Mr_j_rod

Hey all!

I am thinking about doing some track racing this summer in Minnesota. I'm a complete newb so I need some advice. I can do some slick maneuvers in my Trans Am, but I want to learn how to track race. I have a 99 Trans Am with a T56 and factory rear end. This car stock is already fast, what I'm looking for is driving ability and handling improvements for my next upgrades. I'm just wondering if it will be worth my investment and what to expect with the following questions:

1.) I love my car. She's a show pony, what are the risks involved? How likely is it that I will damage the body beyond repair?

2.) Is this kind of car really competitive at autocross/track racing (not drag)? The handling is rather poor and can be improved, but when the wheels hit the road with upgrades, will I be able to compete against full independent cars?

3.) How durable is the T56 to this kind of abuse? Can it tolerate the low gear pounding?

4.) What are some of the unforeseen issues when getting into road track racing?

5.) Would I be better off buying a $1000 car I can beat the ever loving **** out of? lol.

Thanks for your advice everyone! Anything is appreciated.

cph15

Well here I'll do my best.

1) There are always risks involved in racing, so yes you can wreck your car. Being new doesn't really matter. When racing you should wonder WHEN you are going to wreck your car, not IF. Just keep that in mind..

2) These F-bodies do not really handle that great in a road course, but it can definitely be improved. When auto crossing and such, it's not so much about how fast you are compared to other cars, but how you can improve your time with adjustments.

3) The t-56 can put up with a fair amount of abuse for awhile, but not forever. If you are going to be abusing it I would recommend upgrading the sycros (blockers) with carbon units.

4) While racing, anything that is not completely tight will come loose. There are generally always some issues here or there that you will not see coming. This is to be expected.. kind of a paradox.

5) My advice, is that if you do not want to damage your car or hurt it in any way, do not race it. It will happen. Find something else to drive, or just hold off on the racing idea.

Andy1

If you've never raced before, perhaps you should consider a competition driving school to see if you even like it before investing in you personal car's upgrapdes and risking damage. Believe me, the school is much cheaper in the long run.

Andy1

FormulaJoe

iTrader: (5)

You'll need to go to a school. Also most if not all tracks wont let you on as a beginner without an instructor in the car. You're their to learn not race. Basically what you'll hear from everyone is to go out have fun but most importantly the first bunch of times your out there will be to LEARN. Seat time seat time seat time.

There is a few basics a beginner needs to have covered before getting their car on the track.

Check for leaks. Coolant, oil, brake fluid, and power steering. Inspect the car!!!! If you don't think you can well enough bring it to someone who you trust that will do a good inspection.
Check your brake lines, hard and rubber. Do a brake fluid and power steering fluid flush... It's a really smart idea to use high temp fluids in those. You need to make sure you have a good if not new set of brake pads and rotors in the front. Bring a extra set of pads and rotors.
You'll want to go out there on a set of good condition street tires to learn on.

Yes there is always risks but your going out their to learn not compete and unless you don't follow the instructions by your instructor then you'll be just fine.

You'll need LOTS of seat time to get to being competitive. Don't be surprised when that $1000 junker goes zipping past you your first few times out because the driver has more experience. "The nut that needs the most tightening is the nut behind the wheel". Worry about that before worrying about your cars performance abilities and upgrading them.

You wont really be "pounding" through the gears. You'll be wanting to focus on nice smooth shifting. Don't worry about the T56 capabilities right now, if you haven't done so yet a tranny fluid swap should probably be done.

Unforeseen issues would be power steering boiling over. Make sure no leaks and the fluid is new. Put a scrunchy around the cap to keep the fluid from getting all over when/if it boils over. Another thing that I'm a bit less familiar with is ls1s and oil scavenging or whatever. I think it's recommended to run an extra quart of oil when road course/autox driving. Might want to do an oil change before depending on how old the oil is, and after.

Have fun. ****'s addicting and expensive.

On another note.... You going to Brainderd? I live just west of the cities.

Mr_j_rod

YES! I am planning on hitting brainerd. I'm from Ohio and Mid Ohio is very, very strict with open track stuff. I have heard a bunch about how lax Brainerd is. It got me very excited to try racing now that I have more expendable income and the time to tinker. To be honest though, I think I'm way too nerveous to track the TA. I've done a lot of work to get it in the average condition it's in. I hate to say this, but I have been contemplating selling it becuase of how little joy I get out of it. It was easy to drive a TA almost year round in Ohio, (where I lived for most of my adult life.) but in the midwest I can barely get it out of my garage :/.

I'm thinking about building a AWD car I can drive for funsies in the winter too. Not just racing. I'm gotten much more experienced with building engines and I want to test me skill and understanding. I think I would be more happy with a vehicle I could drive in most any climate as well as race when the time and seasons allow.

Just to be clear, my decision regarding possibly selling my TA is multifactorial, not just becasue I am thinking about racing.

