Non-drag Daily Driver: Stall or Gears? A4 2.73's...
09-27-2005, 10:53 PM
#1
Non-drag Daily Driver: Stall or Gears? A4 2.73's... I know for the best 1/4 mile... most everybody recommends a stall converter as the best bang for the buck. But I think, that there is a lot of muddy water going around about things.
From what I can gather, given a bolt-on A4 car... going from 2.73's to 3.23/3.42's will knock about 0.2-0.3 off in the quarter all else being equal.
A 3500'ish stall will knock off about 0.4-0.6. However it is also fairly evident to me that most everyone is quoting stall times using drag radials. My car will NEVER have drag radials on it. Nothing personal, I just know that it won't. And given that the vast majority of the drop (maybe 0.3 or more) is coming off of thier 60ft times, it just makes it really foggy.
Right now, my 275 fusions hook real nice with the 2.73's. Just a little spin, almost a perfect no brainer launch. I'd assume going either gears or stall will change this actually requiring some thought when launching.
The real point of my question is... for a non-drag radial daily driver... could gears actually be the better choice?
My assumption is that the end (tuning with the stall, speedo with the gears) would put the gears in a pretty clear lead, both for cost and simplicity/risk.
Anyone who's done both, perhaps individually on separate cars... I'd love your feedback. One or the other is going to happen on my car... but not both because the tires don't warrant both.
- Cost : advantage gears
- SOTP : tie?
- 1/4 mile: advantage stall
- Complexity : advantage gears (no tuning, just speedo)
- Gas : tie (highway - gears, city - stall)
- Durability : ??? stall makes heat, but gears will use 2-3 WOT more...
From what I can gather, given a bolt-on A4 car... going from 2.73's to 3.23/3.42's will knock about 0.2-0.3 off in the quarter all else being equal.
A 3500'ish stall will knock off about 0.4-0.6. However it is also fairly evident to me that most everyone is quoting stall times using drag radials. My car will NEVER have drag radials on it. Nothing personal, I just know that it won't. And given that the vast majority of the drop (maybe 0.3 or more) is coming off of thier 60ft times, it just makes it really foggy.
Right now, my 275 fusions hook real nice with the 2.73's. Just a little spin, almost a perfect no brainer launch. I'd assume going either gears or stall will change this actually requiring some thought when launching.
The real point of my question is... for a non-drag radial daily driver... could gears actually be the better choice?
My assumption is that the end (tuning with the stall, speedo with the gears) would put the gears in a pretty clear lead, both for cost and simplicity/risk.
Anyone who's done both, perhaps individually on separate cars... I'd love your feedback. One or the other is going to happen on my car... but not both because the tires don't warrant both.
- Cost : advantage gears
- SOTP : tie?
- 1/4 mile: advantage stall
- Complexity : advantage gears (no tuning, just speedo)
- Gas : tie (highway - gears, city - stall)
- Durability : ??? stall makes heat, but gears will use 2-3 WOT more...
09-27-2005, 11:01 PM
#2
i think your statement regarding drag radials and how they'll NEVER be on the car is enough encouragement to rule out a stall converter. i would vote do just the gears, and go with 373s. i did (also had a 273 car) and just the gear swap makes it a whole new animal. i actually spun MORE with 273s than i do now with 373s. weird. i love the gears and i am doing a 4k stall VERY soon, as this is not a daily driven car. IMO, converters are for towing and racing, not daily driving. your in-town mileage will suffer more with a stalled 273 car vs a gear only 373 car. and highway mileage is minimally affected, 3-5 mpg.
09-27-2005, 11:08 PM
#3
My previous car was a '93 LT1 w/ 3.23's and a B&M shift kit I put in on a gravel driveway. Strong from 30k when I did it to 155k when I sold it, lol.
I really liked the gearing on that car compared to this one, but the LS1 pulls so much harder it seems like 3.73's would be obnoxious, I'd spin out too much lol.
It's also a vert with a loudmouth II... which is right on the verge of being too noisy for me. Really glad I went with a II, can't imagine a I would be liveable for me. 3.73's might also cause a problem there.
Alot of my driving is Michigan highway driving at 85-90mph. That's the only reason the 2.73's aren't driving me totally nuts.
Thanks for the input and keep em coming, please.
I really liked the gearing on that car compared to this one, but the LS1 pulls so much harder it seems like 3.73's would be obnoxious, I'd spin out too much lol.
It's also a vert with a loudmouth II... which is right on the verge of being too noisy for me. Really glad I went with a II, can't imagine a I would be liveable for me. 3.73's might also cause a problem there.
Alot of my driving is Michigan highway driving at 85-90mph. That's the only reason the 2.73's aren't driving me totally nuts.
