Generation IV Internal Engine - What's the Real Deal with Sleeved Blocks?

Okay, what's the real deal with sleeved blocks?

I am trying to decide on the right setup. Some folks say they leak coolant. Some folks say they are fantastic. Some say they don't square up. Some say they won't last for my application. Dry or wet sleeve? The wet sleeve may leak, but the dry sleeve may have cooling issues.

WTF! How do you decide? The engine is for a street-legal car, but will go to the road course frequently...maybe 10-20 percent of the time.

I would love to hear from past and present sleeved-block owners...
Success stories...especially about dependability and miles driven, and
Horror stories...why would you never do it again?

I have the coin for a sleeved block, but not a C5R setup. Here's what I am thinking for the engine:

Goal: 7500 rpm and 600-700 crank hp and 550-600 ft/lbs
Forged LS2 402 (4x4), 434 (4.155x4 sleeved), or 443 (4.200x4 sleeved)
Solid roller, ARE dry sump, adjustable shaft rockers, BigStuff3
Long-stem valves for bigger springs with Ti intake valves
AFR 225 or All Pro with 72cc chambers, FAST 90 manifold and T/B
11.0 compression with 91 octane (I live at 5,000' elevation)
Streetable cam for the 402: 242/248 .646"/.653" 112 overlap 110 cen
Cams for larger ci setups not calculated.

Please feel free to email me with your thoughts, as well.

Thanks,

Mmm...Ultima.

Sleeving blocks is highly dependent on the skill of the sleever. Sleeved blocks straight from the source (Steve Demarjin who designed the sleeve...I think I butchered his last name) are the best way to go. I haven't heard of any problems with ones that he's done. The problems I've seen are with other shops (MTI, etc.).

That is a crazy amount of horsepower you are shooting for. Are you having a shop build the engine or are you going to do it? There are a number of competent builders who can get you in the mid 500's at the wheels with little issue. Mikey @ Rapid Motorsports (site sponsor) has gotten that number out of a 402 LS2 block.

It sounds like you are dropping a lot of money on this project- I'd enlist the help of a good engine builder as it'll be well worth it to avoid troubles and deal with troubles when they arise.

Also, no need for anything other than a tuned stock PCM. It is better than 99% of all the standalone systems out there.

Ben

Okay, what's the real deal with sleeved blocks?

I am trying to decide on the right setup. Some folks say they leak coolant. Some folks say they are fantastic. Some say they don't square up. Some say they won't last for my application. Dry or wet sleeve? The wet sleeve may leak, but the dry sleeve may have cooling issues.

WTF! How do you decide? The engine is for a street-legal car, but will go to the road course frequently...maybe 10-20 percent of the time.

I would love to hear from past and present sleeved-block owners...
Success stories...especially about dependability and miles driven, and
Horror stories...why would you never do it again?

I have the coin for a sleeved block, but not a C5R setup. Here's what I am thinking for the engine:

Goal: 7500 rpm and 600-700 crank hp and 550-600 ft/lbs
Forged LS2 402 (4x4), 434 (4.155x4 sleeved), or 443 (4.200x4 sleeved)
Solid roller, ARE dry sump, adjustable shaft rockers, BigStuff3
Long-stem valves for bigger springs with Ti intake valves
AFR 225 or All Pro with 72cc chambers, FAST 90 manifold and T/B
11.0 compression with 91 octane (I live at 5,000' elevation)
Streetable cam for the 402: 242/248 .646"/.653" 112 overlap 110 cen
Cams for larger ci setups not calculated.

Please feel free to email me with your thoughts, as well.

Thanks,

Mmm...Ultima.

Sleeving blocks is highly dependent on the skill of the sleever. Sleeved blocks straight from the source (Steve Demarjin who designed the sleeve...I think I butchered his last name) are the best way to go. I haven't heard of any problems with ones that he's done. The problems I've seen are with other shops (MTI, etc.).

That is a crazy amount of horsepower you are shooting for. Are you having a shop build the engine or are you going to do it? There are a number of competent builders who can get you in the mid 500's at the wheels with little issue. Mikey @ Rapid Motorsports (site sponsor) has gotten that number out of a 402 LS2 block.

It sounds like you are dropping a lot of money on this project- I'd enlist the help of a good engine builder as it'll be well worth it to avoid troubles and deal with troubles when they arise.

Also, no need for anything other than a tuned stock PCM. It is better than 99% of all the standalone systems out there.

BenYes, they are delicious! Okay, good advice. If I can get a consensus on the quality of wet-sleeved blocks, I will prolly go for it with one of the prominent shops.

Correct me if I am wrong, but a mid-500 car at the wheels is prolly a low- to mid-600 at the crank, which is exactly what I am shooting for (maybe a little more). And yes, I will have a shop build it. No way would I try to build this engine. I don't have the experience and I can only spend the coin once. By the time I am done, I should have about the same amount in it as a new Zo6, but it will dominate!

Ben, I appreciate your observations and comments. But, please keep in mind that I want to learn as much as I can about sleeved blocks in this thread. BTW, I agree about the PCM. I guess I could even use an LS1 box. Looking into EFILive. I like the dashboard in that. It would save installing separate instruments, since I am going to put an "in-car PC" in there anyway.

Thanks, Ben. If anyone has questions about the GTR, please PM or email me.

Honestly if you're gonna race a lot...you might as well do whatever you can do to scrap up enough coin for a C5R block. Really.

Honestly if you're gonna race a lot...you might as well do whatever you can do to scrap up enough coin for a C5R block. Really.That's what I am trying to determine. If there are enough confident responses to this thread from sleeved-block owners, I will go with a sleeved block. Otherwise, since a C5R block is not in the budget, I will go with the 402. Have you had the opportunity to put many miles on a C5R or sleeved block?