I do also plan on taking a racing class. I would be too afraid I would hurt someone else due to lack of experience. Keep the adivce coming, I find this very helpful/en;ightening

69TA

iTrader: (263)

Is there a Skip Barber program by you?

I did their 3 day course a long time ago and it was a great way to get into road racing
without worrying about the car side of things.

I really enjoyed racing their Viper and the open wheel cars.

Mr_j_rod

Not sure. I'll have to find out! Thanks for the recommendation!

brigade24

i would consider doing lots of autoxing before hitting the road course...this will teach you how to handle your machine.

funny enough...all the guys i've seen go off-roading during track days don't do any autox'ing...kinda important particularly if you're driving a sweet ride.

69TA

iTrader: (263)

the open wheel indy lite cars are very addictive
the harder you push them the better they handle and you are right there on the ground with the wind hitting you in the face...alot of fun.

they also run them rain or shine
and boy do they love to spin out with just the lightest touch of rain on the track
that too was also fun in it's own right
makes you appreciate how tough it is for indy racers to do what they do
especially when the weather starts to go south

EchoMirage

iTrader: (3)

wrong. once on a real road course, any Fbody truly comes alive, much more then a dinky little autox. with room to stretch their legs, the LS1 simply shines, and any car in decent shape will handle surprisingly well. maybe with worn out shocks, springs, and brakes, they seem to 'not handle that great', but in good condition, even bone stock components will handle perfectly well for any beginner.

j rod, as far as worrying about damage to your car, it will happen. it may be nothing more then rock chips and general dirt/dust, and it may come to suspension damage, body damage, or a complete wreck. the best drivers in the world in NASCAR, WRC, lemans, etc, still spin or wreck once in a while. and frankly, if youve never spun, youre not trying hard enough.

believe me, i know where youre coming from in regards to finish damage. but you have to realize that some kind of wear and tear, finish or structural, or damage comes hand in hand with enough track time. you can either tip toe around the track, hoping not to hurt anything, or you can accept what happens, fix it, and keep going.

given the chance, it would of course be best to build a dedicated track car; one you dont care about other then being structurally sound, and keep your nice car for enjoyment. but thats up to your funds, skill level, and storage space.

also, keep in mind that track days are NOT 'racing'. there is no time, no trophy, no positions. youre out there for fun and a learning experience.

1981TA

iTrader: (7)

Look at the two cars in my footer. One is way the hell more capable than I am as a driver. It will be that low buck appearing junker that runs circles around you on the track. But you know what? I've learned the most tracking the other car. It's not as fast. I have to get used to passing situations when it's not my preferred timing. I really have to think ahead on corners. I'm forced to be 360 degree aware. I have to plan better for exit speeds because it just doesn't have the horsepower or handling to compensate for being over-cautious with the brakes.

The point? It's mainly about the driver improving, not the car. I watched a friggin Pinto hang with way more powerful cars at a recent track event in CA.

With regards to how lax some tracks and organizations are with letting cars participate, that is a mixed bag. Having done both extremes, I prefer the more controlled environment. These are the tracks and orgs that enforce proper behavior and tech inspection, like MFBA does at Road America every May. They provide coaches for free to new drivers. They have group Q and A sessions after each time out on the track, which can be a solid way to learn.

Lax tracks might not do any of these things. Granted, you can probably get on them cheaper. But, do you really want to share a track with another car that hasn't been properly inspected, or a driver who thinks passing on a tight corner in a novice class is perfectly acceptable? Both can get people injured or killed.

jrwilliams95z28

1: theres risks in race, as there are driving on the street. but depending the type of racing your doing the level of risk varies. autocross is low risk, normally nothing to hit.

2: if you think these things cant handle your not driving right. fbody's are one of the best autoX cars out there. ask Sam Strano who one multiple SCCA championships in one.

3: t56 will handle anything you can throw at it for road racing.

4: spend more on tires and brake pads, power steering cooler is worth the buy to help prolong the pumps life.

5: spend the $1000 on some sticky road race tires and go rip it up

Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

So when you say "race", I presume you mean simply driving your car on a "race" track; not actually competing on the track to win something.

If you're looking to learn and simply want to experience the joy of driving your car on the track, then yes, it can be done. If you want that to be a successful experience, you must first accept that your focus while on the track is learning how to drive, not racing. When you first get started, you (the driver) will be the primary limitation of performance on the track, not the car. I remember getting left in the dust by an instructor in a Mini Cooper during my first session in a HPDE.

There are some wear items that come with this and there's always risk involved with driving on the track, however if you take care of the car and make sound decisions you can still have a daily driver that handles well on the track.

Down the road, a (hopefully cheaper) dedicated race car is the way to go. You'll eventually want to push closer to the limits in order to improve as a driver and that's not a good experience with your daily driver.