Thanks for the input and keep em coming, please.
09-27-2005, 11:16 PM
#4
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dude im having the same problem...alleveryone has been telling me is a converter...although i still dont know if thats the best choice...the only thing i can tell you is the same thing someone told me...dont get gears unless your going to get a 12 bolt in the future. because you can use the stall with the 12 bolt...but if you get gears for yours now...in the future when u get a 12 bolt you cant use the gears you allready bought....
09-27-2005, 11:29 PM
#5
Again, going with general consensus... a 10 bolt is ok for a street A4. I think your point is that if you build up a A4 with a big stall and slap drag radials on it... then chances are sooner or later wheel hop is going to eat your 10 bolt.
But there seem to be alot of people with A4's taking 10 bolts into the 11's... which I know my car will never see.
Because of the street tires... it's pretty much either or for me. 275's won't hook hard enough to justify both.
But there seem to be alot of people with A4's taking 10 bolts into the 11's... which I know my car will never see.
Because of the street tires... it's pretty much either or for me. 275's won't hook hard enough to justify both.
09-28-2005, 12:49 AM
#6
I once thought the way you do right now. I would never use drag radials. Well that changed. The nittos are pretty good and the stall is not only good for a dig but also helps the car pull better from a roll. If you are concerned about wheel hop, get yourself a set of lower control arms. My car is still a street car and it always will be. And gears will actually hurt you on the highway since you will be turning higher rpms but will help around city. The converter will hurt around city, again depending on your gears but will be the same as the stock one once it locks up on the highway.
09-28-2005, 06:37 AM
#7
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I would still reccomend the stall over the gears. Even though the gears may make the car feel quick, your really not going to pick up much at all going to 3.42s, 3.23s would be a complete waste. I've run my 3500 stall with the stock 245 RSAs and I've even street raced on Bridgestone Blizzack snow tires. If you know how to drive your car, you can handle a stall on street tires no problem.
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09-28-2005, 09:10 AM
#8
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Stall, no question... biggest gain and a big stall with 2.73's still doesnt have a too hard of a time finding traction.
i went from 13.00 to 12.3 with my 3800/2.5 Yank, and I can dead hook at the track with BFG's launching at 3200rpms and hitting it full throttle out the hole.
i went from 13.00 to 12.3 with my 3800/2.5 Yank, and I can dead hook at the track with BFG's launching at 3200rpms and hitting it full throttle out the hole.
09-28-2005, 09:13 AM
#9
Stall:
With drag radials a 3500 stall will knock .7 - .9 off the time of a 2.73 car. Remove the DRs and you'll see .4 -.7 depending your skill. You will spin the 3.73s easily.
Your assumption about complexity is incorrect. Gears often require more than a speedo change. Plenty of people experience problems with their downshift tables and WOT tables after a gear swap. Not everyone does, but enough do that you need to be prepared to deal with this. Likewise, plenty of people put in mild stalls w/o any tuning required.
The stall will cure the dead spot on the 1-2 upshift and help a bit on the 2-3 (to fully cure 2-3 takes a bigger stall than you want) so you will be stronger from a roll. The stall will also not impact your highway mpg.
As far as durability goes, gears tend to get noisy over time unless the install is very good and you never put DRs on and go to the track. A well made converter with a tranny cooler will last a lot of miles.
The advantage of gears is if you race from a roll on the highway. Right now you shift to 3rd around 100 mph and have a long 3rd gear. Gears will help more above 100 mph than a stall will.
Bottom line: Buy a 3200 stall with a low STR. You will learn to launch it in a few tries. I'd suggest a 3500 with a low STR if you were getting tuning software. Tweaking your part throttle shifts really improves the drivability of a high stall converter.
If you get gears, 3.42s sound like they would best match your goals.
With drag radials a 3500 stall will knock .7 - .9 off the time of a 2.73 car. Remove the DRs and you'll see .4 -.7 depending your skill. You will spin the 3.73s easily.
Your assumption about complexity is incorrect. Gears often require more than a speedo change. Plenty of people experience problems with their downshift tables and WOT tables after a gear swap. Not everyone does, but enough do that you need to be prepared to deal with this. Likewise, plenty of people put in mild stalls w/o any tuning required.
The stall will cure the dead spot on the 1-2 upshift and help a bit on the 2-3 (to fully cure 2-3 takes a bigger stall than you want) so you will be stronger from a roll. The stall will also not impact your highway mpg.
As far as durability goes, gears tend to get noisy over time unless the install is very good and you never put DRs on and go to the track. A well made converter with a tranny cooler will last a lot of miles.
