Wideband/Running lean issue
05-21-2014, 12:42 PM
#1
Wideband/Running lean issue Not sure where to put this, but figured it would get more replies and help in here. Anyway, onto the story....
I have an Innovate MTX-L wideband in my car. I feel it's important to note that this is the second particular MTX-L I have had in the car. First one failed completely, but before it did it started showing lean under WOT. That brings us to my current issue. I had my tune touched up a couple of weekends ago on the dyno. We were just using my wideband to go off of. Prior to putting the car on the dyno the wideband was acting a little funky. Gave me an error code, somewhat jumpy readings, etc. It did start acting "normal" before the car was actually on the dyno though. Anyway, we got the car tuned and it was sitting around 11.0-11.1 at WOT. This is on E85 using the gas scale obviously. I beat on the car a bit that night and all was well.
Fast forward to last weekend and the wideband started showing 12.2 at WOT. Same fuel was in the car as was on the dyno. Weather hadn't changed much at all. Car ran no different and pulled clean to 5500 or so. I was worried to run it too hard because of the wideband readings. I first thought maybe a fuel pump was taking a dump (I have a 255 as the primary and a 340 as secondary on a Hobbs). A buddy and I took out the pumps and noticed that the 340 no longer had the filter sock on it. The 255 sock looked fine though. I thought maybe the 340 sucked something up and swithced it out for a brand new one my buddy had. Took the car back out, and same thing. This time it was going even more lean. It touched the 14's at one point. I quickly backed off and didn't do anymore pulls.
Next, I thought maybe the sensor on the wideband was going bad. So, I replaced it with a brand new one. Guess what? Same readings as the old sensor. I then tried throwing more fuel at it in the tune. More of the same on the wideband, going lean. I went back through some old logs and compared them to some of the new ones where it's going lean. The injector duty cycle was showing damn near the same at similar boost levels. Also I need to mention that I do have a FPR gauge in the car. It shows pressure rising with boost just like it always has.
So my questions are...
Could my 255 possibly be weak but still have enough to bring the pressure up to where it should be? Wouldn't a weak 255 and a good 340 be more than enough to supply my car on 8-9 lbs?
Wideband going out again? If so, could it be the way I have it wired up? I know the older innovates were finicky when not grounded correctly. Mine is grounded to a stud under the kick panel, along with my other gauges. Could a bad ground throw off the wideband only at WOT though? It reads the same idling and cruising. Could I somehow be slowly killing these gauges?
The only other thing I can think to check is the fuelab filter. Once again though, it doesn't make sense for it to be that if fuel pressure is still the same and rises in boost. I did check the plugs too and they look good. I figure if the car was running that lean I would see it on the plugs or it would be breaking up too. I am going to switch out the wideband for an AEM unit a buddy has to check that too. Just wanted to get some opinions and see what others think.
I have an Innovate MTX-L wideband in my car. I feel it's important to note that this is the second particular MTX-L I have had in the car. First one failed completely, but before it did it started showing lean under WOT. That brings us to my current issue. I had my tune touched up a couple of weekends ago on the dyno. We were just using my wideband to go off of. Prior to putting the car on the dyno the wideband was acting a little funky. Gave me an error code, somewhat jumpy readings, etc. It did start acting "normal" before the car was actually on the dyno though. Anyway, we got the car tuned and it was sitting around 11.0-11.1 at WOT. This is on E85 using the gas scale obviously. I beat on the car a bit that night and all was well.
Fast forward to last weekend and the wideband started showing 12.2 at WOT. Same fuel was in the car as was on the dyno. Weather hadn't changed much at all. Car ran no different and pulled clean to 5500 or so. I was worried to run it too hard because of the wideband readings. I first thought maybe a fuel pump was taking a dump (I have a 255 as the primary and a 340 as secondary on a Hobbs). A buddy and I took out the pumps and noticed that the 340 no longer had the filter sock on it. The 255 sock looked fine though. I thought maybe the 340 sucked something up and swithced it out for a brand new one my buddy had. Took the car back out, and same thing. This time it was going even more lean. It touched the 14's at one point. I quickly backed off and didn't do anymore pulls.
Next, I thought maybe the sensor on the wideband was going bad. So, I replaced it with a brand new one. Guess what? Same readings as the old sensor. I then tried throwing more fuel at it in the tune. More of the same on the wideband, going lean. I went back through some old logs and compared them to some of the new ones where it's going lean. The injector duty cycle was showing damn near the same at similar boost levels. Also I need to mention that I do have a FPR gauge in the car. It shows pressure rising with boost just like it always has.
So my questions are...
Could my 255 possibly be weak but still have enough to bring the pressure up to where it should be? Wouldn't a weak 255 and a good 340 be more than enough to supply my car on 8-9 lbs?
