interested
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...t-part-ii.html
Thank you for posting this!
I'm new to LSx FI but not FI, and not to cars, and this is a rarely seen post full of honesty and good advice.
OP: Given the information in your post I don't think you are an idiot, but I don't think you have read enough on the engineering involved with any of the components you are referring to.
Example - a TVS2300 is NOT a twin screw. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger3.htm
It is a twin rotor roots type supercharger - air goes around the outside of the rotors instead of through the center - way less efficient, still awesome, still a positive displacement supercharger.
LS motors seem to respond fine with even cheap or poorly matched size turbo chargers, so in my case I'm thinking that two small T3 based turbos maybe Garrett maybe ebay...
In your case a good TVS1900 kit would probably be fine, especially if you can find a used one.
I'm new to LSx FI but not FI, and not to cars, and this is a rarely seen post full of honesty and good advice.
OP: Given the information in your post I don't think you are an idiot, but I don't think you have read enough on the engineering involved with any of the components you are referring to.
Example - a TVS2300 is NOT a twin screw. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger3.htm
It is a twin rotor roots type supercharger - air goes around the outside of the rotors instead of through the center - way less efficient, still awesome, still a positive displacement supercharger.
LS motors seem to respond fine with even cheap or poorly matched size turbo chargers, so in my case I'm thinking that two small T3 based turbos maybe Garrett maybe ebay...
In your case a good TVS1900 kit would probably be fine, especially if you can find a used one.
Here is something else to consider, and that's power delivery.
Positive displacement superchargers are great for motors that don't make much torque to begin with, or are going into a heavy platform like a truck, suv, or 2010+ camaro. In an f-body, you don't need that instant huge torque spike at just off idle. All that will do is roast tires and will get old quickly. They also don't like to be spun high because they generate a lot of heat.
Your best bet is to pick up a used P1SC for dirt cheap, like $1000-1200 and get that setup completed for another $1000 depending on what you already have. The power delivery is more linear, and I think you'll be happier in the end.
Something to remember about the differences between a supercharger and turbo, is the rpms needed to generate the boost that they do. A centrifugal blower will top out at a much lower rpm, like 55,000-65,000 rpm due to the limitations of the bearings, so it has a more aggressive design to the impeller, but a turbo has a less agressive impeller, and is able to spin north of 100,000rpm. So if you try to modify that turbo to act like a supercharger, you will most likely never get it to the rpms needed to make proper power.
Positive displacement superchargers are great for motors that don't make much torque to begin with, or are going into a heavy platform like a truck, suv, or 2010+ camaro. In an f-body, you don't need that instant huge torque spike at just off idle. All that will do is roast tires and will get old quickly. They also don't like to be spun high because they generate a lot of heat.
Your best bet is to pick up a used P1SC for dirt cheap, like $1000-1200 and get that setup completed for another $1000 depending on what you already have. The power delivery is more linear, and I think you'll be happier in the end.
Something to remember about the differences between a supercharger and turbo, is the rpms needed to generate the boost that they do. A centrifugal blower will top out at a much lower rpm, like 55,000-65,000 rpm due to the limitations of the bearings, so it has a more aggressive design to the impeller, but a turbo has a less agressive impeller, and is able to spin north of 100,000rpm. So if you try to modify that turbo to act like a supercharger, you will most likely never get it to the rpms needed to make proper power.
in original post when i mentioned dabbing a gear box, or adjusting the pulley ratio to achieve the rpm for desired boost, thats what i was hitting on. no thought is complete, I'm just trying to put a rough plan together for each option, price check, look at the work involved, and what type of power i will make. as i get a better idea of how each path would be structured, i will pick up more details, until i have a sound understanding of all aspects. and that is when i will start taking measurements and buying parts.