The advantage of gears is if you race from a roll on the highway. Right now you shift to 3rd around 100 mph and have a long 3rd gear. Gears will help more above 100 mph than a stall will.
Bottom line: Buy a 3200 stall with a low STR. You will learn to launch it in a few tries. I'd suggest a 3500 with a low STR if you were getting tuning software. Tweaking your part throttle shifts really improves the drivability of a high stall converter.
If you get gears, 3.42s sound like they would best match your goals.
09-28-2005, 02:10 PM
#10
I have 2.73 with a stall.Dont know the str.? and let me tell you I love it.I am running some Kumhos ASX season tires.Like you I will not see the track maybe mess around with a G-tech.I hardly get any wheel spin and it doesnt feel loose.Stalls are also really good from a slow roll(10-30mph).Your rpm move so fast and keeps you in a high powerband.I have raced a SS with 3.73 and he gets alot of wheelspin i jumped out about 2 cars.get the stall and a torque arm and maybe new shocks.
09-28-2005, 02:22 PM
#11
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todddchi, the decision is yours, get whatever you want to get...just as long as your wallet can afford the parts and the RESULTS!
No mater what you pick, you're gonna have fun.
No mater what you pick, you're gonna have fun.
09-28-2005, 03:14 PM
#13
Originally Posted by Ragtop 99
Stall:
With drag radials a 3500 stall will knock .7 - .9 off the time of a 2.73 car. Remove the DRs and you'll see .4 -.7 depending your skill. You will spin the 3.73s easily.
Your assumption about complexity is incorrect. Gears often require more than a speedo change. Plenty of people experience problems with their downshift tables and WOT tables after a gear swap. Not everyone does, but enough do that you need to be prepared to deal with this. Likewise, plenty of people put in mild stalls w/o any tuning required.
The stall will cure the dead spot on the 1-2 upshift and help a bit on the 2-3 (to fully cure 2-3 takes a bigger stall than you want) so you will be stronger from a roll. The stall will also not impact your highway mpg.
As far as durability goes, gears tend to get noisy over time unless the install is very good and you never put DRs on and go to the track. A well made converter with a tranny cooler will last a lot of miles.
The advantage of gears is if you race from a roll on the highway. Right now you shift to 3rd around 100 mph and have a long 3rd gear. Gears will help more above 100 mph than a stall will.
Bottom line: Buy a 3200 stall with a low STR. You will learn to launch it in a few tries. I'd suggest a 3500 with a low STR if you were getting tuning software. Tweaking your part throttle shifts really improves the drivability of a high stall converter.
If you get gears, 3.42s sound like they would best match your goals.
With drag radials a 3500 stall will knock .7 - .9 off the time of a 2.73 car. Remove the DRs and you'll see .4 -.7 depending your skill. You will spin the 3.73s easily.
Your assumption about complexity is incorrect. Gears often require more than a speedo change. Plenty of people experience problems with their downshift tables and WOT tables after a gear swap. Not everyone does, but enough do that you need to be prepared to deal with this. Likewise, plenty of people put in mild stalls w/o any tuning required.
The stall will cure the dead spot on the 1-2 upshift and help a bit on the 2-3 (to fully cure 2-3 takes a bigger stall than you want) so you will be stronger from a roll. The stall will also not impact your highway mpg.
As far as durability goes, gears tend to get noisy over time unless the install is very good and you never put DRs on and go to the track. A well made converter with a tranny cooler will last a lot of miles.
The advantage of gears is if you race from a roll on the highway. Right now you shift to 3rd around 100 mph and have a long 3rd gear. Gears will help more above 100 mph than a stall will.
Bottom line: Buy a 3200 stall with a low STR. You will learn to launch it in a few tries. I'd suggest a 3500 with a low STR if you were getting tuning software. Tweaking your part throttle shifts really improves the drivability of a high stall converter.
If you get gears, 3.42s sound like they would best match your goals.
09-28-2005, 03:55 PM
#14
A 3200 stall is fine. 3200 and 3.73's with some drag radials would be sweet, and you can expect about 1.0 off your e/t. I know some guys that lose .7 with a TC, .2-.3 for gears and .2-.3 with great traction. I run a 13.4 now with just a simple bolt on LT1, gears, TC, and a set of drag radials will get me almost mid 12's.
09-28-2005, 08:13 PM
#15
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I had the same questions you have about this time last year. I have a 2.73 A4 and was debating between a stall or gears. I chose a Vig 2800 with a str of 2.5. I have run a best of 13.15 with street tires. Once you get use to the difference having a stall is great. The 2.73 gears are good for highway and you can kill 6 speed LS1's.