Wideband going out again? If so, could it be the way I have it wired up? I know the older innovates were finicky when not grounded correctly. Mine is grounded to a stud under the kick panel, along with my other gauges. Could a bad ground throw off the wideband only at WOT though? It reads the same idling and cruising. Could I somehow be slowly killing these gauges?
The only other thing I can think to check is the fuelab filter. Once again though, it doesn't make sense for it to be that if fuel pressure is still the same and rises in boost. I did check the plugs too and they look good. I figure if the car was running that lean I would see it on the plugs or it would be breaking up too. I am going to switch out the wideband for an AEM unit a buddy has to check that too. Just wanted to get some opinions and see what others think.
05-21-2014, 01:10 PM
#2
9 Second Club
Where is the sensor mounted ?
Is the engine running fine ?
Misfires or exhaust leaks can all cause false lean readings. A dodgy sensor can give strange readings. An overheating sensor could throw strange readings.
After all that, buy an NGK AFX and forget the Innovate
But more on readings. Are cruise, idle, and all other mods of running giving normal and repeatable readings on the wideband ?
Is the lean reading steady, erratic, intermittent ?
Is the engine running fine ?
Misfires or exhaust leaks can all cause false lean readings. A dodgy sensor can give strange readings. An overheating sensor could throw strange readings.
After all that, buy an NGK AFX and forget the Innovate
But more on readings. Are cruise, idle, and all other mods of running giving normal and repeatable readings on the wideband ?
Is the lean reading steady, erratic, intermittent ?
05-21-2014, 02:19 PM
#3
The sensor is located basically straight down from the BOV. I would say a good 18" or so from the turbo. No closer than my buddies turbo setup who runs the AEM wideband.
Engine is running fine. Starts and idles like normal. Cruises normal. Comes into boost normal, etc. Cruise and idle AFR's seem to be the same as before. Haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary outside of the WOT AFR. The WOT reading started off shooting into the high 11's low 12 range. Then it started bumping up gradually it seemed. I wish I could give a more accurate discription but I am hesitant to really push it hard with the readings being so off at WOT. It seems to go leaner and leaner the higher the RPM's climb though. If I have it in OD on the highway and step down enough to build boost but not downshift, the AFR's drop to the mid 11's like they should.
I am definitely going to try a different wideband and the NGK is at the top of my list. Only thing that keeps me from going that route right now is the fact that the gauge is a bear to mount and I have the 3 vent gauge pod. I have used an AEM before but hate how jumpy it is in HPTuners and it seems that you always have to adjust the offset.
Appreciate the help.
05-21-2014, 05:03 PM
#4
9 Second Club
It seems to go leaner and leaner the higher the RPM's climb though. If I have it in OD on the highway and step down enough to build boost but not downshift, the AFR's drop to the mid 11's like they should.
I am definitely going to try a different wideband and the NGK is at the top of my list. Only thing that keeps me from going that route right now is the fact that the gauge is a bear to mount and I have the 3 vent gauge pod. I have used an AEM before but hate how jumpy it is in HPTuners and it seems that you always have to adjust the offset.
Appreciate the help.
I am definitely going to try a different wideband and the NGK is at the top of my list. Only thing that keeps me from going that route right now is the fact that the gauge is a bear to mount and I have the 3 vent gauge pod. I have used an AEM before but hate how jumpy it is in HPTuners and it seems that you always have to adjust the offset.
Appreciate the help.
So basically at lower engine loads AFR's appear fine, but when you push hard AFR's go lean. IDC's are the same
That could easily be a sign of a failing or lacking fuel supply problem
Pressure dropping, failing pump etc etc
05-22-2014, 09:05 AM
#6
9 Second Club
Generally speaking with a boost referenced FPR, fuel pressure should rise 1:1 with boost.
This isnt always strictly true in reality. It should, but it doesnt always do. But it should be fairly close with a good working system
Either way, you'd be looking for anything unusual
This isnt always strictly true in reality. It should, but it doesnt always do. But it should be fairly close with a good working system
Either way, you'd be looking for anything unusual
05-22-2014, 10:10 AM
#7
My AEM has a different mindset every year. We tune it on the dyno, my tuners WB reads one thing (11.0-11.1) through the entire pull. Mine will vary between 10.9-11.5. I trust his sensor much much more than mine so i use mine as a reference, if its in that range, im good. That was 2 years ago. This past year it decided 11.2-11.6 was good enough while my tuners WB still read 11.0-11.1 through the pulls. Once again had to just use mine as reference. E85 is super forgiving so as long i have good fuel pressure and i dont see 12s, i dont worry about it. I dont have that much timing in the car so im ok with it. i trust the tune in the car.
