89FormulaLS2

iTrader: (1)

Okay guys, need some help. Did a few searches and didn't really find anything that gave a "definite" answer to my questions.

I'm looking at the sales from AP-Engineering and IconAutoSports in the Sponsors specials forum, and got some prices from them for a 347 and a 383 shortblock.

My goals for my car (the one in my sig) is to have a VERY streetable, DAILY DRIVER that can also open up a can of whoop-*** whenever I want it to (450rwhp+ this year, 600rwhp+ after FI). I'd like to try my first drag-strip race maybe this summer, or certainly next year. This will be a street/strip car for sure in the long term.

I've been doing a lot of research on the STS Turbo kits. Sounds like fun, and certainly fits the needs of my car (considering I will be moving to San Diego, CA in the near future and dealing with the smog *****). Realistically a little too expensive for THIS year, but definitely going on at some point.

So I'm trying to decide if I should go with a 347, or a 383. I want to keep gas mileage as high as possible for when I drive "properly" on the street/highways, but I DO realize that the second I stick my foot into it that it's not an economy car.

I'm thinking that the 347 with the turbo is gonna be plenty powerful in the long run, but that the 383 might be a cost & power compromise in the short term till I can afford FI. I just don't want to end up with a car that empties my wallet every 200 miles, won't pass smog, or that doesn't want to play nice on street manners. I am also concerned about how the 383 might perform as a daily driver once I put the turbo on it in a year or two.

Suggestions? Reasons? Experiences?

mike#9

iTrader: (3)

How much are you looking to spend?

Do you already have heads..or are you going to buy a longblock?

I would look at the Eagle 408 from APE....really good deal...and 408's love boost!!

cyphur

iTrader: (10)

i don't see a 408 passing smog, w/o a small cam in there. and that compromises power. look at the ls7...all you'll need to do is swap the cam out and WHABAM....automatic 550 to the rear wheels most likely. that IS an option tho if you only smog once every two years....to swap out to a small cam that will pass.

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

do a 383. Even with a nice streetable cam, It will woop *** on most everything. Forget the turbos and the BIG $$. A 383 with good heads and exhaust will have tons of power on the street. You can throw a 100 shot on it if need you more kick at the track and have tires that will stick.

Race Car Driver

How quick do you want your car to be?

89FormulaLS2

iTrader: (1)

For this year I'd be happy with low-mid 11's. Long term I want to be in the 9s but still streetable.

Of course, the REAL answer is the same for most I think: As fast as possible!!

But for me, the daily driver element is more important than just all out speed or ETs or peak hp/tq ratings.

89FormulaLS2

iTrader: (1)

Yes, the APE sale is something I am very much considering. Sounds so far like the 383 might be the best bet for a daily driver with oomph.

I already have heads, all I need is a shortblock. I have a complete engine and 2 transmissions for sale that can fund this upgrade.

Race Car Driver

The reason I ask is that the number mistake that most racers make is not firmly deciding how fast they want their car to be BEFORE starting to build, which results in large amounts of waisted money.

If you are convinced you want to run 9s, but can't afford the money now to complete that car, start adding parts that will support a 9 second car. For example, go with a bigger engine than it takes to run 11s; buy a 9 inch Ford rather than Moser 12 bolt; put a built 11:1 383 street motor in your car and spray it as hard as it takes.

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

and are very different objectives.

Low 11 second "VERY streetable" is easy with the 383. High 10s too. The iron 408s make more power, but add weight to the front of the car.

9's are long way from 11's in terms of power needed, power handling capability of the drivetrain, and typical weight reduction; not to mention the roll cage instead of roll bars, etc.

Not too many true 9 second street cars around.

TeeKay

Stroker 383 with cam and heads should get you to 425-480 whp N/A depending on how you build it. I went with 9.7:1 compression so I could boost later. That would put me in the lower range for the engine N/A. With the STS and 5-6 psi, I expect around 550 whp. You won't be sorry you went bigger at first. The 346 is a dynamite engine, the 383 (or larger) is pure TNT.

Mileage depends on how you drive it and shouldn't change appreciably in normal driving. Normal = normal mileage (or better) and WOT = terrible mileage (but who cares!).

matts22

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, you are looking at 2 completely different goals. You'll end up spending WAY more money then if you just sit down, decide what you want out of the car, and start slowly buying parts toward that goal.

IMO though, if you can afford to build a decent 383 right now, you could afford a decent turbo. I know you would need a lot of other stuff, but you could start working towards that instead. For instance, HP Performance is coming out with a turbo sometime soon that is only like $4000 but includes everything. Then you could get a tune (difficult with turbo so find the right person) and drive it for awhile, even at lower boost. Then, down the road, when you have more money....buy heads, cam, roll cage, 9 inch, etc. to support it and you will be at your goal.

