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anti-lag, an explanation.

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Old 09-12-2005, 07:09 AM
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Default anti-lag, an explanation.

Found this info and thought it was quite informative. Does anyone run/make such a system for the Ls1?

How the turbo Anti-Lag System works

Bang-bang (also known as ALS which stands for Anti-Lag System) is an engine management technique that allows to minimize the turbo lag time.

As you might be aware of, turbochargers display what is known as lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. The duration of a turbocharger's lag depends on many factors among which its inertia, airflow efficiency, back pressure, etc. The problem is partly dealt with by fitting a turbo dump valve, which acts each time the driver lifts his foot from the throttle. The dump valve will evacuate the pressurized air coming out of the turbocharger while the inlet manifold is closed thus allowing the turbine not to stall and avoiding possible damage to its bearings. In race cars it is very common to fit oversized turbochargers in order to be able to produce enough boost pressure and assure a sufficient engine output. Big turbochargers display significant amounts of lag due to their increased rotational inertia. In such cases the dump valve is insufficient to allow the turbocharger not to loose too much speed when the driver lifts off. Additionally rally cars hold a turbo restrictor, which is regulated by the FIA. One of the restrictor' effects is to increase lag time. This is why in racing cars, and more specifically in rally cars, where torque and engine availability are critical factors, most applications use anti-lag systems.

During lag time the engine is much less responsive and its output well below nominal. To counter the effect of the turbocharger's lag time drivers used to anticipate the engine's reactions by accelerating well before they would have done in a non-turbo car. Others have used a technique, introduced by the German driver Walter Röhrl, known as "left foot braking" where the driver uses his left foot to brake the car while his right foot accelerates to keep the turbocharger in optimal load. Left foot braking is very hard on the brakes which are put into extreme stress but is very efficient in keeping the turbo spinning.
ALS was a simple idea but one that was relatively difficult to implement. Only when electronic engine management systems were advanced enough to allow taking into consideration many more parameters than in the past it became possible to use them efficiently in handling ALS. To the best of my knowledge Toyota Team Europe were the first to use it in racing (Toyota's implementation is known as Toyota Combustion Control System while Mitsubishi call the system Post Combustion Control System).

How ALS works

When the driver lifts his foot from the gas pedal the ignition timing is altered with sometimes 40° or more of delay (retard) and the intake air and fuel supply mixture is made richer. The inlet butterfly is kept slightly open or an air injector is used to maintain air supply to the engine. This results in air/fuel mixture that keeps getting in the combustion chambers when the driver no longer accelerates. The ignition being delayed, the air/fuel mixture reaches the exhaust tubes mostly unburned. When the spark plug fires, the exhaust valve is starting to open due to the ignition delay mentioned above. Additionally, the exhaust temperature being extremely high, the unburned fuel explodes at the contact of the exhaust tubes. Luckily the turbo sits right there and the explosion keeps it turning (otherwise it would slow down since its intake, the exhaust gases, is cut-off). The effect is vastly lower response times with some downsides:

A quick rise of the turbocharger's temperature (which jumps from ~800°C to the 1100°C+ region) whenever the system is activated

A huge stress on the exhaust manifold and pipes (mounted on a street car a bang-bang system would destroy the exhaust system within 50-100 km)

The turbo produces significant boost even at engine idle speeds

The explosions which occur in the exhaust tubes generate important flames which can, sometimes, be seen at the end of the exhaust tube

Reduced engine brake

The ALS effect is mostly dependent on the air allowed into the engine, the more air supplied the more the ALS effect will be noticeable. Consequently ALS systems can be more or less aggressive. A mild ALS will maintain a 0 to 0.3 bar pressure in the inlet manifold when activated whereas, when inactive, the pressure in the inlet manifold with the throttle closed would be in the region of -1 bar (absolute vacuum). Racing ALS versions can maintain a pressure of up to 1.5 bar in the inlet manifold with the throttle closed.
While the systems mounted in Toyota and Mitsubishi racing cars are relatively smooth and noiseless those fitted in Ford and Subaru cars are much more noisy and aggressive.
The bang-bang system owns its name to the loud explosion noises one hears whenever the driver lifts off. Most racing implementations have user selectable anti-lag settings depending on the terrain, usually three settings can be selected by the driver going from mild to very aggressive.

