View Full Version : HP Tuners and EFI Live Comparison


JeremyMSG
08-28-2005, 09:51 PM
Hi Guys,
I am looking to buy tuning software for my 04. I have read, read, read, and re-read many of the great posts on tuning here on this board and others. I feel like I have a good idea of how to get started tuning, and have now begun researching the available options.

I have been able to figure out that EFI Live and HP Tuners are the only two viable options for what I want to do. The problem is, I feel like I am going to buy a very expensive, fancy hammer....but I have never swung one in my life. I know how it is supposed to work and what it is supposed to do, but how do I decide between these two great tools :bang:

Can you all provide me some positive feedback on both. I do not want to start a bashing war at all and really do not want this thread to be locked after only 5 minutes. I AM NOT ASKING WHICH ONE IS "BETTER". My question is, what is unique about each tool and why does that matter?

For example:
-EFI Live has the black box ability. This allows me to leave my laptop at home or in the pits.
-HP Tuners license is for two years, not two VIN's. This allows me to tune as many vehicles as I want within those years chosen.

Thanks in advance for your advice. I know there are some top notch self tuners on here and I look forward to hearing what you all have to say :hail:

TAQuickness
08-28-2005, 10:00 PM
Go to the respective websites and compare features.

I use EFILive, love it, and highly recommend it.


Don't be afraid to use the search button.

JeremyMSG
08-28-2005, 10:03 PM
Go to the respective websites and compare features.

I use EFILive, love it, and highly recommend it.


Don't be afraid to use the search button.

The whole point to my post is why do you love it and highly recommend it?

Scooter70
08-28-2005, 10:31 PM
You can't go wrong with either. I use HPT and the only thing that I know about EFILive that I would like better is the black box logging. HPT2.0 is supposed to add more features that EFI may or may not have. Your example includes the only other difference... the two model years vs the 2 VINs. I believe that HPT may now include free updates for life, like EFILive.

My prediction: When this thread becomes another pissing match, it's going to get locked down.

-Matt

HumpinSS
08-28-2005, 11:58 PM
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372565#goto_threadsearch

JustAnIlluzion
08-29-2005, 12:18 AM
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372565#goto_threadsearch

:confused:

TAQuickness
08-29-2005, 05:56 AM
The whole point to my post is why do you love it and highly recommend it?

The answers are out there - if you search, you can find them

HumpinSS
08-29-2005, 07:28 AM
:confused:


hahahahahahaha

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/search.php?

JeremyMSG
08-29-2005, 09:48 AM
You can't go wrong with either. I use HPT and the only thing that I know about EFILive that I would like better is the black box logging. HPT2.0 is supposed to add more features that EFI may or may not have. Your example includes the only other difference... the two model years vs the 2 VINs. I believe that HPT may now include free updates for life, like EFILive.

My prediction: When this thread becomes another pissing match, it's going to get locked down.

-Matt

Thanks Matt. Part of my problem is that when I look at the different feature lists between HPT 1.7 and 2.0 and then compare those back to EFI Live, I see a lot of terminaology that has little meaning for me. The marketing spin from each site is expected, but it takes someone using the tools over a period of time to understand what features of each tool is funtionaly helpful, and what sounds good but is not worth anything. The feature updates between 1.7 and 2.0 "sound" great, but deciphering why they will actually help me be a better tuner is what I am trying to figure out.

Seems like when you go to buy other types of items in this price range there are more apparent comparisons between products that give you a better idea of how the tools work.

The two items I mentioned and that you confirmed where the only to real features that seprate the products that I was able to find by "using the search button" :eyes:

Thanks for the recommendation Matt :chug:

foff667
08-29-2005, 10:17 AM
I agree with scooter70 in that you cant go wrong either way...personally I use hptuners & personally found 1.7 to be fine to tune anything you need, but everyone wants more & with the competition out there the guys at hpt couldnt just stand by and let efi live pass them so they are trying to step up to stay on top. They are initially priced lower then efi live, & imo their licensing is slightly better. EFI live sort of has a leg up in the scanner dept but 2.0 will even the score with that, efi live also sort of has a leg up in that they offer a free 2 bar but from what I understand its not as in depth as hptuners pay to use 2 bar. They now both offer free updates so thats a non issue. As far as editing capabilities they are on level playing ground from what I know. And like mentioned efi live has the black box logging as well as currently offering a usb connection whereas hptuners still currently only offers the serial connection until 2.0 is fully released. If I were to buy again right now I'd still go with hptuners only for their licensing, the amount of licenses you can put on one unit, how many different types of cars you can tune...hptuners also tunes many v6 models whereas efi live is mainly ls1 based v8 cars/trucks currently.

HumpinSS
08-29-2005, 10:29 AM
Both companies licensing works depending on how and what you tune.

Scenario 1

1-98
2-00
1-02
2-01

HPT= 400
Efilive= 98=free 2 licenses come with the cable and 300.00
All fbodys


Scenario 2

1 00 corvette
1 03 Silvy
1 fbody
1 gto

HPT=800
EFILive=400

JeremyMSG
08-29-2005, 10:39 AM
hahahahahahaha

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/search.php?