It just seems counterproductive to me to build a stroker with decent power now (you will need more compression than a turbo likes to make decent power). With all of that money going to build a stroker, you could put toward a turbo setup if that is where you truly want to go.

And if you decide you don't want the 9 sec street car, just build a sweet stroker setup now, with high compression and everything and scrap the turbo plan.

Just decide what you want to do with the car and don't waste your money.

Again, just my two cents.

89FormulaLS2

iTrader: (1)

While I do admit to being something of a novice yet as far as "hands-on" experience, I wouldn't say I am a newbie anymore, either. Everything I've done for this buildup is leading to very high HP capabilities. I am replacing the stock Borg-Warner 9-bolt with a Moser 9" rear end, upgrading my brakes all the way around, and will have 17x11" wheels in the back and 17x9.5" in the front. I have a Spohn chromoly torque arm, LCA relocation brackets, subframe connectors, Hawks tubular k-member, and Spohn tubular A-arms, all ready to be put in. ALL 3rd gen Formulas came with the WS6 package, so sway bars and other stock suspension components are already pretty beefy, however I am prepared to upgrade those as is deemed necessary. I have already installed the 4th gen gas tank (to keep the smog ***** happy) and will be upgrading to (most likely) a Walbro fuel pump when we install everything else. My 3rd gen Formula will be about 200 pounds or more LIGHTER than a stock 4th gen once the LS1 conversion is done. This is not stuff I "plan" to do, it is stuff that I already have purchased, and is just waiting to be put onto the car! (February 10th is the drop-off day)


I am now at the final stages of planning for what the engine will need to be to reach my goals. I do believe, after receiving responses on a few different threads, PMs, and Emails, that the 383 stroker is my best bet. As to spraying, I'd rather go with the turbo; just personal preference, as well as not having any complications with CA emissions laws and inspections.

89FormulaLS2

iTrader: (1)

Why are they different objectives? If I can make low 11s or high 10s on all engine and be streetable, why would I be any less streetable with a turbo system, and why would 9s be so difficult to reach from the power levels you are stating the 383 will give me? High tens to high nines will take what, between 100 and 200 rwhp? The STS should give me all that and then some! My drivetrain should be able to handle it (the T56 would be the weak link - but can always be rebuilt to be stronger). As I said, my car will be an estimated 200 pounds or more LIGHTER than a stock 4th gen once the LS1 conversion is done. Not a huge weight savings, but still significant.
As to the roll cage issue, good point there; I haven't really thought about that issue much yet. Perhaps I'll reconsider taking it to the track if that's what is required. I just have always dreamed about having a 9 second super-car that would blow doors off just about anyone on the street/highway, ever since I was a little kid. With Gen III technology, I see my dream as finally becoming possible.

matts22

iTrader: (2)

How much are you going to spend on a stroker kit? Why not put that towards buying the turbo kit now, if that is your goal? Just run a little lower boost, but still make awesome power. Then, when you get more money (that you would be upgrading to a turbo originally), get an awesome set of low compression heads, a FI cam, etc. and complete the setup to run 9's (all safety stuff included). This just seems like a lot better plan to me, but JMO.

89FormulaLS2

iTrader: (1)

Slowhawk will be doing the tuning, and I have discussed this a little with him as well. He is suggesting I build the 383 for a 9.5:1 CR to be able to add boost later (same as you did). I'll put my ported/milled heads on for now, raising compression to around 10.2:1, and add a bigger cam. When I add the STS, I'll put on ported 72cc heads to bring compression back down again. I'm am drooling over this "TNT" already......

Thanks for your input!!

89FormulaLS2

iTrader: (1)

I do not understand why you guys see a conflict in my goals; nor do I see why you say to "decide what I want to do with my car" - I already have decided, and I have clearly stated what I wanted it to do. I do not see that anything I have stated is in conflict, either. Once again, if I can make low 11s or better on all motor, why should 9s be so difficult after adding FI?

What you say makes sense, but perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough. I am not just buying a "stroker kit," I am looking to buy a full shortblock with forged internals. My power goals are going to need the extra strength in the long run, so I might as well address them up front now, and be able to move forward with confidence. Otherwise, I'm going to have to worry if I'm going to crack a piston with too much boost, or whatever.

I also cannot look at just "any" FI kit. It will have to satisfy TWO key requirements:
1. It must be able to FIT into my 3rd Gen LS1-converted car (very different engine bay layout than you 4th gen guys)
2. It must be CARB legal for when I move to California

In my research thus far, the STS system meets those two criteria the best.

Now, looking at the shortblocks, it is about $1k extra to get the 383 over a 347. The STS is going to cost me close to $6k by the time I pay for parts, custom installation (I have a 3rd gen Formula, not a 4th gen), intercooler, and tuning. Hell, the ENTIRE 383 shortblock I am looking at is only going to cost me $3350 plus shipping, and then reassemble the top and accessories!) Installation of the engine is irrelevant, as I am doing that regardless. So I can make a short-term compromise on potential power by going to the 383, save myself $2500 bucks for this year, and STILL meet my short term goals. In the end, I'll be better able to meet my long term goals as well, when I finally do go to FI.

