Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Hey All,

I just had a 2002 SS M6 at my shop for tuning and was looking for some other AFR head dyno to compare to besides the AFR shop car. Though I did not expect to see the 480RWHP advertised, we are not even close as far as a rough guesstimate. The car has all the normal bolt-ons, mainly SLP like the lid, LT headers w/ cats, SLP catback, SLP underdrive pulley and a stock LS6 intake & MAF. He did use the AFR 205 CNC heads milled to 62cc chamber and the recommended 224/228 XER cam AFR sold him.

I know the test car had off road pipes, full roller rockers, FAST 90mm intake & TB and 85mm intake. I figure in round numbers the cats are costing him 10HP or so, full roller rockers 5HP, FAST 90mm intake & TB and 85mm MAF abdout 15HP which would be approx 30RWHP off. Maybe the headers are 5HP difference and the cat back 10-15HP so that would make her 50RWHP off the 480 mark, and we are still not close. I will say that we picked up 86RWHP and 50RWT and the HP peak moved from 5500-6500, nice gains for just heads, cam and UD pulley for sure. Even if my dyno is off the 4-5% like some suspect, we are still off quite a bit.

Not bashing AFR at all and looking for a little info from other independent shops that have installed AFRs to see what everyone else is coming up with. Thanks.

One thing I forgot since I cannot post a graph. The A/F was at 13.0-1 except for 4400 where I have it at 12.6-1, and timing was 28-29* from 5200-6800 and no KR.

Mike Norris

gomer

iTrader: (13)

You can check Pdd's results in the dyno section... They made me kinda sad, I'd been really hoping these heads would be the *** kickers they'd been hyped up as.

Can you post up a before and after graph on the car you just did?

PREDATOR-Z

What numbers are you at? Perhaps a dyno graph to see a little.
BTW you can't just substract hp for parts and call it a day. What was your base hp?
You are also in FL. So that account for some hp loss too.
Give us some visual info

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the quick responses. I did a search but did not go back far enough. I wish we were as close as pdd. I know you cannot throw out a certain HP number for each mod, but had to make some kind of general statement on it. It would be a lot easier to have exactly what AFR had and then have a true apples to apples comparison.

I also added in the first post about the dyno graph. I apologize for not being able to post it, but gave a general idea on where we are at. Though we are in Florida, the numbers should still be close SAE corrected. Hopefully we have more than just one independent test. What did pdd start at with bolt-ons if anyone know? Like I said, we did pick up 84RWHP and 50RWT from just heads, cam, underdrive pulley and tuning and from that point it is pretty good. Just the final numbers are off for sure. If we had done what pdd did, i would have no complaints compared to where we are.

Thanks again.

Mike Norris

2xLS1

iTrader: (25)

Any reason you are just posting the gain numbers and not the actual peak numbers?

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Since the numbers are so low from what they should be in respect to AFR, I am not posting the actual numers until I can get some other comparisons. Maybe there is a good explanantion to it. The customer is also contacting AFR and faxing them the dyno sheets to see what they have to say. The gains are very good in relation to what was added as I mentioned. Later.

Mike Norris

383ss

iTrader: (14)

ya, why won't you say what the numbers were???

how were the TQ numbers?? that is where the 205's are supposed to be great

kumar75150

what did he make? like 420rwhp?

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

The RWT is about 20-25 under what the RWHP and pretty much in line with a normal heads/cam car. I deal with AFR and do not want to come across as bashing them and for that reason I am not mentioning the numbers. I am just looking for comparisons to make a better judgement instead of saying they are a POS. I did not sell them or do the install either so that is another part of the equation, but everything seems fine install wise.

420 would have been nice. Thanks.

Mike Norris

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

I assume the clutch was good?

Rookie

How does it compare with other heads/cam installs you have done?

On Edit: Sorry, I see you answered that in your previous post. Forgive me!

FASTONE

Interesting thread Mike, but like was said you can"t subtract hp for the parts your test car didn't have, thats impossible.If your test car dynoed low before the AFR heads and you picked up 84 rwhp thats a good increase although your total may be lower than the 480 or whatever AFR posted on their test car.If you had the exact same mods then you could compare to the AFR car with some expectation of the same (or close) 480rwhp.Was the cam degreed in or just installed however it landed?I hope you find more hp but a 84 rwhp increase is not bad!

jermstyle

Well... my car puts down 334 with the mods in my cig. Add this setup and it puts me at 418. He said 420 would have been nice, so something sounds a little off.

Just a guess, but with the mods listed... It should be in the 430 range with a good tune.

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

The clutch is fine, no slip at all. As I said before, I understand that you can't say "X amount of HP for this mod" and such, just trying to get a picture of what we are looking at. I also mentioned that the 84RWHP and 50RWT gains are pretty darn good with just adding head, cam, underdrive pulley and tuning. From a gain standpoint, it did very well.

As jermstyle pointed out, we should have been at 330ishRWHP and 345ishRWT as a starting point with the lid, headers, high flow cats otherwise stock '02 SS M6. We were quite a bit under that. If you add the 84RWHP & 50RWT to these numbers it would be 414RWHP and 395RWT. Close, but still low. We are under that by a bunch.

Do I or the customer expect 480RWHP? No, we are realistic. He thought we would be in the 440-450 area after talking to AFR and I thought 420-435 was a legitimate goal and would have deemed it okay. Since we did not do the install, the customer handled that, I would say the cam was put in dot-to-dot. Going by the gains and the RPM peak moving up 1000RPM, I would guess the cam is close.

Thanks for all the input, but I am still just looking for other independent dynos so I have something to compare this car to. I again apologize for not giving the exact numbers, but I am sure some can make an educated guess with the info I have given here. In the end I will post the numbers when the time is right. I want to see what the customer comes up with after talking with AFR also. Later and thanks.

Mike Norris

Damian

iTrader: (89)

Not looking so good from AFR.....

My AFR LT1 heads were horrible, I swapped them out for GTP's.

dand35th

I really never thought anyone would see more than 10-15 rwhp more than a set of excellent stage 2's anyway.. so.. that about sounds right.

Beast96Z

iTrader: (21)

I never really bought into the gimik in the first place. It's always best to wait for independent results before diving head first into a expensive, non real world tested item like these. Shop cars are always going to be high. As far as individual results, Pdd's were the only ones I have seen posted.

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Hey Guys,

Please let me make this very clear. The gains of 84RWHP and 50RWT are very respectable and that should give AFR a boost instead of a smack in the mouth. The point here is to get some other before and after dynos to see what other independent shops have gained, started at and finished up at. This car may just be a low end car since she started out low.

I have had in the past a 2002 Z28 stock internalled engine with all the bolt-ons, OR pipes and through a Magnaflow exhaust put down 360RWHP and 350RWT. Add this combo to that and she would be at "possibly" 440RWHP and 400RWT. Potentially very respectable.

This is not to become an "AFR sucks" party or an "I told you so" thread, just an information gathering post. If there are actually any issues I am sure AFR will take care of them and they will be handled with the folks out there.

Just trying to get this under control before we get to 3 or 4 pages. Thanks and please post any before and after info on any other cars.

Mike Norris

masterdill

iTrader: (2)

I would like to say "I told you so", but I won't. Wait, I just did.

I was a disbeliever since day 1, for good reason.

pdd

iTrader: (3)

i made 435rwhp and 405rwtq at 66cc. i was expecting 450+rwhp at that cc