Brilliant response. I am so elated by your presence and your unique ability to impart sage-like wisdom and perspicacious wit :eyes:

Seriously it would have been kind of funny if you had not screwed up the dig the first time and had to repost it. The point is, I have searched and was looking for some insight from knowledgeable people who have been using the tools. It's not like I am on hear asking for a recommendation on headers :huh: I am not even asking for a "which one is better" I am asking for some POSITIVE feedback on why you like/love/can't live with out the tool you have chosen to use.

Here is what I have been able to discern from all of my searches. The two tools are about the same with the following differences

EFI Live HP Tuners
Black Box No Black Box
Licensed by WIN Licensed by Year
Built-in EIO Must Purchase $150
Free Updates Limited Free Updates

What have I missed? :cheers:

JeremyMSG
08-29-2005, 10:42 AM
I agree with scooter70 in that you cant go wrong either way...personally I use hptuners & personally found 1.7 to be fine to tune anything you need, but everyone wants more & with the competition out there the guys at hpt couldnt just stand by and let efi live pass them so they are trying to step up to stay on top. They are initially priced lower then efi live, & imo their licensing is slightly better. EFI live sort of has a leg up in the scanner dept but 2.0 will even the score with that, efi live also sort of has a leg up in that they offer a free 2 bar but from what I understand its not as in depth as hptuners pay to use 2 bar. They now both offer free updates so thats a non issue. As far as editing capabilities they are on level playing ground from what I know. And like mentioned efi live has the black box logging as well as currently offering a usb connection whereas hptuners still currently only offers the serial connection until 2.0 is fully released. If I were to buy again right now I'd still go with hptuners only for their licensing, the amount of licenses you can put on one unit, how many different types of cars you can tune...hptuners also tunes many v6 models whereas efi live is mainly ls1 based v8 cars/trucks currently.


Thank you kind sir :hail: That what am talking about :chug:

JeremyMSG
08-29-2005, 10:44 AM
Both companies licensing works depending on how and what you tune.

Scenario 1

1-98
2-00
1-02
2-01

HPT= 400
Efilive= 98=free 2 licenses come with the cable and 300.00
All fbodys


Scenario 2

1 00 corvette
1 03 Silvy
1 fbody
1 gto

HPT=800
EFILive=400


Please ignore my mean post back :emb: I jumped the gun :thumb:

HumpinSS
08-29-2005, 10:45 AM
No hard feelings. LOL

foff667
08-29-2005, 10:50 AM
Both companies licensing works depending on how and what you tune.

Scenario 1

1-98
2-00
1-02
2-01

HPT= 400
Efilive= 98=free 2 licenses come with the cable and 300.00
All fbodys


Scenario 2

1 00 corvette
1 03 Silvy
1 fbody
1 gto

HPT=800
EFILive=400

eh a little skewed if a person used hptuners to tune the 1st scenerio with the enhanced version yoru talking
$650 for the unit w/2 licenses for say 98/00 fbodies
then buy two more licenses for 01/02 fbodies @$199 each so your talking

$650+$199+$199=$1048

EFI live would be $699+$99+$99+$99+$99=$1095

Scenerio 2 would be
$650+$199+$199=$1048 for hpt

efi live would be $699+$99+$99=$897

Say Scenerio 3
3-98's
2-99's
2-00's
2-02's

hptuners again would be $1048
efi live however would be $699+7 licenses@99 each=$1392

so it all depends oh how many & what type of cars you tune...for a shop that specializes in fbodies & only fbodies though they could get every year for less then $1500 on one cable...whereas if they wanted to go with efi live it would almost be the smart thing to just go with the commercial version which is like 4x that price...again you cant go wrong with each...in my case I tune gtp's & v6 fbodies as well so they offer something efi live doesnt...and like I said their licensing just works out better in my case. Though I wish they'd lower the pricing for after 4 licenses are purchased on one cable ;) especially now that updates are free I really dont see a reason to inconvience anyone.

foff667
08-29-2005, 10:52 AM
EFI Live HP Tuners
Black Box No Black Box
Licensed by WIN Licensed by Year
Built-in EIO Must Purchase $150
Free Updates Limited Free Updates

What have I missed? :cheers:

they both offer free updates now

HumpinSS
08-29-2005, 10:59 AM
eh a little skewed if a person used hptuners to tune the 1st scenerio with the enhanced version yoru talking
$650 for the unit w/2 licenses for say 98/00 fbodies
then buy two more licenses for 01/02 fbodies @$199 each so your talking

$650+$199+$199=$1048

EFI live would be $699+$99+$99+$99+$99=$1095



I excluded the initial pruchase of the cable and dealt with licensing only. EFILive comes with 2 licences off the back. So to add another 01 and 00 it would only be 300. 98 support is free so that isnt counted. 2 licenses come with the cable and that leaves 3 vehicles to be tuned@99.00 per vehicle


Scenerio 2 would be
$650+$199+$199=$1048 for hpt

efi live would be $699+$99+$99=$897


Scenario 2 is flawed, my mistake.

