Realtime On-The-Fly Tuning for LS1
10-01-2005, 11:18 PM
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Realtime On-The-Fly Tuning for LS1 Folks,
Are there any options out there right now for LS1 realtime tuning? If so, what is the price point? Would it be affordable, and even competitive, with other products that have been around for long enough? I mean, what would it take for the typical enthusiast consumer to be able to enjoy make changes to their LS1 tuning in realtime while the car is running?
Would functionality like this be integrated with high-speed datalogging? Obviously, it would need to be at LEAST USB-based. What software support would it have? EFI Live? TunerCat? HP Tuners? DHP Tuners? Some other upstart software?
Hmm...
Best regards,
-Craig
Are there any options out there right now for LS1 realtime tuning? If so, what is the price point? Would it be affordable, and even competitive, with other products that have been around for long enough? I mean, what would it take for the typical enthusiast consumer to be able to enjoy make changes to their LS1 tuning in realtime while the car is running?
Would functionality like this be integrated with high-speed datalogging? Obviously, it would need to be at LEAST USB-based. What software support would it have? EFI Live? TunerCat? HP Tuners? DHP Tuners? Some other upstart software?
Hmm...
Best regards,
-Craig
Last edited by Craig Moates; 10-03-2005 at 08:45 AM.
10-03-2005, 08:42 AM
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Ah, I see now.
So there is some sort of option in Australia that costs $10,000 which would let me tune my car on the fly. Anyone have many details around this? I've seen mention of it, but never any in-depth discussion. I guess at $10,000 dollars, you don't bump into that many people at the local swap meet with experience using the system.
MegaSquirt is indeed sweet. That's a fairly large undertaking for the average Joe to shoulder though. I guess with harness adapters and what-not it wouldn't be too bad.
Yes, the bidirectional controls are nice. That lets you tweak a few things to see how they affect the operation, but that doesn't really put you on a solid road toward an improved tune does it? That's more like twisting your distributor or adjusting your fuel pressure in old-school terms.
Sub-30-second reflashes are nice. However, I'd like to be able to refresh the entire binary, operating system included, in less than 10 seconds. And I'd like to do it without having to turn my car off, wait for 20 seconds, and turn it back on. I'd like to do it on-the-fly while the vehicle is running on the dyno or on the street.
The whole business of having cables and wires draping all over the place between my laptop and the vehicle is just a hassle. I'd really like to get away from all that nonsense.
With integrated wideband technology, why should I need to even look at some cool histograms? It's pretty obvious what fuel corrections are needed, particularly if I provide a table of target values. Forget about MAF, that's nonsense. I'd like for those corrections to be applied directly to the VE tables, as long as they're within reason defined by my specified constraints. And I don't want to have to do a 30-second power-down reflash every time either. I'd like for the corrections to be applied automatically in realtime as I drive the car around.
Just kicking some dream-state concepts around here. It's not like anything that would bring all these features to the table at a sub-$1k pricepoint would ever exist, certainly not in the next couple of months.
Regards,
-Craig
So there is some sort of option in Australia that costs $10,000 which would let me tune my car on the fly. Anyone have many details around this? I've seen mention of it, but never any in-depth discussion. I guess at $10,000 dollars, you don't bump into that many people at the local swap meet with experience using the system.
MegaSquirt is indeed sweet. That's a fairly large undertaking for the average Joe to shoulder though. I guess with harness adapters and what-not it wouldn't be too bad.
Yes, the bidirectional controls are nice. That lets you tweak a few things to see how they affect the operation, but that doesn't really put you on a solid road toward an improved tune does it? That's more like twisting your distributor or adjusting your fuel pressure in old-school terms.
Sub-30-second reflashes are nice. However, I'd like to be able to refresh the entire binary, operating system included, in less than 10 seconds. And I'd like to do it without having to turn my car off, wait for 20 seconds, and turn it back on. I'd like to do it on-the-fly while the vehicle is running on the dyno or on the street.
The whole business of having cables and wires draping all over the place between my laptop and the vehicle is just a hassle. I'd really like to get away from all that nonsense.
With integrated wideband technology, why should I need to even look at some cool histograms? It's pretty obvious what fuel corrections are needed, particularly if I provide a table of target values. Forget about MAF, that's nonsense. I'd like for those corrections to be applied directly to the VE tables, as long as they're within reason defined by my specified constraints. And I don't want to have to do a 30-second power-down reflash every time either. I'd like for the corrections to be applied automatically in realtime as I drive the car around.
