SSDoubleK

iTrader: (100)

High, I am new to this sight. I'm having some major cam install problems. Without trying to write a book, I've been doing my cam install since July 29,2005. I have installed the new cam using the LS1 How to instructions, these are a nice guideline, but have found that a manuel also filled in some of the gaps the intructions missed. I've been trying to Install Lunati cam 221/221 558/558 114LSA, was able to get this cam back in after a slight lifter drop, that I was able to save with a pen magnet. Lined up the cam gear and crank dot at 12Midnight and 6 straight up and down(perfect I thought) turned the motor over manuely six times felt no real tension, instructions said you may feel some due to the fact your building compression, reassembled car, pulled white plugs off each side of the injectors fired the car up for four seconds she cranked with no god awful noises, so I thought okay good to go, put white plugs back in to injectors fired car up, it ran for about 10 seconds, was shaking really bad(thought that was normal, instructions said you would see smoke and hear loud valve train noise)car died, intructions said this could happen, so attempted to fire car up again and use 10percent throttle, car would crank but would not fire up, had some loud popping and then I killed the battery. Charged battery back up, came out next day,car would crank, and made a very loud popping noise and would not catch. Well after many a questions to speed shops, local mechanics, and research on my own I figured something must be out of timing. So yesterday August 13, I decided to tear the car back down again and find out what the problem was, well first off the timing looked fine, crank gear and cam gear were at 12 and six, only one problem though, they weren't set at TDC, after putting number one cyclinder at TDC, I discoverd that crank gear was at 12 and cam gear dot was at 12, a 180degrees off. Not good I found out, instructions did not tell me to go to TDC, the Manuel later on I find out does tell you this. Well after seeing this I took off my valve covers, and found a mess, looks like all my intake rocker arms busted out at the pivot bearings,why?,I thougt I torqued them to 22lbs,I used a wrench to were they were tight and then used the torque wrench to 22lbs,had little metal mice sized metal turds in there from the rocker arms. Never in the instructions did I read the rockers had to be adjusted in some sort of numeric order for the exhaust side and intake side, then rotate 360 degrees and finish the rest, only the manuel told me this I later find out. I have all but given up on the valve spring swap, what a pain in the butt!! Read some posts on the Crane tool, (more tool I believe its called and also the vince tool, maybe I'll go and spend some more money and get that tool also) This cam install I thought would be somewhat okay, not a nightmare, my questions is before I reinstall everything, are the valve springs all supposed to be even across, or is it normal for some to be lower than the others with the rockers removed. Did I do some valve damage? Looks like no 8cyclinder Intake,No. 4 Cyclinder Intake, they seem to be almost halfway down. The others are almost all the same height across. Please advise. Trying to stay positive on the Install. Thanx I did turn the motor over another six times and the valve springs did not come up.

2xLS1

iTrader: (25)

As long as the crank gear dot was at 12:00, the cam gear dot can be at either 6:00 or 12:00. It does not matter. The crank turns twice for every one turn of the cam.

The bad news is, going by your description of what your valve look like now, you have bent valves and the heads are going to have to come off.

SSDoubleK

iTrader: (100)

Okay, thanx for the response, but if I was okay, how could I have bent a valve, I heard no strange noises?.

2xLS1

iTrader: (25)

The only way you bend valves with that size cam is not having the dots lined up correctly. The way you installed the rockers did not cause the problem. Also, are you saying you did all this before you changed the valve springs?

SSDoubleK

iTrader: (100)

Yes, I did not change the valve springs, they are stock, didn't think according to what I've read that mattered much unless I was going to run the motor past 6600 rpms. The dots were not at TDC, did not realize they had to be, first cam install, Instructions a LS1 how to.com did not tell me to do this,Manuel I found out later tells you to do this, but what your telling me I should have been okay at 12 and 12. I t urned the motor over six times with rockers and tightned down with stock valve springs and felt some resistance , but felt I was building compression and that was normal, before I lined the dots up wrong a previous time and the crank would not turn but only a quarter turn. Before I tear into those heads I gotta be 100 percent, this project has involved way to much of my time. Thank you for all of your responses, keep them coming.

gollum

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=SSDoubleK] So yesterday August 13, I decided to tear the car back down again and find out what the problem was, after putting number one cyclinder at TDC, I discoverd that crank gear was at 12 and cam gear dot was at 12, a 180degrees off. Well after seeing this I took off my valve covers, and found a mess, looks like all my intake rocker arms busted out at the pivot bearings,why? Did I do some valve damage? Looks like no 8cyclinder Intake,No. 4 Cyclinder Intake, they seem to be almost halfway down. QUOTE]

Do the valves stay halfway down with rocker arms and push rods removed? If so you have bent valves. There would be no other reason for the valves, retainers,and springs to stay down.

SSDoubleK

iTrader: (100)

Okay, not trying to be a smarty here, so what you are telling me is that if there is no pressure on the valve spring from the rocker arm being tightned down on it that it should fully be in the upright position and not be compressed at all? Also why did my rocker arms bust out at the pivot bearing? Thanx for all responses.

SSDoubleK

iTrader: (100)

Okay, any great instructions I can use to get those heads off. Might as well do the cam swap correctly and change the lifters also. How hard is it to change these parts. Thanx. My nightmare continues. I'm sure to get to know this car that much more.

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Correct. Because your cam was out of time your pistons hit your valves causing them to bend, bending pushrods, and bust rockerarms. Worry will not help, you wanted ported heads anyway didn't you.

Look on the bright side. I may be wrong.

