Dynamometer Results & Comparisons - AFR 205 vs ET peformance heads, picked up 22 rwhp

A friend of mine just did a head swap on his 00 SS camaro. I went down and checked out the dyno pulls today and had great results.

224/230 cam, LS6, ported TB, Longtubes, M6, pulley, stock rockers, stock bottom end.

The ET heads were going on another friends car, but let him do the swap for comparisons sake.

Both cars will dynoed on the same dyno and tuned with HP tuners to peak performance. Same compression CC on the heads.

AFR 205's: 423 rwhp
ET Peformance 215: 445 rwhp

Comparable torque #'s...

Pretty cool considering they cost close to the same...I know A&A Corvette is no longer stocking AFR's anymore and have switched over to ET heads unless specifically asked for by customers

wait......... you mean AFR's aren't THE end all of heads for the LS1? :secret:

Jeez, who woulda thought?

Can you post the curves, it would be interesting to see the lower RPM portion.

445 whp without a 90/90 and a reasonable cam is great. :)

I'd like to see the curves if you can post the graphs. If not, can you give an idea of what HP/TQ was at like 3k, 4k, 5k, 6k, and 7k? And just to reiterate, these are the ETP 11-degree heads right?

Wouldn't there also be a considerable difference in CR as well, since the ET's have a 58 cc chamber?

Wouldnt the runner sizes make a difference, 205 vs. 215? Not trying to defend, just asking.

Wouldnt the runner sizes make a difference, 205 vs. 215? Not trying to defend, just asking.

I agree, not fair comparrison cause they are not the same size head. Put a milled down AFR 225 against the 215.

The ETP heads really are something special.

So your saying my car could be making 461 with a 224/228 cam-That would be great but I don't think it's possible.

Q since the ET's have a 58 cc chamber?

A Our Heads can be ordered in a smaller chamber size if wanted. This test was "Same compression CC on the heads".


Q Wouldnt the runner sizes make a difference, 205 vs. 215?
Q I agree, not fair comparrison cause they are not the same size head.

A If runner sizes, this small, where to be a huge effect from a 205 to 215, then there would be a trade off for low end torque to upper end horsepower. But a comparison such as this is equal due to that these are both our smaller street heads.

Q Put a milled down AFR 225 against the 215.

A Why not do a ETP 225's to AFR 225's? That is more a equal comparison.

Q since the ET's have a 58 cc chamber?

A Our Heads can be ordered in a smaller chamber size if wanted. This test was "Same compression CC on the heads".


Q Wouldnt the runner sizes make a difference, 205 vs. 215?
Q I agree, not fair comparrison cause they are not the same size head.

A If runner sizes, this small, where to be a huge effect from a 205 to 215, then there would be a trade off for low end torque to upper end horsepower. But a comparison such as this is equal due to that these are both our smaller street heads.

Q Put a milled down AFR 225 against the 215.

A Why not do a ETP 225's to AFR 225's? That is more a equal comparison.

:werd:

Very impressive #'s Craig, I may look into a set of 225's for my 408 in a few months.

One thing a lot of people on here forget is that the ETP heads are an 11 degree design. Due to simple math the ETP design 215's will have less cross sectional area to a 15 degree head with a 215 cc runner. It's really comparing apples to oranges.

The ETP heads are an amazing product and I personally wouldn't reccomend anything but them if the budget is in place.

Plus you get added p-v clearance just from the fact that they are an 11 degree design. A huge benefit for a lot of guys not wanting to flycut.

Nate

I saw a set of ET's 265 heads at LME and they look awesome. Those are what I will be running on my solid roller 408.

One thing a lot of people on here forget is that the ETP heads are an 11 degree design. Due to simple math the ETP design 215's will have less cross sectional area to a 15 degree head with a 215 cc runner. It's really comparing apples to oranges.

The ETP heads are an amazing product and I personally wouldn't reccomend anything but them if the budget is in place.

Plus you get added p-v clearance just from the fact that they are an 11 degree design. A huge benefit for a lot of guys not wanting to flycut.

NateExactly. The cross sectional area is smaller, even on their 225s to a 225 AFR'd head.
Match cross sectional area, oh my!
Its a less than fair comparison, with "numbers" going towards AFR, however the ET heads out performed them.
Please, if at all possible post a graph, I'm guessing that the lower end will be greater too.

Interesting. Id like to see the graph. peak numbers really dont tell the whole story.

Interesting. Id like to see the graph. peak numbers really dont tell the whole story.


