Pontiac Firebird 1967-2002 - LS1 T/As ever run at the Nürburgring?

Just wondering what kind of times it would run. :)

I heard a guy in the army took his LS1 z28 around the ring, but he didnt post any times. Maybe when ls1.com comes back i can find out if he updated his post, dont hold your breathe though.

Josh

I have always wondered about this...

I heard a guy in the army took his LS1 z28 around the ring, but he didnt post any times. Maybe when ls1.com comes back i can find out if he updated his post, dont hold your breathe though.

Josh

Even that would be cool to know, but I think an LS1 WS6 would run different times than a Z28. Possibly even different than a non-WS6.

The T/As are heavier generally, aren't they? Plus different aerodynamics, especially on the WS6, could really affect things as well.

I know everyone says they are the same car, and in terms of power and underpinnings that might be correct, but the weight and aero differences would really stand out on a track like the 'ring. (I'm not making predections on who would beat who, just sayin' they most likely wouldn't be the same)

Any chances it would run near that of a C5 :burn:

I know that are probably different enough to warrant being specific about it. but that z28 is the closest thing I know of, that has run there. Maybe if we had a member in Europe that could look into this for us. I doubt that GM did any testing over there, b/c the f body wasnt sold world wide, and wasnt in LeMans racing. But maybe we will get lucky and some well todo Eurpean took a liking to 4th gen ws6 and could take a trip to Nurburg for us.

Lets Hope
Josh

Any chances it would run near that of a C5 :burn:

Haha, keep dreaming ;)

Just the fact alone that the Corvette has IRS gives it a HUGE advantage on the N-ring, being that the track really has no smooth surfaces anywhere. Next the Corvette has a much stiffer, and more balanced chassis, which gives it another huge advantage on any track.

An F-body might run times near a C4 with any luck... :punch:

Stiffer chassis? You sure you don't mean suspension?

How stiff is stiff? Again, I was informed, by a highly regarded sponsor here, about a 93 1LE Z28 that has been raced for 300K miles without SFCs and has no problems at all. (still have the PM)

He also pointed out that he was running faster than the Street Prepared guys (which is partial or full tube frame and big hp). In a car without SFCs.

These cars are apparently still laboring under the reputation of their predecessors. Plus, when you think about it, there's no other reason for a car this small, with aluminum rims and engine to be so heavy other than chassis bracing.

The IRS would likely be the big advantage. But don't underestimate the C4 either. The '84 was pulling over a G on stock rubber before being softened up a bit in '85. The Grans Sport and ZR-1s are most likely track monsters.


Either way, I'm hoping it would beat at least the Elise. That would be some nice bragging rights I think. There may be a lot of twisties, but there's a lot of straight lines too. Sometimes size really does matter. :D

Stiffer chassis? You sure you don't mean suspension?

Nope, I mean the chassis itself. If I remember right, the C5 has one of the stiffest chassis out there.


How stiff is stiff? Again, I was informed, by a highly regarded sponsor here, about a 93 1LE Z28 that has been raced for 300K miles without SFCs and has no problems at all. (still have the PM)
Thats not too surprising, but If you think about it, the F-body chassis is from the 80s, the C5 chassis is(was) GM's top of the line chassis, made in 1997, it should be stiffer.

He also pointed out that he was running faster than the Street Prepared guys (which is partial or full tube frame and big hp). In a car without SFCs.
Driver makes a huge difference.

These cars are apparently still laboring under the reputation of their predecessors. Plus, when you think about it, there's no other reason for a car this small, with aluminum rims and engine to be so heavy other than chassis bracing.
There not that small...

The IRS would likely be the big advantage. But don't underestimate the C4 either. The '84 was pulling over a G on stock rubber before being softened up a bit in '85. The Grans Sport and ZR-1s are most likely track monsters.

C4s are beasts (Ive driven one before), but I would assume that an LS1 F-body could come close to its track times.

Either way, I'm hoping it would beat at least the Elise. That would be some nice bragging rights I think. There may be a lot of twisties, but there's a lot of straight lines too. Sometimes size really does matter. :D
I dont know man, it would probably be close, I cant find any times for the Elise (non-Exige) on the 'ring.

There not that small...

The Nissan Sylvia is about the same size and is 2800lbs or so. With an iron block. (even though it is a 4 cylinder)

So that's 700lbs difference. That's far more substantial than 4 vs 8 cylinder. Both are manual RWD platforms.

