Generation IV Internal Engine - LS2 Intake & TPIS 90 vs. TPIS Mod. Intake & Oval




TPiS
09-17-2004, 09:02 AM
Just something to chew on..still need to try it on other combinations obviously. This is a test done on a 98 C5 auto. Modifications are Blackwing, TPIS headers, TPIS Muffler system, 1.85 Rockers, and heads milled .010, and programming. Stock cam & no porting.


LS2 Intake & TPIS 90 MM TB

-393 RWHP @ 6200
-373 RWTQ @5100

-257-354 RWTQ 2900-3900 RPM
-356-371 RWTQ 4000-5000 RPM
-373-338 RWTQ 5100-6100 RPM


TPIS LS6 Intake & TPIS Oval TB

-402 RWHP @ 6000 RPM
-393 RWTQ @ 4800 RPM

-330-369 RWTQ 2900-3900 RPM
-375-387 RWTQ 4000-5000 RPM
-387-343 RWTQ 5100-6100 RPM


Both combinations were programmed for best power etc....

As you can see the LS2 Intake doesn't offer any power gains on this engine combination over the TPIS LS6 Intake and Oval Throttle Body (less throttle area). You'll notice there are some fairly large diffences in torque everywhere. I would assume most people are wanting to try this intake on the larger engines and we are too. Just some preliminary info until we get more cominations in the works. For the F-Body guys, our 90 MM TB could be run with the LS2 intake if it proves to be a worthwhile investment.


Jim Hall
TPIS
952-448-6021


BLKWS6
09-17-2004, 09:17 AM
:eek2: Thats some pretty stout numbers for a stock h/c bolt on A4.

PM sent....:)

2MCHPWR
09-17-2004, 12:17 PM
good info. but did you dyno with stock LS6 intake and normal ported t-body?
can you list the prices for all those parts you mentioned?
seems like the TPIS LS6 Intake & TPIS Oval TB would be great for any H/C car; do you have any dyno's of that combo versus stock t-body/intake (LS6)?


C4VetteLS1
09-17-2004, 01:07 PM
Well thank you for the info. But i hope no one read this and thinks "LS2 isnt as good as a TPIS Ls6 because this dyno test says so"


First time I see a 346" heads/cam 450+ rwhp car swapped to an ls2 dyno results, ill pay alot of attention to those results, or a big cube setup.

Kinda like taking a stock motor and putting a tunnel ram intake with dual 4's on it..it just doesnt work..

TPiS
09-17-2004, 01:40 PM
Its just information.......thought some people might want to see it.




Jim Hall
TPIS
952-448-6021

Squintz Palladoris
09-17-2004, 02:33 PM
Thanks for the info! I too would like to see the difference on an Agressive H/C setup.

I am already in line for an ls2 intake. I did consider your intake as well.
With the problems Fast has had with their TB I will probably go with your 90mm.

It may be a month or so but I will post up track results in a month as long as I get the intake soon.

ls6 w ported TB vs ls2 w 90mm

Brad

Camaroholic
09-17-2004, 04:06 PM
Thanks for posting the results, Jim. :thumb: Like I mentioned in my email, I'll be talking to ya as soon as my LS2 intake comes in. That TPiS TB that Myron showed me at Indy was a very nice piece.

Cheers,

Andrew

JZ'sTA
09-17-2004, 04:07 PM
Cool comparision. I will use this as a comparision only and never quote those dyno numbers to anyone and say that your A4 should produce x amount of power based on what your car made.
Congs on being one of the only A4's to make 400+HP with stock heads and stock cam.
Thanks for the info and I am not trying to bash but have to call BS on the dyno numbers on this one.

SStolen
09-17-2004, 04:15 PM
So it is down 70rwtq at 2900 rpms? That sucks.

As far as you putting down 402rwhp on a stock heads/cam LS1 -AUTOMATIC? Bull-fucking-shit! No freaking way. Are we comparing SAE numbers to uncorrected numbers?

speedo
09-17-2004, 04:41 PM
Got me a TPIS oval and intake... looks stout.. I have pics but they are to big to put on here send me a PM if you want some of mine on my car. I live about 20 miles from TPIS.... I have no numbers to put on here but going racing right now.... 1/8 mile..