HPT= 400
EFILIVe=200


Say Scenerio 3
3-98's
2-99's
2-00's
2-02's

hptuners again would be $1048
efi live however would be $699+7 licenses@99 each=$1392


HPT=400
EFILive = 400 (98's free,2 licenses come with the cable leaving 4 to license)

foff667
08-29-2005, 11:04 AM
i didnt even think about 98's...so efi live has 98 support now? I know that was a long awaited thing.

Fetumpsh
08-29-2005, 07:47 PM
EFI live sort of has a leg up in the scanner dept but 2.0 will even the score with that

Sort has a leg up, are you kidding?, have you used EFILive V7 scanner?.
I spoke to a workshop last week that is using EFILive V7 and they were shown V2.0 as a demo because they want LS2 support (whch EFILive does not offer), they said the scanner in V2.0 has got NOTHING on EFILive still.
The gauge display in V2.0 is about on par with EFILive V4, yep V4!!, the charts still look the same, he didn't know about the PID selection but currently EFLive V7 has over 250 PID's to log, not sure how that compares to V2.0, V7 has 10 totally configurable MAPs (has had for months), very powerful data filtering, not too mention your logged data is traced back into the tuning program, I don't know if V2.0 does this?.


efi live also sort of has a leg up in that they offer a free 2 bar but from what I understand its not as in depth as hptuners pay to use 2 bar.

The FREE EFILive 2 bar also allows 3bar, it comes with Valet mode, 2step limiter, MAP vs RPM AFR table and a few other features the pay as you go HPT 2bar does not have. You can download the pdf file from EFILive that explains how to set it up, you'll then see how many more features it has.


They now both offer free updates so thats a non issue. As far as editing capabilities they are on level playing ground from what I know.

I am not sure about HPT here, but EFILive has about 650 tables/parameters to edit. As for the free updates, EFILive has always offered this, they didn't need to be pressured into it.


And like mentioned efi live has the black box logging as well as currently offering a usb connection whereas hptuners still currently only offers the serial connection until 2.0 is fully released.

Yeah, I hate the way EFILive copies everyone :eyes:


If I were to buy again right now I'd still go with hptuners only for their licensing, the amount of licenses you can put on one unit, how many different types of cars you can tune...hptuners also tunes many v6 models whereas efi live is mainly ls1 based v8 cars/trucks currently.

I think if you look past the software differences then yes the license schemes can work out better for some using the HPT system where with others it works out better to go with EFILive, I guess it depends what types of vehicles you need to tune and how many.
I didn't want to turn this into a bashing session but the original posters questions were simply not answered correctly!!.

Magnus
08-29-2005, 08:28 PM
And there you have it. It doesn't get any more biased than Fetumpsh.

You have no idea how powerful VCM Suite 2.0 is. Keep burning bridges man. You do it so well.

TAQuickness
08-29-2005, 08:28 PM
In a nut shell, competition in the LSx tuning market is great right now. The major contenders will take their turns one-upping each other and, as time goes on, the end result is bad ass tuning software for the end users.

I chose to go with EFILive because I believe they were truely looking to support my current and future tuning needs. My tuning needs, and I'm sure others feel the same way, go beyond the software that's installed on this laptop.

Fetumpsh
08-29-2005, 08:59 PM
And there you have it. It doesn't get any more biased than Fetumpsh.

You have no idea how powerful VCM Suite 2.0 is. Keep burning bridges man. You do it so well.

Keith it is only factual, not biased, perhaps when V2.0 is released and the whole world can judge then you can dispute what I've written, but until then what is in my post was truth as of current release for both products and comments made by people who have used or seen both in action :confused:

Burning bridges, please, lets not revist the PCM Hacking to HPT transformation again, those fires are still buring out there, if only you knew :eyes:

PM me if this needs to get personal (it doesn't need to) or the mods will shut this one down too.

Magnus
08-29-2005, 09:11 PM
Personal? You make it personal with bullshit like this:

Burning bridges, please, lets not revist the PCM Hacking to HPT transformation again, those fires are still buring out there, if only you knew :eyes:


That is such a load of crap and you make it out to seem like its even an issue. Please, back this statement of yours up. If you got the balls to say something like that, post your reasoning.

I have all of the old forum history saved. I know exactly who posted info and who didn't. What happened to the 3 major information posters? They now own HP Tuners. What did YOU do to help the cause? Oh yea, you did nothing.

Your thread history on ls1tech shows a very clear pattern.

horist
08-29-2005, 09:31 PM
ONLY warning... any more arguing in this thread and it will go the route of ALL the other threads ...

Fetumpsh
08-29-2005, 09:52 PM
Done deal Horist, I'll PM Keith (as I asked him to do to me) if anything further needs to be said outside of this X vs Y thread.

JeremyMSG
08-29-2005, 10:12 PM
Thanks you Horist :) I really did not want this to turn into a bad post.