Thanks,

I had two sleeves put in my motor. They were put in dry i had no cooling problems but i did have a sleeve fall and it messed up a good piston as well as the head. I think in anytype of racing application IORN is the way to go. Although the Sleeves that were from the factory did hold up and a C5R would be awsome, as well as with a sleeved block you are lighter than iorn so its really a toss up... Both have there advantages and disadvantages. Hope this helps

I've owned two dry-sleeve MTI engines.

First one was an all-bore 382ci with a factory crank. First LS1 all-bore in existence. I drove that engine pretty hard for about a year and sold it to a guy that put it into his daily driver Corvette. Last I heard, he put around 60K miles on it without any issues.

Second one was a 434ci LS6. 525 rwhp. The engine ran great, but something freak happened and it threw a rod through the side of the block. Clean break on the rod, probably a material failure. MTI replaced it under warranty and put one of their newer dry-sleeve 427ci LS6 engines in the car and I sold the car. The current owner still daily-drives that car, its been over 2 years now. Not sure on the mileage he put on it since then, but I know it was over 10K last time I checked.

The LS2 sleeved engines look pretty solid, since the LS2 blocks have alot more material still left around the cylinders after removing the factory ones.

Talk to Pecos or Brian @ LME >>>> they should be able to answer your questions.

I had two sleeves put in my motor. They were put in dry i had no cooling problems but i did have a sleeve fall and it messed up a good piston as well as the head. I think in anytype of racing application IORN is the way to go. Although the Sleeves that were from the factory did hold up and a C5R would be awsome, as well as with a sleeved block you are lighter than iorn so its really a toss up... Both have there advantages and disadvantages. Hope this helpsAgreed, iron is stronger. However, an untouched LS2 aluminum block should be good to 800 crank HP; possibly more with sleeves.

So the engine you had, it had only two of eight with sleeves? The other six were factory? How did that come about? What kind of block and what bore? What car was it in? I presume you were doing track days with it?

Thanks RedHatRdRacer,

I've owned two dry-sleeve MTI engines.

First one was an all-bore 382ci with a factory crank. First LS1 all-bore in existence. I drove that engine pretty hard for about a year and sold it to a guy that put it into his daily driver Corvette. Last I heard, he put around 60K miles on it without any issues.

Second one was a 434ci LS6. 525 rwhp. The engine ran great, but something freak happened and it threw a rod through the side of the block. Clean break on the rod, probably a material failure. MTI replaced it under warranty and put one of their newer dry-sleeve 427ci LS6 engines in the car and I sold the car. The current owner still daily-drives that car, its been over 2 years now. Not sure on the mileage he put on it since then, but I know it was over 10K last time I checked.

The LS2 sleeved engines look pretty solid, since the LS2 blocks have alot more material still left around the cylinders after removing the factory ones.All-in-all then, it sounds like a good experience for you and the subsequent owners (regarding the sleeves anyway). Good of MTI to step up. What engine do you have now?

Thanks Nine Ball,

Talk to Pecos or Brian @ LME >>>> they should be able to answer your questions.Thanks, DopeFedZ. I will do that. Right now, I am just trying to hear from those that have owned a sleeved block. Not to say that companies that sell these are biased. That's one of the reasons for this thread. Some of the engine builders that I have spoken with won't build any engine using sleeves. Some builders swear by them. So I am trying to learn, from those that have gone before me, if there's any pattern with the successes or failures.

Wait on the LS7 bare block!!

Wait on the LS7 bare block!!I know! It's killing me! Is it August yet? We'll see what the price is. Don't want to discuss that too much in this thread, but I think the best guess is $15k retail (maybe $13k street) for the crate. The raw block should be around $4k. Nothing to do but wait and see.

Is this Ultima GTR fully your creation? I've never heard of it before.

It is a very slick car.

http://www.ihp.com/GTR/GTR.html

Wow, that would be a blast with this kind of power to boot.

well holy crap, it's cheap too. not cheap-cheap, but a lot less expensive than I would have guessed.

What an awesome car

Is this Ultima GTR fully your creation? I've never heard of it before.I wish! If I could make a living doing nothing but working on the Ultima GTR... http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/rock.gif

If you have been to some track days, maybe you have seen the Radical. Here's the Radical site. (http://www.radicalwest.com/) I was browsing the links page and found Ultima. I was thinking about getting a Radical. It's street-legal in Europe, but not the USA. The Ultima is. Here's the Ultima site. (http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/)

The Ultima GTR has recently set some world speed records on DOT tires; 0-100-0 in 9.8 seconds and 1.176 on the 200' skidpad. It's just the most awesome performing car you can own, except for the McLaren F1...and those are WAY out of my budget.

You can build an Ultima for as little as $65k. Mine will come in a little above that, but it will totally dominate the street and the track. What's nice about the GTR is...you drive to the track-day event. You go out and lap Porsche "Cup" cars, Vettes, Vipers, Lambos, Ferraris, etc. Then, you drive home. Do all that with a street-legal car that you build yourself for way less than the price of a vanilla 911.

See that? I said this thread was for learning about sleeved blocks and, as soon as you mention the Ultima, I start spewing... Well, I have been waiting to get this car for about 1.5 years. It's finally on it's way and I should have it completed by the end of the year. Here's every bookmark I have saved (http://www.ihp.com/ultima/Ultima-Bookmark.html)over the last 1.5 years regarding every aspect of the Ultima. I am also hosting one of the national meetings (http://www.ihp.com/ultima/Reno-2005-Agenda.pdf), if you might be interested in going for a ride. Enjoy!

I've read their entire website.

I'd love to see, "topgear" do an episode on this car too. wow.

Congradulations, you have the best handling car in the world, from what i've read. I like how they use Chevy engines. Can't beat the whore that Chevy is in the V8 world.

You should post up pics, and more info in the offtopic area. I'd love to know more about it. Are you the first to do a LSx drop in? shit man, patent that, and sell LSx engines built for the thing.

I've read their entire website.

I'd love to see, "topgear" do an episode on this car too. wow.

Congradulations, you have the best handling car in the world, from what i've read. I like how they use Chevy engines. Can't beat the whore that Chevy is in the V8 world.

