Fueling & Injection - Can an F-body be converted to use E-85 fuel?




squirrels
09-01-2005, 11:24 AM
Anyone monkeyed around with it? I'm sure SOMEONE on here has done so for race purposes. What would it take?


badass 2002 z28
09-01-2005, 12:11 PM
I've been wondering the same thing. The "tuning" part shouldn't be that much different. I'd be interested to find out the impact of running it on certain parts..like the injectors, fuel pump/fuel filter...

RyanJ
09-01-2005, 12:21 PM
new injectors, rails, and pump (maybe). I know specifically that the trucks' rails and injectors are different and qualified for E85.


BLK85
09-01-2005, 12:41 PM
Also piston, and rings im not sure though. But either way I dont think its worth the effort and money.

Wnts2Go10O
09-01-2005, 03:32 PM
actually it prolly would be, 15-20% in power, cleaner burning, cheaper in the long run, burns better, etc, etc

firechicken2k
09-01-2005, 04:12 PM
what is e-85 gas .. ?
85 octane? :confused:

frcefed98
09-01-2005, 04:14 PM
Ethanol/Gas blend, 105 octane.

Sandmann120
09-01-2005, 04:31 PM
One of the biggest problems is figuring out where to find it for sale.

JD1969
09-01-2005, 04:58 PM
Also piston, and rings im not sure though. But either way I dont think its worth the effort and money.
From what I understand the pistons and rings are fine, it's the rubber parts in the fuel system that are the problem.

SSucese
09-01-2005, 09:51 PM
One of the biggest problems is figuring out where to find it for sale.


Maybe this can help you out.....http://www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php

HPP
09-01-2005, 11:00 PM
You know, a few months back I was looking into Ethonal conversion and asking in the Fueling forum and there was no interest and some anti-interest even. Seems rather funny now. lol

Yeah, fuel tank (need metal), fuel lines, injectors, pump, filter, basically anything that the fuel touches needs to be metal. The internals are fine.

The real trick is the tune. I'm not sure where to even begin looking into tuning that. And of course fuel supply is an issue too.

horist
09-01-2005, 11:33 PM
would prolly be cheaper to sell your car and buy a civic.....

HPP
09-02-2005, 10:56 AM
would prolly be cheaper to sell your car and buy a civic.....

Why do you say that? What research have you done on the matter to come to that conclusion? Just curious. :)

Phoenix 5.7
09-02-2005, 04:32 PM
it is methanol that eats rubber, the biggest hurdle with ethanol/e85 is the extra fuel required.

MA1384
09-02-2005, 06:20 PM
nahhh... screw that... steam power guys! You could just burn the money for fuel! Eliminate the whole step of buying fuel. :jest:

black_z
09-03-2005, 02:32 PM
Im looking into building an E85 powered BBC within the next year or 2. My school does a lot of work with E85.

NoOne
09-03-2005, 09:22 PM
The F-body is a little different from converting a normal passenger car.

Fuel pump(material breakdown) and the lines going to the injector rails.

Do the rails need to change, deppends on how they get it to start in the cold. Usually anything over 50 percent ethanol will not start in sub 50 degree weather so maybe they use heated rails.

Other than that, just a new tune.

I am seriously thinking of doing it to the C5 since I can get E85 cheap, not to mention you can make it yourself.

Our next car will run on E85.

Federal regs call for alot more things to be done to the car including a special filler tube so morons cannot syphon the fuel and drink it :bang:

I'm not kidding either, its a rule. For home conversion though just change the hard parts that would get hurt and retune it.

I'm going to rejet the carb in the tractor for E98 and see how it runs.

Its not hard and its not rocket science either. Deppends how cheap you can get E85, if you live in the plain states the stuff is dirt cheap, like 1.70 a gallon. Here in Michigan they rape you on it but I have a wholesaler down the street from me, plus as I said, get yourself a still and you can make it yourself.

horist
09-03-2005, 10:03 PM
Federal regs call for alot more things to be done to the car including a special filler tube so morons cannot syphon the fuel and drink it :bang:




I thought that our cars already had that? I know Grand Prix's do

black_z
09-04-2005, 11:54 AM
The F-body is a little different from converting a normal passenger car.