That being said i will switch to an NGK but im in same boat, its gonna be a royal pain changing it all out
That being said i will switch to an NGK but im in same boat, its gonna be a royal pain changing it all out
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05-27-2014, 07:43 AM
#11
Alright, I wanted to update this thread with some things I have tried, and what the car is currently doing.
I started with getting another wideband wired up. My buddy had an AEM with very little use on it that he let me borrow. This showed the same as my Innovate, lean. Next a buddy and I replaced the primary pump with another 255, still lean. Next, I had a friend suggest that maybe my 2nd pump wasn't kicking on via the hobbs switch. I jumped the hobbs connector, made sure that both pumps were on full time, and took it for a drive. That had no change to it at all.
I have added almost 30% fuel in some areas to try and get the AFR's in check. It has helped, but it is also making my duty cycle sky rocket. Last year on 14 lbs. of boost the IDC was 78%. Now, it's over 100%. Something isn't right. I have the FIC 127# injectors, a walbro 255 and a Racetronix 340, -8 feed, stock feed is return, and a FPR on E85. I should have more than enough fuel on 14 lbs. of boost.
Yesterday I checked all the plugs and wires. They all looked good except for a couple that looked lean. The most lean plug was #1. My buddy then started to unplug the injectors one at a time to see if the idle changed. The first one he unplugged was #1. No change, or VERY little to the idle quality and AFR's stayed the same. Next one he unplugged was #3 and bam, AFR's shot up to the 15.5-16 range and you could definitely hear the change in idle quality. Tested a few other injectors and the same thing happened. Only #1 unplugged would not change the idle quality or AFR readings. Is it safe to say that injector could be partially clogged?
After putting everything back together again I started to drive the car back home. It was acting like it had a misfire so I checked all the plugs and wires again and they were intact. Not sure what's going on now, unless the injector somehow got more clogged, but it was running like crap. Anyway, I got it home and pulled out the injectors and am sending them off today to be cleaned and flowed. Hopefully this turns up something and I can get the car back to normal.
I know weird things happen but it's strange that the car seemed fine on the dyno and then all of the sudden started to run lean. Would it make sense that my car this year would need less fuel up top than last years setup with a different cam and turbo? My tuner took some fuel out when on the dyno but AFR's were in check the whole way. Just wondering if that could be normal.
I started with getting another wideband wired up. My buddy had an AEM with very little use on it that he let me borrow. This showed the same as my Innovate, lean. Next a buddy and I replaced the primary pump with another 255, still lean. Next, I had a friend suggest that maybe my 2nd pump wasn't kicking on via the hobbs switch. I jumped the hobbs connector, made sure that both pumps were on full time, and took it for a drive. That had no change to it at all.
I have added almost 30% fuel in some areas to try and get the AFR's in check. It has helped, but it is also making my duty cycle sky rocket. Last year on 14 lbs. of boost the IDC was 78%. Now, it's over 100%. Something isn't right. I have the FIC 127# injectors, a walbro 255 and a Racetronix 340, -8 feed, stock feed is return, and a FPR on E85. I should have more than enough fuel on 14 lbs. of boost.
Yesterday I checked all the plugs and wires. They all looked good except for a couple that looked lean. The most lean plug was #1. My buddy then started to unplug the injectors one at a time to see if the idle changed. The first one he unplugged was #1. No change, or VERY little to the idle quality and AFR's stayed the same. Next one he unplugged was #3 and bam, AFR's shot up to the 15.5-16 range and you could definitely hear the change in idle quality. Tested a few other injectors and the same thing happened. Only #1 unplugged would not change the idle quality or AFR readings. Is it safe to say that injector could be partially clogged?
After putting everything back together again I started to drive the car back home. It was acting like it had a misfire so I checked all the plugs and wires again and they were intact. Not sure what's going on now, unless the injector somehow got more clogged, but it was running like crap. Anyway, I got it home and pulled out the injectors and am sending them off today to be cleaned and flowed. Hopefully this turns up something and I can get the car back to normal.
I know weird things happen but it's strange that the car seemed fine on the dyno and then all of the sudden started to run lean. Would it make sense that my car this year would need less fuel up top than last years setup with a different cam and turbo? My tuner took some fuel out when on the dyno but AFR's were in check the whole way. Just wondering if that could be normal.
05-27-2014, 08:38 AM
#12
9 Second Club
One cylinder going down would be more awkward to detect if there is a dodgy injector
But all that ******* about with pumps etc....5 mins checking fuel pressure would have negated that.
But all that ******* about with pumps etc....5 mins checking fuel pressure would have negated that.
05-27-2014, 09:17 AM
#13
I checked the fuel pressure, I have a gauge mounted in the car. Anyway, it took me all of 5 minutes to rule out the pumps since I have the "trap door" cut in the hatch. I thought maybe a pump could have been going weak but still showed good fuel pressure.