Stupid 273 gears :bang:

Beast96Z
09-17-2004, 05:56 PM
I thought it was already showed that the LS2 intake didn't flow any more port for port to the LS6. I'm not surprised that the car didn't gain. With all the people wanting to swap to this intake, I would assume the only gains will be from the larger TB, not the intake. Although it is a cheaper way to get a 90mm to mate up to you car.:)

triumphman
09-17-2004, 06:10 PM
Just thought i would add that this test was not done by tpis. it was done by pro auto tech in Fla.the info was sent to tpis for our own knowlege .we just thought we would share it.

DrkPhx
09-17-2004, 09:52 PM
Got me a TPIS oval and intake... looks stout.. I have pics but they are to big to put on here send me a PM if you want some of mine on my car. I live about 20 miles from TPIS.... I have no numbers to put on here but going racing right now.... 1/8 mile..

Stupid 273 gears :bang:
Post your times. Curious to see what you run. I have a similar setup (w/o Nitrious) and would like to see your numbers. I'm going to Cedar Falls Raceway tomorrow.

NLang
09-18-2004, 12:41 AM
I have personally opened up all three LS-1, LS-6, and LS-2 intakes for comparrison and modifications. I have to say, I think someone's pumpin their outhouse into your ears...The only step down GM took with the LS-2 intake is their friction welding(90% sure it's friction welding) process of assembling it. The floor is even lower than the LS-6's, the runner inlet ports are a lot smoother, AND it has a full 90mm opening. All you guys do is chop off the factory inlet and replace it with a larger, yet still smaller the the LS-2 inlet.
I'm not trying to start a shit fight here. I haven't before seen dyno numbers comparing TPIS to anything, I'm just trying to make some sense out of those figures. Think about it...9rwhp, 20rwtq, and holding a minimum of 5rwtq through the entire band. All with a (though slightly)lesser intake, and a smaller throttle body. Think!!! :bang:

NLang
09-18-2004, 01:07 AM
Oh, and also...I too agree on the whole 402rwhp LS-1 A4 situation. I've seen a lot of 360's and a couple low 380's, but NEVER heard of an A4 LS-1 even near 400 with just bolt-ons. What would .010" off of a set of heads get you, 2hp max?

2MCHPWR
09-18-2004, 06:21 AM
aren't the 1.85 rockers going to have a similar effect than swapping cams?

xfactor_pitbulls
09-18-2004, 11:42 AM
aren't the 1.85 rockers going to have a similar effect than swapping cams?

Thats what I was thinking too. The heads are milled as well. Sounds pretty high, but possible.

Brandon

NLang
09-18-2004, 12:09 PM
The rockers provide a little lift, and maybe act as another 2* of duration. Definitely not like switching cams.
Also, rule of thumb(not 100% accurate) is .006" mill is 1cc of chamber volume. So he's at most around 65cc's in the chambers instead of 66.67. That's what, 10.2-10.3:1? A tenth or two of a point of compression would not yield much of anything. 2hp maybe?

C4VetteLS1
09-18-2004, 01:17 PM
I think im going say "thanks for the info TPIS" but none of the results make any sense...

first theres no way a stock camm'ed non z06 c5 will make 402 to the tire on stock heads/cam with that setup....and if it does, sell it for LOTS of money cause it can run with heads/cam cars...

proautoman
09-20-2004, 07:09 PM
Just something to chew on..still need to try it on other combinations obviously. This is a test done on a 98 C5 auto. Modifications are Blackwing, TPIS headers, TPIS Muffler system, 1.85 Rockers, and heads milled .010, and programming. Stock cam & no porting.