Fuel pump(material breakdown) and the lines going to the injector rails.

Do the rails need to change, deppends on how they get it to start in the cold. Usually anything over 50 percent ethanol will not start in sub 50 degree weather so maybe they use heated rails.

Other than that, just a new tune.

I am seriously thinking of doing it to the C5 since I can get E85 cheap, not to mention you can make it yourself.

Our next car will run on E85.

Federal regs call for alot more things to be done to the car including a special filler tube so morons cannot syphon the fuel and drink it :bang:

I'm not kidding either, its a rule. For home conversion though just change the hard parts that would get hurt and retune it.

I'm going to rejet the carb in the tractor for E98 and see how it runs.

Its not hard and its not rocket science either. Deppends how cheap you can get E85, if you live in the plain states the stuff is dirt cheap, like 1.70 a gallon. Here in Michigan they rape you on it but I have a wholesaler down the street from me, plus as I said, get yourself a still and you can make it yourself.

Its funny how we have been conditioned to think 1.70 is "dirt cheap" There are quite a few ethanol plants around me and E85 goes for about 1.80/gallon right now.

MA1384
09-04-2005, 01:09 PM
what do you guys think about propane?

NoOne
09-04-2005, 02:10 PM
FFV vehicles have an extra oxygen sensor to fix the gas/ethanol mix.

1.70 is cheap considering todays prices and more so considering this stuff is 105-106 octane, its crazy stuff for FI cars.

Phoenix 5.7
09-04-2005, 03:02 PM
you can't directly compare the prices, cause ethanol vs gas is not 1:1 as far as consumption. its more like 1.5 or 2:1 ratio.

NoOne
09-04-2005, 05:50 PM
Your trading 10 percent worse fuel mileage for a huge savings in cost.

HectorLS1
09-04-2005, 05:51 PM
What ever it is, its time for a change. The middle east can't have us by the balls as they do now.

GTOwnd
09-05-2005, 04:54 AM
They sell ethanol at some of the pumps out here in vegas... I'd be very interested to know exactly what is needed to run it safely... i wouldnt mind paying for some dyno time to retune the car on 105 octane!! So is it just the physical parts that the fuel touches? and then the tune? More information on this would be greatly appreciated.

NoOne
09-05-2005, 08:27 AM
I'll get a specific list tommorow on what we change on your E85 cars and post it up.

trix5032
09-05-2005, 12:43 PM
someone needs to make a kit for this. because paying $40 for 13 gallons really really sucks

wrencher
09-05-2005, 10:37 PM
you can't directly compare the prices, cause ethanol vs gas is not 1:1 as far as consumption. its more like 1.5 or 2:1 ratio.

This is the key Phoenx is right on the money.
There are plenty of flex fuel vehicles on the road today.
The PCM has a sensor that tells the PCM the amount of alky in the fuel. It adjusts the pulse width accordingly. The regular gas now a days is at about 10%. E85=85%.
Ask alcohol racers there putting in twice the fuel for the power. It would be about the same thing in you daily .
The ratio is close to 2:1 to gasoline, so you'll actually burn more fuel for the same milage. Not the answer to the problem:bang:

NoOne
09-06-2005, 05:34 AM
Wrencher,

A properly setup E85 production car gets 10 percent worse fuel economy than its gas counterpart.

It is not anywhere near 2:1 for any FFV on the road today.

wrencher
09-06-2005, 07:54 AM
That is not what fleets of these things are getting out there . Maybe on paper in the engineers perfect world is that 10%? achieved but not in the real world. It still is not the answer. For performance yes alcohol has its advantages, but the upgrades to the fuel system to run it $$$

ActionJack
09-06-2005, 11:08 AM
Sounds like the mods needed are negligable and the only real concerns are where to get the tune and 2nd where to get E85.

For a higher octane and a bit more HP with a clean running fuel, I am all in. And, if I lose a bit in MPG "so what" the costs are still for E85.

Also, a Civic would NEVER be an option over my WS6.