05-27-2014, 09:59 AM
#14
9 Second Club
Exactly what I said.
Diagnosing a faulty injector can be very difficult. You could easily drive on 7 cylinders and barely notice any difference.
Yes unplugging an injector may show a potential problem, but what you're doing by having the injectors tested is of course safest.
You should also ensure each injector is actually getting a signal and 12v, in case the problem is electrical, rather than mechanical.
Does the injector that appears faulty operate when you power it up manually ?
Diagnosing a faulty injector can be very difficult. You could easily drive on 7 cylinders and barely notice any difference.
Yes unplugging an injector may show a potential problem, but what you're doing by having the injectors tested is of course safest.
You should also ensure each injector is actually getting a signal and 12v, in case the problem is electrical, rather than mechanical.
Does the injector that appears faulty operate when you power it up manually ?
05-27-2014, 12:32 PM
#17
Yeah, same here. I couldn't find it in the bottom of the tank. Maybe one was never on it. I have done dumber things before, ha. The fuel filter itself looked perfect though. I suppose anything can happen. I just hope this fixes the issue.
05-27-2014, 09:18 PM
#18
So I pulled all the plugs tonight. A buddy helped me check them the other night and we reinstalled them. Anyway, #1 plug was cracked. No wonder the afr or idle didn't change when that injector was unplugged. Back to square one possibly. Hopefully the injector test comes up with something. If not, no idea what to do next.
05-28-2014, 01:12 AM
#19
Your injectors are clogged from the e85.
I ran a full summer without issue. 2nd summer I started driving the car june 1st and by mid july I was adding fuel and bumping my pressure up every 2 weeks.
Some time around September mid way through a wot pull the car started to miss badly. Changed the plugs with no change in how the car ran.
Started unplugging injectors and atleast three were completely dead. Absolutely no change in afr or idle quality.
Sent them off to fuel injector connection and he said they all were off extremely bad. He could not get them clean at first. Said he let them soak in some **** over night and was able to flow them to 72lb/hr. I then had him resize to 80s. They are genuine siemens injectors.
When I asked what I should do he said change filters very often. Then to just send them in for cleaning twice a year. It is free when you buy them from FIC or have the injector resized by them. He also recommended making a gas tune and to run a tank of that through every once in a while, that may prevent it all together.
Of course sending them in then you'll be down for the week but for me that is okay since I drive it on the weekend anyway. Send them off on monday and have em back and in the car by friday!
I'm going to keep running the corn but will be removing the injectors during winter and sending them in come spring time, then again around end of july maybe and that should prevent it.
Noone knows what is in the e85 that is causing it as far as I know.
I ran a full summer without issue. 2nd summer I started driving the car june 1st and by mid july I was adding fuel and bumping my pressure up every 2 weeks.
Some time around September mid way through a wot pull the car started to miss badly. Changed the plugs with no change in how the car ran.
Started unplugging injectors and atleast three were completely dead. Absolutely no change in afr or idle quality.
Sent them off to fuel injector connection and he said they all were off extremely bad. He could not get them clean at first. Said he let them soak in some **** over night and was able to flow them to 72lb/hr. I then had him resize to 80s. They are genuine siemens injectors.
When I asked what I should do he said change filters very often. Then to just send them in for cleaning twice a year. It is free when you buy them from FIC or have the injector resized by them. He also recommended making a gas tune and to run a tank of that through every once in a while, that may prevent it all together.
Of course sending them in then you'll be down for the week but for me that is okay since I drive it on the weekend anyway. Send them off on monday and have em back and in the car by friday!
I'm going to keep running the corn but will be removing the injectors during winter and sending them in come spring time, then again around end of july maybe and that should prevent it.
Noone knows what is in the e85 that is causing it as far as I know.
05-28-2014, 01:21 AM
#20
Note that all the cylinders that had dead injectors had very lean looking plugs.
The whole time before I started doing inspections of things I too thought my wideband was taking a ****. Car was running good and felt fine. Also the motor hadn't blown yet lol.
I was seeing afrs of 12.50-14.00 at wot and made many many pulls to 150mph/7k rpm with 13lbs and 18* timing like this. Even went to the track and made 6 passes. A week after the track the car started to miss badly.
Pistons are all still intact when I took the heads off this winter.
I'd definitely say e85 is some forgiving fuel!
The whole time before I started doing inspections of things I too thought my wideband was taking a ****. Car was running good and felt fine. Also the motor hadn't blown yet lol.
I was seeing afrs of 12.50-14.00 at wot and made many many pulls to 150mph/7k rpm with 13lbs and 18* timing like this. Even went to the track and made 6 passes. A week after the track the car started to miss badly.
Pistons are all still intact when I took the heads off this winter.
I'd definitely say e85 is some forgiving fuel!