:werd:

Exactly. The cross sectional area is smaller, even on their 225s to a 225 AFR'd head.
Match cross sectional area, oh my!
Its a less than fair comparison, with "numbers" going towards AFR, however the ET heads out performed them.
Please, if at all possible post a graph, I'm guessing that the lower end will be greater too.


:judge: I would say so too. The AFR's are great heads, but you have to realize that cross sectional area is the most overlooked topic when it comes to heads. AFR actually has more cross sectional area on 205 cc runner on a 15 degree head than the 215 cc ETP heads.

These ETP heads are just engineered to make power everywhere and that's what they do.

Just want to make sure i'm clear on this. The car had AFR's then they switched to the ET head? Or is this 2 seperate cars with different heads?? And if it was the same car that swapped heads was the car dyno'ed the same day. Or was the car dyno'ed before. Thanks

Interesting. Id like to see the graph. peak numbers really dont tell the whole story.

:werd: area under the curve > peak power. Post the graph

The more I think about this, the more we need more info.

To be 100% accurate in a back to back test like this, you need to isolate all the variables you can.

Was the Dyno done the same day?
Was each package optimized tuning wise?
Same compression?
Same head gaskets?
Valve size?

The jury is still out on these heads so time will tell the true tale.

Please, no bashing, no comments on how ET is better, ect. Lets keep this discussion civil.

Louis

Well said there Louis.

The chambers were the same, and the tune was the same (no change) as they said.

More info is needed for sure, I'd like to see the curves.

The more I think about this, the more we need more info.

To be 100% accurate in a back to back test like this, you need to isolate all the variables you can.

I absolutely agree, but come on!!! The first post starts off...
A friend of mine just did a head swap on his 00 SS camaro.

and ends with

I know A&A Corvette is no longer stocking AFR's anymore and have switched over to ET heads unless specifically asked for by customers

You think he has an agenda??? :eyes: Nothing empirical, or substantial just stirring the pot...

I am all about stirring the pot, it keeps the industry honest, but you gotta give me something to go on... a dyno-graph, a video... something...

:lurk:

Craig@ET stepped in and verified that it was true, or at least it seemed that way when he specified what chamber heads were used in this test.... I guess no one will believe him though. Just remember not to take that blue pill on an empty stomach.

I dont really care to be picked apart regarding the results. It wasnt my car..just a good friend of mine. I didnt say ET's were "Better" than AFR's. Just simple as a car that has always put down a certain rwhp everytime ive dyno tuned it, swapped to another set of heads and made more power (everywhere from down low all the way across). I dont have the dyno sheets handy as he printed out a set for himself.

Used same head gaskets and both heads were in out of the box form using 7.4" comp pushrods. No we didnt check 800 different things, we just swapped heads and retuned. Same compression. It was dynoed on a saturday, then the follow sunday. The temperature was pretty much the same.

Sorry this isnt a big technical results...if you want more through results, do the swap for yourself :)

I dont really care to be picked apart regarding the results. It wasnt my car..just a good friend of mine. I didnt say ET's were "Better" than AFR's. Just simple as a car that has always put down a certain rwhp everytime ive dyno tuned it, swapped to another set of heads and made more power (everywhere from down low all the way across). I dont have the dyno sheets handy as he printed out a set for himself.

Used same head gaskets and both heads were in out of the box form using 7.4" comp pushrods. No we didnt check 800 different things, we just swapped heads and retuned. Same compression. It was dynoed on a saturday, then the follow sunday. The temperature was pretty much the same.

Sorry this isnt a big technical results...if you want more through results, do the swap for yourself :)well thanks for the info reguardless of those on the blue pill's responses ;)

I like your test. They are both out of the box. I am buying the et 240s for my 408. There flow numbers are pretty good and afr dont make an out of the box 240. Just buy which ones you like and let people compare with out making an argument out of it.

Q since the ET's have a 58 cc chamber?

A Our Heads can be ordered in a smaller chamber size if wanted. This test was "Same compression CC on the heads".




Craig,

I am interested in your heads, but when I visited the web site there wasn't a lot of information other than the combustion chambers were 58cc, which I took to mean as that is how they are fabricated and all that is available. Are you stating above that they can be ordered in a 58cc but are available in a stock size (i.e., no change in CR) or that they can be ordered smaller than 58cc? Just want to make sure I understand since I am in the market for heads over the winter.

Thanks

So your saying my car could be making 461 with a 224/228 cam-That would be great but I don't think it's possible.
uggghhhh

uggghhhh


Bro-if it's true and then i'm all over these heads!

Bro-if it's true and then i'm all over these heads!
didnt Tony Mamo make over 475rwhp with the AFR 205s and a 224/228 cam?