LS2 Intake & TPIS 90 MM TB

-393 RWHP @ 6200
-373 RWTQ @5100

-257-354 RWTQ 2900-3900 RPM
-356-371 RWTQ 4000-5000 RPM
-373-338 RWTQ 5100-6100 RPM


TPIS LS6 Intake & TPIS Oval TB

-402 RWHP @ 6000 RPM
-393 RWTQ @ 4800 RPM

-330-369 RWTQ 2900-3900 RPM
-375-387 RWTQ 4000-5000 RPM
-387-343 RWTQ 5100-6100 RPM


Both combinations were programmed for best power etc....

As you can see the LS2 Intake doesn't offer any power gains on this engine combination over the TPIS LS6 Intake and Oval Throttle Body (less throttle area). You'll notice there are some fairly large diffences in torque everywhere. I would assume most people are wanting to try this intake on the larger engines and we are too. Just some preliminary info until we get more cominations in the works. For the F-Body guys, our 90 MM TB could be run with the LS2 intake if it proves to be a worthwhile investment.


Jim Hall
TPIS
952-448-6021

We did the testing in our shop in Fort Myers Fl. We have done testing for TPIS here is Florida for years!
The vehicle was a 1998 C5 Automatic This is my personnal C5 that has
countless hours of tuning and testing with the following Mods:
Haltech Trap (feeding Tiger Shark Bumper)
TPIS 90 MM Wide Oval
Ls6 Intake (Extrude Honed)
TPIS Wide Oval Nose Port Matched
Stock Heads milled to yeild 11.3 :1
Z06 Sodium Valves and Z06 Springs (No Port Work)
SLP 1.85 Rockers (Stock 98 CAm)
Comp 7.350 Pushrods
Brisk Spark Plugs
TPIS Wires
TPIS Headers
Dr. Gas X-Pipe (NO CATs)
TPIS Rear Exhaust
Many Many Hours of tuning!
Best Dyno HP 417 STD Correction 399 TQ
Day of testing the Ls2 Intake 403.5 HP STD 393.15 TQ at peak Baseline
392HP STD 371 tq std with LS2 at peak
The increased plenum volume of the LS2 reduced the natural ram air effect
that occurs around 4500 RPM! I would expect it to make HP gains on
Big flowing head and cam and large Cubes I would not expect a torque
increase in this rpm area! The fast intake is very similar
Hope this helps any confusion!

Mike K.
09-20-2004, 07:26 PM
damn interesting test, can you guys throw on a fast 90 mm intake/TPIS TB and see how it does? I bet the ls2 does better on a bigger cubed engine, after all the ls2 does have a decent bore size stock.

NLang
09-20-2004, 09:43 PM
"Stock Heads milled to yeild 11.3 :1"
Well, there's around 15hp in compression alone. What happened to the "heads milled .010"??? That's far more than .010"...

I guess there are 101 different ways to pinch off all the extra ponies on a dyno just for numbers sake. Anyone read the "Dyno Tricks" thread? I can only hope none were used for such a comparisson. It just wouldn't be right... :disgust:

proautoman
09-21-2004, 07:50 AM
"Stock Heads milled to yeild 11.3 :1"
Well, there's around 15hp in compression alone. What happened to the "heads milled .010"??? That's far more than .010"...

I guess there are 101 different ways to pinch off all the extra ponies on a dyno just for numbers sake. Anyone read the "Dyno Tricks" thread? I can only hope none were used for such a comparisson. It just wouldn't be right... :disgust:

I spent 6 hours fabricating the injectors and fuel rail to fit. Money
spent on the intake, gaskets. 90mm throttle body. I was hoping for
a nice gain myself. If you want to try it its on e-bay for sale!

NLang
09-21-2004, 02:04 PM
I spent 6 hours fabricating the injectors and fuel rail to fit. Money
spent on the intake, gaskets. 90mm throttle body. I was hoping for
a nice gain myself. If you want to try it its on e-bay for sale!
Already ahead of you...I think I was the second fella to get his hands on one before they were even available :secret2: I sure paid for that though...

