Solid Roller vs. Hydraulic
01-23-2005, 11:49 AM
#1
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Solid Roller vs. Hydraulic Hi All,
I have been told that solid is the way to go for best power production. But, I guess it's noisey (not that I really care)? I am going to build an LS1 or LS6 for a road-race car. Would like to know the pros and cons of a solid roller setup. Looking to turn high revs; about 76-7700 RPM if possible. I read the posts below as well.
Thanks for your comments,
I have been told that solid is the way to go for best power production. But, I guess it's noisey (not that I really care)? I am going to build an LS1 or LS6 for a road-race car. Would like to know the pros and cons of a solid roller setup. Looking to turn high revs; about 76-7700 RPM if possible. I read the posts below as well.
Thanks for your comments,
Last edited by Builder; 01-23-2005 at 12:03 PM. Reason: More Details
01-23-2005, 01:46 PM
#2
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Builder
Hi All,
I have been told that solid is the way to go for best power production. But, I guess it's noisey (not that I really care)? I am going to build an LS1 or LS6 for a road-race car. Would like to know the pros and cons of a solid roller setup. Looking to turn high revs; about 76-7700 RPM if possible. I read the posts below as well.
Thanks for your comments,
I have been told that solid is the way to go for best power production. But, I guess it's noisey (not that I really care)? I am going to build an LS1 or LS6 for a road-race car. Would like to know the pros and cons of a solid roller setup. Looking to turn high revs; about 76-7700 RPM if possible. I read the posts below as well.
Thanks for your comments,
01-23-2005, 02:48 PM
#3
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by LSUxBlake
Tell us more about your setup. Will you be driving it on the street? ( i know you said road-race, but I'm not sure if that means out on the street or on a road course) Are you building a bottom end as well? Because 7700rpm is some serious RPM. If so, what c.i., etc. Another big question is what heads you'll be running. Keep in mind you can make a lot of power with a hydraulic cam if the setup is right.
Yes, building the bottom end. Starting with a raw LSx (1 or 6) block, forged crank, rods, and pistons will be used. Displacement is not determined yet, but between 383 and 402. Not sure how big I can go, but don't want to get into re-sleeving.
Want to balance stroke length and displacement to turn 76-7700 RPM max with the power curve strongest between 3500 and 7500. The ideal curve would put torque at around 500-550 and 5000-5500 RPM and near 600 BHP+ at 7000-7200. 7500 rev limit. For heads, was thinking AFR LS1 205 ported.
Not clear on engine management yet, but probably FAST intake and computer. Haven't put any of this on a desktop dyno yet, but I think it's doable.
The concerns I had over solid roller are more about maintenance and durability. I am not sure why, but the implications have been that solid rollers are not great for a street(able) car. Is this valid, or myth? Do they have to be adjusted constantly, like weekly?
(Yes, there will be some canyon carving too
)Thanks,
01-23-2005, 03:44 PM
#4
11 & 7 Second Clubs
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Motorhome, Freeways, Truckstops, Pits
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You should build a hydraulic cam motor unless you intend to spin the motor beyond 7500 and spend your free time lashing valves.
Trending Topics
01-23-2005, 06:22 PM
#8
You dont have to lash the valves as much as some say. Alot of us run solid rollers in daily driven street / drag cars. I myself only had to actually relash the valves 3 times through out the summer. I would go roller.
01-23-2005, 06:22 PM
#9
You dont have to lash the valves as much as some say. Alot of us run solid rollers in daily driven street / drag cars. I myself only had to actually relash the valves 3 times through out the summer. I would go solid roller.
01-23-2005, 07:23 PM
#11
Originally Posted by camrsz
You dont have to lash the valves as much as some say. Alot of us run solid rollers in daily driven street / drag cars. I myself only had to actually relash the valves 3 times through out the summer. I would go roller.
what he said.......I have been running my car non stop for the past 6 months and have only checked the lash once (didn't have to change)....
01-23-2005, 07:52 PM
#12
TECH Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 3,726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by camrsz
You dont have to lash the valves as much as some say. Alot of us run solid rollers in daily driven street / drag cars. I myself only had to actually relash the valves 3 times through out the summer. I would go solid roller.
