fnbrowning

I will not name the sponsor or bash. But what I'm trying to figure out is how they are selling this combination when it appears that "everyone" sez that LS6 springs are no good with higher lift cams.

Currently, I am looking for a cam for my 2002 T/A. I emailed some sponsors for technical suggestions. One guy recommended his cam with as much as .580 lift on a lobe. He then went on to state that >>"We currently have the cam & LS6 spring kit for sale"<<

So, they are marketing a kit with LS6 springs for .580 lift.

I'm getting told by others I need aftermarket springs, Manley, Comp Cams, Crane, what-have-you for a cam with only .566 lift.

What is the truth?
Are we generally being "oversold" on expensive springs?
Would LS6 springs be on the "ragged edge" for my .566 lift?
Or is the sponsor guy correct in selling a kit with LS6 springs for as much as .580 lift?

jrp

iTrader: (16)

i assume your talking about the LPE gt2-3 cam kit . i have no doubt that LPE tested out there lobes with a variety of spring pressures and rates. if the ls6 springs worked and controlled the cam with no valve floating or other detriments then i dont see why they wouldnt use them.

ss rally red

iTrader: (8)

The Ls6 springs are according to GM much supirior to the LS1 springs and of course come with the Hotcam, I have talked to some cam companys that have said they are good for around 575 on the lift. But if it bothers you why not buy some 918's and be done with it?

fnbrowning

What would bother me is paying too much for what I don't really need.

Like so many of us, my modification budget is limited, and to do a cam swap, it means money is going to have to be saved & then spent wisely.

It's too easy to overbuy for insurance you don't need. So I turn to the peer review of the minds of LS1tech for the straight dope.

If the LS6 springs are good to go for 10's of thousands of miles on a cam with < .570 lift, then Woo-hoo! the $90 dollars for LS6 is better than aftermarket $195 & I get to eat better than Ramen noodles for the next month!

WHICH IS THE BETTER SPRING??

12565313 Valve Spring --
LS6 valve spring. Used with P/N 88598606 roller camshaft.
GM PART # 12565313 *
CATEGORY: Engine Valve Spring
PACK QTY: 1 CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $8.61
OUR PRICE: $4.91
DESCRIPTION: SPRING

OR

12565117 Valve Spring --
LS6 valve spring. Used with P/N 12480033 “Gen 3” Hot Cam.
GM PART # 12565117
CATEGORY: Engine Valve Spring
PACK QTY: 1 CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $9.63
OUR PRICE: $5.49
DESCRIPTION: SPRING
These valve springs are intended for heavy duty applications in Gen III Vortec small-block engines. This spring is original equipment in LS6 engines

ss rally red

iTrader: (8)

Dude I wasn't trying to belittle someone on a budget,hell I am too(if you took it that way) I was just stating that if you were concerned on there effectivness you could get some 918's(I run them on my F11-575-597 lift, for a whole lot less than 195.00 dollars as you stated.) it was an option that could allow you to go somewhat bigger on your cam at a latter date WITHOUT haveing to upgrade springs again.

Flareside

The issue is not only lift, it's the whole package. An LS6 spring is no where near coil bind, even at the LPE cam's .580 lift, so that's not the real issue. It's all about seat pressure and lobe intensity. All .580 (or even .550) lift cams are not created equally, so one cam may create much faster lifter acceleration and require much more spring pressure to keep everything in contact at high rpms. The LS6 springs have around 100 lb. seat pressure, the aftermarket stuff is much stronger.

IMO, if you find a cam that will work well with the LS6 springs, it should live a long and happy life without much maintenance or noise. The stiffer the spring, the more brittle it becomes and the faster it will wear out. Right now, I have a GT2-3 and an AFR 224 cam to install, but I haven't decided which one to go with yet. The GT2-3 cam combo should be quieter and run much longer between spring changes, but the AFR cam will definitely make more torque. Tough decision for me.

The .570", etc. rules you see for the LS6 springs are only ballpark guidelines for an average aftermarket cam, not hard and fast rules. From what I've seen and measured, GT2-3 is about average on the intake lobe, and pretty mild on the exhaust lobe.

fnbrowning

ss rally red - You're okay man, no flame intended!

I'm ordering a Comp Cams custom grind.
the tech said "it's not an overly aggressive lobe ramp" or something along those words.

WHICH IS THE BETTER SPRING??

12565313 Valve Spring --
LS6 valve spring. Used with P/N 88598606 roller camshaft.
GM PART # 12565313 *
CATEGORY: Engine Valve Spring
PACK QTY: 1 CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $8.61
OUR PRICE: $4.91
DESCRIPTION: SPRING

OR

12565117 Valve Spring --
LS6 valve spring. Used with P/N 12480033 “Gen 3” Hot Cam.
GM PART # 12565117
CATEGORY: Engine Valve Spring
PACK QTY: 1 CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $9.63
OUR PRICE: $5.49
DESCRIPTION: SPRING
These valve springs are intended for heavy duty applications in Gen III Vortec small-block engines. This spring is original equipment in LS6 engines

Flareside

Run the right spring for your application, unfortunately, that means paying whatever the right spring costs. That said, stiffer aftermarket springs are not always an upgrade, especially if your cam will be fine without them. Stiffer springs will make more noise, generate more heat and friction, and wear out faster. No bargain. LPE knows their stuff, I would definitely run the LS6 springs with that cam.