:cheers:

HPP
09-06-2005, 02:25 PM
Sounds like the mods needed are negligable and the only real concerns are where to get the tune and 2nd where to get E85.

Exactly. And the tune for it seems to be like an urban legend at this point. No real data ever seems to turn up when digging for it.

NoOne, any luck on the info you said you'd put together?

NoOne
09-06-2005, 03:01 PM
Our E85 guy is out west testing. We, as in people who drive them, get a true 10 percent in freeway driving. I sent him an email and am waiting to hear back from him.

I work for DCX in Chassis systems which is where a good portion of E85 developement goes on.

Short answer today, at least for our vehicles, is the modules(pump, level sensor, etc) need changing for robustness, tuning of course, and if you want true FFV then the sensor equipment. EPA rules changed regarding fuel lines so most fuel lines on new cars(05,06) are coated internally and right now I'm only assuming that they will work without change.

One thing you need to remember, things that need to change for FFV and things that need to change to make your car run on E85 are two totally different things, as a end user you can get away with alot more than an OEM can.

As soon as I have the info I'll post it up, it'll just be in general based on the persons personal knowledge and of course, no reflection what so ever of what you should do to your own vehicle, nor is it a for sure list, just someplace to start your own research.

Doski
09-07-2005, 04:01 PM
I have driven my car with 25% mix with e85 fore a wile now......and it runs perfeckt, no problems at all. My friend has ran his z28 with 50% mix fore even longer time with no trouble.

As long as you dont drive with 100% you dont have to convert anything.....but i wouldent go more than a mix of 25%-50%.
one thing that will help if you want to run more e85 is to install AFPR to raise fuel pressure because e85 needs more fuel to burn. And it has higher octane so you wont get any KR. And the rubber parts are safe.... e85 does not eat rubber, and e85 is not korrosive like methanol......

thesoundandthefury
09-10-2005, 11:00 AM
One other thing to consider about all the reports of people getting worse gas mileage out of E85, is the fact that most modern production engines have a static compression ratio in the 9:1 to 10:1 range. I've talked to several guys who are old enough to remember the days of "high test" fuel, and all of them have said that they saw more mileage when they built their motors with higher compression. I'm wondering what the difference in mileage would be if someone were to take an LS1 or an LT1 and mill the heads or run longer rods to get the motor somewhere in the 12:1 compression area...

Phoenix64
09-10-2005, 05:40 PM
I ran E-85 in my car for 4-5 months.

I got about 220 miles per tank vs 310 on gasoline. Even with the timing bumped. It just doesn't have the fuel content of gasoline.

It ran great, but I stopped using it when it went from 1.40$ to 2.50$, in just a couple of weeks.

oange ss
09-10-2005, 10:06 PM
ethanol has less energy vs reg gas, that's why milage sux and the higher octane rating aint gonna do shit for you

gametech
09-11-2005, 02:09 AM
Anyone who claims only a 10% decrease in mpg with e-85 is either lying or just stupid. Even with a more optimal compression ratio, the real difference is closer to 30%. It only takes a few minutes calculating f/a ratio and btu's of energy per mass of fuel to determine this.

V8_DSM_V8again
09-11-2005, 03:41 AM
Anyone who claims only a 10% decrease in mpg with e-85 is either lying or just stupid. Even with a more optimal compression ratio, the real difference is closer to 30%. It only takes a few minutes calculating f/a ratio and btu's of energy per mass of fuel to determine this.


I'm not stupid and not lying.

If I am cruising in overdrive or shift and rev for economy on the side streets I only loose about 10% mpg over stock.

You guys are forgetting something and need to repeat HS chemistry...

Look at the air fuel ratios for cruise and those for best power on gasoline. ~14.x cruise... ~12.x power.

Alot different right?

