LC-1 and narrowband simulation
06-17-2005, 10:58 AM
#1
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LC-1 and narrowband simulation I asked this question in another thread and didn't really get a response. I'm fairly confident I'm not the only one who would like to know the answer, so here it goes...
I ordered the LC-1 and I'm trying to figure out how to set it up in place of the stock narrowband O2 (B2S1). In order to avoid throwing a code, I would like to have the Analog Out 1 signal, which is programed to simulate the narrowband readings, sent back to the PCM. My question is, could I use the connector from a stock O2 sensor to wire up the LC-1?
The idea I'm shooting for assumes there's a switch 12v source and a ground in the female side of the connection that could be used to power the LC-1 and avoid any DTC's. Then, all that's left to hook up (I believe) is the narrowband signal from the Analog Out 1. If anyone has any knowledge/ideas about setting something up like this, I'm very interested in what you have to say.
I ordered the LC-1 and I'm trying to figure out how to set it up in place of the stock narrowband O2 (B2S1). In order to avoid throwing a code, I would like to have the Analog Out 1 signal, which is programed to simulate the narrowband readings, sent back to the PCM. My question is, could I use the connector from a stock O2 sensor to wire up the LC-1?
The idea I'm shooting for assumes there's a switch 12v source and a ground in the female side of the connection that could be used to power the LC-1 and avoid any DTC's. Then, all that's left to hook up (I believe) is the narrowband signal from the Analog Out 1. If anyone has any knowledge/ideas about setting something up like this, I'm very interested in what you have to say.
06-17-2005, 12:51 PM
#3
This is what I'm planning on doing also. You can get the LC-1 manual off their web site, it has a section on how to set it up for the narrowband sim. As for switched 12V, one of the wires from the stock O2 connector has this. But I think you'll also have to run wires from the wideband sensor back to the LC-1 box.
My main concern is whether the simulated narrowband on one bank will be equivalent to the real one on the other bank - if they aren't, you'll get different fuel trims on each bank even though actual a/f might be the same. Since the analog output is programmable, I assume you could adjust for this if it happens.
As for the stock sensor heater being disconnected, I don't think it would set a code, since the PCM only detects this (I think) by the sensor taking too long to produce good readings. But, you could just disable that code if it comes up.
My main concern is whether the simulated narrowband on one bank will be equivalent to the real one on the other bank - if they aren't, you'll get different fuel trims on each bank even though actual a/f might be the same. Since the analog output is programmable, I assume you could adjust for this if it happens.
As for the stock sensor heater being disconnected, I don't think it would set a code, since the PCM only detects this (I think) by the sensor taking too long to produce good readings. But, you could just disable that code if it comes up.
06-17-2005, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by patSS/00
This is what I'm planning on doing also. You can get the LC-1 manual off their web site, it has a section on how to set it up for the narrowband sim. As for switched 12V, one of the wires from the stock O2 connector has this. But I think you'll also have to run wires from the wideband sensor back to the LC-1 box.
My main concern is whether the simulated narrowband on one bank will be equivalent to the real one on the other bank - if they aren't, you'll get different fuel trims on each bank even though actual a/f might be the same. Since the analog output is programmable, I assume you could adjust for this if it happens.
As for the stock sensor heater being disconnected, I don't think it would set a code, since the PCM only detects this (I think) by the sensor taking too long to produce good readings. But, you could just disable that code if it comes up.
My main concern is whether the simulated narrowband on one bank will be equivalent to the real one on the other bank - if they aren't, you'll get different fuel trims on each bank even though actual a/f might be the same. Since the analog output is programmable, I assume you could adjust for this if it happens.
As for the stock sensor heater being disconnected, I don't think it would set a code, since the PCM only detects this (I think) by the sensor taking too long to produce good readings. But, you could just disable that code if it comes up.
06-17-2005, 01:59 PM
#5
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
Being able to just unplug the WB like the stock narrowband would definitely be a plus as well. That way I can use it on my friend's car too.