So unless the Trans Am is carrying lead ballast somewhere, it's being put into a stiffer chassis. I remember reading on a camaro forum somewhere, back in like 03 or so, that someone had seen a 4th Gen cut in half and said that once he saw that, he realized where all the weight was going, and was quite impressed.


I dont know man, it would probably be close, I cant find any times for the Elise (non-Exige) on the 'ring.

Would be nice to see either way. Bigger really is better sometimes. :D

I know that are probably different enough to warrant being specific about it. but that z28 is the closest thing I know of, that has run there. Maybe if we had a member in Europe that could look into this for us. I doubt that GM did any testing over there, b/c the f body wasnt sold world wide, and wasnt in LeMans racing. But maybe we will get lucky and some well todo Eurpean took a liking to 4th gen ws6 and could take a trip to Nurburg for us.

Lets Hope
Josh

The F-body very much so was sold world wide.

The Nissan Sylvia is about the same size and is 2800lbs or so. With an iron block. (even though it is a 4 cylinder)
The silvia (or 240SX) is alot shorter, (177in. long opposed to 193in long) and is a few inches narrower too.

Also if I recall didnt have steel body pannels.

So that's 700lbs difference. That's far more substantial than 4 vs 8 cylinder. Both are manual RWD platforms.

Dont forget a beefier transmission for the F-bodies, the solid rear end (which Im not sure if it weighs more or less than a comparable IRS), exhaust components (much bigger than a 240SX's), and the wheels are bigger too.

Im going off on a limb here, but the 240sx's chassis might be aluminum too.


So unless the Trans Am is carrying lead ballast somewhere, it's being put into a stiffer chassis. I remember reading on a camaro forum somewhere, back in like 03 or so, that someone had seen a 4th Gen cut in half and said that once he saw that, he realized where all the weight was going, and was quite impressed.




Would be nice to see either way. Bigger really is better sometimes. :D
This is very interesting, I never really thought that the F chassis was all that stiff. Heres some food for thought though, Corvette's dont have aftermarket subframe connectors, but F-bodies do.

The F-body very much so was sold world wide.


Really? I didn't know of any models designated for south american export. Or Asia. Or Africa. Or Australia.

The silvia (or 240SX) is alot shorter, (177in. long opposed to 193in long) and is a few inches narrower too.

A friend of mine has one. I always thought his car was smaller too. One day we put them side by side. They are basically the same size. I was amazed, but there it was, nonetheless.

Which "240" are you going by? We got One-Vias here and 180s as well as Sylvias, all labeled as "240"s. Also there are a few generations of Sylvia too. My friends is an S-14.


Also if I recall didnt have steel body pannels.

What, 2 panels are that heavy? :P lol They are paper thin too. Sucks because they dent so easily. :(

Dont forget a beefier transmission for the F-bodies, the solid rear end (which Im not sure if it weighs more or less than a comparable IRS), exhaust components (much bigger than a 240SX's), and the wheels are bigger too.

The wheels are wider, but that's about it. I've always heard that IRS was heavier, but just had less unsprung weight. But I guess it all depends on which IRS compared to which live axle.


Im going off on a limb here, but the 240sx's chassis might be aluminum too.

I'll look into that. They don't have a stiffness problem either way.



This is very interesting, I never really thought that the F chassis was all that stiff. Heres some food for thought though, Corvette's dont have aftermarket subframe connectors, but F-bodies do.

'Vettes are a body on frame. That necessitates a full frame. But that by itself doesn't make it stiffer. (not saying it's not either, but just for example, the GNX had a full frame, but it was a weak frame)

Can't really put SFCs on a full frame. But you can cage it. And both cars have cages available.

The 'Vette may be stiffer, I'm not trying to say it's not, just that the F-Body isn't weak. "Stiffer is always better", so I guess it's hard to get "too stiff", but, the F-Body does seem "stiff enough" to handle cornering abuse and still last a long time.

Now, if you go putting 800rwhp or something crazy like that, with solid mounts and drag slicks, yeah, you'll twist it up and will need a cage.

I got into that conversation with that sponsor because I too once thought the 4th Gen to be weak and I'm paranoid about chassis flex (as metal flex leads to metal fatigue, and the chassis is the one part you can't really replace). I'm feeling a lot better about it now, but I still have SLP SFCs bolted and welded in and am thinking about a lightweight custom cage to add slightly without taking up too much room or weight. :)

A friend of mine has one. I always thought his car was smaller too. One day we put them side by side. They are basically the same size. I was amazed, but there it was, nonetheless.

