sited12

I am doing a research paper on this topic and would like to hear what everyone thinks. Kind of thoughts from achual drag racers. This is all in a drag race not a highway race or road race. Also if you have any websites with good articles on this debate let me know. Let me hear everyones .02.

minty

60 ft determines races and thats TORQUE talking right there....Thats what you need for a street racing car.
But hey, what would I know? <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

RAGEman

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by minty:
<strong>60 ft determines races and thats TORQUE talking right there</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm...I think gearing has a lot to do with it too. One thing you can put in your paper is the quote in my sig... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

sited12

Hey minty is that a hint that your car is a stroker? That would be the best way to make lots of torque. Yeah i mainly have so far that if you are still accelerating its torque but if you are holding top speed thats horsepower. Something sort of along those lines. Minty i am going to use yours as a famous chicago street racer once said and your quote. But i will leave your name out of it.

sited12

Rageman that is awesome. So true so true.

Colonel

The old adage of "TQ gets you moving and HP keeps you there" is very misleading. Average HP to the ground over the course of 1320 ft. That's what fights inertia and drag to get you to the finish line. Yes, this starts at the engine but more important than how much power comes from the crankshaft is what that power does before it gets to the tires. Conversion of energy...this is the job of the converter, the transmission gearing, the rearend gearing, and the tire circumference (together these things determine your overall gearing.) It's not so important what RPM range your engine makes power, but rather using that power, wherever it may take place, to it's fullest potential. This means proper gearing plain and simple.

When people say "has good TQ" what they often mean is that it has good low RPM HP. As Rageman said, HP is merely a function of TQ and RPM. It's a measure of work. TQ in itself does NO work (that means TQ in itself doesn't accelerate your car.) TQ is a measure of force (rotational force more specifically.) Only once motion takes place has work taken place and that work can be measured in HP but not TQ.

You can't increase TQ at a given RPM without also increasing HP since TQ at RPM and HP are THE SAME THING.

McRat

Torque is meaningless. 10,000 ftlbs at 0 rpm is good for testing torsional rigidity, but not much else.

Drag bikes have very little torque. So do Formula One cars. Seems to me that they scoot along OK.

Always look at "area under the curve" when evaluating HP and plot it against gear spacing. This will tell you how well the motor is getting the job done.

FEAR THE LS1

iTrader: (1)

Would this be true then...

If I have a bone stock A4 LS1 and dynod it, lets say I get 310 rwp and 290 tq on the dyno ( these are just examples etc)

Now if I took the same car and added 3.73 gears, a little higher stall converter and some drag radials or QTPs even, and some upgraded suspension parts, toque arm, shocks, etc then dyno'd the same car...

Would the HP still be 310 but the torque would increase?

Based on what is said above if I have a 310 hp engine, depending on what drive train I have this affects the cars toqrue?

Lee

RAGEman

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Colonel:
<strong>The old adage of "TQ gets you moving and HP keeps you there" is very misleading. Average HP to the ground over the course of 1320 ft. That's what fights inertia and drag to get you to the finish line. Yes, this starts at the engine but more important than how much power comes from the crankshaft is what that power does before it gets to the tires. Conversion of energy...this is the job of the converter, the transmission gearing, the rearend gearing, and the tire circumference (together these things determine your overall gearing.) It's not so important what RPM range your engine makes power, but rather using that power, wherever it may take place, to it's fullest potential. This means proper gearing plain and simple.

When people say "has good TQ" what they often mean is that it has good low RPM HP. As Rageman said, HP is merely a function of TQ and RPM. It's a measure of work. TQ in itself does NO work (that means TQ in itself doesn't accelerate your car.) TQ is a measure of force (rotational force more specifically.) Only once motion takes place has work taken place and that work can be measured in HP but not TQ.

You can't increase TQ at a given RPM without also increasing HP since TQ at RPM and HP are THE SAME THING.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've tought you well, I see. You're a very quick learner, and you make me very proud. <img border="0" alt="[whiner]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" /> Keep up the good work!

<img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />

RAGEman

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by FEAR THE LS1:
<strong>Would this be true then...

If I have a bone stock A4 LS1 and dynod it, lets say I get 310 rwp and 290 tq on the dyno ( these are just examples etc)

Now if I took the same car and added 3.73 gears, a little higher stall converter and some drag radials or QTPs even, and some upgraded suspension parts, toque arm, shocks, etc then dyno'd the same car...