There is a bigger difference between the best MPG lean cruise for E85 and the best power AFR.. If you are a led foot you will probably see a 30-40% reduction in MPG.. If you use cruise and od like me and keep the rpms down on the street you will get 10%..

a increase of 1/2 a point CR will bring it to a 20% less mpg when lead footed

E10 (most pump gas these days) vs E85.. These are WOT graphs.. The BSFC's at cruise rpms with low throttle are ALOT closer.. ESP at 10.32:1 C:R

9.7:1 Compression

http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/55019/fig30.jpg

10.32:1 Compression... Hmm at 1750 RPM or under and the BSFC looks pretty close between both fuels. Like I said more compression... I was able to increase compression, Increase boost AND increase timing over alot over a 93 octane tune. My E85 boost and ingiton curve is alot like a freinds VP116 tune..

http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/55019/fig36.jpg

Since I tuned specifically for E85 and run a wide band I think I do as good or better than some OE FFV's.. All of them have a capacitance sensor to "count" hydrocarbons and calculate the fuel mix flowing thru the line in real time..
However... Not all of them have WIDEBAND 02 feedback..

If I floor it and hit 35+psi and row thru the gears.... Well ask the guys in the 10's or under on here how much fuel they go thru on a 1/4 run.... I burn a bit more.. When I dyno I will have a true BSFC.. I am guessing 25-30% more.

Steel Chicken
09-20-2005, 08:24 AM
bump for a good thread. I am also very interested in an E85 conversion.
simple chemistry lesson though, ethanol contains 40% LESS energy per gallon than Gasoline, BUT because it contains its own oxygen, you run a much lower AFR. Properly tuned, and all other things being, equal Ethanol will make about 10% less power than gas, and get around 30-40% less mileage per gallon. Dont beleive anyone who says otherwise, you can't get more energy per gallon, because its just not there. HOWEVER!! Because Ethanol has an octane rating of 100-105, you can run MORE compression and more timing.

From a cost savings point of view, its only worth it if you can get E85 at least 50% cheaper than gas, say less than $2, compared to $3 for gas.

I just called a local station in Denver, they sell it for $2.39 NOT worth it in the long run. Unless of course, you just want to flip off the oil sheiks.

Sinister Performance
09-25-2005, 10:10 PM
Due to the recent application for license to sell E85 by one of our local gas stations, I have gained interest in E85 and its potential application to my vehicles.

Like many here, I have heard many rumors about E85. Everything from people saying you needed to change your entire fuel system to people saying you didn't have to change a thing besides computer programming. As with anything, information related to this topic seems to have some politics mixed in.

So I decided to drive 45 miles to purchase some E85 so I could conduct my experiments.

The test I have set up comprises of 4 glass jar containers, each filled with E85 fuel. The jars contain:

-stock 80's GM MPFI fuel pump
-black rubber and blue composition O-rings and a peice of the plastic baffle that is in a stock 80's GM fuel tank
-Goodyear Fuel Injection spec fuel hose
-a peice of regular steel fuel line

Phase 1 of the test is going to involve allowing these materials to soak, completely immersed in the E85 fuel for an extended time period, about a week.

Phase 2 will involve removing surviving materials from the fuel and allowed to dry in open shop air for a period of a couple of days to observe if any corrosion occurs with reaction to ambient air humidity.

Phase 3 will involve reimmersing of the materials in the fuel and heat being applied to the fuel and materials for an extended period of time. I want to see if there are any temperature-activated ill effects that might result from the normal heating and cooling cycle of the fuel system as it operates on the vehicle in the real world.

Phase 4 will be identical to Phase 2 in that after Phase 3 all materials will be allowed to dry to see if drastic temperature changes might affect the way the fuel might penetrate the materials and what might happen after the fuel evaporates.

I will keep you all posted on my results.

---------------------------------------------

I started this experiment 48 hours ago and have some results to report. The fuel in the jars that contain the new goodyear fuel inj spec fuel hose and stock fuel pump has taken on a yellow tint. The fuel in the other two jars is still as clear (no color) as fresh E85. It should be noted that the fuel pump used in the test has the stock GM rubber sleeve still on it so deductive reasoning would dictate that is the component being attacked by the E85 fuel. Also, none of the rubber items show physical signs of deterioration at this point.

trix5032
09-25-2005, 11:17 PM
badass idea! i hope someone sorts all this out... id much rather be paying the farmers of america for fuel!