2xLS1

iTrader: (25)

Think about it. Crank gear dot at 12, cam gear dot at 12. Now turn the crank one revolution. Where is the cam gear dot now?
The dot on the crank gear is hard to see. Are you sure it was at 12? You should have removed the spark plugs before turning the motor over by hand. Then any resistance you felt would have been P to V interference. If your valves are not all at the same height with the rockers off, and you do not have any broken valve springs, then the valves that are lower are bent.

WeeWolf

iTrader: (16)

yes they should all be fully extended, probably the rockers were a weak link when the valves bent and thats why. did you put in hardened pushrods, if you did that would explain the rocker problem. if you have a digital camera post up pics of rockers so we can see what your talking about for sure. unfortunalty i going to have to agree sounds like you have bent valves.

gollum

iTrader: (1)

I always make sure #1 piston is at compression stroke top dead center before removing old cam and keeping it there until new cam, chain and gears are lined up and installed. Then I will degree the cam per cam card specs.

SSDoubleK

iTrader: (100)

Yes, I have hardened pushrods and they did not bust, I wanted to say that when I lined up the crank gear and cam dot that they were at 6 and 12 perfectly before I had put everything back together. It was after I tore the motor down the second time I discoverd after finding out I needed to be at TDC that I was at 12 and 12. I would have set it at TDC if the instructions would have told me this on LS1 Howto.com, sounds like I really screwed those valves up but good. I'm using Bosch +4 plugs and they all were removed when I rotated the motor, I was going to change those springs, its just the KD compressor was giving me to much ***** so I gave up. Looks like I'm going to get another chance. Thanx again

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Roll your pushrods on glass or a perfectly flat suface. If they are bent you will know it and need new pushrods.

Full-Force

iTrader: (11)

I dont know what to tell you. It sounds like it was not out of time. If it is timed up right when the crank dot is at 12 then the cam dot will be at 12 or 6. If its at 12 then when you turn the crank till the dot comes up on top again then the cam dot will be at 6.

I dont know how you busted all of your valvetrain up like that. A cam is not something a beginner wants to try. Since its basicly the brains of the engine it can take out the whole engine if its not right.

It sounds like you may have a costly job on your hands now. You may want to get a pro to do your new heads/cam. I would hate to ruin a couple of thousand dollars worth of new parts from a simple mistake.

SSDoubleK

iTrader: (100)

I'm new on doing a cam install, but mechanics are not new to me, the only way to learn is do something yourself, I have learned alot so far on my car and will keep on learning good or bad, with some insight from everyone here and my own book knowledge, I will have my car running again, and will be able to say I screwed it up and fixed it. Knowledge is power and thanx to all of you this evening I'm not giving up. Thanx again. SSDoubleK

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Now position the #1 piston @TDC during ignition firing stroke and keep it there until you are finished with cam and head install.

tbojbob

That's a good way to look at it now, chalk it up as EXPERIENCE! Ain't none of us claim to be error free, I wish I had all the $$$ I have blown just in the past 5 years on my screw-ups....suck it up, get you a cold long neck or two and make a new plan of attack armed with your hard earned experience! Don't be afraid to post questions before each step if necessary.

gollum

iTrader: (1)

The glass of water is half full. Be positive.

eallanboggs

iTrader: (1)

This is the kind of thing that you wish you didn't have to chalk up to experience especially with all of the knowledge you have to draw from on LS1Tech. It sounds like a little basic 4 stroke cycle theory is in order. You have to remember that the piston is going to be at TDC twice in every 4 stroke cycle. Don't convince yourself that just because #1 is at TDC that this is the TDC you want. There is a 50/50 chance you are wrong. You should have put #1 at TDC on the compression stroke during the disassembly process and also pulled the plugs to make spinning the motor over a lot easier. The crank is going to tell the piston to go to TDC, but the cam decides when the compression stroke ocurrs. How in the world you snapped off your rockers without the timing being off is a mystery. That's all water under the bridge at this point, but more damage can be done if you don't take certain precautions during the head remove/install process. Be SURE that you use paper towels in all of the head mount bolt holes to wick up any water that gets into them when you pull the heads off. Then use your compressor to blow out the rest of the water. Take 2 of the old head bolts (there are two different sizes) and grind one side of each bolt flat on the side of the wheel on your bench grinder. Use these as a thread chaser on each bolt hole on both banks. Put a little thread lube in the holes after cleaning up the threads. Use new bolts to secure the heads. SDPC has a head gasket set at a good price that includes manifold (both intake and exhaust) and heads gaskets. It also has the dowels and those little steam tube "O" ring/gasket things. You'll need 4 dowels and 4 "O" rings and they are included in the kit. Buy yourself a set of shaft mount rockers like Jesel SS or Comp Pro Mags since you already have the hardened pushrod. It's still hard to believe you snapped off your rockers if you turned your motor as many times by hand as you say you did. Oh, be ABSOLUTELY SURE you get all of the little rocker roller bearings out of the block before you turn the key. It sounds like you had a bunch of them floating around in your motor after the rockers snapped off. By the way your springs are NOT supposed to be at different heights. The ones that are lower than the others (springs partially compressed) have BENT VALVES. The more I think about this the more it sounds like your timing had to be way off even though you insist is was correct. Bent valves AND broken rockers all add up to improper timing. During EACH and EVERY step of your work you should turn the crank by hand to be SURE you havn't made a mistake. The motor should be easy to turn up until you put the rockers in. At that point the springs will create some resistance, but not a great amount. If you feel unusual resistance STOP and go back over your work.