Flareside

What Comp lobe are you going to run, and what spring does Comp recommend with it? I'd be careful about the LS6 springs here, the LPE cam is more mild that most of the Comp specs I've seen (the LPE exhaust is 281@.006, 220@.050, and 133@.200).

fnbrowning

Sounds like Good Advice, Thanks!

But I think everyone may be missing something. While it appears I will be running an LPE cam, I'm not. That was just an example starting point.

I'm running a Comp Cams custom grind. So I'm on my own when it comes to choosing a spring. Now, Comp Cams wants me to buy their springs, Of Course! They're in business to sell products - understood.
Comp Cams Custom Grind. Tech sez it's a standard ramp.
.224/.224 .568/.568 114 LSA +4 degrees advanced.
It's supposed to be good to 6400 rpm. I will set my speed limiter to 6600.

He recommended a Comp Cams 26918-16 spring - But That Could Easily Be Overkill/Sales On The Tech's Part.


So based on the two GM Parts Direct springs listed above, I'm hoping to find out which is the better overall product. They will both install in a stock application with original keepers & seats? Is this correct??
Then it's a matter of which one will last the longest - and I don't have any idea how to tell that.

Ideas anyone?

SPANKY LS1

iTrader: (24)

Personally, I would never run a single spring, duals are too affordable. One single (LS6, 918, etc) spring breaks, ever, for any reason, and your shortblock is toast. Duals are cheap insurance, in my opinion. I 100% understand the budget thing, but if you can't readily afford to use sufficient and reliable springs, you'll definitely be in deep doo-doo if a spring ever breaks and a valve drops. IMO, save for a month or two, get some PRC or PP duals (both can be had for <$300 with titanium retainers, seals, and seats), slap it all in and be done with it, no worries.

Just my .02, good luck, Shawn

Flareside

That looks like an Xtreme RPM high lift lobe:


They are more aggressive than the LPE grind. LPE is a GM supplier, and they test all their "certified" stuff, but that won't apply to your Comp grind and LS6 springs. You'll either have to find another quality shop that's tested the configuration you're thinking about, buy and run the recommended Comp 918 springs, or run the LS6s and keep an eye on them... I would run the 918 beehive springs with that cam.

ss rally red

iTrader: (8)

Shawn I respect your opinion but I think there are some advantages of the beehive single spring applications in alot of cases, hell i wish i had handy the copy of HotRod magazine where they tested a set of dual/vs Beehive single springs on both a ford and Chevy application and the single spring was able to rev higher without valve float because of less weight on the valve.... your points are well noted on the safety issue, but since the blue stripes have come out how many valve spring failures have we seen with 918's?

fnbrowning

Yup, and I found this elsewhere:
That's a deal breaker. I will not buy a cam that's hard on the valvesprings.

As to the LPE grinds, they either have more lift than I'd like and with an LSA that's too high, or acceptable lift with too narrow of an LSA. {112}

Geez! My '02 LS1 has an LSA of 116, I'm sure as heck not going to LPE's 118.5!

D@mn, got to start all over!

I might just surrender and get the '02 LS6 cam at least it's LSA is 117 degrees!

PREDATOR-Z

Just what are you basing your cam choice on ???
and what is your goal with such a cam??

jrp

iTrader: (16)

he's basing it on spring life i believe. wants an install and never touch the springs cam.

OnE Ls1 2 HaTe

that's like ******* random girls with out a condom, your gunna get an std sooner or later

PREDATOR-Z

If that is the case, then look at the comp 216/220, .525/.532 114+4 lsa
It will work with 02+ LS6 springs, has a little lope, gentle ramps and has potential of 360+ rwhp cam only + bolt ons (M6). power range 1800>6100 peak at ~5800 depending on the rest of your setup.

fnbrowning

Given that I have an emission friendly Dynatech LT header system, I'm looking at what can be done with a cam to raise the '01 Firebird's power/torque & still meet drivability & emissions. I plan no future major modifications such as ported heads or supercharging.
I've owned Pontiac Firebirds for years. I've never had one of my cars on the drag strip, and probably never will. I enjoy driving fast on the highway. I enjoy high performance. But time spent in the aerospace industry has taught me that engine power can never come at the expense of reliability.

These is no reason not to expect tens upon 1000's of miles of driving on the right cam/spring combination. Quite frankly, I want the springs to last until some major part(s) go out of tolerance and the engine requires overhaul. . . . . Reliability. . .

Where do I find that in their catalog??
I went to Comp Cams / Products / Cams / General Motors / GenIII and all I see is their Xtreme RPM series.

PREDATOR-Z

63-LS-216/220 Comp Cams LS1 Camshaft - 216 / 220 .525 / .532 114 LSA 1300-6300 RPM Power Band. Computer Tuning Required with automatic transmission cars. One of our most popular cams...This has proven to be a very well balanced camshaft in that it makes good power across the entire RPM range. Works well with Crane 1.8 Roller Rockers. $399.99
View Dyno Graph


I had this cam before on my 99 TA, made ~370 (M6), used LS6 02 springs for 30K untill I sold the car.

This is from Thunder Racing.