Steel Chicken
09-26-2005, 08:12 AM
Sinister Performance, you are a hero. Let us know what your well thought-out experiment shows.

Runn
09-26-2005, 04:48 PM
I run my car on 50% E85 without any problems, Just had to increase fuel with Hptuners.... Now i am testing a little more agressive timing.

brianmf
09-26-2005, 07:35 PM
The test I have set up comprises of 4 glass jar containers, each filled with E85 fuel. The jars contain...
Here's a similar study that was conducted in Australia (albeit with E20). Might give you some ideas for you study.

Another thought, sometime during the late 80s/early 90s (i think) vehicles were starting to be designed with 10% ethanol in mind. I believe your 1980 fuel pump may pre-date this period, and thus give inaccurate results(unless you want to know E85 effects on 80s specific materials.)

99SS-T
09-26-2005, 07:44 PM
So if rubber is a no no with this shit then i couldnt use the 8an lines i just put on the car that are braided SS with rubber inside. Damn. Not that there is any E85 stations around my but the thought is nice! GL


John

Steel Chicken
09-27-2005, 08:03 AM
I run my car on 50% E85 without any problems, Just had to increase fuel with Hptuners.... Now i am testing a little more agressive timing.

the issue is not that it wont run, but that in 5+ years your entire fuel system will be corroded

BURN'EM
09-27-2005, 04:19 PM
I just don't see E85 and nitrous i like the spary but don't want to chance having that stuff left in my tank, on a dragway blast. Correct me if i'm wrong.

brianmf
09-27-2005, 06:00 PM
Doh!!! Forgot the link in my other post.
http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/2000hours-vehicle-fleet/index.html

ViperX
09-27-2005, 06:50 PM
I think any car can be made to run it and i heard in certain quantities in stock form it can be ok just a bit corrosive..

Sinister Performance
09-28-2005, 12:51 AM
Approx 4 days have passed since I started this experiment. Earlier today I removed the covers from the 4 jars. Within 1 hour of removing the covers I noticed the fuel in the jars that contained the rubber lines and fuel pump became cloudy. It was quite humid today so it appears humidity is a factor in how the E85 reacts with rubber. So far no change to the O-rings, plastic baffle, or steel fuel line.

Runn
09-28-2005, 02:28 AM
Approx 4 days have passed since I started this experiment. Earlier today I removed the covers from the 4 jars. Within 1 hour of removing the covers I noticed the fuel in the jars that contained the rubber lines and fuel pump became cloudy. It was quite humid today so it appears humidity is a factor in how the E85 reacts with rubber. So far no change to the O-rings, plastic baffle, or steel fuel line.

Interesting... Keep up the good work :)

Steel Chicken
09-28-2005, 08:25 AM
food for though for e85
http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/55019/55019_final.htm

Sinister Performance
09-28-2005, 11:09 PM
Today when I checked on the experiment, I noticed most of the fuel had evaporated. By this evening, all of the fuel was gone.

The empty jars now smell like skunky beer, which I might add smells better than fresh E85, in my opinion. Anyway, the rubber line doesn't not appear to be physically harmed by the E85, but as my earlier findings revealed the fuel did take on some discoloration so something from the rubber lines had broken down in the E85. The rubber sleeve on the OEM fuel pump fell right off of the pump and appears to have been affected by the E85. So far no signs of any kind of harm to the steel line and O-rings.

I am going to let these items completely dry out to see if anything happens before I move on to the next step of the experiment.

GuitsBoy
09-29-2005, 02:11 PM
Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it sucks the moisture right out of the air. This might have something to do with the cloudiness in your experiments.

Sinister Performance
09-30-2005, 12:37 AM
Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it sucks the moisture right out of the air. This might have something to do with the cloudiness in your experiments.

I thought that too, however the fuel in the jars containing the steel line and O-rings did not get near as cloudy as the jars containing the fuel pump and hoses.

GuitsBoy
09-30-2005, 07:57 AM
I thought that too, however the fuel in the jars containing the steel line and O-rings did not get near as cloudy as the jars containing the fuel pump and hoses.

