View Full Version : 2005 Mustang Sales report.... Sticker too much to pay?


Shinkaze
11-21-2004, 12:16 PM
Despite strong demand, Mustang buyers won't pay over sticker

Article from Autoweek: http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101223

Now I could point to half a dozen reasons why I think this is the case, but all that aside this does not bode well for the "Pony car/Muscle car" market. The GTO and CTS-V aren't exactly flying out of the showroom either, so I have to wonder if a greater problem with the market is to blame. What's more I have to wonder what lower than expected demand for the CTS-V, GTO, and new Mustang are going to do to the future Camaro and next gen GTO?


Myself personally? I think when you have cars like the G35, Acura TL and Chrysler 300C that are all quality automobiles with strong performance (we sort of live in an 11 Sec fantasy world at LS1Tech, the rest of the world considers 14 seconds to be "really fast"), it marginalizes the need to sacrifice practicality, quality, features, etc to have a car that runs a half second quicker in the Qtr mile. Thoughts? Anyone else agree?

Then there are those that "ARE" looking for the super fast cars, and I think many of those are going to the EVO and WRX STi. I've seen a ton of those on the road, and it's impossible to argue that they aren't modern muscle cars since they run as fast as a stock LS1 or Mustang Cobra in the Qtr mile, and destroy us in the twisties, and I ahve to admit they're easy as hell to modify.

I'm begining to wonder if the only market left for a true Mustang, Camaro, GTO is going to be those that just "want" a car like that, while the masses who are looking for great performance will gravitate towards the extremes of EVO/STi on one end and the 300C, TL & G35 on the other.

I sort of see the GTO and Mustang as percipitating into the middle and the market there doesn't seam to be as strong. All that said it will be interesting to see what happens when Pontiac offers the first affordable 400hp motor to the masses with the GTO. (Yes I know the Cobra makes that sort of power, but it was never marketed at an even 400, I think that's fairly big in the minds of the consumer).

-Adam

NOSjohn
11-21-2004, 12:22 PM
My friend works for a local Fuuuuuuuuurd dealer. They got in 4 Mud-stain GT's...all sold within 1 day at sticker.

I'm not sure what your point is...you shift from your subject with regard to customers paying over sticker, then talk about imports and then back to american made cars. :confused:

Shinkaze
11-21-2004, 12:32 PM
My friend works for a local Fuuuuuuuuurd dealer. They got in 4 Mud-stain GT's...all sold within 1 day at sticker.

I'm not sure what your point is...you shift from your subject with regard to customers paying over sticker, then talk about imports and then back to american made cars. :confused:Well the Autoweek article actually theorizes that the reason the Mustang is not debuting to the same deamnd as the 350Z and similar is because Ford has set a precedent of strong discounts on their car lines, so the Ford consumer walks into a dealership expecting a deal. Anyhow give the article a read.

While I personally do not like the new Mustang GT that much, I really want to see it sell like gang busters so that GM sees a strong market for the Camaro. GM understands (and has said as much numerous times) that the "Pony Car" market is only so big and that adding models only decreases the size of the slices of the pie rather than making the pie itself any larger.

-Adam

NOSjohn
11-21-2004, 12:44 PM
Ah, now I see. Autoweek is a joke. They can only theorize because they aren't out and around visually grasping who and what is selling. I find that an issue with some large magazines. Their writers exploit too much of their own theory and/or opinion, then people read it and it's supposed to be gospel.

From what I've seen, and I'm not a Furd advocate, they are selling like hot-cakes. The local dealer had to bring in a red one from a bigger dealership in PA, due to them (the local dealership) not being able to keep them in stock.

Dom
11-21-2004, 01:31 PM
The dealers are responsible for slow GTO sales. They're overpriced to begin with then dealers sold them for way over sticker. Reminds me when they were selling SSs for $33K.

GAME OVER
11-21-2004, 03:13 PM
The dealers are responsible for slow GTO sales. They're overpriced to begin with then dealers sold them for way over sticker. Reminds me when they were selling SSs for $33K.
Yea, i remember when i saw ws6's @ the dealership for 36,000

TriShield
11-21-2004, 06:41 PM
Coupes are not strong sellers in North America, that's why the new Dodge Charger has four doors (and it also comes with a standard V6). The only exception to the rule has been the Mustang, otherwise people here simply don't buy coupes in droves.