Fetumpsh, thanks for the response. I have a few questions if you could help me out. A few of the features you mentioned, such as valet mode, do those come with the $699 version or the $899 version? Also, can all of the tuning and calculations be done inside of EFI Live or do I need to import and export data to/from an Excel spreadsheet? What else besides the dashboard, and massive number of tables on the tool makes this a product that you are so passionate about. Also, sorry for the :newbie: question, but can you explain the PID logging, how is it done so well in EFI Live? Thanks again for the responses, I do appreciate it :cheers:

Fetumpsh
08-29-2005, 11:04 PM
Fetumpsh, thanks for the response. I have a few questions if you could help me out. A few of the features you mentioned, such as valet mode, do those come with the $699 version or the $899 version?

You need the $849 version.


Also, can all of the tuning and calculations be done inside of EFI Live or do I need to import and export data to/from an Excel spreadsheet?

Save Excel for bookeeping not tuning!, everything is done within EFILive.


What else besides the dashboard, and massive number of tables on the tool makes this a product that you are so passionate about. Also, sorry for the :newbie: question, but can you explain the PID logging, how is it done so well in EFI Live? Thanks again for the responses, I do appreciate it :cheers:

As far as the PID logging goes any scantool is limited by the PCM's speed, the number of PID's I referred to was the number of parameters you can monitor, not at once, but more so the choices from simple RPM values to Trans Pressure solenoid current, etc.

I'd suggest you head over to the EFILive forum and ask for further details on the differences, there is quite a few on that forum that have gone from Edit, to Tuners to EFILive that will answer any other questions you might have without fear of things getting out of hand. Oh, and download the demo too.

JustAnIlluzion
08-29-2005, 11:34 PM
i wonder when this is gonna get locked.. tick tock tick tock

Fetumpsh
08-29-2005, 11:38 PM
No need to lock it, I've only posted facts to the questions asked, got flamed for it and said there will be no more 'off tpoic' discussions by myself....it's all good isn't it?
What's more the original poster was directed to the EFILive forum to save on further X vs Y topics.

Magnus
08-29-2005, 11:41 PM
Can you not see how biased your replies are?

There is much mistruth to your "factual" replies.

Fetumpsh
08-29-2005, 11:53 PM
There is much mistruth to your "factual" replies.

Enlighten me?

MNC5
08-29-2005, 11:58 PM
The two items I mentioned and that you confirmed where the only to real features that seprate the products that I was able to find by "using the search button" :eyes:

Thanks for the recommendation Matt :chug:

If you belive your own comment then your either stupid or a troll. Both are good products and most would agree you can't go wrong with either one. If you really used the search tool you'd find more than two items seperate the two. I'd recommend you get LS1 Edit... Even if you can't figure out how to use the seach button you'll still be able to tune with Edit... :jest: :biggrinan Heck one of your choices even has a functional demo download// or at least I think they do..

Pro Stock John
08-30-2005, 12:02 AM
Horist is on it, but I want to emphasize that this is a tech site and we won't allow folks to take shots back and forth. Discuss nicely or we won't allow comparison threads anymore.

Fetumpsh
08-30-2005, 12:50 AM
I agree, lets keep this civil as possible, I do just want to say a few things before we get back to the comparison discussion.
Keith has stated my posted facts were not quite correct, I am more than happy for him to correct me with the true facts.

The section where I had said I spoke to someone that had been shown V2.0 obviously cannot be verified here because we can't name names on a public forums if those people are not aware of that, but HPT would know who is being shown what by the dealers, they can track that down as I am sure they will be getting feedback from the dealers and Beta testers, I was just feeding back comments that were made about it from someone that has used Edit and EFILive, there is nothing wrong with that.
It is no different to any other post on here where somebody says they compared HPT to Tunercat and Tunercat sucked, that is an opinion and around here it does not take long to find one of those posts, but there will be no padlock on that one.

Black02SS
08-30-2005, 02:01 AM
Here is a quick comparison that I did of what is known about the two products. If any of this is incorrect, please let me know and I will update it. Maybe we can get a nice "ACTUAL" comparison summary that will help people.

You must have adobe Acrobat Reader (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html) to view.

HPT vs. EFI Live Comparison (http://home.insightbb.com/~black02ss/EFILIVEvsHPT.pdf)

I have had both products and tried to make the comparison as un-biased as possible. Like I have mentioned above, if there is misinformation posted, let me know and I will correct it or update other items as needed.

gameover
08-30-2005, 02:42 AM
maybe everyone should post their allegiances before they post an unbiased opinion... :eyes:

Hundreds of tunershops and thousands of individuals are tuning vehicles everyday with HPT software. We are committed to innovation and staying on the leading edge of development and features. I think our track record speaks for itself in this regard no matter what people "believe is true". So often on internet forums opinion is portrayed as fact, and truth is overlooked for the sake of argument and grandstanding.

All companies make various promises and use marketing and pricing to sell products, i don't see this debate as being any different to that. So one guy gives something away for free... obviously there is a reason for that draw your own conclusions as to why. No doubt we have made a number of feature additions in 2.0 designed to combat a few things the others have. But have we just added features so we can tick boxes in a comparison sheet? No. Does efilive automatically develop everything we have? No. Would our customers prefer we didn't keep up to date with what most people agree are good ideas? Would efilive customers prefer they didn't release a new 2bar that was competitive with ours? Or prefer they didn't do the autotune feature? Would our customers prefer we didn't add advanced spark PIDs? and would efilive customers prefer they didn't add the idle PIDs too?