You should post up pics, and more info in the offtopic area. I'd love to know more about it. Are you the first to do a LSx drop in? shit man, patent that, and sell LSx engines built for the thing.Ha! Well, it's definitely one of the best with DOT tires on the road...don't know about "the world" Ha-ha!

Unfortunately, it's not patentable that way. Others have gone before me. If you take a look at the bookmarks that I posted above, there's a "Builder's Sites" section that you can browse. One guy in Canada put a BMW V12 in. Another guy put a TT Chevy and made 1300 hp. Totally sick. He backed off at 229 mph in 5th...with a six-speed box. Anyway, the links I posted will get you to every bit of info I have on the Ultima.

So, about those sleeved blocks...

I sold the car that had the sleeved strokers about 3 years ago. Latest project car (the '69) has a supercharged 348ci LS6 in it, no need for sleeves. The technology involved with them has gotten better over the years though, and I'd have no problem purchasing another sleeved engine from a reputable builder.

Tony

I sold the car that had the sleeved strokers about 3 years ago. Latest project car (the '69) has a supercharged 348ci LS6 in it, no need for sleeves. The technology involved with them has gotten better over the years though, and I'd have no problem purchasing another sleeved engine from a reputable builder.

TonyThanks, Tony. BTW, cool cars. Saw your site. Sweet '69 Camaro.

If I'm reading this correct, you're looking for about 550rwhp. The 2 higher end motors you listed are overkill for this. Solid roller 434 or 443 will make WAY more than 550rwhp if done right. Well over 600rwhp I'd say too.

Hell, realize that the nastiest solid roller stock displacement (~346ci) motors have made well over 500rwhp. I think 520rwhp from Futura Motorsports?

I think a solid roller 402 would do ya fine. No sleeve worries, and enough cubes to get the job done with a solid roller and your rev limit of 7500.

Or just wait, and pick up and LS7, throw a cam in it and make 550rwhp too. That engine is already set up the way you want, it seems - even has dry sump. Given the fact that it will probably cost in the really low teens, and be 95% ready to go, it's probably a performance bargain.

Love Ultimas. Someday I'll build one.


Dope

If I'm reading this correct, you're looking for about 550rwhp. The 2 higher end motors you listed are overkill for this. Solid roller 434 or 443 will make WAY more than 550rwhp if done right. Well over 600rwhp I'd say too.

Hell, realize that the nastiest solid roller stock displacement (~346ci) motors have made well over 500rwhp. I think 520rwhp from Futura Motorsports?

I think a solid roller 402 would do ya fine. No sleeve worries, and enough cubes to get the job done with a solid roller and your rev limit of 7500.

Or just wait, and pick up and LS7, throw a cam in it and make 550rwhp too. That engine is already set up the way you want, it seems - even has dry sump. Given the fact that it will probably cost in the really low teens, and be 95% ready to go, it's probably a performance bargain.

Love Ultimas. Someday I'll build one.

DopeThanks, Dope. Yeah, that LS7 is going to be sweet. From what it sounds like, making that into a solid roller with a cam...maybe some porting, should put it well into the high 500 range. We'll have to see what my timeframe is. That might work out, if GM releases the crate.

I have been in contact with the PR department at GM. They are saying the crate will be out with the car in August. If so, I am all over it!

Otherwise, it's probably going to be a 402 or bigger sleeved. Most engine builders I have talked to are a little apprehensive of the rpm with a stroker. Maybe a sleeved block with a forged 3.622 strokeis safer (less rod angle and piston acceleration).

After all, this can't be an engine I rebuild every 5k miles. Thanks for the input. BTW, have you owned a sleeved block?

I don't understand your car. As a street car, the ARE dry sump would interfer with the A/C. And a rock in the belt would kill the oil pressure and presumably the engine.

A strong cam, some head work, headers, etc. On an LS7 would probably meet your goals on an LS7 for the least cost. If building on another base, an Austrailan company has a 3-stage dry sump using a stock mounted pump.

You could also build an all aluminum SBC with Areo 4-valve heads to hit those number for fewer $$$.

I don't understand your car. As a street car, the ARE dry sump would interfer with the A/C. And a rock in the belt would kill the oil pressure and presumably the engine.

A strong cam, some head work, headers, etc. On an LS7 would probably meet your goals on an LS7 for the least cost. If building on another base, an Austrailan company has a 3-stage dry sump using a stock mounted pump.

You could also build an all aluminum SBC with Areo 4-valve heads to hit those number for fewer $$$.Not sure why because I have never owned one, but it's my understanding that dry-sump systems are very dependable. In fact, some would say more so than internal. The location won't be an issue and it will probably have a separate belt. As far as rocks doing damage, this car is not for the Baja 1000, hill-climbs, or the Rubicon Trail, :) so I am not too concerned about rocks.

For the $$$, ARE has an excellent package. They are race-tested on LSx race engines in the most prominent series events. However, I am always open to considering other options, as I have not purchased the engine yet.

LS7 - It's a waiting game:
IF the engine is available, and
IF the price is right, and
IF they are actually available, and
IF my car isn't ready before the availability date...
I could end up with one.
Sweet!

On the other hand, it might be possible to make a more suitable package with a 402(+) ci.

IIRC, I spoke with someone at Aero a few months ago. I seem to recall that the heads were between $6-7k? Regardless, I would need to see a dozen folks that have run with those heads for many, many thousands of miles before I would consider them.

DavidNJ, do you have any experience with sleeved blocks? I am less concerned about dependability than when I started this thread. I have receivd a number of PMs and posts here that are starting to make be believe in them.

Thanks,

No, I have not owned a sleeved block. Heard enough horror stories to stay away :)

My plans going to be for an LS7 swap in a year or two if they are cheap enough. If not, 402 LS2.

Dope

After nearly two years of "challenges" going to a 427 displacement here are a couple suggestions...

First, go with a very reputable engine builder. Most of these guy don't advertise 'cause they don't need to. Do your research and NO NOT buy into the internet hype.