I wouldn't pay sticker for just about any new, fairly mainstream car either, it's almost never worth it. If GM sold the Ute SS or Ford sold the Falcon XR6T here then I may be persuaded...

Shinkaze
11-21-2004, 07:36 PM
No, coupe sales are actually quite strong (G35, 350Z, 330/325Ci, etc), and I think you all are missing the point of the article, because Ford has set such a precedent of "Don't pay sticker" on all their other lines, people are expecting the same from teh rest of the brand as well. I'm sure Mustang sales are going to be high volume as well, but you'll notice the Autoweek article is pointing to how cars like the PT Cruiser and 350Z were able to maintain sticker for a long period of time, while the Mustang is already being sold at discount. This doesn't bode well for the long haul of that car. (Which has only been out for maybe two months?) If memory serves two months after the GTO hit showrooms, Pontiac dealers were still asking over sticker for those cars, a year later and we're seeing astoundingly deep discounts on the GTO. If the 2005 Mustang (A banner model, and the first clean sheet design sinc ethe Carter administration) is starting off discounted, then the price was too high to begin with.

JBsZ06
11-21-2004, 08:55 PM
Ford should do what the chrysler group has done with the 300C..

Raise the price of the car for a grand...then give a thousand dollar discount.

I like the mustang. 26 grand its a hell of a car.

IMHO

JackZ28
11-22-2004, 02:09 AM
Pretty soon, you'll be paying $50,000 for a new Mustang GT. :eyes:

Dom
11-22-2004, 02:41 AM
I wonder if this has anything to do with the winter coming and the market in general for sports cars sucks right now. It's pretty bad for all cars, but even more so for RWD sports coupes.

Shinkaze
11-22-2004, 10:42 AM
I wonder if this has anything to do with the winter coming and the market in general for sports cars sucks right now. It's pretty bad for all cars, but even more so for RWD sports coupes.Well my theory is still the same. If you want a performance car in that price range you'll just step up to an EVO or STi. If you want Luxury you'll get a 300C.

Keep in mind too that

EVO = Mercedes/Chrysler
STi = GM

So we're not totally off the table, however I'm worried about the sluggish GTO/2005 Mustang GT sales being an indicator for how GM will approach the next gen Camaro. Many have said the Camaro was was behind the Mutang in sales because it was too performance focused, whereas the Mustang was easier to live with. I have to admit my M3 is almost an identical foot print lay out to a SN95 Mustang, and I'm finding it much easier to live with than my Firebird. (getting in and out, having a real trunk, etc).

I think the GTO is going down the right path, but at too high of a price point, I might be willing to give up some of the GTo's straight line performance for the Luxury/Handling of a G35 or Luxury/practicality of a 300C or Acura TL. If the GTO is going to be a sales success I think it really needs more amenities (and a service department on par with Infiniti) I'm sure that the 2007 GTO is going to be a home run and will address many of my own complaints about the car, but I'm guess what I'm saying is that in order to be a smashing success it needs to beat the competition in Performance and Luxury.

The Mustang OTOH is lower end, but it really isn't that remarkable in either performance or luxury and to that end I think there are better deals out there.

Maybe the new Cobra will just be a smoking bad-ass (fingers crossed).

-Adam, rambling incoherent fool

MSI
11-22-2004, 11:06 AM
No, coupe sales are actually quite strong (G35, 350Z, 330/325Ci, etc), and I think you all are missing the point of the article, because Ford has set such a precedent of "Don't pay sticker" on all their other lines, people are expecting the same from teh rest of the brand as well. I'm sure Mustang sales are going to be high volume as well, but you'll notice the Autoweek article is pointing to how cars like the PT Cruiser and 350Z were able to maintain sticker for a long period of time, while the Mustang is already being sold at discount. This doesn't bode well for the long haul of that car. (Which has only been out for maybe two months?) If memory serves two months after the GTO hit showrooms, Pontiac dealers were still asking over sticker for those cars, a year later and we're seeing astoundingly deep discounts on the GTO. If the 2005 Mustang (A banner model, and the first clean sheet design sinc ethe Carter administration) is starting off discounted, then the price was too high to begin with.