But he had a fast 90/90 ported, EWP and LG headers-we need more info on this combo.

But he had a fast 90/90 ported, EWP and LG headers-we need more info on this combo.

I think his highest pull was with the exhaust dumped before the mufflers through electric cut-outs...

:lurk:

So this is how I see it-the Cartek 2X cam is as speced on there web site a 224/228 113-how much advance I don't know.

Anyway I dynoed 440/396 through the factory cats and Stainless works headers.

1) If I added LG headers I should gain 10 horsepower and at least 15 ft/lbs of torque-so were at 450/411

2) then if I add the ported FAST 90 and a 90MM TB we should gain at least 20 horsepower and another 10 ft lbs of torque-so now where at 470/420

3) add the electric water pump and then we have another 6 horsepower and 6 ft /lbs of torque-there you have it 476/426

Probably pretty accurate + or - minus 10 horse

With that all being said if I could gain another 22 horse by going to the ET heads-well then you have 496 rwhp with a tiny 224/228 cam!

Bench racing at its finest but maybe not too far feched-I guess it's all about the combo-I would still like to see the ET graph. The menu for us LSX guys get's tougher and tougher to choose from-that's a good thing!

So this is how I see it-the Cartek 2X cam is as speced on there web site a 224/228 113-how much advance I don't know.

Anyway I dynoed 440/396 through the factory cats and Stainless works headers.

1) If I added LG headers I should gain 10 horsepower and at least 15 ft/lbs of torque-so were at 450/411

2) then if I add the ported FAST 90 and a 90MM TB we should gain at least 20 horsepower and another 10 ft lbs of torque-so now where at 470/420

3) add the electric water pump and then we have another 6 horsepower and 6 ft /lbs of torque-there you have it 476/426

Probably pretty accurate + or - minus 10 horse

With that all being said if I could gain another 22 horse by going to the ET heads-well then you have 496 rwhp with a tiny 224/228 cam!

Bench racing at its finest but maybe not too far feched-I guess it's all about the combo-I would still like to see the ET graph. The menu for us LSX guys get's tougher and tougher to choose from-that's a good thing!

Can we all get off the bench racing band wagon for a second? This is one car out of many. To say that you will get 20 hp from a Fast intake AND 22 hp from the ET heads over your AFR's is probably not going to happen.

The combination is the sum of the parts. When you have a head flowing this well into the low lifts all the way to .650 you will have higher numbers on the dyno and probably wont pick up as much from the FAST with as powerful as the package already is, and most likely not 22 hp all the time over the AFR's.

Some cars could pick up 30 and some could drop 5, it all depends on the setup. With that being said, the ETP heads are going to make a lot of people very happy, and I don't like bench racing.

Nate

Can we all get off the bench racing band wagon for a second? This is one car out of many. To say that you will get 20 hp from a Fast intake AND 22 hp from the ET heads over your AFR's is probably not going to happen. NateGetting 20 rwhp gain from a PORTED FAST 90/90 is a piece of cake. Notice Vortech said ported. FWIW, I picked up 27 rwhp running a much milder setup with my ported FAST 90/90. His figures are accurate, bench racing or not.
http://guerragroup.com/2000TA_CheaTR_FAST_dyno.jpg

Guys...

A quick hello here.

The initial results from a few ET head installs certainly look promising. There CNC work looks very good and lets not forget they have the advantage of a much shallower valve angle and a raised exhaust port which always enhances airflow and ultimately power output. Is the ET 215 really worth 20 HP over an AFR 205 nine times out of ten??....Anybody's guess and the bottom line is we will have to wait and see as more results make it to this website and others. I take my hat off to ET as the product certainly looks good and the results promising, but I think we need to see more of both to determine what the gains (or losses) will stack up to over the long haul. I would still choose a 205 for a street/strip car that wanted to place an emphasis on the "street side" of that equation, as the smaller port is still going to get the nod for part throttle and fuel economy, and we all know the proven power potential even with smaller cams and the right AFR 205 set-up.

Don't forget that AFR set their sites on building an emissions legal direct replacement performance head (all geometry exactly like stock), and within those parameters we have certainly hit a homerun. Are we sitting on our hands now that project is almost complete (awaiting the release of the small chamber 225)?? I will leave that to your imagination...Don't throw away all your "blue pills" just yet.... :jest:

Competition is a good thing and technology marches on....Exciting times for sure.

Tony M.