No fabbing needed for the injector rail. All you needed was a few .300" shims to pick it up enough, and thicker O-rings for the injectors to fit in the larger injector bosses. Other than that, some wire to extend the plug for the MAP sensor to the front where it was relocated. Though I fabbed my own, the mount for the throttle shaft which are not molded into these, can be chopped off of ones used original LS-1 intake and epoxied to the LS-2. Throttle bodies for these aren't cheap, I know...I went with a 90mm Accufab stang 'Race' unit and just fabbed it. It was $240 compared to $480-500.

Anyway, this is off subject...Proceed...

LOnSLO
09-21-2004, 02:27 PM
Already ahead of you...I think I was the second fella to get his hands on one before they were even available :secret2: I sure paid for that though...

No fabbing needed for the injector rail. All you needed was a few .300" shims to pick it up enough, and thicker O-rings for the injectors to fit in the larger injector bosses. Other than that, some wire to extend the plug for the MAP sensor to the front where it was relocated. Though I fabbed my own, the mount for the throttle shaft which are not molded into these, can be chopped off of ones used original LS-1 intake and epoxied to the LS-2. Throttle bodies for these aren't cheap, I know...I went with a 90mm Accufab stang 'Race' unit and just fabbed it. It was $240 compared to $480-500.

Anyway, this is off subject...Proceed...
:huh: My stock fuel rails were not even close to mounting up, even with shims under the mounting tabs. The injectors won't seal on the top if you do this.

NLang
09-21-2004, 02:31 PM
:huh: My stock fuel rails were not even close to mounting up, even with shims under the mounting tabs. The injectors won't seal on the top if you do this.
Mine mounted up and sealed great. I find it hard to believe that any two of either rails or intakes would be any different from one another. I'm certainly not calling anyone a lier, but I couldn't explain the difference.

BLKWS6
09-21-2004, 02:32 PM
Mine werent close either? :huh:

BLKWS6
09-21-2004, 02:35 PM
Mine mounted up and sealed great. I find it hard to believe that any two of either rails or intakes would be any different from one another. I'm certainly not calling anyone a lier, but I couldn't explain the difference.
When set in...the injectors seemed to be off the injector seat by about a 1/8th-1/4"?

NLang
09-21-2004, 02:44 PM
That's pretty durn far off I would say...Try bending the mounts on the rail up approx. .300" and then flush to to the intake mounting points. You'll probably have to slot the mounting holes a tad with a drill, but this would definitely be another way of doing it. I don't imagine it would take long to do either.

I still can't figure out why everything of mine mated and sealed with ease, and you guys are having trouble with clearances. I quadruple checked everything to ensure fitment and seal...Unexplainable I guess...

CHRISPY
09-21-2004, 02:53 PM
Just something to chew on..still need to try it on other combinations obviously. This is a test done on a 98 C5 auto. Modifications are Blackwing, TPIS headers, TPIS Muffler system, 1.85 Rockers, and heads milled .010, and programming. Stock cam & no porting.


LS2 Intake & TPIS 90 MM TB

-393 RWHP @ 6200
-373 RWTQ @5100

-257-354 RWTQ 2900-3900 RPM
-356-371 RWTQ 4000-5000 RPM
-373-338 RWTQ 5100-6100 RPM


TPIS LS6 Intake & TPIS Oval TB

-402 RWHP @ 6000 RPM
-393 RWTQ @ 4800 RPM

-330-369 RWTQ 2900-3900 RPM
-375-387 RWTQ 4000-5000 RPM
-387-343 RWTQ 5100-6100 RPM


Both combinations were programmed for best power etc....

As you can see the LS2 Intake doesn't offer any power gains on this engine combination over the TPIS LS6 Intake and Oval Throttle Body (less throttle area). You'll notice there are some fairly large diffences in torque everywhere. I would assume most people are wanting to try this intake on the larger engines and we are too. Just some preliminary info until we get more cominations in the works. For the F-Body guys, our 90 MM TB could be run with the LS2 intake if it proves to be a worthwhile investment.


Jim Hall
TPIS
952-448-6021
Jim,

thanks for posting this :)

I have looked for pricing info on your site for the modified LS6 with TPIS throttle body and couldnt find it.