Note that some regional or national European events prohibit the use of ALS systems while more and more WRC events regulate the noise levels allowed by competition cars effectively disabling ALS.

Starting in 2002 new anti-lag techniques, such as Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR), are slowly overtaking the method described above as they are kinder on the engine's mechanical parts.
Old 09-12-2005, 07:18 AM
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i haven't seen anyone running bang-bang systems on V8s. i dont think there is much of a need for it. the systems where developed for race and rally cars in the 80's to help with the trimendous lag they used to suffer (a by product of old technolgy and having to run down to 7.0-1 to let them run high boost presures). now, even with small cc engines (under 2.0ltr) lag it much less of a probelm. ball bearing turbos and the designs now mean turbos are far superrior to what they used to be! also anyone running heades will find anti-lag will soon crack them unless they are very thick! also pputs a lot of stress on the turbo, thus reducing life span conciderably! for the road, i feel that anti-lag is more of a show thing. if you really want to kill lag then run a wet 50bhp shot of N2O at low rpm until the turbo reches say 10psi! bing no lag.

thanks Chris.
Old 09-12-2005, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by chuntington101
if you really want to kill lag then run a wet 50bhp shot of N2O at low rpm until the turbo reches say 10psi! bing no lag.
thanks Chris.
how will that counter LAG?

It will give you more power below the boost threshold, but if you are say at 5000rpm @ WOT and lift off of the loud pedal then reapply it at WOT (such as when cornering or countering a slide) there will be a LAG time before the turbo produces boost again. Running NOS in the low rpm's will have zero affect.
Old 09-12-2005, 08:37 AM
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people use it all the time, its also known as a two step rev limiter.
Old 09-12-2005, 09:15 AM
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I think most guys in this forum are more Drag race oriented where as this is more of a road racing type issue. Using a 50 shot of N20 off the line creates the load for a fast spool with the BIG turbos. Appropriately sized turbos spool up fast on the LSx platform, I think my full boost comes on by 3300ish
Old 09-12-2005, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by libertine1015
I think most guys in this forum are more Drag race oriented where as this is more of a road racing type issue. Using a 50 shot of N20 off the line creates the load for a fast spool with the BIG turbos. Appropriately sized turbos spool up fast on the LSx platform, I think my full boost comes on by 3300ish
yeah I agree matching the turbo with the setup is critical. And the fact a big V8 should be grunty off boost.

But what people describe is NOT lag.

LAG can occur anywhere in the rev range even at the red line if you desire. It's not where boost or maximum boost can be acheived.

So you say full boost by 3300rpm. So if we assume you are at 5200rpm @ WOT then you will definantley be making full boost as you corner hard. The back end suddenly steps out so you lift off of the throttle completly. Which means that due to the reduction in exhaust gas flow and the resultant closeure of the throttle plate high pressure builds behind the turbo thus causing it to stall.

The tail of the car slides back inline, so you immediatley go to WOT, even though the engine revs have probably only dropped to 5000rpm (so still in the maximum boost range). However because the tubo is no longer spinning quick enough there is no boost, thus LAG occurs until the turbo is back up to speed.

How does NOs help in this situation?

Such devices as dump valves (BOV's) help try and reduce this by releasing the high pressure, but LAG will still occur as the exhaust gas flow will be inefficent to spin the turbo fast enough immediatley.


I understand that many people seem to confuse turbo LAG with where in the rev range boost is made, thus high stall's are used on auto's and I can see the benefit of No2 in this circumstance. But this is not turbo LAG.