It is the goal of companies selling into the same market to differentiate their products and focus on what they believe and are told are the important things.

To say HPT and EFIlive learn from each other is both true and false. Neither company is stupid enough to ignore obvious customer feedback or respond to innovations delivered by the other. Also, both companies show the ability to innovate in both differnt and similar areas. At the end of the day the great news is that the end customer wins no matter what happens.

Like many on this board, i am amazed these threads go the same way everytime.

Chris...

gameover
08-30-2005, 02:44 AM
Here is a quick comparison that I did of what is known about the two products. If any of this is incorrect, please let me know and I will update it. Maybe we can get a nice "ACTUAL" comparison summary that will help people.

You must have adobe Acrobat Reader (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html) to view.

HPT vs. EFI Live Comparison (http://home.insightbb.com/~black02ss/EFILIVEvsHPT.pdf)

I have had both products and tried to make the comparison as un-biased as possible. Like I have mentioned above, if there is misinformation posted, let me know and I will correct it or update other items as needed.

amazing how you managed to list more line items for efilive with yes in them than HPT. I bet i can make one with more for HPT... as someone with obvious alleginaces to EFIlive, what IS your point?

Black02SS
08-30-2005, 03:04 AM
amazing how you managed to list more line items for efilive with yes in them than HPT. I bet i can make one with more for HPT... as someone with obvious alleginaces to EFIlive, what IS your point?
First of all I didn't ask for any smartass remarks. I made a post and stated that if there is anything that was incorrect or needed added/changed, then let me know and I would do so. I am so tired of seeing these threads get deleted that I figured it was time to make a comparison in ONE place that outlined the differences from one to another. Nor anywhere in my post did I state how much better Live is over HPT nor did I say anything against HPT. You guys seem like eveytime something is posted that shows the benifits over your product, you get upset. I am not wanting to do anyting of that matter but only make a true comparison of one over the other so we can stop having threads that end up in bash fests and get locked.

Is it my fault that what we know about 2.0 and its features isn't fully disclosed? Is it my fault that the MAIN points listed from one product to the other one has more then the other? What IS YOUR POINT?

gameover
08-30-2005, 03:10 AM
First of all I didn't ask for any smartass remarks. I made a post and stated that if there is anything that was incorrect or needed added/changed, then let me know and I would do so. I am so tired of seeing these threads get deleted that I figured it was time to make a comparison in ONE place that outlined the differences from one to another. Nor anywhere in my post did I state how much better Live is over HPT nor did I say anything against HPT. You guys seem like eveytime something is posted that shows the benifits over your product, you get upset. I am not wanting to do anyting of that matter but only make a true comparison of one over the other so we can stop having threads that end up in bash fests and get locked.

Is it my fault that what we know about 2.0 and its features isn't fully disclosed? Is it my fault that the MAIN points listed from one product to the other one has more then the other? What IS YOUR POINT?

you speak it like you actually believe it... and yet you are still looking for the negative. lets just agree that no matter what i do or say i'm sure your spreadsheet will always have more greens for efilive. there is no true, equal, fair comparison - that is my point.

Chris...

Black02SS
08-30-2005, 03:18 AM
you speak it like you actually believe it... and yet you are still looking for the negative. lets just agree that no matter what i do or say i'm sure your spreadsheet will always have more greens for efilive. there is no true, equal, fair comparison - that is my point.

Chris...

Chris,
If I wanted to make the sheet look like live had more options then HPT, then I would have omitted the itmes that HPT has that live does not. In my post I said two times that if there is anything ANYONE wanted to add or have changed, then I would glady do so. I did not make it to make one look better then the other as that was not my intention. If you would like to offer up some suggestions of items that I missed, PLEASE let me know and I will gladly revise the sheet. All I am trying to do here is what happened anyway. Why can't there ever be a HPTvsLive thread that doesn't result into a pissing contest or get locked? I made a post but it got deleted that had huge letters and stated PLEASE DO NOT GET THIS THREAD LOCKED, but it was removed. If you have noticed I have stayed out of these types of threads lately due to it resulting like this one. It is know which program I personally feel is more suited for me. All I am trying to do is help educated people of the differences between one product to the next as our opinions of each product aren't allowed here to an extent.

There are things I don't like about Live that HPT has, and vice versa. Why is it hard to have a civil adult conversation about the benifits of one over the other.

If there is anything you would like to discuss, like mentioned before, please send me a PM. I'll gladly have a conversation outside of the thread so it doesn't get locked/closed.

gameover
08-30-2005, 03:47 AM
Chris,
If I wanted to make the sheet look like live had more options then HPT, then I would have omitted the itmes that HPT has that live does not. In my post I said two times that if there is anything ANYONE wanted to add or have changed, then I would glady do so. I did not make it to make one look better then the other as that was not my intention. If you would like to offer up some suggestions of items that I missed, PLEASE let me know and I will gladly revise the sheet. All I am trying to do here is what happened anyway. Why can't there ever be a HPTvsLive thread that doesn't result into a pissing contest or get locked? I made a post but it got deleted that had huge letters and stated PLEASE DO NOT GET THIS THREAD LOCKED, but it was removed. If you have noticed I have stayed out of these types of threads lately due to it resulting like this one. It is know which program I personally feel is more suited for me. All I am trying to do is help educated people of the differences between one product to the next as our opinions of each product aren't allowed here to an extent.