No matter how well the heads flow, your only as good as your weakest point. If the point is the intake than no matter how much the heads flow your going to hit a brick wall. IMO ET/AFR/TFS heads will perform the best when everything has been address from getting the air in and out as efficiently as possible. You need to look at everything from the air filter to the mufflers. Thats what we did on my current build, address anything that could be a flow inhibitor.
Phil

Wait a minute......Cary and Craig, the ET heads have an 11 degree valve angle and STOCK length pushrods?? What length is the intake valve??

Stock length intake valve, stock length pushrod and 11 degree valve angle don't add up.

I think they use 8.250 and 8.150 pushrods.
Phil

Q since the ET's have a 58 cc chamber?

A Our Heads can be ordered in a smaller chamber size if wanted. This test was "Same compression CC on the heads".


Q Wouldnt the runner sizes make a difference, 205 vs. 215?
Q I agree, not fair comparrison cause they are not the same size head.

A If runner sizes, this small, where to be a huge effect from a 205 to 215, then there would be a trade off for low end torque to upper end horsepower. But a comparison such as this is equal due to that these are both our smaller street heads.

Q Put a milled down AFR 225 against the 215.

A Why not do a ETP 225's to AFR 225's? That is more a equal comparison.
wow, talk about a down to earth guy :)

great comments

Getting 20 rwhp gain from a PORTED FAST 90/90 is a piece of cake. Notice Vortech said ported. FWIW, I picked up 27 rwhp running a much milder setup with my ported FAST 90/90. His figures are accurate, bench racing or not.
http://guerragroup.com/2000TA_CheaTR_FAST_dyno.jpg


Curious as to the drop at about 6,500 RPM?

Wait a minute......Cary and Craig, the ET heads have an 11 degree valve angle and STOCK length pushrods?? What length is the intake valve??

Stock length intake valve, stock length pushrod and 11 degree valve angle don't add up.

Brian, the ET heads have a 5.450" valve I believe.

STOCK length pushrods?? What length is the intake valve??
Stock length intake valve, stock length pushrod and 11 degree valve angle don't add up.


Nope, The valves are 5.450 long and do require a longer pushrod. Most I have seen and the ones we have done here come to 8.050" to 8.200"


Don't throw away all your "blue pills" just yet

Hey Tony, what is up with the Blue pill? I hope it isn't what I am thinking it is. Thanks for the good word out our heads.

How much longer will the pushrod need to be? Will you be offering those as well?

Now that you got my attention on that, I called to check, he measured with a pushrod length checker and did get some different length pushrods at the local Powerhouse....

Whats the standard pushrod length for these 11 deg heads?

8.050 pushrods should work well.

Nate

Pushrods will fall between 8.050" and 8.200" long. We do offer them in 5/16 .080 in various lengths and sizes.

I absolutely agree, but come on!!! The first post starts off...


and ends with



You think he has an agenda??? :eyes: Nothing empirical, or substantial just stirring the pot...

I am all about stirring the pot, it keeps the industry honest, but you gotta give me something to go on... a dyno-graph, a video... something...

:lurk:

hmmm. You think... Product cycle...recycle your dollars at your expense. My LQ9's are working just fine and the work fine Doug at ECS at 1,200rwhp. What ever we can take off the shelf, with no work, to take more dollars. Psst, by the way all other heads suck.

However, a, "good hand ported head," will easily outflow an AFR 205.
In this VTEspeed is correct.

The ET Perfomance head bears watching. There are many dealers.

So do many others Patriot, Cartek, Synergy, Trick Flow, TEA, C5R/LS7, World, hmm.

However, a, "good hand ported head," will easily outflow an AFR 205.




With CNC ported heads, the results are almost guaranteed and consistent, which is not the case with hand ported heads.

With CNC ported heads, the results are almost guaranteed and consistent, which is not the case with hand ported heads.

Yes, this is generic reply and but does have some good merit with some head builders, just not ones we use.

We find the deviation between one delta from set to another set from the same maker's we use to be less than 1%.

seems a little fishy....this being a compression ratio correct swap as stated by Craig@ET means that these were pretty heavily milled AFR's....would that cam still clear?

Then VTESPEED states that both were using the EXACT same 7.4 pushords...shortly later Craig@ET say they are usually 8.05-8.2"....right after VTESPEED says that they used different lengths, retracting his previous statement. As for the AFR pushrod length being 7.4....with a head that heavily milled (To be equal cc for compression) I doubt that would be the correct length, allot of guys use those on un-milled heads.

It is also stated that there was no change in the tune....why not? all this work and no tune? normally if you change one of the biggest factors in breathing characteristics you need to change how the car uses it, Right? Especially an additional 22rwhp worth.