Second...after two MTI sleeved engines dropped at initial startup. I went with a C5-R block. (However, that engine is being completely rebuilt by another shop due to poor MTI workmanship issues.) I would never consider a sleeved application (wet or dry). Why spend big bucks on a performance engine and always wonder if the sleeve is holding up.

Good luck!!!

No, I have not owned a sleeved block. Heard enough horror stories to stay away :)

My plans going to be for an LS7 swap in a year or two if they are cheap enough. If not, 402 LS2.

DopeI understand. Thanks for the info...and good luck with your install.

After nearly two years of "challenges" going to a 427 displacement here are a couple suggestions...

First, go with a very reputable engine builder. Most of these guy don't advertise 'cause they don't need to. Do your research and NO NOT buy into the internet hype.

Second...after two MTI sleeved engines dropped at initial startup. I went with a C5-R block. (However, that engine is being completely rebuilt by another shop due to poor MTI workmanship issues.) I would never consider a sleeved application (wet or dry). Why spend big bucks on a performance engine and always wonder if the sleeve is holding up.

Good luck!!!Thanks! LOL, yes...Internet hype. Well, it sounds like you won't be buying your next block sleeved...from anyone! That would be enough to put me off. Sounds like you have some very good reasons.

The next poll I am going to take, of the engine builders, is to see if any of them have a 100 percent success rate with sleeved blocks. I will post my findings...

LS7 availability should be before the end of the year, and maybe as soon as August. MSRP is $15k (from Dave Hill) so the street price should be under $12k. LS7 intakes, with their new port shape, should outflow any cathedral shaped ports.

Racing dry sumps (oval track) do loose their belts every now and then. I believe most dry sump street cars (Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, LS7) have their pumps internal).

LS7 availability should be before the end of the year, and maybe as soon as August. MSRP is $15k (from Dave Hill) so the street price should be under $12k. LS7 intakes, with their new port shape, should outflow any cathedral shaped ports.

Racing dry sumps (oval track) do loose their belts every now and then. I believe most dry sump street cars (Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, LS7) have their pumps internal).Regarding the LS7, yes, that seems to be the accepted value and delivery schedule.

LS7 pump is crank-mounted externally. Don't know about the others. I don't have first-hand experience with dry-sumps. But, my guess is that a very high percentage of racecars are dry-sump. I am sure it happens, but I just don't hear of cars that DNF due to a dry-sump belt coming off, or pump failures.

well holy crap, it's cheap too. not cheap-cheap, but a lot less expensive than I would have guessed.

What an awesome car

$29,436.78 american dollars is not cheap for a rolling chasis with no interior, engine or Transmision. (I don't think that even includes suspension) But i would love to have the money to put one of them together, I guess considering that is is a Street legal Prototype class car and that it will be faster and cost less than a viper, it is pretty cheap. I'm personally waiting on a GTM. The new mold looks wicked and it is going to cost a lot less than Ultima.

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/images/update0205/4226.jpg

Throw in a 408 LS2, Porche Transaxle, Suspension components and the Cost for the Chasis and you have a 2500 give or take Street monster for about $40,000 to $50,000.

Builder, Nice looking car, I'm a bit of a book worm and though I don't post much I read a lot. I personally think that If you are going for dependability I would stay with a 408' with 225cc AFR heads and a good cam, that should get you over 550rwhp. The issue if you can call it that is that, wil be that the torque will be around 480-500 to the wheels. But that will make a very reliable combo (as reliable as built engines get ;) ) otherwise if reliability is a must CR5 is your number or wait to see how the LS7 fares.

$29,436.78 american dollars is not cheap for a rolling chasis with no interior, engine or Transmision. (I don't think that even includes suspension) But i would love to have the money to put one of them together, I guess considering that is is a Street legal Prototype class car and that it will be faster and cost less than a viper, it is pretty cheap. I'm personally waiting on a GTM. The new mold looks wicked and it is going to cost a lot less than Ultima.

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/images/update0205/4226.jpg

Throw in a 408 LS2, Porche Transaxle, Suspension components and the Cost for the Chasis and you have a 2500 give or take Street monster for about $40,000 to $50,000.

Builder, Nice looking car, I'm a bit of a book worm and though I don't post much I read a lot. I personally think that If you are going for dependability I would stay with a 408' with 225cc AFR heads and a good cam, that should get you over 550rwhp. The issue if you can call it that is that, wil be that the torque will be around 480-500 to the wheels. But that will make a very reliable combo (as reliable as built engines get ;) ) otherwise if reliability is a must CR5 is your number or wait to see how the LS7 fares.Well, it's actually a little more than that. And, you still have to put it together (i.e. it's not a true roller). However, the Ultima is probably going to be lighter than the GTM. And, although Spartan by design, this is really a street-legal racecar with the goal of superior power-to-weight and the ability to put it to the pavement through the corners...the ultimate street-legal track-day car. The GTM is a cool setup. I have been watching that for a while, too.

I agree that the iron block is an excellent option, but I am definitely going aluminum...even if I have to use an EFI Dart SBC. My guess is that the LS7 will arrive in time. It looks like I don't NEED the engine until Sept/Oct.

I am not finished with my sleeve research. But, if the result is a decision against sleeves, I will go with a dry-sump, solid roller, all-forged LS2 and a stock-length stroke to turn 7,500 rpm with confidence. All that, if the LS7 is not available. If it is, wham-bam-thank-you-GM. I can make that a solid roller, cam it, and get some head work done (if needed).

Honestly, I am not sure I can handle much more than 500 rwhp in a 2,200# track car! A 3,600# car would have to have 818 rwhp to have the same ratio. I never thought I would say it, but that's bordering on too much (for me) in a street/track car.

If its to much for you then you can let me drive it for ya!

all you need to know about sleved blocks

Steve Demirjian President

Race Engine Development

Oceanside, Ca.