There are things I don't like about Live that HPT has, and vice versa. Why is it hard to have a civil adult conversation about the benifits of one over the other.

If there is anything you would like to discuss, like mentioned before, please send me a PM. I'll gladly have a conversation outside of the thread so it doesn't get locked/closed.

I don't want to waste any more of your time or mine by beginning a journey to a place that, in my opinion, doesn't exist. This is my last reply to this thread as i don't think i can add anything further of value or interest to people considering which product to buy.

Chris..

Black02SS
08-30-2005, 04:25 AM
I have updated the comparison to include vehicle types.

HPT vs. EFI Live Comparison (http://home.insightbb.com/~black02ss/EFILIVEvsHPT.pdf)

TAQuickness
08-30-2005, 06:43 AM
The links aren't working for me Black

Black02SS
08-30-2005, 07:02 AM
Dunno, they are working on my end...

Bill Bowling
08-30-2005, 07:07 AM
Dunno, they are working on my end...

Link does not work for me either.

Bill
:drive:

Black02SS
08-30-2005, 07:09 AM
Really? I just clicked on it again and is fine. Its not on my personal computer so I know its not on my end. Right click save as maybe?

Black02SS
08-30-2005, 07:36 AM
I have made another link that should work as well. I have also updated the doc to include more items.

Link1 (http://home.insightbb.com/~black02ss/EFILIVEvsHPT.pdf)

Link2 (http://home.insightbb.com/~herrieschopper/EFILIVEvsHPT.pdf)

gameover
08-30-2005, 07:57 AM
just to correct the info you have in relation to 2.0:

- custom pids = yes
- not sure what you mean by link between scanner and data but we can aplly histograms to editor data and also automatically create histograms (with correct axis labelling) from the editor tables.
- semi customizable guages doesn't rate on anyone not sure why it is there
- we get a red yes for full reflash?
- we support every LS1 from 97-06 (except very, very early 97's)
- also support every single OS for 2bar and 1bar SD (no need to upgrade or anything, just click the button).
- have LS2 in pre-production release
- start 4cyl beta very soon
- our EIO has 2 outputs as well as 4 inputs
- have a lower cost non-EIO option
- have USB in pre-production testing (with LS2, LS1, V6)
- since you are listing custom OS stuff, we have Boost Enrichment (2/3 bar SD) and also TPS modifier (1bar SD)
- all our enhancements have dual spark map support for SD and where relevant loses the secondary VE
- as of Apr 15th 2005 software updates became free

this just corrects the short list you have. I hope you can see why our list or others lists might be different and obviously emphasize features that we believe are important and also we know are differentiators of our products. I am sticking to your list as this is what i think you are defining as "important to you" and not necessarily important to others or tunershops (eg. i have never, ever seen a tunershop use the dashboard display or care about if they can load custom images, in fact many ask how to turn that stuff off!!). Also, keep in mind that our company goals and directions may not necessarily be the same as other companies as we already support V6, LS2 and have announced 4 cyl development etc.

Over and out.

Chris...

HumpinSS
08-30-2005, 08:10 AM
I dont see a problem with his spreadsheet all of the information is factual about the features each product has and doesnt have. Is itour fault Live's colum is a little greener than the HPT colum. Is it my fault we have had custom pids since v6 that have carried over into V7, custom histgrams since V5 (Welcome to 2000-01). Is it my fault EFILive allows you to get rid of excel, filter data and hide cells counts where 1.7 doesnt offer this and in beta 2.0.5 its still broke or halfway working.

These threads go to shit because most of the times someone comes along and posts about this great feature HPT has and what not then the EFILive crew makes it well aware the features are currently available TODAY. If you dont beleive that dload the demo and look for yourself. With all the whining being done and all the misinformation you claim I wouldve added to the list of features in HPT's defense, instead you cry foul and offer no information to back up your claims :eyes:

gameover
08-30-2005, 09:00 AM
I dont see a problem with his spreadsheet all of the information is factual about the features each product has and doesnt have. Is itour fault Live's colum is a little greener than the HPT colum. Is it my fault we have had custom pids since v6 that have carried over into V7, custom histgrams since V5 (Welcome to 2000-01). Is it my fault EFILive allows you to get rid of excel, filter data and hide cells counts where 1.7 doesnt offer this and in beta 2.0.5 its still broke or halfway working.