That sounds like a good point there. Could it maybe have been grease or anything on the surface of the parts? Just trying to help you root out any unplanned variables so you get the most accurate results possible... Very interested in the outcome.

Steel Chicken
10-12-2005, 02:07 PM
thread bump!

EPP
10-22-2005, 06:44 AM
E85 in Fort Wayne is currently being sold at a station on Coldwater Rd, at the corner of Wallen Rd. I've been thinking of experimenting with it myself with a vehicle on my Mustang Chassis Dyno. It's approx 30 to 40 cheaper than 87 octane fuel right now. Bob

Bombguy99z28
10-24-2005, 11:21 AM
How is E85 with emmisions? I'm curious as to how well a car would smog in california if it was properly tuned running it. What are its byproducts of combustion?

Sinister Performance
01-30-2008, 12:27 PM
I know it's been a while since anything has been said in this thread but I have some new information (and a warning) everybody here should be aware of.

I ran E85 fuel in my 87 Fiero 3800 Turbo for a season and then pulled the fuel tank. Turns out the E85 fuel started reacting with my sending unit plumbing -- turning it black in color. The E85 didn't seem to harm anything else in the tank.

Since I found that I contacted Walbro and asked them if their fuel pumps were E-85 compatible. And at the time I spoke with them (it has been about a year) they said NONE of their pumps were compatible with E-85 and shouldn't be used with it.

This is a big disappointment because the car really liked the E85's 105 octane. My wallet really liked the higher octane for the cost that was less than reg. unleaded despite the fact my fuel economy dropped about 20%. I also discovered my injectors which were pleanty big for 100% gasoline were getting close to being maxxed out when running E85. The reason why is because E85 does not contain as much energy content as 100% gasoline, so more E85 must be injected into the engine to make up for the difference.

Now it has been about a year since I have run E-85 in my Fiero and the only component I changed out was the fuel pump (I had one of the older Walbro 307's and upgraded to the new 307/340 replacement). I should note that I did stick that 307 into another vehicle and it still works today. So basically nothing has failed in my fuel system since I ran the E85 for a summer.

I did find a website/company on the net that did some extensive experiements with E85 and found if used long enough, it would eventually corrode steel and aluminum; and would eat thru rubber parts. I think the only reason why I haven't had any issues with my fuel system is because I didn't use E85 long enough -- which is a good thing. As I mentioned above, the E85 was already starting to react with the metal my sending unit is made out of.

So basically what you should take from all this is use E85 in your car AT YOUR OWN RISK. I will tell you that I won't run it again in my car unless I replace all fuel system components with E-85 compatible materials.

-ryan

Steel Chicken
01-30-2008, 01:34 PM
components in a 1987 car wont have the same composition as parts in a modern car designed to handle standard E10 (oxygenated) gasoline.

most of the aftermarket parts companies will not say their parts can handle E85 simply for liability reasons...so you have to be careful.

snkeater
02-03-2008, 06:16 PM
I got handed this brochure, they say its a conversion kit for e-85 the website is www.intelligentethanolsystems.com
let me know more bout this

vaticano
02-03-2008, 09:39 PM
They are popping up all over the place. I've seen 6 different brands.

snkeater
02-04-2008, 09:08 PM
i asked the dealer of this E85 conversion kit that since there is a limited amount of gas stations that carry ethanol, is it possible to use regular gas and the person said yes, so i guess its a good things to use when at the strip or use sparringly

snkeater
02-04-2008, 09:08 PM
[QUOTE=snkeater;8639841]i asked the dealer of this E85 conversion kit that since there is a limited amount of gas stations that carry ethanol, is it possible to use regular gas and the person said yes, so i guess its a good thing to use when at the strip or use sparringly

Pony Exp.305
05-11-2010, 08:03 AM
I have been run my T/A on 50-70% E85 mix 30% gas without any problems. I have not modify Ls1 and fuel tank on my "98 T/A..Good inform..

clemsonfan1992
05-11-2010, 09:32 AM
what do you guys think about propane?

Dont get in a wreck or BOOM!!!!

ericwilloughby
05-17-2010, 12:08 AM
This debate should be over by now. E-85 won't hurt a stock fuel system.