06-17-2005, 02:35 PM
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That same friend of mine conveniently replaced an O2 a week or 2 ago and still has the old one. He has offered to let me lop off the end and see if I can do anything with it.
06-17-2005, 02:43 PM
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Now I may be wrong, but in my LC-1 instruction kit I thought it said to get the wideband sensor as far downstream in the exhaust system as possible to keep the engine heat from interfering with the readings. I had thought about trying to put a wideband in place of one of the factory ones, but decided against it due to the unkowns mentioned above and I wanted to make sure to get the most accurate readings I could. Just giving my .02 cents.
Let us know how it turns out.
Let us know how it turns out.
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06-17-2005, 02:52 PM
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http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...C-1_Manual.pdf
On CATALYTIC CONVERTER equipped vehicles:
Install the oxygen sensor’s bung upstream from the catalytic converter (a bung and plug is included in the LC-1 kit).
On CATALYTIC CONVERTER equipped vehicles:
Install the oxygen sensor’s bung upstream from the catalytic converter (a bung and plug is included in the LC-1 kit).
Last edited by SSpdDmon; 06-17-2005 at 03:12 PM.
06-17-2005, 02:59 PM
#9
Originally Posted by bowtieman81
Now I may be wrong, but in my LC-1 instruction kit I thought it said to get the wideband sensor as far downstream in the exhaust system as possible to keep the engine heat from interfering with the readings. I had thought about trying to put a wideband in place of one of the factory ones, but decided against it due to the unkowns mentioned above and I wanted to make sure to get the most accurate readings I could. Just giving my .02 cents.
Let us know how it turns out.
Let us know how it turns out.
06-17-2005, 04:32 PM
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Ah ha! Found this in a 99 C5 manual. It should be similar to our setup I would think. Anyone know how to read it and be able to tell me how to hook up the LC-1 in the stock location?
06-17-2005, 08:26 PM
#11
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
Ah ha! Found this in a 99 C5 manual. It should be similar to our setup I would think. Anyone know how to read it and be able to tell me how to hook up the LC-1 in the stock location?
06-18-2005, 10:43 PM
#13
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Use a aluminum case power resistor of the same value and wattage as the O2 heater. It won't burn out like a bulb, and you can fasten it to metal to dissipate the heat. You should be able to get one from Mouser, Digikey, or Allied.
06-19-2005, 04:04 PM
#14
Some ECUs look for a change in resistance with temp (current flow). They will thow a code if the resistance stays constant. I suspect this is part if gettign ready for OBDIII. I am working on full NB and WB simulators for OBDIII now.
That's why the lightbulb. The lightbulb's resistance goes up as it gets brighter/hotter. Same as the real heater.
If the LS1 ecu doesn't do this then you can just measure the heater resistance on the NB sensor and order a resistor to match.
That's why the lightbulb. The lightbulb's resistance goes up as it gets brighter/hotter. Same as the real heater.
If the LS1 ecu doesn't do this then you can just measure the heater resistance on the NB sensor and order a resistor to match.
06-20-2005, 11:52 AM
#15
After looking at sensor locations, I've decided that I'm going to use one of the after-cat locations, since the before-cat ones just don't have enough space, and also they're pointing up which you're not supposed to do with the w.b. sensor. (I don't have headers.) So this way the simulated n.b. output won't be as critical, since (I believe) only the front ones are used for closed-loop a/f setting by the PCM. Drawback is the readings won't be as accurate, but hopefully I can find some info on just how much the cat changes the a/f, and compensate in software.
Also have been unable to find just the o2 connectors, so going to order an extension cable and cut off one end.
Also have been unable to find just the o2 connectors, so going to order an extension cable and cut off one end.