These threads go to shit because most of the times someone comes along and posts about this great feature HPT has and what not then the EFILive crew makes it well aware the features are currently available TODAY. If you dont beleive that dload the demo and look for yourself. With all the whining being done and all the misinformation you claim I wouldve added to the list of features in HPT's defense, instead you cry foul and offer no information to back up your claims :eyes:

i just corrected the items listed, nothing more. and yet another twist to the argument and throw in some name calling to ensure you and the "crew" stay on top... :eyes:

are you really trying to convince anyone of anything or just beating your chest to show efilive what a great soldier you are?

foff667
08-30-2005, 09:07 AM
Sort has a leg up, are you kidding?, have you used EFILive V7 scanner?.
I spoke to a workshop last week that is using EFILive V7 and they were shown V2.0 as a demo because they want LS2 support (whch EFILive does not offer), they said the scanner in V2.0 has got NOTHING on EFILive still.
The gauge display in V2.0 is about on par with EFILive V4, yep V4!!, the charts still look the same, he didn't know about the PID selection but currently EFLive V7 has over 250 PID's to log, not sure how that compares to V2.0, V7 has 10 totally configurable MAPs (has had for months), very powerful data filtering, not too mention your logged data is traced back into the tuning program, I don't know if V2.0 does this?.

Have you used hpt 2.0? I will admit efi lives scanning programs have been very good for a very long time...considering they've been around for 10 years I'd hope they'd be able to keep a leg up on the rest of the scanners out there...again I reiterate 2.0 will close a huge gap...as far as the gauge display who cares? The only ones the use the gauge display on a regular basis are conversion people...& imo they will be happy with the changes to the gauge display in 2.0. I havent used the gauge display in nearly a year. As far as maps tuners has 8 & will be configurable as well...data filtering as well.

I am not sure about HPT here, but EFILive has about 650 tables/parameters to edit. As for the free updates, EFILive has always offered this, they didn't need to be pressured into it.

hptuners was out before efi lives tuning tool...ls1edit was their main competetor & did/still does charge for 6 months of updates, hptuners was/is just keeping up with the times.

I think if you look past the software differences then yes the license schemes can work out better for some using the HPT system where with others it works out better to go with EFILive, I guess it depends what types of vehicles you need to tune and how many.
I didn't want to turn this into a bashing session but the original posters questions were simply not answered correctly!!.

he asked for pro's cons of each, I stated what I know & have seen in both...obviously you have something against the guys at hpt and maybe should keep your bashing to pm's with those guys.

Super Sport X2
08-30-2005, 09:12 AM
I dont see a problem with his spreadsheet all of the information is factual about the features each product has and doesnt have. Is itour fault Live's colum is a little greener than the HPT colum. Is it my fault we have had custom pids since v6 that have carried over into V7, custom histgrams since V5 (Welcome to 2000-01). Is it my fault EFILive allows you to get rid of excel, filter data and hide cells counts where 1.7 doesnt offer this and in beta 2.0.5 its still broke or halfway working.

These threads go to shit because most of the times someone comes along and posts about this great feature HPT has and what not then the EFILive crew makes it well aware the features are currently available TODAY. If you dont beleive that dload the demo and look for yourself. With all the whining being done and all the misinformation you claim I wouldve added to the list of features in HPT's defense, instead you cry foul and offer no information to back up your claims :eyes:


Actually I do have a problem with that spreadsheet and your comments.
We have a dedicated thread for feature requests.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?board=vcmsuitefeatures

90% of the wonderful things you are touting have either:

1) Not been asked for by our users.
2) Have only been asked for by only 2-3 users.
3) Have been asked for by users and others replied with no thanks.

So either get busy requesting, or don't complain if it never shows up.

Humpinss, Black02SS, nobody asked for your comments on 2.0 or any variant of it.
Neither of you are beta testers, nor have you seen the full capabilities of 2.0
It was released early in pre beta to allow some of our customers the ability to tune/scan the LS2 ECM and TCM. Which is a lot more than I can say for the other guys.

With that said, if you guys think we are busy fretting over minor features that nobody is asking for then you are in a world of hurt. We are busy adding new things like additional model support. Maybe you guys are stuck in the LS1 only world, but a lot of our individual and tunershop customers are busy getting geared up for next years models......

You guys don't buy new cars??


Ken

Magnus
08-30-2005, 09:32 AM
You list undockable dashboard maps as a comparison? What is that? Can you make an item any more EFI Live biased?

Here's a few for you guys.. Put these in the comparison:

Editor:
True MDI View. HP Tuners allows you to move any window anywhere you like in th parent VCM Editor window. EFI Live locks your navigator window to the left.
Ability to toggle units with the right click of the mouse on any parameter.
Ability to change precision with the right click of the mouse on any parameter.
A DTC list that is all inclusive. EFI Lives DTC list is seperated between 2 seperate lists.
The ability to compare ANY files, regardless of OS. EFI Live only lets you compare files with the same OS.
A much more modern look than EFI Lives software.
Useable task bars that are easy to use for new users.
The ability to view the table, 2d or 3d graphs alone, or split in any table display.
The ability to undock table displays for dual monitor systems.
History logs in tree format, Not generic TEXT lists like EFI Live.
Change logs in tree format, Not generic TEXT lists like EFI Live.
Compare logs in tree format, Not generic TEXT lists like EFI Live.
Ability to recommend history logs for old files as well as delete old entries.
Ability to right click buttons in the editor for copy/paste/import without having to open up the tables.
Ability to right click any parameter in the editor for a 1 click undo.
Graphical color display to show differences, changes and such for main view as well as file comparison view. EFI Live doesn't have this as they can only compare files of the same OS.