Furthermore, you may be motivated to mod your street car to a more track-oriented setup. I'm going down that road myself.....while it's still bearable for me right now, the closer my street car gets to a track car, the more of a pain in the a$$ it becomes to drive it on the street.

gscherer78ta

iTrader: (1)

Go Race! I agree with the comments already posted regarding that you're really just learning how to drive at first, learning vehicle dynamics, turning, and exiting.

It's so much fun, AutoX is fun too, just that those events are very short and it takes a lot of them to get decent seat time.

1981TA

iTrader: (7)

...and for crappy rainy days, get Gran Turismo 5 or 6 and a Logitech G27 steering wheel controller. Someone suggested that in a different thread and you know what? Not only is it fun, it actually does help hone your skills.

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

If your car is a show piece better wrap it in a condom, rock chips, rubber boogers all over it.

There is a risk associated with EVERYTHING in life, remember that.

Here is how I would do it. You don't need to go to a "school". Find your local SCCA chapter and do a few Autocross events, learn some car control....get an experienced driver to ride with you(cheap instruction). Do some HPDE events first and THEN if you see like and can afford it as it's not cheap.


I have no desire to have a dedicated track car, that's why I bought a 180,000 mile chassis...it's a good "10 footer" but has it's share of boo boo's on it.

I like being able to "use" the car. In the summer I swap all the street stuff onto the car and enjoy it. Winter time comes, in go the seats, on go the race pads and tires.

A "typical" track weekend's cost AFTER you get to the track goes something like this:

Event cost: $385-$450 a weekend depending on who is putting on the event.
Hotel rooms: $100-$150 a night.
Tires: take a 1/3 off what they cost.
Brakes: take a 1/3 off what they cost
Fuel: I burn TWO tanks a day on track($130 a day)
Food, water blah blah blah.

You can see where a $1000 for a weekend is typical and that's if you don't break anything. It goes up from there as you get faster....you have been warned LOL.


Unless you have a roll caged up "race" car, you won't be "racing" on any track, anywhere. Any race series requires a full cage, fire system, fire suit etc.

What most of us guys do in here is called HPDE, read and watch here:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/

The Fbody is a great platform for this, why? Because if you crash it you can go to any used yard, buy a body, swap all the stuff over and keep on truckin'.

The only mods you need to the car for the first event are:

Fresh fluids, at least an oil change. Run the oil 1 quart over full.
Flush the brake fluid, put in ATE or similar high temp fluid.
Decent pads for the front of the car, Hawk DTC30 or better(front only).

After you do a couple of events and see the Visa/Mastercard is about to be put into orbit buy a seat, a good seat that you can swap in/out of the car for events.

This is the MOST important thing, modding the car will not make you faster, your brain will....aka seat time. The drag racer mentality of buying go fast parts in road racing doesn't work the same here. Learning to deal with brain overload and the car moving around makes you faster.

gscherer78ta

iTrader: (1)

I'm coming to find out just how true this statement is. I did an AutoX event this weekend in my '78 TA, which is all factory stock and a good show car, and I had a blast. I wasn't the fastest guy out there and I still had a great time working on seat time- how does the car feel. I picked a few turns that I thought were key and focused on approaching and exiting those turns. The rest of the course was fun too but, I only had the brain bandwidth to really focus on few turns. The other thing that I have been finding very helpful to my own drving is to man the cones and watch other drivers and how they are doing it.

TEDSgrad

Absolutely get out there. Learn about yourself (and go around the track, too). Learn to handle all kinds of situations (on track, too). Learn to handle the twists, turns, hills, debris, etc. - in life and on track. Have fun!!
A - experts
B
C - some experience
D - Novice
A & B are usually the ones that crash - and they usually can afford it. These events can't be put on without C & D (where do you think A & B come from). Everyone is needed/encouraged. Have fun - learn.


You don't have to prove anything. No one will ever dis you if you're out having fun (D class) and you're willing to learn, engage, etc.

Things do happen when you start to push (not me).

B Stead

I would keep the folded-sheet-metal unibody car for the street.

And so the least expensive car that can make a good race car is the Pontiac Solstice. Why does the Solstice make a good race car ? Well, because it has a large frame. A stiff suspension will really work with the strong frame and a roll bar or roll cage will really work. (You won't even find a Porsche that has what the Solstice has.)

Another idea is to build a race car from scratch and then not have any OEM equipment or trim: http://www.kbhscape.com/racing.htm .

Or get a high mileage C5 Corvette for about $10,000. Then replace engine and transmission. Gut the interior. Add roll bar or roll cage. Put on a GM T1 suspension kit and so on. The high mileage on the massive C5 frame is nothing to worry about...except for possible rust
.

EchoMirage

iTrader: (3)

thousands of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gen racers would disagree with you. the 4th gen body is much stiffer then the previous years, and with welded SFCs, its rock solid.

if youre going to cage it, it doesnt matter what it is.....the cage itself will add immense rigidity.