Just kicking some dream-state concepts around here. It's not like anything that would bring all these features to the table at a sub-$1k pricepoint would ever exist, certainly not in the next couple of months.
Regards,
-Craig
10-03-2005, 09:01 AM
#6
It is not possible with the stock GM computer, you would need an aftermarket unit for that. The GM unit doesn't lend itself to be flashed on the fly or under 10 seconds. It is pretty slow, compared to other more advanced systems, plus the protocol (IIRC) doesn't allow for such.
10-03-2005, 09:17 AM
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The real challenge (and expense) with any of these kinds of systems are the hardware integration requirements. Using the LS1/LS2 as an example you have 3 different PCMs, 2 different ECM's and TCMs. That's a lot of hardware integration considering the differing flash chips, speeds, package types and even accessibility of the flash (everything is getting very tiny now and heading to hybrid style, or as i prefer to call it "ants in jello" format). And it only gets worse as you increase coverage, eg. the V6 adds another half a dozen hardware combo's. It's not an impossible task but keeping on the leading edge would be a tremendous challenge.
Then there is the software side of things, not only do you have the realtime aspect to control (which to some extent could be generic i guess) but then there's the regular parameter editing and reflashing stuff that is done today (not an insigificant task in itself).
At the end of the day what have your gained? Potentially faster scanning and realtime parameter modification? And at what cost?
Some other factors to consider:
- most tuners hate the idea of removing PCMs (and/or TCM's)
- vehicle security systems and module authentication procedures are getting less tolerant of "new things"
- most tunershops want systems that keep up to date with the latest vehicles
- software based solutions are easier to deploy and maintain
I'm not intending to rain on your parade or be dismissive of the idea or the currently available system, but based on my research into the feasibility of such a project the odds are not in favor of there ever being a low cost or up-to-date realtime system based on the OEM hardware.
my 2c.
Chris...
Then there is the software side of things, not only do you have the realtime aspect to control (which to some extent could be generic i guess) but then there's the regular parameter editing and reflashing stuff that is done today (not an insigificant task in itself).
At the end of the day what have your gained? Potentially faster scanning and realtime parameter modification? And at what cost?
Some other factors to consider:
- most tuners hate the idea of removing PCMs (and/or TCM's)
- vehicle security systems and module authentication procedures are getting less tolerant of "new things"
- most tunershops want systems that keep up to date with the latest vehicles
- software based solutions are easier to deploy and maintain
I'm not intending to rain on your parade or be dismissive of the idea or the currently available system, but based on my research into the feasibility of such a project the odds are not in favor of there ever being a low cost or up-to-date realtime system based on the OEM hardware.
my 2c.
Chris...
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10-03-2005, 10:06 AM
#8
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Those are good points, I guess it wouldn't be an easy thing. I mean, with the various PCM geometries throught he years, I'd say you can just forget the pre-99 stuff and focus on the 99+. Then you get into the 28F800, so it would need to support 8mbit. And then there's the new LS2 stuff, with some significant geometric constraints and sporting the new sequential access AMD Flash. And the V6 stuff, with the Flash in a different location.
What do you do with the existing Flash? You can't very well still access and use it, can you? I mean, you'd need to take it out. Pretty major undertaking I guess.
Ah well, it was worth a thought I suppose...
What do you do with the existing Flash? You can't very well still access and use it, can you? I mean, you'd need to take it out. Pretty major undertaking I guess.
Ah well, it was worth a thought I suppose...
10-03-2005, 08:40 PM
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i have heard that AEM is coming out with a replacement computer for the LS1(99+) that would allow some of what you want. don't have much info, but i know i did hear somehting about it
10-04-2005, 11:58 AM
#11
Great stuff Craig! Your website sounds like you are further along than what is indicated in this thread...care to elaborate?
I have been intrigued by the idea of adding a car-pc running HPT or another package...the realtime approach is even better. Actually, I am going to be happy to just have some commercial LS2 CAN-based software available!
I have been intrigued by the idea of adding a car-pc running HPT or another package...the realtime approach is even better. Actually, I am going to be happy to just have some commercial LS2 CAN-based software available!
10-04-2005, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MTBDOC
Great stuff Craig! Your website sounds like you are further along than what is indicated in this thread...care to elaborate?
I'm ready to buy HPTuners for my WS6 and 04 Monte Carlo but need to get a better idea of what you're hinting at.....?
