Drag Racing Tech - Can a 2800-pound N2O car compete with the turbo cars?

Let's just say I know a nitrous junkie that has a pretty fast Camaro already. It is under 360 cid with N2O and runs 5.6 - 5.7 @ 121 (1/8th) on about a 200-shot.

If the engine were stroked out to 408, C5R heads added, and the N2O bumped a bit, can this car compete in the Outlaw class?

Let's hear your opinions :D

Oh yeah, ever seen an f-body at 2800 pounds with driver that "looks factory"?

Yes. For example, let's use SAM's car as a reference point. Take a car similar to that, put a 300-400 shot on it and run 7s. Let's just say I know a nitrous junkie that has a pretty fast Camaro already. It is under 360 cid with N2O and runs 5.6 - 5.7 @ 121 (1/8th) on about a 200-shot.

If the engine were stroked out to 408, C5R heads added, and the N2O bumped a bit, can this car compete in the Outlaw class?

Let's hear your opinions :D

Are you bringing that tube car to BG in August? Like to check it out :D

Actually, we have discussed toting both the '99 and Firebird to BG just to have some fun and see all the other FI cars. Is there a class for the Firebird?Are you bringing that tube car to BG in August? Like to check it out :D

I don't know? Maybe we can talk to Beech Bend about getting a group of cars there for you to play with. Maybe a 7.90 class? What would you prefer? Heads up?

Well, as you know, we're basically bracket racers. The bird would run 7.10 on the motor and 6.90s on the spray in BG. It would be fun for us to race the fastest LS1/C5R car in some type of ET based, King of Track kinda thing. Or, BG could just add a Top Sportsman race on that weekend. There's a lot of TS cars in that area.

Let's just say I know a nitrous junkie that has a pretty fast Camaro already. It is under 360 cid with N2O and runs 5.6 - 5.7 @ 121 (1/8th) on about a 200-shot.

If the engine were stroked out to 408, C5R heads added, and the N2O bumped a bit, can this car compete in the Outlaw class?

Let's hear your opinions :D

That's a good question. I think unless there are some pretty big weight breaks for the N20 cars they probably won't have a chance against that faster FI cars...now that I say that somebody will prove me wrong lol.

I'm building a fairly stout N20 setup (13:1 402 with AFR's and several other things we're trying) now for my car but really have no intentions of running the LS1Tech series as my setup puts me in outlaw where I have no chance against the faster FI cars.

I figure next year when I have a little more $$$ I'll do an FI setup but right now I've just graduated and moved to take an engineering job....so FI is out of the question right now.

todd i like to see your nos car that went 5.6 to the 1/8
we went 5.7 and nobody has gone faster than since then with a nos car

I think 5.74 is the best so far, but I may be wrong. 358 cid solid roller, carb style intake with 90mm tb, standard plate type N2O kit with 210 pills. The car Sean Freese at Fastech, and I may be back with the shop very soon.

wasnt fastech a sponsor dont remember hearing about that car

I'd like to see it. Give us n2o junkies hope and an "underdog" to cheer for, haha

I think it could very well be possible in Outlaw for a car to look factory and be at that weight. The fiberglass hatch/percy's speedglass will help(granted that doesn't look "factory" but oh well)

Let's just say I know a nitrous junkie that has a pretty fast Camaro already. It is under 360 cid with N2O and runs 5.6 - 5.7 @ 121 (1/8th) on about a 200-shot.

:D

Well I don't know of too many turbo cars besides Big Rick, Harlan, and Bradys. Not sure what Big Rick weighs, but Brady weighs 3600#. He's been tuning it to run the pump gas drags next month so I don't know what he would run balls out. Recently he ran a 5.40 index class on the pump gas tune, let out the throttle early, trying not to break out and ran a 5.30. Next time out he tried a little harder not to break out, let out and hit the brakes and rolled through at a 5.70...

So to answer your question.... probably not, but one thing the nitrous cars have on these turbo cars is they are pretty consistant. Turbo cars seem to have trouble hooking up down track and A NUMBER of other issues so... Just because they show don't mean they'll win.