760-630-0450

race-engine-development@cox.net

If its to much for you then you can let me drive it for ya!There's always one in the crowd, isn't there. The right seat is as close as you would get my friend. ;)all you need to know about sleved blocks

Steve Demirjian President
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450

race-engine-development@cox.net Thanks, Jerami. I appreciate the contact info. I have their page bookmarked and have reviewed it a couple of times. Correct me if I am wrong. Steve is one of the patent co-owners, and as such, has a vested interest in selling sleeves. Therefore, his opinion might be a little biased towards the sleeved system.

However, Steve may be able to shed some light on the instances of "dropped sleeves" and the conditions under which they occur, so I will definitely have a conversation with him. I just want to make sure I have a basic understanding of the process and problems before that call.

I think what Jerami is saying is that if you want it done right and don't want to think about it again, have Steve sleeve the block.

I'm saving my pennies for a GTM, hopefully it'll be well into production (and available to all) by the time I get out of law school in 3 years. The Ultima would be great as well.
The GTM will be "limited" by the C5 suspension, but it works really really well and parts are widely available at good prices.

Ben

I had Mikey at Rapid Motorsports build me a LS2 402 and I love it. Running a LS2 402 you don't have to mess with resleeving it, just put a 4 inch crank in the LS2 block. I was worried about resleeving a block so that is why I went the 402 route. I would think that is your best option without going to a C5R block or waiting until the LS7 block is out.

I think what Jerami is saying is that if you want it done right and don't want to think about it again, have Steve sleeve the block.See that? There's that attorney's deductive reasoning kicking in. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_wink.gif Well, I can appreciate that. None-the-less, I still have to:

A) be prepared to speak intelligently with Steve
B) finish my due dilignence chatting with owners that have good, and not-so-good, experiences
C) consider the timeframe and the LS7 availability

If I were going to place an order next week, I would be on the phone to Steve today. But, I don't want to get too lathered up just yet. It's hard to describe how difficult it is to rein myself in with this project! I think I am going nuts waiting for it. It will be over two years that I have been drooling over this car by the time it's ready for the road.

The car is about three to four weeks from shipping, then four weeks from FOB factory to get here (ocean freight). Who knows how long to clear customs (they say one to two weeks). Then, I have to assemble it to the point it's ready for the engine, which is probably two months (+).

All in, I am looking at Sept/Oct before the engine is required. I will have decided who will be providing what by the time I turn the first bolt...because it's head-burried building at that point. I will place the order 30 days prior to needing it, but I want to have my options nailed down well before then. One thing I have learned in my years of building stuff; planning and scheduling is 80 percent of the work.I'm saving my pennies for a GTM, hopefully it'll be well into production (and available to all) by the time I get out of law school in 3 years. The Ultima would be great as well.
The GTM will be "limited" by the C5 suspension, but it works really really well and parts are widely available at good prices.

BenIt's possible that the GTM will be C6 or 7-based in three years. Who knows? Cars are evolving like computers. I am sure you will love the GTM. It should be very competitive on the track and quite the looker, too.

So, has anyone out there purchased a sleeved block from Steve? If so, please tell me about your experience and setup.

I had Mikey at Rapid Motorsports build me a LS2 402 and I love it. Running a LS2 402 you don't have to mess with resleeving it, just put a 4 inch crank in the LS2 block. I was worried about resleeving a block so that is why I went the 402 route. I would think that is your best option without going to a C5R block or waiting until the LS7 block is out.Speed, that's sound advice. Tell me a little more about your setup, if you would. Those are some great numbers in your sig. Through what drivetrain did you dyno? What C/R and octane do you get at the pump? Are you running boost, juice, or N/A for those numbers? To what RPM are you turning that mill? Do you have any experience with solid roller and/or dry-sump systems?

Thanks,

I've run two sleeved blocks in my 9 second race car. First one grenaded on a 300 shot of nitrous. Never had any dropped sleeve issues but didn't have all that many passes on it before it blew. The present motor just started to use coolant last season. It probably as 250 total passes on it and quite a few dyno runs. Would I re-sleeve again? No. Now knowing what I do about the LS2 block, I would opt for a solid roller 402. The LS2 is a very durable platform from which to work. I managed 553 rwhp from a 402 on pump gas and a hyd roller. Several others in the 520+ area. 600 rwhp is very possible with more compression and a larger cam. No one has stepped up yet looking for such an animal. I would also use the ARE dry sump with your GTR. Good stuff.

If you are using the Porsche G50, I might consider a shorter than stock stroke...3.50, may 3.25, maybe less. And then build the valvetrain for revs. Keeping the peak torque down and making the power with revs.

If you plan on many street miles, you may want to sacrifice some power for lower noise. A more muffled intake. Hydraulic lifters with some preload. Maybe a less violent cam.

Maybe an LS7 shortblock with de-stroked crank, AFR heads, etc.

I've run two sleeved blocks in my 9 second race car. First one grenaded on a 300 shot of nitrous. Never had any dropped sleeve issues but didn't have all that many passes on it before it blew. The present motor just started to use coolant last season. It probably as 250 total passes on it and quite a few dyno runs. Would I re-sleeve again? No. Now knowing what I do about the LS2 block, I would opt for a solid roller 402. The LS2 is a very durable platform from which to work. I managed 553 rwhp from a 402 on pump gas and a hyd roller. Several others in the 520+ area. 600 rwhp is very possible with more compression and a larger cam. No one has stepped up yet looking for such an animal. I would also use the ARE dry sump with your GTR. Good stuff.Yikes! Okay, I guess that's a couple of good reasons not to sleeve. Although, it sounds like you had moderate success with your second setup.

Was your second setup the hyd roller LS2 on pump gas that made 553 rwhp?

What compression? I am stuck with 91 octane around here.

Anything low- to mid-500 rwhp will definitely work for me. That puts fwhp at around 600, which is about the max I can expect. With the solid-roller 402 and an ARE dry-sump, would you care to take a wild guess at potential output?

The transaxle is geared to make 7,500 rpm the optimal shift point. Is that reasonable for a 402 solid roller with any sort of lifespan? The car will see a couple of track-days per month (maybe 300 miles) and an additional 300-500 street miles.