Which "240" are you going by? We got One-Vias here and 180s as well as Sylvias, all labeled as "240"s. Also there are a few generations of Sylvia too. My friends is an S-14.

I also have a friend with an S14 (RB20DET swap too!), and its a pretty small car. I got those stats from an S14 240SX.



What, 2 panels are that heavy? :P lol They are paper thin too. Sucks because they dent so easily. :(

Yeah true...
(Damn, I have a small dent in my drivers side pannel :( )


The wheels are wider, but that's about it. I've always heard that IRS was heavier, but just had less unsprung weight. But I guess it all depends on which IRS compared to which live axle.

Dont S14s have smaller than 16" wheels? Also just about everything on the f-cars are bigger, just think about it.



I'll look into that. They don't have a stiffness problem either way.

I tried to look it up and came up with nothing. But your right, they sure dont have a stiffness problem.




'Vettes are a body on frame. That necessitates a full frame. But that by itself doesn't make it stiffer. (not saying it's not either, but just for example, the GNX had a full frame, but it was a weak frame)

Yes, the Corvette uses a "back bone" chassis, same as other sports cars, like the Miata.
F-bodies, if Im not mistaken, use a "ladder" chassis.

The 'Vette may be stiffer, I'm not trying to say it's not, just that the F-Body isn't weak. "Stiffer is always better", so I guess it's hard to get "too stiff", but, the F-Body does seem "stiff enough" to handle cornering abuse and still last a long time.

Well thats good to hear, although I must argue that I hear of people auto-xing, and then t-tops not fitting right. Also on uneven pavement, you get to hear that lovley plastic cracking sound from the dash, from the chassis flexing, and therefore bending everything else(my car does that).
Dont get me wrong, Im not against F-bodies at all (hey I bought one!) Im just stating a few facts.


I got into that conversation with that sponsor because I too once thought the 4th Gen to be weak and I'm paranoid about chassis flex (as metal flex leads to metal fatigue, and the chassis is the one part you can't really replace). I'm feeling a lot better about it now, but I still have SLP SFCs bolted and welded in and am thinking about a lightweight custom cage to add slightly without taking up too much room or weight. :)
Thats good to hear, and Im more reassured now too.

Yes, the Corvette uses a "back bone" chassis, same as other sports cars, like the Miata.
F-bodies, if Im not mistaken, use a "ladder" chassis.

A ladder chassis as I've ever heard it is a dual paralell frame rail set up, like on a pickup. A uni-body is something unto it's own.

My point though, was that the lack of SFCs for a full frame car is obvious and doesn't mean that it's inherently stronger than something that they are offered for.

And the fact that they are offered doesn't mean they are needed. For example, the 3 point STB. Or STBs at all really.



Well thats good to hear, although I must argue that I hear of people auto-xing, and then t-tops not fitting right. Also on uneven pavement, you get to hear that lovley plastic cracking sound from the dash, from the chassis flexing, and therefore bending everything else(my car does that).
Dont get me wrong, Im not against F-bodies at all (hey I bought one!) Im just stating a few facts.

"a few facts" and "think about it"? Ease back a bit there dude.

Here's a fact that you missed though - interior shakes and noises do not automatically equal a flexing chassis. If the interior parts are mounted on weak or flexible mounts, they will shake if enough shock force is transmitted through the chassis. As an example, yesterday I was cleaning the interior and happened to notice that the top piece of the center console that goes around the shifter is not mounted securely to the underlying console. It will move if you push or pull gently on it. In time, that could very well end up a source of rattles. It wouldn't be because the car was twisting, it would be because the shock force of the bump would go straight through that stiff frame and rattle the loose interior parts, like that, the seatbelts, possibly the seat backs, dash pieces, etc, etc. If everything was cinched down much better, the cars would feel 10x stiffer. It's all about perception.

I've experiencend a weak chassis. My 84 T/A that I bought with about 140,000+ miles on it had T-Tops and in the winter, dew would freeze in the top's seams and as I backed out of my inclined drive way and turned (so I didn't scrape the nose), I could hear the ice breaking. Clearly indicating that the car was twisting.

Even my stock 88 GTA (hard top) that only ever experiened a little bit of spirited back road fun developed stress cracks where the door met the sail panel on the driver's side.