Would the HP still be 310 but the torque would increase?

Based on what is said above if I have a 310 hp engine, depending on what drive train I have this affects the cars toqrue?

Lee</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't want to hijack this thread, but I sent you an E-mail a while back about the clutch setup you had for sale a while back...is ANY of it left? You can just PM me or E-mail me or whatever floats your boat.

FEAR THE LS1

iTrader: (1)

Hey RageMan,

I sent you a PM.

Lee

pedaltothemetal

Torque is twisting force. Like a torque wrench. The more muscle behind the torque wrench the more the torque. In drag racing, think of the torque as the twisting force from the tires to the pavement produced by the muscle of the engine. This torque is accelerating the car. And the bigger the engine the more the muscle. That's why we call our cars "muscle cars". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
HP on the other hand is the power this twisting force can produce. The faster the twisting rate, the more the horsepower. That's why a bigger cam that can spin to a higher rpm has more HP VS a smaller cam on the same engine. It is not only spinning faster, but is building this rate of twist much faster than a smaller cam.
I'm sure everyone has ridden a bicycle. That would be the best analogy to torque and hp with gearing that you can really relate to. Engine size can be related to leg strength. Your peak is when you can't spin the pedals any faster. Sprinting is how fast you can accelerate the pedals. And how fast you go depends on your leg strength and how much fast twitch muscles you have. Yeah I used be a roadie!

Got it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />
Leo

<small>[ December 04, 2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: pedaltothemetal ]</small>

Bob Cosby

What Stephen said. Here's a good link:

http://mclements.net/mrc-PowerTorque.html

Rpm2800

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Bob Cosby:
<strong>

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To try to put it as simple as possible. The engine makes TQ (not hp). Torque is the force or how hard the crakshaft twist.


An engine does not actually make hp. Hp is really just a sort of figurative measure of TQ at at a given Rpm. (Over time)

HP is how much TQ you have at a certain RPM whether that RPM be low or high. But an engine does not really "make" Hp It's again just a measurement of how much torque you make over time or at a given RPM(low or high) . Though many people seem to think of it(HP) as just high rpm.

Whatever TQ the engine makes at a given RPM is your so called "Horsepower".

If you have alot of high RPM "HP" it's because your engine can still twist the crank hard at those high Rpms. (can still make good TQ at those high RPM's)

<small>[ December 09, 2002, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Rpm2800 ]</small>

Rpm2800

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Leo[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's kinda like 2 sprinter. Take a football player who runs the 40 yd dash. And a track runner who runs the 100 meter dash.

They can both fly, but football guys train for more explosive strength whereas , track guys need more stamina with their speed.

If they race in the 100. The football guys usually will be ahead for the fist 40 or so, or say they are tied for the first 40yds. Then the track guys just starts to suck him up from there.

Their legs were making the same TQ or driving force, for each step, but as their legs started moving faster and faster (RPM), The football guys muscles tired out and provided him with less force for each step. Whereas the track guy trained to have more muscle stamina and "wind" or (TQ at higher Rpm). So the force in each of his steps remained even when their legs startd moving faster and faster. He sustained his force at higher Rpm insted of letting if fall of.

When they first started , at say 2steps per second , the football player may have had 140lbs of force(TQ) per step (RPM) and be winning, vs the track guy making say 100lbs, But as they increased to 4 steps per second(RPM) at say the 40yd mark the football guy fell off to 50 lbs of force per step. Whereas the track guys legs kept making 90-100 lbs of force even at 4 steps p/sec all the way down the track.

The track guys may not have have had more TQ, but he could breath and still make good TQ or (HP) over time as Rpm increased.

(The track guy had the better heads and cam setup. LOL)

I ran track and played ball so i can relate. LOL.

It's kinda like Michael Johnson said when someone asked him about sprinting.... It's not exactly about who is the fastest , but who can keep their speed all through the race.

When I would come out of football, and go straight to track, at first I would sometimes get caught at about the 40 - 60 yd mark in the 100m by guys who were not as fast as me, but could keep their speed longer. My muscles would give out faster being used to the 40yd dash vs them training for the 100m. ( I guess they had more TQ,"HP" under the curve or useable TQ,and "hp").

<small>[ December 09, 2002, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Rpm2800 ]</small>