Thanks for your input, though. Everyone's thoughts have been truly appreciated.

At this point, I have decided to go ahead and get the 383 shorblock from APE.

TAQuickness

iTrader: (28)

If you have your mind made up already, then by all means, pursue your goals.

The guys here are suggesting that you take a little more time to research what it's really going to take for you to do this. Building an 11 sec street car now with plans to make it a 9 car in the future is a challenge enough, but you've added the additional complexity of doing it in a 3rd gen w/ an LS1. Can it be done? Yes, but the aftermarket is not 100% behind you on this.

I built a spread sheet for me to keep track of my 383 project. With my goals clearly defined, and 6 months of non stop research of the best bang for the buck to meet my goals, I still ended up 1k and 2 months over budget. Why might you ask? Because of all the little **** and weak links you don't think of.

I am not trying to discourage you from pursuing your goals. In your original post you did ask for advice on how to accomplish your goals. The guys here have given you some excellent advice.

My advice to you, research what it will take to make a 9 second daily driver. Then, since you are on a budget, like most of us here, research how to break your project into two phases, N/A and F/I.

89FormulaLS2

iTrader: (1)

Congratulations! You have now ALMOST caught up to where I am at!!

As you read this, please do not think I am being adversarial. I write this in a very calm and patient state of mind.

I believe that the problem here is that a couple of you seem to think I just woke up one morning this week and suddenly decided I wanted to build a fast car. That is NOT the case. You say you spent six months doing research on your project. Well, I already have WELL OVER A YEAR OF RESEARCH into mine. I began doing research on this in October of 2003.
I know what it is going to take to make a 9 second daily driver, and have already spent thousands of dollars to prepare for that. I HAVE already researched how to break my project into two phases. I HAVE already accounted and prepared for a lot of the "little **** and weak links" that you refer to. Will there be more? Of course, there is always something that gets overlooked or that has to be customized. But I believe I have the major issues covered, and even most of the minor ones.

The challenge isn't even that I am doing this in a 3rd gen car (that isn't all that bad once you do the research - it's easier than most people think). The REAL "challenge" is that I have to reach my goals while keeping this legal for California equipment and emissions laws for when I move to San Diego. THAT is the direct root of my concerns on this thread.

I think the problem lies with this statement:That is NOT what I asked..... I asked SPECIFICALLY if I should get a 383 shortblock as opposed to a 347 shortblock. I had SPECIFIC concerns with going with an increased displacement engine, given the goals of my project (mainly streetability).

Yes, I have been given some good advice. There is some GREAT advice on here for any newbie that has NOT done research; I am just not that person. No one has "discouraged" me from reaching my goals, nor have I taken anything that way. I think I just failed to state clearly enough where I already am at in this project. (Read my updated Signature.)

I had at one point dismissed the necessity of going with a stroker, since FI could do the job without the extra expense. But the sale from APE made me reconsider that option, simply because the c.i. upgrade would be so inexpensive. It also makes my short term goals a no-brainer to reach, in the opinions of several who have responded to my questions (not just on this thread).

The advice and opinions that I have received on the questions and concerns I had about going to a 383 (over the 347) have been addressed. Thank you all. I look forward to sharing the results with you!!

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

Keeping reliability and acheiving traction at 11 seconds and 9 seconds are 2 differrent ballgames. I'm not saying it can't be done, but look around at how many of these cars are in the 9s. Very few. Of these cars, are any true daily drivers, I doubt it. Even the turbos have a hard time staying on the road at 600+ RWHP. I think you have a better grasp of theory than practicality. For example, 17 x 11s make for nice handling, but their low, stiff sidewalls do not allow for any give that makes for hooking up 500+ RWHP from a stop or low speeds.

Maybe what you are looking for is fast from a roll which clearly you can achieve. A 130+ mph trap speed will blow most street cars away and is much easier to acheive than running 9s.

89FormulaLS2

iTrader: (1)

Ragtop, you just pretty much hit the nail on the head. I DO have a better grasp of theory than "practicality" in racing areas, which is why I stated I am still a novice in the "hands-on" area. I've never done a track race, only highway races.

Yes, there are very few true 9 second cars, especially on the street; I have just always dreamed of having one "some day"....... or at the very least one that would be capable IF I can make it hook.

Maybe I am wrong, but the turbo has to spool up before the extra power kicks in full force, correct? SO, my logic is that the extra power from the turbo won't be much of an issue at launch. Is this right, or am I way off base in that regard? Like I said earlier, this is going to see mostly street use, so I'm not going to be doing high-rev dumps when launching. Most of us in our club launch from about 2000-2500 rpms, or else from a slight roll.....