If it where, then you could also say a Honda VTEC has lag, becuase it doesn't make it's power until it 'comes on cam' at say 6000rpm.
Old 09-12-2005, 10:33 AM
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I am not disagreeing with you, No2 is only good off the line from a standing start. If you dont want to call the time it takes the turbo to get up to boost lag then just let us know what you want to call it, we will discuss it amongst ourselves and let you know. Im am voting for "lagersome"???? just kidding! What I was trying to explain earlier is that the only turn most of these guys make is into the return lane. Mostly Drag racers in here with suspensions and tire combos that make road racing impossible, therefore you are correct and your point is valid but also moot for most denizens of the FI forum!


cheers friend!
Old 09-12-2005, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by libertine1015
I am not disagreeing with you, No2 is only good off the line from a standing start. If you dont want to call the time it takes the turbo to get up to boost lag then just let us know what you want to call it, we will discuss it amongst ourselves and let you know. Im am voting for "lagersome"???? just kidding! What I was trying to explain earlier is that the only turn most of these guys make is into the return lane. Mostly Drag racers in here with suspensions and tire combos that make road racing impossible, therefore you are correct and your point is valid but also moot for most denizens of the FI forum!


cheers friend!
no worries pal. And I fully understand the situation of street and drag racing in the US (spent some time in CA and western USA).
Old 09-12-2005, 12:06 PM
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This is certainly worthy of discussion in the Autocross and Road Racing threads farther down the LS1tech forum. There may be some guys on there running turbo's with stronger sentiments and opinions of higher relevance due to their cars' applications. There might not be, though, now that I think about it. All seem to be NA.

There is a ALOT of autocross in the U.S. We have some here in South Florida, very organized and represented by some F-bodies at times, believe it or not. Autocross is not the typical F-body enthusiast's activity, though.
Old 09-12-2005, 02:39 PM
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In all reality you could use N20 on a window switch for a road course. Don't know how long a bottle would last with a 50shot, but I'm sure it would last quite a while seeing as you would not be in the sub 5k RPM's very often.

But this would not ultimately solve the shifting issues you would see in a manual trans.

I'm sure something like this has been tried but, what about finding a way to open the exhaust upstream of the turbo. Something similar to a BOV but for the exhaust. One would think that the rotation of the turbo would not slow down as much as since the air is free to move instead of being trapped.

Does that make sense?

But fears I would have of something like this are:
Letting cold air in to go through a really hot turbo
The speed would have to be extreamly fast


BTW, would a diverter help at all vs a BOV?
Old 09-12-2005, 03:12 PM
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300,

Big heavy turbines would be great in respect to what you talk about...keeping the revs up and needing power instantly...has to do withe the centrifugal force of the heavy turbine...with a big enough blowoff, the heavy wheel will still maintain a lot of it's speed and gradually slow as a smaller turbine will slow much faster...this will allow boost to be available as soon as the gas is matted....can see this happening on my buddies drag camaro...lighter/smaller turbine turbo will lag if he gets out of the gas due to spinning, where his newer heavier turbine turbo spools back instantly if he had to get out of the gas....

Food for thought.
Old 09-12-2005, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by turbocuda
300,

Big heavy turbines would be great in respect to what you talk about...keeping the revs up and needing power instantly...has to do withe the centrifugal force of the heavy turbine...with a big enough blowoff, the heavy wheel will still maintain a lot of it's speed and gradually slow as a smaller turbine will slow much faster...this will allow boost to be available as soon as the gas is matted....can see this happening on my buddies drag camaro...lighter/smaller turbine turbo will lag if he gets out of the gas due to spinning, where his newer heavier turbine turbo spools back instantly if he had to get out of the gas....

Food for thought.
Hmnn... So, with larger turbo's, then, the problem of lag between an open to close to open again throttle wouldn't even be an issue? The turbo's momentum would keep it spinning all by itself. Obviously, it'd stop at some point, but it would last long enough not to lose any significant amount of speed (boost) between a rapid on/off/on throttle switch-up in a road race situation during an oversteer event for example. Of course, wait too long and the turbo's gotta start from scratch, there's nothing you can do there. The more this is examined, the less it seems to currently impact the world of turbo racing.