01-23-2005, 10:37 PM
#14
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KingCrapBox, do you like any desktop dyno software, or are you of the opinion that they are all worthless?
BickelFirebird, I am leaning towards the dark side. Solid roller, that is. If I have to adjust them every so often, that's okay. I just didn't want to have to do it every week. Once every couple of thousand miles would be acceptable as I figure I will be under the hood with some regularity anyway. And I do want the Rs. If I could spin to 8k safely, without getting too exotic, that would be fantastic.
11 Bravo and Camrsz, nice pix. Didn't see any solid roller photos. What kind are you using?
2001CamaroGuy, please tell me about your setup. Brain in sponge-mode about engine design.
TTExpreSS, sounds logical. What are you running with?
If you want to take the time, please tell me about your heads and cam combination as well. I really appreciate your comments. This borad is great and I have learned lots reading the posts.
BickelFirebird, I am leaning towards the dark side. Solid roller, that is. If I have to adjust them every so often, that's okay. I just didn't want to have to do it every week. Once every couple of thousand miles would be acceptable as I figure I will be under the hood with some regularity anyway. And I do want the Rs. If I could spin to 8k safely, without getting too exotic, that would be fantastic.
11 Bravo and Camrsz, nice pix. Didn't see any solid roller photos. What kind are you using?
2001CamaroGuy, please tell me about your setup. Brain in sponge-mode about engine design.
TTExpreSS, sounds logical. What are you running with?
If you want to take the time, please tell me about your heads and cam combination as well. I really appreciate your comments. This borad is great and I have learned lots reading the posts.
Last edited by Builder; 01-23-2005 at 10:50 PM. Reason: More Info
01-23-2005, 11:27 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Builder
2001CamaroGuy, please tell me about your setup. Brain in sponge-mode about engine design.
388 all bore.......Isky solid lifters, custom length/small oil hole pushrod, Comp (T&D) shaft rockers, and a custom solid cam (244/249 on a 112)....
it zings up like nothing else....
01-23-2005, 11:34 PM
#16
A couple of things. First, 7700rpm? That engine will have air requirements like most 427s. So, your no-re-sleeving is probably not going to fly. It may rev that high, however valve shrouding would be an issue.
At those revs you probably want the AFR 225s. You can use the stock CNC or get custom ports from bare castings from companies like TEA.
At those revs you are going to spend some serious money on your valvetrain. First, I don't think any cam, lifter, or head manufacturer/preparer will recommend hydraulics lifters in that range. Second, weight is a big issue. Those stock valves weigh around 75gms. 2.08 solid stem SS valves weight 112-120gm. You will need at least hollow stem (90gm @ 2.08) or Ti valves.
The stock rockers are probably not a good idea up there. You will need an adjustable set anyway. So you are looking at around $1000-1200 for shaft rockers.
You are going to need lifters anyway. Schubeck lifters (solid or hydraulic) are around 77gm and $1000. I imagine the Morel solids are close to that weight.
And those are not going to be 1.29" valve springs.
Everything is spinning very fast up there. So rotational inertia counts for a lot. And low mass effects the stresses. So you will be spending money down there. Probably at least $4k for parts. And the ultralight stuff doesn't seem to be available (at least from Crower and Callies) in the long LS1 strokes.
For all the talk about the damage from a dropped valve head, broken spring, stuck lifter...it really can't compare to a cracked piston (I had one of those, the rod went through the block). $18,000 later I had a new motor. And that was a 355 SBC in a restricted class with a 2v carb.
And those setups with those revs will demand a short rear gear. And like a close ratio transmission. More $$$.
If you search the posts here and elsewhere you will find people with dyno time and multiple headers or camshafts and a lot of testing. If that isn't in your budget you may want to go with a proven package.
So...if you don't have a lot of seat time on a road course, the money may be better spent initially on tires, brakes, shocks, bushings, anti-roll bars and safety equipment. A set of take-apart monotube shocks would let you change shock valving at the track. Something you won't due with a camshaft.
And if you already have the experience, a call to one of the road race experienced engine builders (LG comes to mind, however I sure their are others), may give you your best overall result.
My 2¢
David
At those revs you probably want the AFR 225s. You can use the stock CNC or get custom ports from bare castings from companies like TEA.