10-04-2005, 09:06 PM
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There is a company in AU that makes a piggy back system so you can tune in real time. It taps into the injector and ignition system with only a few wires. The car stills needs a decent base tune as this device adds, or subtracts off of a base tune. It is a Windows based system and looks very straight foward (like tuning a FAST or GEN7).
It also has built in boost control and a 3 BAR Map setup.
The company was Tuning Solutions. I have looked at the instruction manual it is pretty cool.
The price I believe was in the $700-900 dollar range.
It also has built in boost control and a 3 BAR Map setup.
The company was Tuning Solutions. I have looked at the instruction manual it is pretty cool.
The price I believe was in the $700-900 dollar range.
10-05-2005, 12:45 AM
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Folks,
Yes, that's right. I'm holding back a bit. Mostly because I don't want to be answering the question "Is it ready yet?" too terribly often and building anticipation more than necessary. But you can reread my questions above as sarcasm-laced statement of fact with respect to the hardware evolution and feature set. Not trying to be mean, it's just my way.
I've created a realtime emulator and have it working in the LS1 platform. It has been tested in a 99 SS as well as an 02 Truck. Plenty of PCM bench testing as well. The unit has gone into limited production (just a handful to test the full production cycle), but I haven't closed the window on feature creep. Things like built-in OBD2 communications and an array of analog acquisition channels are probably on the books before its public debut. There's a couple of other features pushing in as well that will probably have you peeing yourself.
The product will probably be made available as a 'Tuning PCM', with the emulation hardware already installed and any necessary cable connections in place. You get it, plug it in place of your factory PCM, and get busy. Software-wise, we'll need to wait and see how those fronts move. That will likely be the rate-limiting step with respect to being able to make this device useful to the public.
However, with that being said, please don't hold off on your decision-making on this basis. I just wanted to stir the pot a bit. Live each day like it's your last, one of them will be.
Best regards,
-Craig
Yes, that's right. I'm holding back a bit. Mostly because I don't want to be answering the question "Is it ready yet?" too terribly often and building anticipation more than necessary. But you can reread my questions above as sarcasm-laced statement of fact with respect to the hardware evolution and feature set. Not trying to be mean, it's just my way.
I've created a realtime emulator and have it working in the LS1 platform. It has been tested in a 99 SS as well as an 02 Truck. Plenty of PCM bench testing as well. The unit has gone into limited production (just a handful to test the full production cycle), but I haven't closed the window on feature creep. Things like built-in OBD2 communications and an array of analog acquisition channels are probably on the books before its public debut. There's a couple of other features pushing in as well that will probably have you peeing yourself.
The product will probably be made available as a 'Tuning PCM', with the emulation hardware already installed and any necessary cable connections in place. You get it, plug it in place of your factory PCM, and get busy. Software-wise, we'll need to wait and see how those fronts move. That will likely be the rate-limiting step with respect to being able to make this device useful to the public.
However, with that being said, please don't hold off on your decision-making on this basis. I just wanted to stir the pot a bit. Live each day like it's your last, one of them will be.
Best regards,
-Craig
10-06-2005, 08:34 AM
#15
intresting...
so you're talking about using a "tuning PCM" that runs the standard bin... but also contains extra hardware to allow things like realtime tuning and extra channels for logging...
is this the general idea:
swap to the tuning PCM
log/change real time until its dialed in good
take the bin off the real time PCM, and flash it to the stock PCM
swap back to the stock PCM.
is that right??
so you're talking about using a "tuning PCM" that runs the standard bin... but also contains extra hardware to allow things like realtime tuning and extra channels for logging...
is this the general idea:
swap to the tuning PCM
log/change real time until its dialed in good
take the bin off the real time PCM, and flash it to the stock PCM
swap back to the stock PCM.
is that right??
10-06-2005, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Moates
Folks,
Yes, that's right. I'm holding back a bit. Mostly because I don't want to be answering the question "Is it ready yet?" too terribly often and building anticipation more than necessary. But you can reread my questions above as sarcasm-laced statement of fact with respect to the hardware evolution and feature set. Not trying to be mean, it's just my way.
I've created a realtime emulator and have it working in the LS1 platform. It has been tested in a 99 SS as well as an 02 Truck. Plenty of PCM bench testing as well. The unit has gone into limited production (just a handful to test the full production cycle), but I haven't closed the window on feature creep. Things like built-in OBD2 communications and an array of analog acquisition channels are probably on the books before its public debut. There's a couple of other features pushing in as well that will probably have you peeing yourself.