Scanner:
True MDI View. HP Tuners allows you to move and have open any window in the scanner. Arrange your view as you wish. Black02SS hides this comparison by listing it as an "undockable map" to show favortism for EFI Live.
Ability to change histograms while scanning.
Ability to change charts while scanning.
Ability to change gauges while scanning.
Ability to change any unit value while scanning.
Abilty to change config files while scanning.
A much more modern look than EFI Lives software.
Useable task bars that are easy to use for new users.

Magnus
08-30-2005, 09:43 AM
Also, since this thread is geared toward first time users..

I've attached a cople of screenshots of what our toolbars look like for the VCM Editor and Scanner.

Note, on our VCM Scanner shot, I have a histogram window and a table display window open.. at the same time. Now you may think that is normal and to be expected, but Black02SS does not and will try to convince you otherwise with misguided information.

Also, in our editor, Look how easy it is to get to your parameters such as Engine, Trans, Speedo, etc. etc.. We put it all up at the top in an organized format for you. And if you don't like that format, we also give you a navigator that lists the parameters in a tree display as well. Again having both of these things is somethign Black02SS will probably try to lead you to believe are useless.

Lets see these same exact screenshots with EFI Live. Obviously the scanner one will be impossible to recreate due to the fact that they don't let you have multiple windows open at the same time.

HumpinSS
08-30-2005, 09:45 AM
90% of the wonderful things you are touting have either:

1) Not been asked for by our users.
2) Have only been asked for by only 2-3 users.
3) Have been asked for by users and others replied with no thanks.



I can pull up a thread on HPT where I asked to see decimal places in the AFR error Histogram and was told by Keith it wasnt needed and why would we want that feature. Your users have asked for a MAF error Histogram for a long time now. I dont see it in 1.7 or is it that a way to get people to upgrade and pay for 2.0 whos upgrade subscription expired before April 15th. What about the bug in 1.7 where you lose your whole log file if you turn off the car before stopping the scanner. Its a Vb6 runtime error that has been asked to be fixed. To my knowledge its still there. How about the -100 and +100 bug that skewed Histogram error % for LTFT, people wrote pearl scripts and excel sheets to get rid of this data re-inventing the wheel. Are all the v6 guys ecstatic about their features and what has been added of late.


You all run around here acting like Balck02SS and I type HPT 2.0 in a search and find all the threads to add our input. Its the cheerleaders acting like HPT is the end all be all who ONLY have used ONE program. Those are the ones who show the bias when the tout how much better HPT is than the competition. Most havent even dloaded the demo version of EFILive to check it out :eyes: This is where I will give my input and correct the misinformation I see comming frmo biased parties.

Yes you did release 2.0 to a few people for beta testing and I commend you for doing such as it is almost a day late a dollar short. I have seen specific screenshots of 2.0.5 and know what works and doesnt work.

A plus to add to the HPT list Black02SS is their compare feature can compare different OS'd vehicles.

Frankly I dont see what the big deal is anyway. Both companies have great products just one suits my needs a little better at the moment and I am not afraid to say so. Glorified editiors and scanners is all it boils down to and with a vision anyone here who can code can churn out a decent workable product.

Magnus
08-30-2005, 09:49 AM
Another thing I remembered for your compare list..

VCM Scanner 2.0 has the ability to define charts, gauges, and histograms against generic sensors instead of more specific PID's.. Of course, this may not be that applicable if you use EFI Live because of the limited vehicle type support but with a product like ours that supports so many late model GM Vehicles, it comes in handy.

Also, I'm gonna take a stab before this thread gets locked and say that Black02SS will not make the correct changes/additions to the compare log as it will put too many pro's in the HPT list, or he will come up with reasons of why they are not valid comparisons, or somehow EFI Live already has a similar version of what I listed.

gameover
08-30-2005, 10:00 AM
Are all the v6 guys ecstatic about their features and what has been added of late.


apparently efilive has something to offer? Or are you just trying to propagate yet another myth batted about by our V6 competitor... (last i heard they were trying to sell out).



Glorified editiors and scanners is all it boils down to and with a vision anyone here who can code can churn out a decent workable product.

go for it, it's so easy to do and you have all the info right? then you can start your own company and defend it against misinformation...

SideStep
08-30-2005, 10:08 AM
are you really trying to convince anyone of anything or just beating your chest to show efilive what a great soldier you are?


:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

HumpinSS
08-30-2005, 10:14 AM
go for it, it's so easy to do and you have all the info right? then you can start your own company and defend it against misinformation...


If i wanted the info i wouldve started out where you and all the others started out. I have a BS in Comp Sci so I am pretty sure it wouldnt be to hard to figure out, after all you did it...

Magnus
08-30-2005, 10:19 AM
Very modern look you got goin on there. lol

http://www.hptuners.com/pub/vcmscanner2.jpg

Pro Stock John
08-30-2005, 11:33 AM
Addendum:

There is positive and negative selling.

I like positive selling (We do this, it does that), not negative selling (Their stuff can't this or that).

These threads remind me of the last election. And I did not like that election one bit.