I've heard of Anti-lagging before in rally racing. There's just so much throttle goosing back and forth; I could see it being an issue.

However, on road courses, heck, and rally, too, during those situations that require a longer period of throttle closure, like when braking and slowing down for a long turn for instance, nothing will help, except keeping the rev's high up in the powerband and having decent power up top ready to go when the throttle is open again... ya just gotta wait for the turbo and hopefully you don't depend that much on it. Lag... The fate of FI...

Unless you have a badass twin-screw!
Old 09-12-2005, 10:31 PM
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I'm sure DFCO settings could be adjusted to do this, but I feel sorry for the hot side parts on the ls-1 this is attempted on.
Old 09-13-2005, 07:14 AM
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sorry guys! re-reading what i wrote before it is a little confussing. yeas i was saying use N2O to spool the turbos faster (ie at the bottom end) and for cooling the intake temps down a bit!

the only really way of reducing lag is to size the turbos as best you can, mount tthe turbos as close to the exhaust ports as you can, etc, etc.

but if you want a totaly free lag/very fast spool up set up then the ultimate as a SC/turbo combo! take a roots/twin screew blower and blowe it intothe inntakes of the turbo/s. half way down that pipe have a vavle that contects a filtter to the pipe. then in normaly condition (ie when turbos aren't running) the supercharger is doinfgthe work. then as the turbos spool the valve opens and allows the turbo to operate as normal. just like theLancier S4 Groupe B used to run!

thanks Chris.

Oh and if you want the ultimate bang-bang system then how about you conect the BOV to the exhaust manifold and run a conventional Anti-lag system! LOADS of cold air and loads of fuel in the small sapce of an exhaust mannifold!!!! kills turbos though.
Old 09-13-2005, 08:31 AM
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On our Buick performance chips we have a feature called "Launch Assist" it works when it is turned on, the speed is less that 5MPH, and the throttle is is between 50% and 85%. At that point timing is reduced quite a bit and boost comes up significantly faster. Also with the reduced engine torque the barkes have a much easier time holding the car on the line so the need for a transbrake is reduced as well. Here is a n example on my car I can brake torque it and it get to about 4 or 5 psi in about 3 or 4 seconds. At that point the car begins to creep, the brake can't hold it. With launch assist enabled in the same time fram it gets to 10-12 psi and the brakes hold fine. Maybe some LS-1 programmer can work something up?
Mike
Old 09-13-2005, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Full Throttle
On our Buick performance chips we have a feature called "Launch Assist" it works when it is turned on, the speed is less that 5MPH, and the throttle is is between 50% and 85%. At that point timing is reduced quite a bit and boost comes up significantly faster. Also with the reduced engine torque the barkes have a much easier time holding the car on the line so the need for a transbrake is reduced as well. Here is a n example on my car I can brake torque it and it get to about 4 or 5 psi in about 3 or 4 seconds. At that point the car begins to creep, the brake can't hold it. With launch assist enabled in the same time fram it gets to 10-12 psi and the brakes hold fine. Maybe some LS-1 programmer can work something up?
Mike
That sounds like a badass turbo launch to see on a car.
Old 09-17-2005, 10:15 PM
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On DSM's we do that with the AEM EMS's drag antliag.. It is in effect a two step limiter but does it in a manner like the turbo buicks example as opposed to a MSD's way... The AEM is also capable of ralley or bang bang ALS..

Big Stuff 3 should have no problem being setup for a drag antilag.

The rally ALS or Bang Bang systems can sometimes be quite brutal to turbos.. The real ralley EVO's are alot softer. Their system bypasses intake air thru a valve built alot like a EGR valve into the exhaust manifold. This system is less of a bang bang but more of a steady burn.

You should'nt need a bang bang or rally ALS on a V8 turbo.. The drag type ALS is nice..

FYI

Its nice to see some domestic guys that are actually up on technology.

Last edited by V8_DSM_V8again; 09-18-2005 at 11:37 PM.



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