09-28-2005, 10:22 PM
#16
If your goal was better around town driveability and SOTP I'd recommend gears. Since you drive on the highway a lot, though, I'd start with the converter, and if it feels too loose with the 2.73's, I'd do the gears next. I too had an LT1/3.23 car and I went with gears first on my LS1/2.73 car because I hated the way it felt around town. 3.42's really woke it up. The TCI 3000 is a mild converter with great driveability and won't affect your highway MPG - which 3.73's will kill.
09-29-2005, 03:48 AM
#17
I really appreciate all the feedback. Is there any chance of having a stall and keeping a GM Basic Guard warranty intact? I'm getting pretty comfortable with the car and might just prorate refund it if not...
I can price stalls myself, but what is a realistic price for installation + the required custom tune? I would add the cooler myself, but have no desire to toy with a tuning pack and have no way to drop a trans, nor am I sure I'd want to try.
I live around Detriot... anyone now any shops that would actually warrant performance parts/install like this? The only one I know of is Livernois (sp?) motorsports and they've very clearly said "No warranty of any kind on performance parts or installs". They could be the best goddamn shop in the world and a policy like that just kinda kills it for me.
Oh, and I know you need a cooler... but wouldn't a stall be harder on everything aft the motor just from pure torque input? Does the "softness" of the stall make it ok or what?
I haven't been to the strip yet but in full street trim with the top down, I can pull a G-tech of 13.68 @101.2, and I think they are reasonably accurate.
If the car gets down to the 13.2 range I'll be done with speed mods.
I can price stalls myself, but what is a realistic price for installation + the required custom tune? I would add the cooler myself, but have no desire to toy with a tuning pack and have no way to drop a trans, nor am I sure I'd want to try.
I live around Detriot... anyone now any shops that would actually warrant performance parts/install like this? The only one I know of is Livernois (sp?) motorsports and they've very clearly said "No warranty of any kind on performance parts or installs". They could be the best goddamn shop in the world and a policy like that just kinda kills it for me.
Oh, and I know you need a cooler... but wouldn't a stall be harder on everything aft the motor just from pure torque input? Does the "softness" of the stall make it ok or what?
I haven't been to the strip yet but in full street trim with the top down, I can pull a G-tech of 13.68 @101.2, and I think they are reasonably accurate.
If the car gets down to the 13.2 range I'll be done with speed mods.
Last edited by todddchi; 09-29-2005 at 04:02 AM.
09-29-2005, 07:56 AM
#18
Tune: I would not buy a custom tune, unless you find someone (like a member here) with a cable who will let you do some tweaks for $100 - 150. Most people need zero tuning after putting in a stall. I also would not play with the shift points, etc until you have put some miles on the converter and may a list of what you like and what you don't. There is no one rule about lock-up and shift points that is best; it is about matching the car to your driving style.
Install: I've seen as low as $150 and places asking over $350. Typical range is $200 - $300. It is rare for a shop to have a written policy warranting a high performance part install. What little I've seen about Livernois Motorsports suggests that they will not leave you hanging if there is an issue. Ask around in the midwest section about other shops, I know we have plenty of members from the motor city. A converter swap is pretty straight forward, no cutting or special fitting is required.
Harder on the car: Anytime you modify the car to add HP or TQ, you are increasing wear. The size stall you are looking at is not an issue so long as you add a good cooler. Gutting the car and getting the weight out is the only way to go faster and not increase wear. Yes, Gears increase wear as your average rpms increase for engine and tranny.
Install: I've seen as low as $150 and places asking over $350. Typical range is $200 - $300. It is rare for a shop to have a written policy warranting a high performance part install. What little I've seen about Livernois Motorsports suggests that they will not leave you hanging if there is an issue. Ask around in the midwest section about other shops, I know we have plenty of members from the motor city. A converter swap is pretty straight forward, no cutting or special fitting is required.
Harder on the car: Anytime you modify the car to add HP or TQ, you are increasing wear. The size stall you are looking at is not an issue so long as you add a good cooler. Gutting the car and getting the weight out is the only way to go faster and not increase wear. Yes, Gears increase wear as your average rpms increase for engine and tranny.
09-29-2005, 10:32 PM
#19
You don't need a specialty LS1 performance shop to install a converter; just find a good tranny shop that R&R's a lot of trannies. The shop is not going to stand by the converter if there's a problem with it, but they will have to stand by their installation. If you want to keep your shifts crisp after the TC install, you may want to consider having a Transgo kit installed while it is out, as long as the shop is competent to do so.
09-30-2005, 08:12 AM
#20
Originally Posted by RevGTO
...you may want to consider having a Transgo kit installed while it is out, as long as the shop is competent to do so.