I think 5.74 is the best so far, but I may be wrong. 358 cid solid roller, carb style intake with 90mm tb, standard plate type N2O kit with 210 pills. The car Sean Freese at Fastech, and I may be back with the shop very soon.

Stock or aftermarket engine management?

i've seen the car in question run, and there's no potential for it to run with what Harlan, and Duke and the likes are running. the car doesn't really look any more factory than any other car i've seen either. actually looks less stock then Duke's or Harlan's cars with that big hood. not a chance...

big hood? its a SS hood........................

it's not a stock SS hood, it's taller

it's not a stock SS hood, it's taller


Dont be a hater now Matt, prolly hard for u to do though, being the fact your car is going to be down for a year or so.

It does have a taller scoop portion on the hood, and some holshots on it. ( similar to bogarts). It has full interior with a 10 point cage and kirkeys.

It has been 5.74@ 121 with a 1.24 60ft. on the 210 pills. 358 ci, Stock engine management system tunes speed density by Sean.

I think its possible to hang, there is a good tem of guys that work at the shop and work on the car.

i'm not matt, i've been mistaken for whoever that is twice now. my name is James. i saw this car run the night it wrecked a while back. it's got balls, but not enough to run with the big boys.

Dont be a hater now Matt, prolly hard for u to do though, being the fact your car is going to be down for a year or so.

It does have a taller scoop portion on the hood, and some holshots on it. ( similar to bogarts). It has full interior with a 10 point cage and kirkeys.

It has been 5.74@ 121 with a 1.24 60ft. on the 210 pills. 358 ci, Stock engine management system tunes speed density by Sean.

I think its possible to hang, there is a good tem of guys that work at the shop and work on the car.

How did they make a 358 out of a 346 ?

iron block maybe?

I don't think so Todd,unless you're holing pistons every pass.

What will a C5R headed 358 solid roller make on motor,maybe 750 flywheel.Put a 400-500 shot on it and still comes up way short.

It's not going to hang with a 1700-1800hp 3100-3200 lb turbo car.I've discussed this at length with some experienced,smart racers and I don't see the nitrous car being competitive.

Are there even any Outlaw cars running nitrous anymore?

Dont be a hater now Matt, prolly hard for u to do though, being the fact your car is going to be down for a year or so.

It does have a taller scoop portion on the hood, and some holshots on it. ( similar to bogarts). It has full interior with a 10 point cage and kirkeys.

It has been 5.74@ 121 with a 1.24 60ft. on the 210 pills. 358 ci, Stock engine management system tunes speed density by Sean.

I think its possible to hang, there is a good tem of guys that work at the shop and work on the car.I hadnt seen the car since a week or 2 after the wreck. I did see the holeshots however..

and I didnt know it went those times..
I dug this on ls2
60' 1.305
330 3.750
330 MPH 94.14

1/8 5.744
1/8MPH 121.42

One way to find out is bring it...

i'm not matt, i've been mistaken for whoever that is twice now. my name is James. i saw this car run the night it wrecked a while back. it's got balls, but not enough to run with the big boys.

"James"

Is it just a coincidence that you have the same name on ls2, your selling all the same shit, and your being a bitch. :jest:

The car has an iron block in it.

i've never been on ls2... :confused: don't have a bad attitude just because the car will always be more than a half second slower than the big boys. nitrous just isn't the way to go with these motors.

i've never been on ls2... :confused: don't have a bad attitude just because the car will always be more than a half second slower than the big boys. nitrous just isn't the way to go with these motors.

you'll be proven wrong...

And if he can make 1100 hp or better and at 2800lbs yes he can compete...What does Billy GLidden weigh in at to run with the PRo 5.0 boys? My point exactly!

Mike

the problem is pushing water not making power

the problem is pushing water not making power

I bet it can be done...He's got one of the best engine builders behind him...LME.

Mike

pushing water??