Could you post pricing information?

Also do you port match the intake runners as well? (if someone was to send you port volume info?)

:cheers:

BLKWS6
09-21-2004, 03:10 PM
That's pretty durn far off I would say...Try bending the mounts on the rail up approx. .300" and then flush to to the intake mounting points. You'll probably have to slot the mounting holes a tad with a drill, but this would definitely be another way of doing it. I don't imagine it would take long to do either.

I still can't figure out why everything of mine mated and sealed with ease, and you guys are having trouble with clearances. I quadruple checked everything to ensure fitment and seal...Unexplainable I guess...
Well the crossover tube is what is killing it. But also, it just doesnt seem right or good to pull the injector that far out of the hole. Ive got the mounting tabs all lined up. no prob there. Just that freakin tube.

Patrick G
11-24-2004, 09:17 AM
Hey TPiS, any updates? Have you done any before/after tests between an LS6 intake with a ported stock TB and the LS6 intake with TPiS Oval TB?

JS
11-24-2004, 10:55 AM
What about testing your Oval against an LSX...

TPiS
11-24-2004, 12:18 PM
Hey TPiS, any updates? Have you done any before/after tests between an LS6 intake with a ported stock TB and the LS6 intake with TPiS Oval TB?

we have done that test on 346's all the way to 434's

on an 346 you will see about 5 to 9 hp with a ported tb over a stock tb.
the oval over a ported tb on a stock head and cam you will see an additional 10hp for a total gain of around 18 although i have gotten as much as 22 hp

there is no loss of low end.

myron

TPiS
11-24-2004, 12:27 PM
What about testing your Oval against an LSX...


on 346's through modest cammed 383's the TPIS oval will out perform the fast intake in torque production and match the hp number. the torque number in the lower rpm range will be about 20 lb ft. larger than the LSX.

if you put a larger cam in the 383 all the way up to the large cid combinations the LSX is a better choice. we make the 90 mm throttles that many tuners are using.

the throttle response of the oval is hard to describe, my ZO-6 is an all bore 383 with our oval. people who have ridden and driven it swear that its a 434 cid.

myron c

Patrick G
11-24-2004, 12:35 PM
Great info. Glad to see you checking out the board Myron.

TPiS
11-24-2004, 12:51 PM
Great info. Glad to see you checking out the board Myron.


we are trying to be informative, not easy to do with some of the self appointed critics. i have been doing this for over 40 years. It is our policy to understate the gains our products produce. I noticed that there was a reponse to a post that jimmy put up. that said bullshit to some dyno numbers.

you don't stay in business this long overstateing performance

This year we won our second ASA championship with country joe racing.
i did the tuning.

we also won the
SCCA T2 championship with TEAM Salad giving Cadillac it's first win in a stock class. the year before the same team with a pontiac won the T2 championship. this was a full engine program.

myron c.

Squintz Palladoris
11-24-2004, 01:11 PM
Myron,

Have you read my results with the LS2 Intake?
Here is a link. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241304

With the info you just posted I am leaning towards sending you an LS6 intake to modify and selling my TPIS 90 to buy the Oval TB. I was planning on doing some tests with a 90mm LSX intake but that will be a few weeks before I can get it from my friend to try it out. Obviously you have already done this.

Do you have a Bellows for an F body to work with the oval TB?
What is the turn around time for the Intake?

Thanks!
Brad

TPiS
11-24-2004, 02:20 PM
Myron,

Have you read my results with the LS2 Intake?
Here is a link. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241304

With the info you just posted I am leaning towards sending you an LS6 intake to modify and selling my TPIS 90 to buy the Oval TB. I was planning on doing some tests with a 90mm LSX intake but that will be a few weeks before I can get it from my friend to try it out. Obviously you have already done this.

Do you have a Bellows for an F body to work with the oval TB?
What is the turn around time for the Intake?

Thanks!
Brad


your stock bellows will fit the TPIS oval. We can turn the intake in two days

mc

Squintz Palladoris
11-24-2004, 02:27 PM
Thanks Myron!