06-20-2005, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by patSS/00
After looking at sensor locations, I've decided that I'm going to use one of the after-cat locations, since the before-cat ones just don't have enough space, and also they're pointing up which you're not supposed to do with the w.b. sensor. (I don't have headers.) So this way the simulated n.b. output won't be as critical, since (I believe) only the front ones are used for closed-loop a/f setting by the PCM. Drawback is the readings won't be as accurate, but hopefully I can find some info on just how much the cat changes the a/f, and compensate in software.
Also have been unable to find just the o2 connectors, so going to order an extension cable and cut off one end.
Also have been unable to find just the o2 connectors, so going to order an extension cable and cut off one end.
06-20-2005, 12:42 PM
#17
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
Good idea about going with the extensions. Shoulda thought of that one myself. However, I thought I read in the instructions you want to mount the sensor somewhere between 10:00 and 2:00 on the pipe if you can to avoid the condesation/moisture from damaging the sensor???
By the way I don't see how anyone could possibly get another sensor bung welded in front of the cats, there's no space in there to do anything.
06-24-2005, 10:45 AM
#18
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You can buy an 02 simulator and cut that up. Simply plug it in and cut the signal wire on the o2 simulator that way you do not cut up the factory connector.
Attach the output 0-1v narrowband to the cut wire. Now the computer is happy beacuse the heater circuit is still there and the 0-1v signal is still going to the factory computer. Alternatly you will need to cut the signal wire and feed it to the LC-1. Then move the sensor someplace out of the way and leave it there. On the vetter you place it just under the torque tube on top of the big metal plate!
We will be shortly selling remote displays for all of the innovative wideband systems, square key chain sized displays and round 2-1/16". So far we have had very good results with the LC-1 and LM-1.
www.DynotuneNitrous.com
Cheers
Dan
Attach the output 0-1v narrowband to the cut wire. Now the computer is happy beacuse the heater circuit is still there and the 0-1v signal is still going to the factory computer. Alternatly you will need to cut the signal wire and feed it to the LC-1. Then move the sensor someplace out of the way and leave it there. On the vetter you place it just under the torque tube on top of the big metal plate!
We will be shortly selling remote displays for all of the innovative wideband systems, square key chain sized displays and round 2-1/16". So far we have had very good results with the LC-1 and LM-1.
www.DynotuneNitrous.com
Cheers
Dan
06-24-2005, 11:18 AM
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Well, I'm halfway with this project. The only thing really left is the system ground (white) and an analog ground (green). I'm assuming these both go to the middle slot on the 3-pin orange plug? I have the 12v switch source, heater ground and NBO2 feeds wired to a stock connector (off an old O2 sensor that a friend donated) that will plug into the stock connection by the stock driver's side bung. The system ground, analog ground, and calibration wires are all that's left to connect. Please correct me if I'm wrong about connecting the white/green wires to the middle pin as I don't want to blow anything up tonight!
Originally Posted by Innovate
6. Connect the System Ground to where you will use the analog out signals. If you use the analog out signals as input for an ECU or data-logger, connect the system ground to the ground of the ECU or data-logger.
7. Optionally connect the analog out signals to their intended devices. Note: the Analog Ground should be connected to either the system ground or ECU/data-logger ground if used.
7. Optionally connect the analog out signals to their intended devices. Note: the Analog Ground should be connected to either the system ground or ECU/data-logger ground if used.
12-10-2005, 10:58 AM
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Yeah, Im dragging this old thread up.
I ran with LC-1 as 02 sim but the banks were about 5% different in fueling.
Has anyone else done this and can anyone comment on what is an acceptable difference in fuel trims between banks?
Now Im just running open loop all the time with efilive and commanding afr in table b3647 which works fine, but it never totally locks on to 14.63:1 due to IAT etc differences.
I ran with LC-1 as 02 sim but the banks were about 5% different in fueling.
Has anyone else done this and can anyone comment on what is an acceptable difference in fuel trims between banks?
Now Im just running open loop all the time with efilive and commanding afr in table b3647 which works fine, but it never totally locks on to 14.63:1 due to IAT etc differences.