I think the nitrous cars has the capability to hang with the turbo cars. Look at ARE's silver camaro running 8.50's like almost 3 years ago. The LSX scene has evolved greatly since then. I'm not saying it would be easy to do, but big cubes, killer heads, high rpms, light car and tons of nitrous will do it.

v6...i guarantee that that black ss wont even run within .3 of any of the top turbo cars by the end of this year. not with the setup it has now for sure. is billy glidden's car a tube car or stock chasis car?

nobody said it would be with this setup matt...

I thought the question was, Can a NOS motored LS1 car compete in the EFI series Outlaw class? Unless I've missed something, the fastest LS1/Lt1 turbo cars haven't run in the 7's yet. That being the case, I am convinced a 427 C5 NOS car weighing 2800 lbs should be able to compete. I don't think so Todd,unless you're holing pistons every pass.

What will a C5R headed 358 solid roller make on motor,maybe 750 flywheel.Put a 400-500 shot on it and still comes up way short.

It's not going to hang with a 1700-1800hp 3100-3200 lb turbo car.I've discussed this at length with some experienced,smart racers and I don't see the nitrous car being competitive.

Are there even any Outlaw cars running nitrous anymore?

Sometimes the baddest car out there won't always win. Consistency is pretty critical with these cars. Whoever can keep it together on each pass will go the rounds.

The current engine is a 4-inch bore with a destroked crank to make 358cid. He also shifts at about 9000 rpm :D

If we pursue the N2O route with the car, it'll have a bigger motor and we will find a way to lose about 300 pounds.

Shouldnt be a problem getting it that light, let Sam and I get our hands on it, just keep Sean away!

v6...i guarantee that that black ss wont even run within .3 of any of the top turbo cars by the end of this year. not with the setup it has now for sure. is billy glidden's car a tube car or stock chasis car?
Hope you get rebanned quickly.

Hope you get rebanned quickly.
Tell us how you really feel!

todd i like to see your nos car that went 5.6 to the 1/8
we went 5.7 and nobody has gone faster than since then with a nos car

We have also been 5.70 @123 1/8 and 8.90 @153 1/4 with 1.32 60' foot.
That was also a LME engine 427 c.i.d. with HYDROLIC cam, stock computer, one of the early Beck sheet metal intakes with stock ported throttle body, Direct port nitrous jetted for 350 hp. The car weighed 3180 with driver. Click the link in my Sig for video of one of the several 8.90 passes.

I've been a 5.85 @ 121mph at 3500lbs, on a 350 shot (150 out of the hole, and build to 350 in 2 seconds). Had a 1.38 60ft on that pass.. Lets see.. My car 700lbs lighter... It would hook up and on the 350 out of the hole and build to 400 in a half second.. I'd say a 5.2x would be possible. But thats also factoring the 700lbs = 7 tenths, which I dont think would hold true, but it would put it down there with the big boys...

And hell guys.. I still have a little b/s motor.. 408ci, small solid roller, stock PCM, FAST Intake with a direct port. :eek:

A 2800#, low 400ci nitrous motor vs a 3100#, 106mm'd, whatever size motor you want with a good Co2 controller.

This sounds like the NMRA's SSO rules a few years ago when they didn't realize the potential of the turbo cars. After the first year, they found out REAL fast.

How many turbo cars are being built for this class?

A 2800#, low 400ci nitrous motor vs a 3100#, 106mm'd, whatever size motor you want with a good Co2 controller.

This sounds like the NMRA's SSO rules a few years ago when they didn't realize the potential of the turbo cars. After the first year, they found out REAL fast.

How many turbo cars are being built for this class?

Thats exactly what i was thinking......

How many turbo cars are being built for this class?

The true question would be, how many nitrous cars are being built for this class, which may not be any. possibly 1 out there?

Kinda what I am thinking too. First, it's damn difficult to get an f-body to 2800 pounds even with a 130-pound driver. Second, it will be hard to amke the kind of power on the bottle needed to win with some degree of reliability. :(

Kinda what I am thinking too. First, it's damn difficult to get an f-body to 2800 pounds even with a 130-pound driver. Second, it will be hard to amke the kind of power on the bottle needed to win with some degree of reliability. :(
Another thing to consider is the turbo cars that are competing now are just scratching the surface of their potential.