At those revs you are going to spend some serious money on your valvetrain. First, I don't think any cam, lifter, or head manufacturer/preparer will recommend hydraulics lifters in that range. Second, weight is a big issue. Those stock valves weigh around 75gms. 2.08 solid stem SS valves weight 112-120gm. You will need at least hollow stem (90gm @ 2.08) or Ti valves.
The stock rockers are probably not a good idea up there. You will need an adjustable set anyway. So you are looking at around $1000-1200 for shaft rockers.
You are going to need lifters anyway. Schubeck lifters (solid or hydraulic) are around 77gm and $1000. I imagine the Morel solids are close to that weight.
And those are not going to be 1.29" valve springs.
Everything is spinning very fast up there. So rotational inertia counts for a lot. And low mass effects the stresses. So you will be spending money down there. Probably at least $4k for parts. And the ultralight stuff doesn't seem to be available (at least from Crower and Callies) in the long LS1 strokes.
For all the talk about the damage from a dropped valve head, broken spring, stuck lifter...it really can't compare to a cracked piston (I had one of those, the rod went through the block). $18,000 later I had a new motor. And that was a 355 SBC in a restricted class with a 2v carb.
And those setups with those revs will demand a short rear gear. And like a close ratio transmission. More $$$.
If you search the posts here and elsewhere you will find people with dyno time and multiple headers or camshafts and a lot of testing. If that isn't in your budget you may want to go with a proven package.
So...if you don't have a lot of seat time on a road course, the money may be better spent initially on tires, brakes, shocks, bushings, anti-roll bars and safety equipment. A set of take-apart monotube shocks would let you change shock valving at the track. Something you won't due with a camshaft.
And if you already have the experience, a call to one of the road race experienced engine builders (LG comes to mind, however I sure their are others), may give you your best overall result.
My 2¢
David
01-23-2005, 11:36 PM
#17
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 2001CamaroGuy
388 all bore.......Isky solid lifters, custom length/small oil hole pushrod, Comp (T&D) shaft rockers, and a custom solid cam (244/249 on a 112)....
it zings up like nothing else....
it zings up like nothing else....
01-23-2005, 11:49 PM
#18
Originally Posted by Builder
Nice! What RPM are you running up to?
thus far I have never gone past 7200RPM.......I'm having a problem of pumping the pan dry at high RPM so I have not wanted to "test it" yet
......but man is it pulling like a crazy and had not even come close to reaching it's max HP RPM.......I hope to shift around 7800
01-23-2005, 11:57 PM
#19
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 2001CamaroGuy
thus far I have never gone past 7200RPM.......I'm having a problem of pumping the pan dry at high RPM so I have not wanted to "test it" yet ......but man is it pulling like a crazy and had not even come close to reaching it's max HP RPM.......I hope to shift around 7800
......but man is it pulling like a crazy and had not even come close to reaching it's max HP RPM.......I hope to shift around 7800
01-24-2005, 12:30 AM
#20
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
A couple of things. First, 7700rpm? That engine will have air requirements like most 427s. So, your no-re-sleeving is probably not going to fly. It may rev that high, however valve shrouding would be an issue.
At those revs you probably want the AFR 225s. You can use the stock CNC or get custom ports from bare castings from companies like TEA.
At those revs you are going to spend some serious money on your valvetrain. First, I don't think any cam, lifter, or head manufacturer/preparer will recommend hydraulics lifters in that range. Second, weight is a big issue. Those stock valves weigh around 75gms. 2.08 solid stem SS valves weight 112-120gm. You will need at least hollow stem (90gm @ 2.08) or Ti valves.
The stock rockers are probably not a good idea up there. You will need an adjustable set anyway. So you are looking at around $1000-1200 for shaft rockers.
You are going to need lifters anyway. Schubeck lifters (solid or hydraulic) are around 77gm and $1000. I imagine the Morel solids are close to that weight.
And those are not going to be 1.29" valve springs.
Everything is spinning very fast up there. So rotational inertia counts for a lot. And low mass effects the stresses. So you will be spending money down there. Probably at least $4k for parts. And the ultralight stuff doesn't seem to be available (at least from Crower and Callies) in the long LS1 strokes.