Thanks, Mikey.

If you are using the Porsche G50, I might consider a shorter than stock stroke...3.50, may 3.25, maybe less. And then build the valvetrain for revs. Keeping the peak torque down and making the power with revs.

If you plan on many street miles, you may want to sacrifice some power for lower noise. A more muffled intake. Hydraulic lifters with some preload. Maybe a less violent cam.

Maybe an LS7 shortblock with de-stroked crank, AFR heads, etc.Yes, an SBC 377 was the original plan, which, as you are probably aware, is a "de-stroked" 400. I imagine the same over-square geometry will work in the LS2 (or LS7 for that matter) to facilitate higher rpm and relocate the torque band. It's a G50/52 transaxle with first regeared and hardened.

The noise will be glorious! I plan on using electric cut-outs (!!!) so I can also use a descent muffler with some big weed-burners.

Speed, that's sound advice. Tell me a little more about your setup, if you would. Those are some great numbers in your sig. Through what drivetrain did you dyno? What C/R and octane do you get at the pump? Are you running boost, juice, or N/A for those numbers? To what RPM are you turning that mill? Do you have any experience with solid roller and/or dry-sump systems?

Thanks,Builder, here is the post from my 402 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309920. The CR is 11.5:1 and the engine was tuned on 93 octane pump gas. It is a N/A motor and I shift it at 6700 and the rev limiter is set at 7K. I do not have any experience with a solid roller or a dry-sump.

Builder, here is the post from my 402 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309920. The CR is 11.5:1 and the engine was tuned on 93 octane pump gas. It is a N/A motor and I shift it at 6700 and the rev limiter is set at 7K. I do not have any experience with a solid roller or a dry-sump.Sweet! I read that post. Awesome power and MPG! Must be a blast. Did you keep the GM PCM?

Sure wish we had 93/94 at the pump around here. In most cities, there's usually a couple of gas stations that have much higher octane at the pump (100 or 110). I have not found any around here, so I have to snag aviation low-lead whenever I can.

Nice job Mikey. Want to take a wild guess at power for this configuration? PM if you prefer...

Forged 402 LS2
91 Octane (-2cc pistons?)
Morel/Jesel Solid Roller
Shaft Adjustable Rockers
Dry-sump Oil System (ARE)
No emissions testing
FAST 90?
GM PCM (EFILive)?

N/A setup:
N2O setup with the juice on:
N2O setup with the juice off:

Thanks,

Did you keep the GM PCM?Yes, it is the factory LS1 PCM.

There's always one in the crowd, isn't there. The right seat is as close as you would get my friend. ;)Thanks, Jerami. I appreciate the contact info. I have their page bookmarked and have reviewed it a couple of times. Correct me if I am wrong. Steve is one of the patent co-owners, and as such, has a vested interest in selling sleeves. Therefore, his opinion might be a little biased towards the sleeved system.

However, Steve may be able to shed some light on the instances of "dropped sleeves" and the conditions under which they occur, so I will definitely have a conversation with him. I just want to make sure I have a basic understanding of the process and problems before that call.

steve doesnt have anything more or less vested in selling sleeves then any other sponsor here does selling there motors. steve doesnt work for darton, he is the co-developer and did most of the R&D on the sleeves. he knows what works and what doesnt. just because alot of shops offer sleeved motors doesnt mean they know how to do them correctly or even have the proper machinery to do it. blaming a problem on a motor that was improperly sleeved on the sleeve itself is like me blaming comp for destroying my motor because i installed the cam wrong.

i wouldnt even think of buying a sleeved motor from anyone other then steve himself.

Yes, it is the factory LS1 PCM.Thanks, Speed.steve doesnt have anything more or less vested in selling sleeves then any other sponsor here does selling there motors. steve doesnt work for darton, he is the co-developer and did most of the R&D on the sleeves. he knows what works and what doesnt. just because alot of shops offer sleeved motors doesnt mean they know how to do them correctly or even have the proper machinery to do it. blaming a problem on a motor that was improperly sleeved on the sleeve itself is like me blaming comp for destroying my motor because i installed the cam wrong.

i wouldnt even think of buying a sleeved motor from anyone other then steve himself.I am aware of that issue and agree with that line of thinking. If I decide to purchase a sleeved block (which is still very possible), Steve would be the first guy I would talk to.

At the bottom of post 38 (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2888564&postcount=38), I asked if anyone on this board has purchased a sleeved block from Steve. I have a couple of months before the decision is made, but nobody has stepped forward yet to say something like, "Yes, I have a 427 from XXX Motorsports in a sleeved block that was done by Steve. It's making XXX HP and torque and I run the the snot out of it every chance I get. I purchased about two years ago and have XX,XXX miles on it without ant major issues."

But, I'm in no hurry (even though I want to be) and it's only been a couple of days. So, we'll see what surfaces. If anyone knows someone with this kind of experience, please ask them post up.

I've had two sleeved blocks, a dry and a wet. The first dry sleeve setup dropped two sleeves and started using coolant. The second one (Darton sleeved) is using copious amounts of oil... though I cannot remove the heads from the equation... so to be fair, I cant swear its the shortblock.

Every vendor who jumped in early to the sleeve game had issues. Despite what folks say, even Steve Dmirjian had several failures before he worked out how the process needed to go. Unfortunately a few vendors took the ride with him too. I think Steve has it worked out OK now... but a simple fact remains...

For what Ive spent in transporting the car back and forth to/from warrantee work, extra parts, etc... I could have had a C5R block in the first place and never have been worrying about when the thing will fall apart. Lots of miles could have been put on the car enjoying it, etc.

Maybe when I finally get this engine working perfectly, I'll plop it in a Ultima GTR too. I like those cars :)

I've had two sleeved blocks, a dry and a wet. The first dry sleeve setup dropped two sleeves and started using coolant. The second one (Darton sleeved) is using copious amounts of oil... though I cannot remove the heads from the equation... so to be fair, I cant swear its the shortblock.