Brad

speedo
11-24-2004, 04:48 PM
Like I mentioned before in this post I have an LS6 modified intake and oval TB and I don't have a dyno number to post yet, but I can attest to the qualilty and customer service of TPIS. TPIS told me the same thing on a head and cam car that the LSX would flow to much for a stock cubed motor. We had problems with the voltage at the TPS sensor with the new TB but it was just the cruise cable not adjusted right that was pulling back on the TB sending it out of wack. We adjusted the cruise cable and it was good to go. We called TPIS and the customer service was great. They even called back the next day to see if it was working right.


I have pics of my setup if anyone wants them just send me a pm. They are to big to post.

JZ'sTA
11-24-2004, 04:56 PM
I believe the BS statement was because the info posted was incorrect.
The info said it was a .010 mill when it was really a .050 mill.
That made a huge difference in compression.
No one has a car that is a A4 with stock H/C making 400+++ HP like the results show.
Also one other thing we need to realize is the dyno being used.

I live in Ft. Myers which is where the testing was done.
THE DYNO IS A LAND AND SEE DYNO not a dynojet which is probally where the big difference is.

JS
11-24-2004, 05:38 PM
Myron,something doesnt add up...Your buddies at Cartek have tested your OVAL/LS6 intake on thier S2 and S3 X setups.Julio,one of the best tuners in the country reported MORE RWHP/RWTQ running a LSX/90 over your Oval/LS6.

Now your contradicting Carteks findings?
So who do u believe,I say its impossible to tell as some types of combo's will do well w/a TPiS and some will do well with the LSX.

There IMO is no clear winner when it comes to these intakes but IMO I believe the LSX/90 will outgun your glued up modded LS6 and Oval TB.

Sorry but this is just my opinion.

JZ'sTA
11-24-2004, 08:42 PM
Oponions are like ass hole, we all have one.

With that being said I must agree with the oponion above.
It just makes since.

Patrick G
11-24-2004, 10:35 PM
JS and JZ,

Myron already stated how the LS6 w/oval TB stacked up against the LSX on the previous page: on 346's through modest cammed 383's the TPIS oval will out perform the fast intake in torque production and match the hp number. the torque number in the lower rpm range will be about 20 lb ft. larger than the LSX.

if you put a larger cam in the 383 all the way up to the large cid combinations the LSX is a better choice. we make the 90 mm throttles that many tuners are using.

the throttle response of the oval is hard to describe, my ZO-6 is an all bore 383 with our oval. people who have ridden and driven it swear that its a 434 cid.

myron c

strokedls1
11-24-2004, 11:11 PM
I just ordered a ls2 intake and tpis 90mm tb for my 422ci. I will post the findings when I put it on with how it work on a bigger motor.

cablebandit
11-25-2004, 06:50 AM
tpis have any prices?

Patrick G
11-25-2004, 07:14 AM
tpis have any prices?
check out their website:
www.tpis.com
Go to page 126 and 127 of their catalog (or punch in key word "oval" on the search button).
Throttle Body for F-bodies: $550 with exchange
Modified LS6 intake: $425 with exchange

JS
11-25-2004, 12:09 PM
Pat,The LSX has been tested and picked up power over the oval tb and reworked LS6 intake.I never said it didnt work as I've seen an increase of power over a LS6/PTB.

LG/Cartek and a few others has tested it,they found the LSX/90 slightly better.If your on a budget then sure the TPiS is a very good option as it does work very well,but if your looking for every last bit of power the LSX/90 IMO is the best.

To each is own,this is just my opinion.
U really cant go wrong with either option.

JZ'sTA
11-26-2004, 09:08 PM
I believe there are a number of very good setup's, just feel the fast is the best on highly modded cars.
On a car with stock heads and cam then I wont argue the Fast because I thing a number of setup's will make the same power.

Another_User
11-26-2004, 09:56 PM
Oponions are like ass hole, we all have one.
...and they all stink.