With 10 years of cars that weak, it's hard to shake a perception.

"a few facts" and "think about it"? Ease back a bit there dude.

Here's a fact that you missed though - interior shakes and noises do not automatically equal a flexing chassis. If the interior parts are mounted on weak or flexible mounts, they will shake if enough shock force is transmitted through the chassis. As an example, yesterday I was cleaning the interior and happened to notice that the top piece of the center console that goes around the shifter is not mounted securely to the underlying console. It will move if you push or pull gently on it. In time, that could very well end up a source of rattles. It wouldn't be because the car was twisting, it would be because the shock force of the bump would go straight through that stiff frame and rattle the loose interior parts, like that, the seatbelts, possibly the seat backs, dash pieces, etc, etc. If everything was cinched down much better, the cars would feel 10x stiffer. It's all about perception.

The crack Im talking about in particular only happens when I hit a bump with only one side of the car. And its the very top of the dash near the window, where the 'cheap' plastic is.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355809&page=2

The peak speeds and being a personal car lead me to think he wasn't pushing it all that hard (I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to really break something on that track, which doesn't matter if it's not your car, but if it is..... ).

So 9 minutes isn't all that bad under those circumstances. And 8:30 with minor suspension and brake upgrades is pretty good.

If ya think about it, it's only 47 seconds slower than the C6 Z06 run by a professional race driver with loads of experience on the track who wasn't drive his own car and wasn't concerned about beating the piss out of it.

Damn good I'd say. :drive:

Edit - This is a Camaro and not a WS6, but it is an LS1 F-Body. Like I was saying above, we really can't say the WS6 would run that time, could be faster, could be slower (which I unfortunately suspect) because of aerodynamics at high speed. However, I guess it does work for a rough idea.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355809&page=2

The peak speeds and being a personal car lead me to think he wasn't pushing it all that hard (I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to really break something on that track, which doesn't matter if it's not your car, but if it is..... ).

So 9 minutes isn't all that bad under those circumstances. And 8:30 with minor suspension and brake upgrades is pretty good.

If ya think about it, it's only 47 seconds slower than the C6 Z06 run by a professional race driver with loads of experience on the track who wasn't drive his own car and wasn't concerned about beating the piss out of it.

Damn good I'd say. :drive:

Edit - This is a Camaro and not a WS6, but it is an LS1 F-Body. Like I was saying above, we really can't say the WS6 would run that time, could be faster, could be slower (which I unfortunately suspect) because of aerodynamics at high speed. However, I guess it does work for a rough idea.


Good find, thanks!

Cool. Must try mine at the ring soon .

The Nissan Sylvia is about the same size and is 2800lbs or so. With an iron block. (even though it is a 4 cylinder)

So that's 700lbs difference. That's far more substantial than 4 vs 8 cylinder. Both are manual RWD platforms.

So unless the Trans Am is carrying lead ballast somewhere, it's being put into a stiffer chassis. I remember reading on a camaro forum somewhere, back in like 03 or so, that someone had seen a 4th Gen cut in half and said that once he saw that, he realized where all the weight was going, and was quite impressed.




Would be nice to see either way. Bigger really is better sometimes. :D


the nissan "silvia" aka 180sx had the sr20det which is a aluminum block and head.

btw all the panels on the 180/240 are steel.

s14's had 15in wheels.
s13's had 15in wheels.

The Silvia is not the 180. We got 180s here labeled as 240s. 180s are hatchbacks with flip up headlights. Silvias are Coupes with exposed headlights.

We also got One-vias here as well - Silvias with the 180's flip up headlights. People in Japan started doing their own conversions to that after awhile.

One we didn't get was the Sil-eighty. A 180 with a Silvia front end on it.


Do you let people call your car a Firebird? (speaking of which, it seems a little odd to see a Camaro sig in the Firebird forum. lol) I sure as hell don't let people call my Trans Am a Camaro (and a few have tried). Hell, most of the time I don't let them call it a Firebird, because it's not a mere 'Firebird', it's a Trans Am. Enough so that even the manufacturer saw fit to only put "Trans Am" on the car, whereas even the Formula still says "Firebird" on the back.

I'm thinking there is more difference between the 180 and Silvia as well, but I have to check first. Regardless, a Firebird is not a Camaro and a Silvia is not a 180.

I'm just a stickler for detail like that. :P lol