Every vendor who jumped in early to the sleeve game had issues. Despite what folks say, even Steve Dmirjian had several failures before he worked out how the process needed to go. Unfortunately a few vendors took the ride with him too. I think Steve has it worked out OK now... but a simple fact remains...

For what Ive spent in transporting the car back and forth to/from warrantee work, extra parts, etc... I could have had a C5R block in the first place and never have been worrying about when the thing will fall apart. Lots of miles could have been put on the car enjoying it, etc.

Maybe when I finally get this engine working perfectly, I'll plop it in a Ultima GTR too. I like those cars :)Hey, it would be great to have another Ultima owner in the club. Check this out, if you are interested in learning more about Ultima. (http://www.markkoch.net/ultima/2005ClubMeet.asp) It's our second meeting.

Sounds like you have had some really unpleasant experiences with sleeves...even granting the benefit of the doubt to your existing setup.

With your knowledge and experience, and considering the process has been improved, would you purchase another sleeved setup?

Thanks,

I have a Cartek prepared Darton wet sleve 427, that is about 2 years old. That thing will run 10.30s on the strip all day long, and I can drive it any where. Ive had no problems with it what so ever. Thank John.

I've had two sleeved blocks, a dry and a wet. The first dry sleeve setup dropped two sleeves and started using coolant. The second one (Darton sleeved) is using copious amounts of oil... though I cannot remove the heads from the equation... so to be fair, I cant swear its the shortblock.

Every vendor who jumped in early to the sleeve game had issues. Despite what folks say, even Steve Dmirjian had several failures before he worked out how the process needed to go. Unfortunately a few vendors took the ride with him too. I think Steve has it worked out OK now... but a simple fact remains...

For what Ive spent in transporting the car back and forth to/from warrantee work, extra parts, etc... I could have had a C5R block in the first place and never have been worrying about when the thing will fall apart. Lots of miles could have been put on the car enjoying it, etc.

Maybe when I finally get this engine working perfectly, I'll plop it in a Ultima GTR too. I like those cars :)

you are correct, steve went through many blocks and different gaskets in the R&D process to get where he is at. however i dont believe he used the public for R&D (ala patriot), the bad blocks werent sold and buit upon. also most vendors dont have the proper attachments (coolant hoses) for there machinery to hold the tolerance needed for proper clearances. hence why some blocks are out of round, ect.

Steve does blocks for honda's and vipers and some of them are running upwards of 1000rwhp w/o issue.

FWIW steve has done alot of repairs and fixes of blocks that have come from other sponsors.

Builder, i live 30 minutes away from steve so i get to see all the machinery, blocks, sleeves, ect. i've also learned alot from him on why you here alot of problems with sleeves done by other vendors.

But remember, a block is just a block, even if you've got a top of the line c5r block if the builder doesnt know what he's doing and clearances are all out of wack, ect. the motor will still have problems.

I have a Cartek prepared Darton wet sleve 427, that is about 2 years old. That thing will run 10.30s on the strip all day long, and I can drive it any where. Ive had no problems with it what so ever. Thank John.That's great, John. Please tell me more about your setup, if you would.

What model car is it in?
What C/R and octane are you running?
How many miles have you logged?
Heads and manifold?
a 10.3 would put your RWHP at around 650?

Thanks,

That's great, John. Please tell me more about your setup, if you would.

What model car is it in?
What C/R and octane are you running?
How many miles have you logged?
Heads and manifold?
a 10.3 would put your RWHP at around 650?

Thanks,
Its a 2000 C5 COUPE WITH AN Rossler A4. Ls6 heads, TPIS modifed Oval intake with an Oval TB, CR is around 11 to 1 on pump gas. I proably have around 10,000 miles on this engine.

you are correct, steve went through many blocks and different gaskets in the R&D process to get where he is at. however i dont believe he used the public for R&D (ala patriot), the bad blocks werent sold and buit upon. also most vendors dont have the proper attachments (coolant hoses) for there machinery to hold the tolerance needed for proper clearances. hence why some blocks are out of round, ect.

Steve does blocks for honda's and vipers and some of them are running upwards of 1000rwhp w/o issue.

FWIW steve has done alot of repairs and fixes of blocks that have come from other sponsors.

Builder, i live 30 minutes away from steve so i get to see all the machinery, blocks, sleeves, ect. i've also learned alot from him on why you here alot of problems with sleeves done by other vendors.

But remember, a block is just a block, even if you've got a top of the line c5r block if the builder doesnt know what he's doing and clearances are all out of wack, ect. the motor will still have problems.Jeremi, your logic is sound. It would not be a good business move to use real customers as the test-bed for a new sleeving technology...without their consent. I have to believe that Steve wouldn't do that.

At this point, I've read enough to warrent placing a call to Steve to get his perspective. Perhaps he has this system down now and can state a clear definition as to the maximum capabilities in an endurance-type engine.

In the same way it's true that injectors should not exceed 80 percent duty cycle, I believe the engine should be constructed with the same reserves. I am not going for a maximum-effort engine. And, I think an over-square sleeved block would have an easier time reaching 7500 rpm than a 402 stroker.

I have to mention that I have been saving my pennies and working my a$$ off to afford this car and drivetrain. I can't afford to buy the engine twice. If there's a significantly greater than normal possibility (beyond that of any system pushed to 80 percent) that this setup will break, I can't go there. That said, I am still going to give it every consideration with an open mind when I speak with Steve.

Please keep the scenarios coming...

Its a 2000 C5 COUPE WITH AN Rossler A4. Ls6 heads, TPIS modifed Oval intake with an Oval TB, CR is around 11 to 1 on pump gas. I proably have around 10,000 miles on this engine.Nice! Glad to hear you are driving it like it should be driven.

What octane?
Have you taken her for a dyno tune?
Are you using a GM PCM?