Mustang is already being sold at a discount??? :confused:
I've yet to see one priced sold below MSRP, and in fact most are still paying a 1k-3k markup. Every dealer my wife and I have talked to have no plans to drop below MSRP anytime soon. BTW, I live just north of Atlanta so if you see one priced below MSRP let me know and I'll probably buy it! :)

Shinkaze
11-22-2004, 11:19 AM
Mustang is already being sold at a discount??? :confused:
I've yet to see one priced sold below MSRP, and in fact most are still paying a 1k-3k markup. Every dealer my wife and I have talked to have no plans to drop below MSRP anytime soon. BTW, I live just north of Atlanta so if you see one priced below MSRP let me know and I'll probably buy it! :)Yea, you'll have to get away from Atlanta to get a deal on anything. Heck when I was looking at an M3, Global BMW is *STILL* charging over sticker for the car and it's been out since 2001! anyhow the Autoweek article said they're seeing the deals cropping up on Ebay (ebaymotors.com) and Autotrader (www.autotrader.com) where dealers are already listing the cars at discount.

-Adam

MSI
11-22-2004, 11:52 AM
Yea, you'll have to get away from Atlanta to get a deal on anything. Heck when I was looking at an M3, Global BMW is *STILL* charging over sticker for the car and it's been out since 2001! anyhow the Autoweek article said they're seeing the deals cropping up on Ebay (ebaymotors.com) and Autotrader (www.autotrader.com) where dealers are already listing the cars at discount.

-Adam

I found a couple of V6's discounted but nada on the GT. A couple have them listed at over 30k MSRP and then show THEIR price as 27,XXX and people think they're getting a deal but all the dealer does is jack up that MSRP with the "dealer added markup" and then take a little off that. Dealers are "sticking" people with a high price right now, but the laws of supply and demand rule. Once dealers get a good stock of Mustangs in I highly doubt they will still charge MSRP. I'm not too worried about the pony-car market, or Mustangs at least. They have a very strong core base (like myself) that have owned multiple Mustangs and will continue to do so. Sure, competition has taken some sales away and the price of gas doesn't help the V8 crowd but I think everything is still kosher. You mention some high(er) priced vehicles as competition. Evo's and STi's are not cheap by any stretch, and lets face it, the V6 sales is what keeps the Mustang around, and they can be had for less than 20k. Sure the GTs are high right now but I'm sure in a couple months 25k out the door won't be a problem.

Pro Stock John
11-22-2004, 12:29 PM
New style is just out, and folks will pay sticker just to have it. When dealers have a ton of them the prices will go down... Same as any car.

Folks will pay 20's for a sporty v8 with some kick, but not pay mid 30's for a car without navi, and other amenities.

JBsZ06
11-22-2004, 06:49 PM
c6 corvette coupe is already running 2500 to 3 grand discounts..

After the "new" wears off...

The mustangs will be discounted...

Next year when higher performance versions begin to hit the showrooms..

The GT's price will drop for sure.

IMHO

y2k_ta
11-22-2004, 07:25 PM
The Mustang will sell. Look how much positive press it got after the concept came out. Like the production version or not, the car still has quite a following. I personally don't think it'll have any trouble selling.

Shinkaze
11-22-2004, 08:56 PM
The Mustang will sell. Look how much positive press it got after the concept came out. Like the production version or not, the car still has quite a following. I personally don't think it'll have any trouble selling.Even the Thunderbird Sold, but after a year on the market it started to tank out. The discouraging thing is there are already discounts on this car a month out of the gate. Conversly the Thunderbird didn't have a simialr experience. I have little doubt Ford will sell 10x more Mustangs than Pontiac will sell GTO's, but the real tell will be if it sells as well as planned, because I'm sure GM is using this car as a market indicator for how well a Camaro will do. (And yes I do believe GM will bring the Camaro back, I'm just saying that how well the Mustang does this year will imapct how and in what direction GM takes the car).

-Adam

Gloveperson
11-23-2004, 12:01 AM
One reason why I think people aren't paying over sticker because the car would not be worth it for 30 grand.

My family has a 300c. We bought it for sticker (34,995). Reason being, it was priced correctly. As a dealer, you can only go above sticker if the car is worth more than that. If the car was 40 grand, a 5 series/E-class would have been worth looking at and people will get that over a brand new Chyrsler. This is still a Ford, for 30 grand you can get a BMW coupe and the masses will get that instead of a Ford.

Cars that can go for above sticker realistically are the ones that were priced too low from the factory.