I am not knocking the ET's, they are impressive and innovative....but no matter who you are you have to admit some descrepencies in the testing, matched with the in-ability to post a graph sort of cast's doubt on the REAL gains seen.

I dont really care who thinks the comparison is correct or not. I made it very clear that I retuned the car after the swap and obviously you didnt read all of it. I retuned the car before and after. The customer has the dyno graphs of before/after and it wasnt my shop that we did the dyno work at, so i do not have access to the dyno sheets. The swap wasnt done to be a dyno racer and run onto Ls1tech to go "oooh oooh look at what I did". This was a head swap that was done for our own personal interest and I posted the results off half for those who care. If you dont like what you see, dont read the post.

How about you guys go do the swap for yourself and come up with some results of your own and quit complaining about my results.


<That is all, I wont be replying again>

damn, some people just cant take shit for what its worth. everyone is always asking...how do these heads compare to xxx....this man gave you a real life comparison of an actual "back to back" swap and posts. thats how the average joe with the time and cash would do it. JMHO.

I actually prefer seeing the real world testing, but I think it is hard to call something that has this many variables "Back to back"....

I dont really care to be picked apart regarding the results. It wasnt my car..just a good friend of mine. I didnt say ET's were "Better" than AFR's. Just simple as a car that has always put down a certain rwhp everytime ive dyno tuned it, swapped to another set of heads and made more power (everywhere from down low all the way across). I dont have the dyno sheets handy as he printed out a set for himself.

Used same head gaskets and both heads were in out of the box form using 7.4" comp pushrods. No we didnt check 800 different things, we just swapped heads and retuned. Same compression. It was dynoed on a saturday, then the follow sunday. The temperature was pretty much the same.

Sorry this isnt a big technical results...if you want more through results, do the swap for yourself :)

Aren't AFR 205's 66cc "OUT OF BOX" ??????

Guys...

A quick hello here.

The initial results from a few ET head installs certainly look promising. There CNC work looks very good and lets not forget they have the advantage of a much shallower valve angle and a raised exhaust port which always enhances airflow and ultimately power output. Is the ET 215 really worth 20 HP over an AFR 205 nine times out of ten??....Anybody's guess and the bottom line is we will have to wait and see as more results make it to this website and others. I take my hat off to ET as the product certainly looks good and the results promising, but I think we need to see more of both to determine what the gains (or losses) will stack up to over the long haul. I would still choose a 205 for a street/strip car that wanted to place an emphasis on the "street side" of that equation, as the smaller port is still going to get the nod for part throttle and fuel economy, and we all know the proven power potential even with smaller cams and the right AFR 205 set-up.

Don't forget that AFR set their sites on building an emissions legal direct replacement performance head (all geometry exactly like stock), and within those parameters we have certainly hit a homerun. Are we sitting on our hands now that project is almost complete (awaiting the release of the small chamber 225)?? I will leave that to your imagination...Don't throw away all your "blue pills" just yet.... :jest:

Competition is a good thing and technology marches on....Exciting times for sure.

Tony M.

That's one thing the AFR's definately have going for them. The CARB # is why I will be buying the AFR's and not the ET's.

That's one thing the AFR's definately have going for them. The CARB # is why I will be buying the AFR's and not the ET's.

I don't exactly know what that means. What are the benefits of AFR's CARB #?

CARB (California Air Resources Board). It means that they will pass emissions.

I ordered a pair of 245`s for my 408. Love the look and the results so far. Mine is mostly street so I`m not worried about racing at the track. G-Force loves them, and I trust these guys bigtime. Will let you know this week the flow numbers and dyno numbers. Then everyone can bitch and say there not true. What, I WILL post my dyno graph and flow sheet so everyone will see. Talk next week!

I ordered a pair of 245`s for my 408. Love the look and the results so far. Mine is mostly street so I`m not worried about racing at the track. G-Force loves them, and I trust these guys bigtime. Will let you know this week the flow numbers and dyno numbers. Then everyone can bitch and say there not true. What, I WILL post my dyno graph and flow sheet so everyone will see. Talk next week!

Interesting man looking forward for that moment :devil:

peace

I plan on talking to tony and others tomarrow about the heads
Mike:bang:

Does anyone actually give a mere glimpse of the date stamped on these threads they search for?!?!?!?!

Good job dude. You just brought a thread back to life that is 3 years old ;)

LOL everyone always says use the search! . i guess the search is working

I'm gonna go ahead and shut this down. No need in opening up a can of worms that is 3 yrs old.