Thanks,

hey Builder, very nice car by the way. are you a member of gassing station on piston heads? loads of ultima guys are, but cant remember seeing you on there. anyway nice project.

have you spoke to Brammo about their twin turbo unit? not sure about cost, but the kit/engines (not sure if they would do a kit, turbo, header, inlet, e'boxes) do look good. and you would easaly see way more BHP than your after. i would suggest you talk to American Speed but i dont dout you already have;-)

have you seen mark koch's turbo car (www.markkoch.net)? i think he is amimg for similar power level as you, but he's going FI on a pretty standard (for the time being) ls1.

anyway mate, keep us posted on what you go for.

Thanks Chris.

Builder, i live 30 minutes away from steve so i get to see all the machinery, blocks, sleeves, ect. i've also learned alot from him on why you here alot of problems with sleeves done by other vendors.

Is there a shop nearby to yourself and Steve there that you would recommend doing a shortblock R&R? In the case that I have to have Steve redo my setup, I'd like to drive the car down, and then have it taken apart there.

Chris

Nice! Glad to hear you are driving it like it should be driven.

What octane?
Have you taken her for a dyno tune?
Are you using a GM PCM?

Thanks,
I use Shell 94 Octane. Cartek done all of the tuning on a factory PCM. 530 rwhp, 511 rwt. Its a real blast on the street. Thanks John.

Hey Chris, PM sent...

hey Builder, very nice car by the way. are you a member of gassing station on piston heads? loads of ultima guys are, but cant remember seeing you on there. anyway nice project.Thank you. Yes, I am on that board.have you spoke to Brammo about their twin turbo unit? not sure about cost, but the kit/engines (not sure if they would do a kit, turbo, header, inlet, e'boxes) do look good. and you would easaly see way more BHP than your after. i would suggest you talk to American Speed but i dont dout you already have;-)Yes, I have spoken with Brammo...$50k. Correct, I don't really want 1300 horsepower in my 2200# street-legal car. The GTR will pull through 200 mph on 600 hp without breathing too hard. That's way fast. My top gear is really an overdrive gear to help with economy. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_devil.gif Gears 1-4 are designed for the track and will get me to 180 in a hurry. BTW, the driver of that TT car backed out of the throttle at 229 with another gear to go. Kurt said it was getting a little light.

I have spoken with American Speed. They have a very nice package for the GTR. But, I prefer the LSx series to the SBC, aluminum over iron (for the GTR), and EFI over carbs. Also, their pricing is a little steep for my $$$.have you seen mark koch's turbo car (www.markkoch.net (http://www.markkoch.net/))? Yes, it's running now, but I don't think it's on the road yet. Can't wait to go for a ride in that rocket.anyway mate, keep us posted on what you go for.Will do. BTW, I probably would not be this far along the Ultima path if not for the PistonHeads board. (plug) There are folks on that board that have had Ultima cars on the road for 5-6 years. If anyone reading this is interested in seeing what all of Europe and Great Britan is doing in high-performance cars, PistonHeads (http://www.pistonheads.com/) is the place. There's some cool stuff up there...and, quite a few LSx and SBC swaps (along with BMW, Ferrari swaps, etc.)

Regards,

I use Shell 94 Octane. Cartek done all of the tuning on a factory PCM. 530 rwhp, 511 rwt. Its a real blast on the street. Thanks John.Dang!!! That's right where I want to be. Except, we have this 91 octane crap for gas out here.

Does anyone use those cans of octane boost from the local parts store? I have seen that stuff on the shelf and wondered if it works. I may have to go with a slightly higher compression than 91 octane will allow. Is anyone running 91 at 11:1 C/R?

I am told that, on a solid roller, adjusting lash can be used to adjust valve events by as much as 8 degrees depending on cam and rockers. That could change the C/R a little, yes? Is it possible to have one lash setting for the track and high-octane (unavailable) fuel, then re-lash for the street and 91 octane? Sounds like a lot of work, but, if that's a workable deal...

also builder, im running 12.02 SCR and 8.45 DCR in my forged 346 w/ 91. took all the precautions to ward off detonation.

you can also run some torco or throw some 100 unleaded in the mix.

I have a Cartek prepared Darton wet sleve 427, that is about 2 years old. That thing will run 10.30s on the strip all day long, and I can drive it any where. Ive had no problems with it what so ever. Thank John.
John , Long time no talk , how's it going ? Glad to hear your Cartek beast is still running strong .

[QUOTE=9-SEC NA C5]John , Long time no talk , how's it going ? Glad to hear your Cartek beast is still running strong .[/QUOTE Hey Mike, good to hear from ya. Bonnie and I have been building a new house and finally got to move in about 2 weeks ago. Maybe now I can get busy on that SS. I am going to build a monster big cube wet sleve for it. I hope to have it going before the end of this season. See Ya John.

also builder, im running 12.02 SCR and 8.45 DCR in my forged 346 w/ 91. took all the precautions to ward off detonation.

you can also run some torco or throw some 100 unleaded in the mix.That's excellent. From what I have read, the DCR is the most important number. And the 8.45 is perfect for 91. Okay, maybe a little high.

What steps have you taken to ward off detonation and do you run Torco?

Thanks,

all you need to know about sleved blocks

Steve Demirjian President

Race Engine Development

Oceanside, Ca.

760-630-0450

race-engine-development@cox.net Steve and I had a nice conversation about Darton sleeves and the LSx series. Turns out Darton hasn't had any problems with any LSx blocks (coming out of their shop) for about 18 months! That's excellent in my book. If that's the case, I have no reservations about moving in that direction.

Steve suggested that a solid roller would require attention to the lash and other clearances. Lash should be set based on the block warmed up because the LS1/6 expands about 0.012 when warm. So, the lash (cold) should be set accordingly. It was also suggested that an engine heater might be appropriate, since the clearances are tight and it gets pretty cold at night. (He's right...it snowed here yesterday and was in the 20s last night) Even in the summer, a 90 degree day can have a 40 degree night.

I don't believe the sleeve issues exist anymore. Starting a new thread in my head: LS2 or LS7.