I think GM has to really figure out what to do with the Camaro. I really do think it should be a low production car of strictly V-8's because I do not see people buying them if they didn't want exactly what it gives.

bruddah_man_matt
11-23-2004, 03:03 AM
Keep in mind too that

EVO = Mercedes/Chrysler
STi = GM

-Adam, rambling incoherent fool

Yah umm, that's some incoherent rambling going on right there with that statement. The fact that Daimler-Chrysler owns a good chunk of Mitsubishi Motors and GM 20% of Fuji Heavy Industries does NOT mean that the Evo and the Rex are products of either of these companies. Sorry but it sounds to me like you're just trying to pass these two awesome Japanese products off as American built which is totally whack. The Saab 9-2x is a Subaru, it's not the other way around (i.e. the Rex is a product of Saab) and IIRC the Evo is completely exclusive to Mitsubishi. I don't see any AWD 4G63 powered Chryslers or Dodges running around. You never would have called the Evo and WRX products of DC and GM if they weren't sold here now would you? And before someone brings it up, the Mazdaspeed 6 is NOT a Ford either. Ford is using the 6 platform and the 2.3L 4 banger which are Mazda designs in Ford/Lincoln/Mercury products, NOT the other way around.

The Evo and WRX have been around for years and each of these two 4 door bad asses is pure 4 banger Japanese sweetness born from experience through WRC. I didn't see anyone referring to the then JDM/Europe/Aussie only WRX and Evo as "American" 5 years ago. The WRX is about as much a GM product as the Aston Martin DB9 is a Ford. In fact the WRX is probably LESS of a GM product than the DB9 since Astons share some switchgear with their lesser Ford siblings.

MSI
11-23-2004, 11:54 AM
Even the Thunderbird Sold, but after a year on the market it started to tank out. The discouraging thing is there are already discounts on this car a month out of the gate. Conversly the Thunderbird didn't have a simialr experience. I have little doubt Ford will sell 10x more Mustangs than Pontiac will sell GTO's, but the real tell will be if it sells as well as planned, because I'm sure GM is using this car as a market indicator for how well a Camaro will do. (And yes I do believe GM will bring the Camaro back, I'm just saying that how well the Mustang does this year will imapct how and in what direction GM takes the car).

-Adam

With specific reference to the Autoweek article, the cars they compare the Mustang to sales-wise were either totally new cars or cars that had been gone for some time and came back. Demand probably would be higher for those cars. The Mustang has been around since 1964 and the market has been flooded with them since then. As much as I love Mustangs, there is no way I would pay OVER sticker for one. I don't understand why this seems to be hard for Autoweek to grasp and I think they are REALLY blowing that out of proportion because the "discounts" they talk about are like a few hundred dollars, and once again I've yet to see those discounts anywhere. Just look at how fast they are flying off of dealership lots. If one stays on a lot more than a day it is a surprise.

02ls1ss
11-23-2004, 12:29 PM
i think the mustang will out sell the gto. so what the gto has 50hp more then the mustang i think the gto look's like shit! i look at it like this when the gto first came out i didn't see that many on the road and i will go out on the lim with it and say the mustang look's better! and remember hp is not going to win the game just ask gm! :lol:

Shinkaze
11-23-2004, 12:34 PM
Yah umm, that's some incoherent rambling going on right there with that statement. The fact that Daimler-Chrysler owns a good chunk of Mitsubishi Motors and GM 20% of Fuji Heavy Industries does NOT mean that the Evo and the Rex are products of either of these companies. GM is a Majority Shared holder of Subaru. That is, while they do not own 50.01% they are the largest single shared holder and as such the board of directors is largely their's to control. That said GM wisely does not want to associate Subaru with their domestic lines, because it's the fact Subaru *is* Japanese and not "American" that they can be marketed as an import. To many consumers *this is important*. Many import buyers "would never consider American or hold an Import product in higher regard" (to quote the Detroit Auto news), and GM as a wise owner disasociates it's brand as such.

Sorry but it sounds to me like you're just trying to pass these two awesome Japanese products off as American built which is totally whack. I agree it would be if I was, but that is not my intention. No, I was pointing out that GM as an international company based in America does own a performance offering in one of their international subsidiares/partners that fits the need that I mentioned.