For all the talk about the damage from a dropped valve head, broken spring, stuck lifter...it really can't compare to a cracked piston (I had one of those, the rod went through the block). $18,000 later I had a new motor. And that was a 355 SBC in a restricted class with a 2v carb.
And those setups with those revs will demand a short rear gear. And like a close ratio transmission. More $$$.
If you search the posts here and elsewhere you will find people with dyno time and multiple headers or camshafts and a lot of testing. If that isn't in your budget you may want to go with a proven package.
So...if you don't have a lot of seat time on a road course, the money may be better spent initially on tires, brakes, shocks, bushings, anti-roll bars and safety equipment. A set of take-apart monotube shocks would let you change shock valving at the track. Something you won't due with a camshaft.
And if you already have the experience, a call to one of the road race experienced engine builders (LG comes to mind, however I sure their are others), may give you your best overall result.
My 2¢
David
At those revs you probably want the AFR 225s. You can use the stock CNC or get custom ports from bare castings from companies like TEA.
At those revs you are going to spend some serious money on your valvetrain. First, I don't think any cam, lifter, or head manufacturer/preparer will recommend hydraulics lifters in that range. Second, weight is a big issue. Those stock valves weigh around 75gms. 2.08 solid stem SS valves weight 112-120gm. You will need at least hollow stem (90gm @ 2.08) or Ti valves.
The stock rockers are probably not a good idea up there. You will need an adjustable set anyway. So you are looking at around $1000-1200 for shaft rockers.
You are going to need lifters anyway. Schubeck lifters (solid or hydraulic) are around 77gm and $1000. I imagine the Morel solids are close to that weight.
And those are not going to be 1.29" valve springs.
Everything is spinning very fast up there. So rotational inertia counts for a lot. And low mass effects the stresses. So you will be spending money down there. Probably at least $4k for parts. And the ultralight stuff doesn't seem to be available (at least from Crower and Callies) in the long LS1 strokes.
For all the talk about the damage from a dropped valve head, broken spring, stuck lifter...it really can't compare to a cracked piston (I had one of those, the rod went through the block). $18,000 later I had a new motor. And that was a 355 SBC in a restricted class with a 2v carb.
And those setups with those revs will demand a short rear gear. And like a close ratio transmission. More $$$.
If you search the posts here and elsewhere you will find people with dyno time and multiple headers or camshafts and a lot of testing. If that isn't in your budget you may want to go with a proven package.
So...if you don't have a lot of seat time on a road course, the money may be better spent initially on tires, brakes, shocks, bushings, anti-roll bars and safety equipment. A set of take-apart monotube shocks would let you change shock valving at the track. Something you won't due with a camshaft.
And if you already have the experience, a call to one of the road race experienced engine builders (LG comes to mind, however I sure their are others), may give you your best overall result.
My 2¢
David
Seriously, I know this is going to be a high-digit build and am somewhat prepared for the shock. This is a ground-up build and it's not going in an F-body, but a tube-chassis, mid-engine setup with a close-ratio transaxle, Intrax adjustable shocks, and 335/30-18 on the rear, FIA roll-bar, AP brakes, etc...
I do a fair amount of "road racing" with my two-ton-Tilly (LT1 Impala). But, even with a Moog front end, Bilsteins x4, BMR rear upper and lower trailing arms and beefier sway-bars with 285/40-17, she doesn't deliver the Gs I am looking for on the track. Still lots of fun. I also raced Karts back 30 years (at Darlington, PA).
I have been reading posts like a mad-man without finding what I am looking for yet. This is a huge board! It's probably out there. The setup 2001CamaroGuy has is about as close as I have seen. Real curious on the curve data for that engine, dude. Nice setup.
That said, I know I am looking for high performance components and will have to "pay the piper" for some exotic materials. The upgrades, like titanium valves, retainers, are not that expensive when starting from scratch. I wonder if those LS7 rods can be made to fit the LS1? Or, since this build may require a fair amount of machining, I could have the journals turned to fit the rods. Don't know yet...
Ouch! $18k!!! Crap, that must have been a real bummer. I can only imagine how you felt. I hope all I can ever do is imagine how you felt.
I will definitely look at TEA, Schubeck, Morel and LG as I haven't heard those names before.
Thanks, Dave. I appreciate your valuable 2¢ comments...