The product will probably be made available as a 'Tuning PCM', with the emulation hardware already installed and any necessary cable connections in place. You get it, plug it in place of your factory PCM, and get busy. Software-wise, we'll need to wait and see how those fronts move. That will likely be the rate-limiting step with respect to being able to make this device useful to the public.
However, with that being said, please don't hold off on your decision-making on this basis. I just wanted to stir the pot a bit. Live each day like it's your last, one of them will be.
Best regards,
-Craig
Yes, that's right. I'm holding back a bit. Mostly because I don't want to be answering the question "Is it ready yet?" too terribly often and building anticipation more than necessary. But you can reread my questions above as sarcasm-laced statement of fact with respect to the hardware evolution and feature set. Not trying to be mean, it's just my way.
I've created a realtime emulator and have it working in the LS1 platform. It has been tested in a 99 SS as well as an 02 Truck. Plenty of PCM bench testing as well. The unit has gone into limited production (just a handful to test the full production cycle), but I haven't closed the window on feature creep. Things like built-in OBD2 communications and an array of analog acquisition channels are probably on the books before its public debut. There's a couple of other features pushing in as well that will probably have you peeing yourself.
The product will probably be made available as a 'Tuning PCM', with the emulation hardware already installed and any necessary cable connections in place. You get it, plug it in place of your factory PCM, and get busy. Software-wise, we'll need to wait and see how those fronts move. That will likely be the rate-limiting step with respect to being able to make this device useful to the public.
However, with that being said, please don't hold off on your decision-making on this basis. I just wanted to stir the pot a bit. Live each day like it's your last, one of them will be.
Best regards,
-Craig
This morning while driving to work i was thinking about this thread and it came to me this wouldnt be as hard as Chris (gameover) makes it seem (but he is the professional and knows more than me on this subject). Since there are so many PCM that support the LS1 what I would do as you did was pick ONE PCM, ONE OS and ONE set of calibrations and work around that. Of course you would have to sell the PCM that worked with all of this if anything needed to be added on which seems to be the case. Feasable yes cost effictive I will leave that to the pros
10-06-2005, 10:46 AM
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Hard to pick one OS and one calibration if you then want to flash that back into the customers PCM. The main point i was making is the hardware difficulty moving forward.
As an example take a look at this. Thats an LS1 on the right
As an example take a look at this. Thats an LS1 on the right
10-06-2005, 12:55 PM
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I'm in agreement with respect to the difficulty for moving into the latest and greatest PCMs that are coming out. Therefore, I'm focusing ONLY on the style PCMs shown on the right as seen above. Not that it will be impossible, but let's take one thing at a time, right?
While this isn't some utopian stroke that renders all PCMs that are out there as well as ones that haven't even been invented yet under our thumb, it isn't meant to be. However, it certainly will give additional functionality to a large number of vehicles that are already in the 'eligible for modification' category.
Not saying that it wouldn't be great to have realtime emulation on all the very latest stuff, but it's not my bag just yet. Folks had to practically beat me in the head with a lead pipe to get me to work on the LS1 in the first place. Now it works well, so there's another box checked along the path.
One thing that I don't fully understand is a reluctance to engage with something that isn't tooled for the very newest vehicles. There's many folks out there with 'older' vehicles in the 99-05 range. That's 6 years of coverage. Lots of folks that still want new toys for their cars.
While this isn't some utopian stroke that renders all PCMs that are out there as well as ones that haven't even been invented yet under our thumb, it isn't meant to be. However, it certainly will give additional functionality to a large number of vehicles that are already in the 'eligible for modification' category.
Not saying that it wouldn't be great to have realtime emulation on all the very latest stuff, but it's not my bag just yet. Folks had to practically beat me in the head with a lead pipe to get me to work on the LS1 in the first place. Now it works well, so there's another box checked along the path.
One thing that I don't fully understand is a reluctance to engage with something that isn't tooled for the very newest vehicles. There's many folks out there with 'older' vehicles in the 99-05 range. That's 6 years of coverage. Lots of folks that still want new toys for their cars.
10-06-2005, 01:05 PM
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AEM is currently developing a Plug and Play engine management system for the +99 F-bodies. Since it will be based on our existing hardware and software, the system will allow for realtime tuning of the entire calibration which reduces tuning time considerably. It will have extra 0-5V inputs for datalogging and will have all the advanced tuning features that our current EMS's have. (2 Step Rev Limiter w/ Turbo Anti-Lag, Closed Loop Boost Control, Nitrous Control, Traction Control, etc...)