There are probably 6 more Outlaw turbo car's that will be up and running in the next several months.

I'm not an expert but I don't see a nitrous gen 3 keeping up with the turbo car's anymore.

Kinda what I am thinking too. First, it's damn difficult to get an f-body to 2800 pounds even with a 130-pound driver. Second, it will be hard to amke the kind of power on the bottle needed to win with some degree of reliability. :(

With some exotic parts it can happen. I just dont think we have anyone serious enough out there with deep enough pockets to do it with.

Bruno trans setups or Lenkos can be a cool way to go...Look at the SAM car...No one else is running a Jericho trans!

Mike

So it's pretty much agreed that the turbo cars will be at an advantage in the class it seems, but what COULD you do to even it out? Or would this be a class that people just realize that it wouldn't be a benefit to run a nitrous car.

A first gen sbc with dope doesnt have a chance with the turbo guys much less the LS1 based motors.

Evening the field is a big can of worms.
We are set in the rules for ths year.

nitrous cars seem to get down teh track more consistently. and last time i checked, i would rather go more rounds, then have the best ET/MPH of the event. :)

but are consistent 8.50's good enough to beat out a 8.0x-8.30 varying car? i think that'd be the big question. how "good" on the tree are the turbo guys :) don't think i'm gonna get 'em by .2 cause i know there i some good drivers on this board

We have a failure to communicate here. The EFI Outlaw turbo cars are running low 8s. High 7s and low 8s are very achievable by NOS C5 4xx cid cars. But I agree that, as is the case in the Edelbrock series, turbo cars will run faster than NOS cars.nitrous cars seem to get down teh track more consistently. and last time i checked, i would rather go more rounds, then have the best ET/MPH of the event. :)

What kind of engine management system is he running to spin to 9k?

Is it still a wet sump?

stock engine management

It has a scavenge pump setup on it

stock engine management

It has a scavenge pump setup on it

I thought the stock computer could only go to 8k rpm? :confused:

Yea.....how does a stock PCM work at 9000 RPM??

very poorly or not at all.Yea.....how does a stock PCM work at 9000 RPM??

very poorly or not at all.

Yeah, from my understanding it'll only go to 8k rpm, and then if you try to go above that, it'll go into stupid mode and run like ass and the tune will be all off and shit. But then again, I don't even know if you can go over that, cuz I thought that ls1edit wouldn't let you set a rev limiter over 8k, so wouldn't you bang off the limiter? That's just what i've heard, never tried settin the limiter that high, and obviously never tried spinnin my car over 8k, so i'm not sure if any of it is true, like I said, just what i've heard.

My bad, he is shifting at about 8k. I know he is running speed density though (no MAF).

The factory crank pick up gets cranky above 8800 rpm on a test stand. We have a replacement wheel that tested to 10,000 rpm with strong signal.


Kurt

Kurt,
So, has your testing revealed that the stock PCM can manage 9-10,000 rpm, but the crank pickup is the weak link and cannot?The factory crank pick up gets cranky above 8800 rpm on a test stand. We have a replacement wheel that tested to 10,000 rpm with strong signal.


Kurt

Kurt always has all the tricks up his sleeve ;)

The spin testing was on the stock wheel and pickup. We are using the BS3 controller. The factory ecu might work, we have never tried that.
My engine we call Lisa Marie has a stock wheel on the crank with a BS3. It is in the car now with plans for a 8500rpm shift point. If it goes well we will try 9000rpm.

KurtKurt,
So, has your testing revealed that the stock PCM can manage 9-10,000 rpm, but the crank pickup is the weak link and cannot?

No tricks....testing limits. Otherwise known as breaking stuff!!

KurtKurt always has all the tricks up his sleeve ;)

No tricks....testing limits. Otherwise known as breaking stuff!!

Kurt
Now that is something I can relate to :D

incredible! 9K rpms!