The Saab 9-2x is a Subaru, it's not the other way around (i.e. the Rex is a product of Saab) and IIRC the Evo is completely exclusive to Mitsubishi. I don't see any AWD 4G63 powered Chryslers or Dodges running around. You never would have called the Evo and WRX products of DC and GM if they weren't sold here now would you? GM doesn't want you to think of Subaru as a GM product no more than Ford wants you to think of Aston Martin as a Ford product. In the last 15 years GM has *FINALLY* come to understand the improtance of Brands and keeping Brands strong.

And before someone brings it up, the Mazdaspeed 6 is NOT a Ford either. Ford is using the 6 platform and the 2.3L 4 banger which are Mazda designs in Ford/Lincoln/Mercury products, NOT the other way around. Mazda is a wholley owned Ford Subsidiary just as Ford Cars, Lincoln and Mercury are.

The Evo and WRX have been around for years and each of these two 4 door bad asses is pure 4 banger Japanese sweetness born from experience through WRC. I didn't see anyone referring to the then JDM/Europe/Aussie only WRX and Evo as "American" 5 years ago. That's like saying that Jeep isn't a Daimler Chrysler, it's actually an American Motors car because it was that first.

Sure the WRC cars were designed by Japanese Engineers in Japanese companies that just happen to be largely owned by American Companies.

Take it to another level, Matsushita Panasonic is an American Company that happens to be 100% owned by Panasonic Corporation. Does that make Matsushita Panasonic an American Company or a Japanese Company? Neither it makes Matsushita an American Subsidiary of an International Conglomerate based in Japan. If that makes Matsushita a Japanese company, then that makes Mazda an American company.

-Adam

y2k_ta
11-23-2004, 07:12 PM
I'm going to need to further my education in order to keep up :)

baddogz28
11-26-2004, 06:41 PM
We are selling them for sticker like hot cakes. I ordered one for a customer a couple weeks ago, and we have 7 or so other orders in the ordering bank right now.

We are ordering them like crazy because most of the other dealers in the area are selling in stock units for $2k to $7k over sticker... Here's one:

http://luxurymotors.com/inventory_detailed.php?id=C-PERRY2&nhs=0&make=FORD&model=MUSTANG&ext_color=RED&stockno=&eyear=2005&syear=2004&eprice=&sprice=&keywords=&location=&type=&ob=&desc=

Ford has discounted the shit out of everything for the last few years so people expect a discount...

One dude was like "I'll never pay sticker for a Mustang."

I told him, "No problem, I can sell you a Taurus or a Focus for invoice- sound good?"

He didn't think it was as funny as I did... Too bad. :jest:

Dom
11-26-2004, 07:37 PM
i think the mustang will out sell the gto. so what the gto has 50hp more then the mustang i think the gto look's like shit! i look at it like this when the gto first came out i didn't see that many on the road and i will go out on the lim with it and say the mustang look's better! and remember hp is not going to win the game just ask gm! :lol:

That will be pretty easy to do since GTO is limited to about 18,000 a year and mustang is making over 150,000 a year.

I just read recently in Automotive News that GTO's production is being cut by 30% due to poor sales.

Here is a funny part.

Dealers complain that the sticker price is too high.

So if they thought it was too high why did they try to sell it for way over sticker? What a bunch of gready dumbasses those dealers are. :bang:

I'm really looking forward to when the GTO switches to the Zeta platform in 07 or 08. Hopefully, Chevy will have something cheaper based on the same platform.

baddogz28
11-27-2004, 11:48 AM
Some dealers are greedy and don't care about repeat business- mine does.

The basic principles of supply and demand dictate that kind of pricing. A car is worth what someone is willing to pay. You wanna have it before anyone else? You are gonna pay for that luxury. :nod:

davered00ss
11-27-2004, 04:53 PM
The car is still an under achiever. 266 rwhp and 14.19 in the 1/4 :9 and the retro gagues suck.

baddogz28
11-27-2004, 07:16 PM
Where else you gonna get 266 rwhp for $25k? Btw, 0-60 in 5.2 and 13.9 stock ain't too bad.

The car is still an under achiever. 266 rwhp and 14.19 in the 1/4 :9

That's like me saying that your car is an under achiever because mine is just as fast without headers or tuning, with stock TB and my power-robbing Lingenfelter intake. I'll trade my manifolds for your headers if you want, my manifolds are HI-PO! :lol: Just kidding. :)

and the retro gagues suck.

Have you seen them in person?